More #Twaddell: DUP, dupes and duplicity.

The onus is now upon nationalism to show leadership and to respond positively to this genuine attempt to reach accommodation. They must face down the elements in their community who wish to drag Northern Ireland back.

So says DUP ‘leader’ Peter Robinson, but presumably not in reference to his party members who were advocating burning tricolours, defacing religious statues, indulging in murder fantasies, okay with assaults on the mayor or happy to be seen at UVF parades. Robinson was actually trying to take the lead in what the Orange Order are calling the Twaddell Initiative, an offer to hold talks with residents regarding future parades, but only if they (they being the bands and lodges that sang the Famine Song at Twaddell and rioted etc) are allowed to parade the contentious section of the route first (what would normally be called a precondition). So, not really so much of an initiative, more just a continuation of what they are doing with the hope of being rewarding for not observing the Parades Commission determination regarding the return parade.

Nigel Dodds, the North Belfast MP who sustained a head injury from a brick thrown by a loyalist protestor at Twaddell, for some reason imagines that:

The proposal takes into account the views put forward by nationalists and republicans many times concerning parades on the Crumlin Road.  It is to be hoped therefore that this sincere and genuine initiative will be met by a demonstration of tolerance which will greatly improve inter-community relations in North Belfast.

And, just in case the Parades Commission don’t play along, he includes a guarded plea to the NIO and PSNI to roll out the ‘operational reasons’ trick card to force a parade through.

I urge the Secretary of State and the Chief Constable to use their full influence to ensure that this opportunity of resolving the current dispute about shared space on the Crumlin Road is not squandered.

Unsurprisingly, other unionists have welcomed the ‘Twaddell Initiative’. Mike Nesbitt has given his own take on yet another Unionist request to talks with preconditions.

The guarantee that dialogue for 2014 will follow immediately should residents endorse the resolution of this 2013 impasse is interesting and challenges the traditional narrative of unionist intransigence.

Meanwhile, PUP leader Billy Hutchinson has also strongly welcomed the announcement of the “Twaddell Initiative”

I hope that this initiative, which sets the context for proactive engagement, is received with the same positive intent and purpose as it was made.

Needless to say, no-one in Ardoyne appears remotely impressed. UTV are reporting North Belfast MLA Gerry Kelly as saying:

The announcement by the Orange Order and unionist parties does not amount to an initiative. The setting of a precondition, that a parade past Ardoyne, Mountainview and the Dales, must take place before dialogue can commence, is not the way to progress this situation.

The Parades Commission will immediately note that, in it’s own determination this summer, section 9 points out that, despite assurances from the Unionists that they would engage in dialogue last year, this did not occur until six days before the July 2013 parade. The 2013 determination also included a ‘route map’ to resolve this issue, with section 11 noting that (a) the return parade would be restricted in 2013, (b) it would facilitate mediation from September 2013 onwards to resolve issues in advance of the 2014 parade and (c) it would look favourably upon the return parade in 2014 if these conditions were met.

So, more nonsense about parades coming up, less focus on social deprivation, joblessness, food poverty, educational disadvantage or any of the other issues that those protesting at Ardoyne should be more concerned about.

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  • between the bridges

    Someone’s a tad tetchy today! Anyway it might offer a solution to the current impasse, and i wonder has there been a deal done. The PSNI want an end to the twaddle protests (as do the OO) and a 9am parade would probably attract less CNR protests than an evening one. One-upmanship would mean there would be a concerted effort to keep any protests peaceful. The PC can save face by imposing strict restrictions and we can all sleep tight in bed knowing he who haass walked on water will solve it all, until the next time…

  • redstar2011

    Havent read such nonsense in a long time.

    Te OO/UVF have always wanted to walk before they talk- their proposal, walk before they talk!!!!!

  • MrPMartin

    What a load of twaddell

  • FDM

    I would answer this one by laughing down the phone.

    Haass should suggest a referendum on parading to the people of this region.

    Lets have the dog wagging the tail for once here.

    If the people vote for no more sectarian coat trailing then there we have it. Bonfires same treatment.

    Goodbye OO and goodbye to the place being destroyed every year by the same mob.

    How many hundreds of millions of pounds would we save every year if the OO and their fellow organisations didn’t exist?

    Sick to the back teeth of a tiny percentage of the population holding back progress.

  • FDM. Robinson’s predictable acceptance on trust of the OO’s bona fides is brazen when he knows the reason Drumcree is done and dusted is the breach of trust by his former leader and Trimble doing their party jig, after they were allowed walk garvaghy Rd following talks. Now they want to march on Saturday, which it will not have escaped their notice or the DUPs is the fifth of October. So they are comparing their alleged denial of civil rights with those they sought to deny on that date in 1968? Rich indeed, from that source.

  • between the bridges

    FDM it’s good to see you back from your leave of absence, re tail wagging dogs a tiny percentage of parades are controversial…

    danielsm… playing the other sides card has long been a part of the game

  • FDM

    between the bridges 30 September 2013 at 1:58 pm

    “a tiny percentage of parades are controversial…”

    For me they are all controversial. I don’t even like republican ones and I am a republican.

    I don’t see anything positive from these parades or bonfires whatsoever.

    You will see my point is unequivocable.

    Ban the lot of them and lets move on.

    Referendum please Mr. Haass.

  • between the bridges

    FDM ‘You will see my point is unequivocable.’ strangely enough all i see is someone with a different point of view to my own…

  • JR

    Some initative, I could imagine what loyalists would say to a residents initative “forget about marching home this year and we will chat about next year”

  • sherdy

    Aren’t the PUL so lucky in having such wonderful political leadership? Not a brain between them!

  • megatron

    Thanks for the idea loyalists I am heading into my boss now.

    Going to demand he give me a €25K pay rise now and I promise to talk about my performance in 2014.

    I am sure he will find it a promising initiative.

  • FDM

    een the bridges 30 September 2013 at 2:17 pm

    “with a different point of view to my own…”

    My way saves us hundreds of millions in policing/repair/clean-up/judicial costs EVERY year and an unquantifiable benefit to our shared society by lancing the boil that is marching/bonfires etc…

    Open to an alternate approach which can deliver the same or better results for us all, which is as balanced as my approach.

  • Sp12

    Coughing up a death rattle sure does impress Unionist politicians these days.

  • between the bridges

    FDM as your ‘balanced approach’ is a totalitarian ban you can hardly claim to be open to suggestions…

  • FDM[2.07] The reason the OO needs all those thousands of marches is so they can say the core ones[where the conduct of bandsmen caused them to be stopped for good], are those they regard as red line instances, and then misrepresent them as a controversial and small minority.So essentially the ‘controversial ones are the defining ‘Orange culture’ They’ve surrendered most of the core ones already so the game is already lost to them.

  • FDM

    between the bridges 30 September 2013 at 2:46 pm

    FDM as your ‘balanced approach’ is a totalitarian ban you can hardly claim to be open to suggestions…

    ————————-

    Rather than being totalitarian I am asking for it to be put to the vote of the people. That is called democracy. Fascism [the most virulent form of totalitarianim] doesn’t ask the people, it does “the telling”. Here we would be asking the people to vote on whether or not they the majority want to allow a tiny minority to continue to drag us back to the bad old days. The reason why Orangeism is worried about a referendum on this is because they know they would lose, badly. Why? Because a massive amount of pro-union peolpe would join with a similarly huge amount of nationalists in putting a line through sectarian marches and bonfires.

    I would not be removing their right to assemble. They can have whatever field they like and march around it all day long, all year long. However I would remove their “rights” to:

    1. pick at the festering boil of sectarianism every year and hence store the puss for another generation. No space for healing, just pick after pick after pick.
    2. cause mayhem and violence on the streets.
    3. cause £100’s of millions of pounds of damage [policing/justice/cleaning/repair] to an economy already on its knees.
    4. cause insult, distress and inconvenience to the everyday normal operation of the region on the roads and in the civic and city centres.

    I don’t think you will get a lot of sympathy equating the democratic will of the people and totalitarianism. I don’t think Mr. Haass from the US administration would give you a lot of air time on that one.

    Walk in my shoes for a minute and persuade me about the positive outcomes for ME of Orangeism, the OO, bonfires and marching?

  • between the bridges

    danielsm…’controversial ones are the defining ‘Orange culture’… indeed but who is doing the defining, how many of the thousands of non controversial parades do you hear about? as for the rest you merely disp[lay a complete lack of knowledge on the subject, a ‘core’ parade for a lodge (the core unit of the OO) would be it’s own church parade and local 12th…

  • between the bridges

    FDM walk in my marching boots and see none of your list… and do tell are st paddy’s day and gay pride also on your proscribed list…

  • Paulk

    So……. if i’ve got this right the OO has proposed to be allowed to walk up the road first before talking to residents groups, with a promise of dialogue afterwards….where is the new proposal exactly? Oh with the difference being they’ll walk up in the morning not the evening. Predictably the unionist political types come out like nodding dogs and have thrown their weight behind the “initiative” which really contains nothing new whatsoever, save a different time for the march. If i were the residents i’d counter propose that the OO don’t walk back this year, talk to the residents reach a compromise for next year and move on, after all it’ll be awful cold soon and the dark nights are upon us already the camp won’t be too much fun in the snow and rain!

  • FDM

    between the bridges 30 September 2013 at 3:21 pm

    FDM walk in my marching boots and see none of your list… and do tell are st paddy’s day and gay pride also on your proscribed list…

    ————————-

    St. Patrick is a Christian saint, belonging to all who call themselves that on the island and beyond. They get to have a parade. I have yet to see Bishop McKeown types standing on police vans, bottles of WKD in hand, screaming “come on then, lets ‘ave ya!” at policemen. That would be a sight to see.

    LGBT are similarly not sectarian. So they get to walk too since you may be any religion or none and be LGBT. I have yet to witness an LGBT riot. I am sure it would be a sight to see.

    The problem you have is that the Orange have hundreds of years of history of disturbing this society. Hence you are now reaping what you have sown. You have read this somewhere, no?

    Still waiting on that list of positives for me, the nationalist community and the pro-union people who couldn’t see you far enough. You know about 80-85% of the population. What is in it for us?

  • between the bridges

    So FDM your balanced approach is to ban all (selective) parades… I attend two parades on st paddies day i watch one and take part in the other which would you ban..

  • FDM

    between the bridges 30 September 2013 at 3:47 pm

    So FDM your balanced approach is to ban all (selective) parades… I attend two parades on st paddies day i watch one and take part in the other which would you ban..
    —————————-

    The sectarian parades are easily identified, so that would be simple. Once given the details of the parade who is taking part, quite easy to decide.

    3rd time of asking:
    Still waiting on that list of positives for me, the nationalist community and the pro-union people who couldn’t see you far enough. You know about 80-85% of the population. What is in it for us?

  • Morpheus

    “Still waiting on that list of positives for me, the nationalist community and the pro-union people who couldn’t see you far enough. “

    They get the privilege of being reminded that they are second class citizens in their own country.

  • between the bridges

    FDM ‘The sectarian parades are easily identified, so that would be simple. Once given the details of the parade who is taking part, quite easy to decide.’ I already gave you the details surely the fact i was taking part is enough to ban it?

    Given that the tourism minister assures us that 500k attend the 12th your 85% figure is obviously plucked from the air. As for the benefits of Europes largest social art’s movement they are too numerous to list. Even if i was predisposed to justify it to yourself who has no interest in anything but your own narrow minded sorry i mean balanced view…However i was chatting a number of CNR’s at a parade on Friday night most of them viewed it as a night out…

  • OscarWhiskey

    Here’s my £0.02 solution to the current issues:

    Use the Maze site for a unified stadium (in the style of the Rally Grounds at Nuremburg) and then use this as the location for every parade.

    Development of the site (job creation and an opportunity for Stormont to mismanage another public project,) good transport links, no disruption to traffic during parades, neutral shared space, no contentious parades, and minimal policing overhead. We could even incorporate the building that was meant to be the Peace Centre.

  • FDM

    between the bridges 30 September 2013 at 4:08 pm

    FDM ‘The sectarian parades are easily identified, so that would be simple. Once given the details of the parade who is taking part, quite easy to decide.’ I already gave you the details surely the fact i was taking part is enough to ban it?

    I think the detail on the forms we have at the minute would be enough to ban such parades.

    “Given that the tourism minister assures us that 500k attend the 12th”

    Those figures have already been debated and have been shown to be false. If you are confident of that number then surely you would be self-assured of a majority vote in a referendum on marching?

    “As for the benefits of Europes largest social art’s movement.”

    You can of course evidence that. Off the top of my head I can think of many other cultural streams in Europe that could top the OO membership. Irish dancing for one.

    “However i was chatting a number of CNR’s at a parade on Friday night most of them viewed it as a night out…”

    I am sure they were glad of the overtime as long as the event stayed peaceful.

    The point is the OO cost this society millions of pounds every year. A cost we simply cannot bear. The detrimental effect you have on the progression of the society from war to peace is enormous. The OO is a cancer, a cancer and it must be cut from the body of this region so it may heal. Look upon it as another form of decommissioning. This sectarian army just is not needed or welcome anymore. It is the second decade of the 3rd millenium and OO 17th century ideologies are as welcome now as small-pox and just as relevant.

  • between the bridges

    FDM you have gone from banning all parades to banning those you select and hundreds of millions has become millions…

    ”I am sure they were glad of the overtime” heh! well one of them would claim the average industry expense account, but others would be regulars at parades…

  • FDM

    between the bridges 30 September 2013 at 4:45 pm

    “FDM you have gone from banning all parades to banning those you select and hundreds of millions has become millions…”

    This year it is hundreds of millions. The cost of policing Twaddell for a year will be somewhere between £20 and £40 million pounds. The cost daily is 50k. Thats £18million alone. Never mind all the riots, weekend protests yadda, yadda, yadda.

    I personally would confiscate every OO hall and land to recoup the money lost to the economy. Selling it off lock stock to the highest bidder [even Republicans Peter 😉 ]

    I actually think we are closer to that than you may think. A lot of people in this region, the overwhelming majority, are sick to the back teeth of the OO. They offer us grim yesterday when the greater majority of us want a bright tomorrow.

    Time to march off to the sunset me thinks. Nice knowing you. Bye.

  • between the bridges

    FDM…’I personally would confiscate every OO hall and land… I actually think we are closer to that than you may think’….lmfao moithunks not! but anyway being so well balanced you would do the same to SF as repayment for previous years costs to society…’bye’ are you going on another leave of absence?

  • FDM

    between the bridges 30 September 2013 at 5:04 pm

    “lmfao moithunks not! ”

    That may prove to be a tad naïve. You realise that policing costs are borne by football clubs in England. They use a bond system as well I understand to ensure that in the event of any significant cost/time/trouble the police can censure the club using the bonded funds.

    So a new future for OO marching may be that in order to “walk the Queen’s” they must pay for policing and submit a cash bond. In the event of trouble the bond may be forfeit. Since the only real money in the OO is in its building and land, you can see what happens next.

    I would of thought even under current legislation that the OO could be held vicariously liable for the criminal actions of its members. Breaches of Parades Commission determinations are criminal acts under law. Not civil disobedience. They can therefore be subject to criminal sanction imprisonment/fines or indeed can be sued under civil law to remedy the situation caused by their criminality. Anyone can make a complaint to the police and anyone can sue under civil. Just as well the OO have no enemies then…

    What you don’t get BTB is that we are not far off that territory at all. All it will take is for the overwhelming majority of law abiding citizens in this region to say “enough is enough” and off come the legal gloves.

    I would love the OO to keep pushing. I would rather see their early proscription and rapid demise than the elongated death throes they are visibly going through at the minute. I mean 18th century mono-religious-fundamentalism is so hip in the secular 3rd millennium. Old eejits with a terrible history, vacant present and no future.

  • between the bridges

    FDM, i am sure there are other sites you can discuss your wet dreams on…

  • FDM

    between the bridges 30 September 2013 at 8:15 pm

    FDM, i am sure there are other sites you can discuss your wet dreams on…

    ——————

    The politico’s and their minions read this site.

    Just throwing some ideas out there for someone to pick up the ball and run with.

    Hopefully one or all will be dropping onto OO hall carpets through the letterbox sometime soon.

    Just think of all the useful purposes wider society can put those halls and pieces of land to.

  • Reader

    danielsmoran: is the breach of trust by his former leader and Trimble doing their party jig, after they were allowed walk garvaghy Rd following talks.
    Paisley and Trimble were not allowed to walk the Garvaghy Road; and Paisley and Trimble did not walk the Garvaghy Road.
    I hope you haven’t been annoyed about it these last 18 years.

  • Comrade Stalin

    What a waste of time. Parades are not going to be banned and there is never going to be a referendum on the issue. A deal will have to be made proposing compromises which people will then have to stick to.

  • FDM

    Comrade Stalin 30 September 2013 at 11:44 pm

    “Parades are not going to be banned and there is never going to be a referendum on the issue.”

    Why not CS? Are you not of the opinion that the greater majority of the people in the region are wholly opposed to sectarian parades? If so why are we pandering to a tiny minority of the population? If APNI had some cohones they should be taking these people on. Its not like they are likely to get many votes from their corner. Or are you afraid of more offices going up in flames? It is called having a backbone.

    It is not as if the OO have a benign influence on our society. Gay pride is one day a year and I don’t see them standing aggressively waving rubber sex toys at police whilst standing on Landrovers. Similarly I don’t see green cassock clad leprchauns beating policemen with St. Patrick’s crosiers in Royal Avenue on St. Pats. See the difference?

    It is naive in my opinion to use the word never in politics. Necessity is the catalyst of political movement. The OO must be put in their box once and for all. Their days of dictating to the rest of us are over. The cost, time and trouble [CTT] they cause us all is simply too high a price to pay. Furthermore they represent a serious and long term RISK to our peace and this is even more worrying than the CTT they have already caused.

    “A deal will have to be made proposing compromises which people will then have to stick to.”

    Which is why I offered the alternate of the OO paying for policing of their parades and the submission of bonds as an alternative. If its good enough for football matches it is good enough when they want to coat trail in places they are not welcome.

    Aren’t you sick of these people dragging us back to the 18th century week after week?

    These are the conversations we need to have. The risks are so great that as far as I am concerned EVERY option is on the table. Such is the destabilising influence that the OO have on our collective peace. If APNI had a bit of gumption about it, it should be leading this debate, rather than making like wallpaper and hoping you might pick up the odd OO voter here and there.

  • cynic2

    “The onus is now upon nationalism to show leadership and to respond positively to this genuine attempt to reach accommodation. They must face down the elements in their community who wish to drag Northern Ireland back.”

    Nice bit of sectarian politics by Peter The Prod as he the DUP and UUP parade alongside scum, murderers and drug dealers from the UVF in North Belfast

    Thats why we don’t vote for you guys. The scum you are tying to appeal to don’t vote at all,. so this is a pointless coat trailing exercise

  • Comrade Stalin

    FDM,

    No, leadership is taking difficult and balanced decisions. Banning all parades is not only unnecessary (99% of parades are peaceful and uncontroversial) but amounts to a significant restriction on the rights of free speech and assembly for everyone, not just Orangemen. It is a ridiculous proposal.

  • Mc Slaggart

    To all who keep up the lie that “99% of parades are peaceful and uncontroversial”.

    People being tolerant does not mean that a parade that is taking place is not uncontroversial.

    For example the Republican parade in Castlederg was controversial. I would say nearly every other parade this year in Castlederg was also controversial.

  • FDM

    Comrade Stalin 1 October 2013 at 8:42 pm

    “99% of parades are peaceful and uncontroversial”

    That my friend is complete and utter horse manure. Please evidence the second word “uncontroversial” 99% of the times without pulling contortions likely to harm a 14 year old Nadia Comaneci?

    “a significant restriction on the rights of free speech and assembly for everyone”

    Do they not assemble in fields without controversy? Do they not have all day to spew their religio-political bile ALL DAY to each other at said assembly points, unmolested? Do they not have their own halls to do the same every night of the week? Do they not get to set their own areas on fire every year, including local homes, with the usual simulated lynching and paramilitary announcement to the masses before they set the torch aglow?

    So they have the right to assembly AND the right to free speech.

    It is clear that APNI and you are pandering to extreme elements because APNI neither have the spine to make a stance nor any idea what democracy actually costs.

    I think APNI have some abstract concept of equal rights that has actually been won and paid for by other people but which they get to lecture other people about.

    One thing ridiculous in this ineffectual democracy is APNI trying to take any moral high ground in attaining it!

    I keep asking for this list of people from APNI who “bled for the cause”, but seeming they only got a knighthood/lordship and a well paying job on a quango?

    Nothing much to look at in the mirror there.

  • Comrade Stalin

    FDM,

    I am quoting Sinn Féin’s policy. If you have an issue with it you should take it up with them.

  • FDM

    Comrade Stalin 1 October 2013 at 11:07 pm

    “I am quoting Sinn Féin’s policy. If you have an issue with it you should take it up with them.”

    I don’t represent Sinn Fein. Not a member. Not an elected representative of theirs.

    I presume neither are you. Hence why would Sinn Fein policy on this affect my own and yours and APNI’s point of view?

    1. Proscribing the OO would not be a waste of time.

    2. Neither would banning all sectarian parades be a waste of time.

    3. Neither would introducing law to make the organisers of such parades pay for policing and other resources [like the fire service ahem.] and the useless of bonds.

    The greater majority of the people in the region I would venture would support all of the above. Why? Because they want to live in peace. They want to be able to drive around their roads and cities without having to stop for hours for the coat trailers, or sit in a traffic jam caused by the closing of the roads. They don’t want to be intimidated on said roads, or in their cars, or penned in their houses or at their church services. They don’t want to be sitting in a bar near Royal Avenue only for it to be rampaged through by OO/loyalist gangsters. They don’t want to pay millions for the policing/fire/rescue/ambulance services after another of their peaceful rioting sessions. They don’t want the town centres turned into a bully-boy drink-festivals where the streets become littered with the detritus of anarchy.

    If those items listed above [1-3] are not agenda items at the Haass talks then all of us should be asking “our” parties why they are not on the table?

    I wonder even as a straw poll if we could have a thread devoted to supporting/opposing those three options above? Or indeed any other possible “resolutions” that people think fit. With some sort of vote by sluggerophones/sluggerettes upon it.

    The politicos read these threads. People in this region are sick of the OO and their shennanigans. Putting a line through the OO would have very positive outcomes for this region in the medium to long term. Sure they will go mad initially. But hey that is what they are doing now anyway! More jobs for policemen, the legal profession and the jails. More coat trailing neanderthals off the street. After a period of time they will get the message.

    Time the tail got wagged by the dog.

  • FDM

    *issue of bonds.

  • The Orange Order is a sick senile dinosaur of an anachronistic and anarchistic and narcissistic chauvinist organisation, way past its sell by date and therefore quite naturally thoroughly rotten to its very rancid core?

    Put it out of its misery, is the kind and compassionate and politically correct and humanitarian thing to do?

  • Re … 2 October 2013 at 9:04 am

    Two uncomfortable and inconvenient questions which have every firm base in implausibly deniable historical fact and pulp fiction?

    And why drag a rotten violent and conflict ridden past into thoughts and talks and walks into the future?

    FFS wise up ya buck eejits.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    FDM

    I certainly won’t say that your points don’t hold water.

    Far from it, in fact I was particularly struck by your highlighting of the likelihood that various movers and shakers in all probability read this site.

    So, taking on board your points and considering that most people would like to see some sort of settlement regarding carnival season (though not necessarily banning them outright, but who knows, you may well be right there) could we not use your arguments and the final objective of the peaceful summers to form a case for integrating schools?

    I’m speaking only from experience here and many people may have experiences to the contrary, BUT:

    How about choking the extreme elements of the bands off at the ‘source’, I’d be very surprised to learn that most of the flegtards, rioters or general hibernophobes went to mixed schools (aside from Willie Frazer, I think he went to a Catholic school to boot).

    Do you think they spend much time mixing with ‘the other sort’?

    Do you think recruitment for a band would be influenced in any way when a band member’s son has to mix with people that he would potentially sing about killing (or at least being coincidentally up to his knees in their blood):

    “Dad, you sung about killin’ fenians, yet my mate Martin is fenian…”

    That’s an exaggerated example aimed at the worst sort of the bands but you get the point (I hope)

    Would it be just as easy to look upon a GAA hall as a hub of Republican chicanery when your mates in class are in fact quite fond of GAA Sports?
    As is that girl who sits in the front row of English class, she’s all right actually…

    Anyway.

    From my own experience, one feels a tad less ‘triumphant’/confident when marching in an area where on may not be welcomed when attired in fleggery et al when one knows the names of the people living in the houses of said areas as opposed to them being anonymous fenians.

    You remark (rightly) about the cost to the public purse regarding the policing of all these parades, could the same argument not be applied for the expense of segregated education? Small villages having to have 2 small separate schools instead of one ‘normal’ sized school?

    Or even the expense and waste of time of having to close one of the schools and transport those kids to another town down the road because the remaining school in the village doesn’t normally cater for ‘that sort’?

    You want peaceful summers and for public money not to be wasted, well, if you’re going to suggest something that’ll cause expensive mayhem (“Sure they will go mad initially”) and shake society for a few years till they ‘get over it’ then surely mixing the schools is as good a place to start as any?

    Especially as they want do away with Grammar schools anyway, that would be a logical starting point, opening mixed schools on their graves?

    I accept that it won’t fix everything but surely it has the potential to reduce a lot of friction?

    Also, I’d love to see papers and reports from Psychiatrists, psychologists and paedologists or pedagogists (?) that state categorically that mixing the schools is a BAD idea.

  • FDM

    Am Ghobsmacht 2 October 2013 at 10:54 am

    Thank you for that contribution.

    Integrated education. It is not a magic bullet.

    One of the most prominent early fleggers [beautiful blonde Becky of the exotic East] was the product of an integrated education. Didn’t seem to dent her deep resentment of themmuns one little bit.

    I know Robbo and the DUP were pumping integrated education as a means of producing an army of Rory McIlroys to save the union. All part of the DUP’s very successful outreach [presumably to grab by throat] program to Catholics.

    The problem is there is a deep distrust from my corner of the world for unionist/unionist-lite/pro-union types meddling in the education of Catholics. This goes back hundreds of years, all the way to the hedge schools. Catholic education was obviously made illegal for a 60 year period in the 18th century under the penal laws. The Education Act 1923, post partition seriously and detrimentally affected the capital funding of the Catholic schools. This effectively created an intra-state partitition of the government controlled schools and those in the CCMS setting. Knowing the way the state evolved thank the Lord that CCMS hung in there.

    I went to a Catholic boys primary school and grammar school in Belfast. I studied at two local Universities and one in England. In the later learning experiences I obviously mixed with people of many different religions, faiths, colours etc… A very positive experience it was, which has continued on through my career mixing with the different people of the world. I have ardent political beliefs but I don’t care what religion people are. I literally don’t give a monkeys.

    Given the virulent remnants of religious bias and machinations that are obvious to see in current politics in this region I think it is an inappropriate time to be talking [enforcing ?] an integrated education upon all. In short I think it fair comment to say in response to the DUP campaign for shared education that “I distrust your motives”. They were not interested enough to fund it equally when the state was fully under unionist control, so what has changed? The census numbers obviously. They clearly have selfish political motives for education change that are not necessarily in the best interests of the whole society. They believe this step suits their purposes. I believe there are some, like yourself, who actually want to go this way for the best of reasons.

    The CCMS system is one of the reasons why we have a very well educated Catholic community in this region. They acted as a bastion in my opinion which enabled the community to bring an equality argument to the houses of power and precipitate change. So we would dismantle one of the facets of our education system that worked amazingly well, though not fully funded, through one of the most dire periods of our collective history? It doesn’t make sense. The CCMS system is frankly treasured by many people in that community.

    I am also big on freedom of choice and would be totally against enforcing an education system as law onto the entire population. I am against the destruction of the selection system as well, which runs against mainstream republican policy. People are entitled in my view to choose an education that they feel best fits their children. Choice.

    To relate this to the OO. I don’t think educating Catholics about the OO will make a blind bit of difference. I just don’t think the organisation has anything to offer Catholics. I appreciate the musical elements. I appreciate the sense of community that could come from being a part of it. I appreciate the longevity of its history. I also see how it could provide a sense of cohesiveness and belonging to a community.

    However I also see the outworkings of its heady mix of religio-mono-cultural-political core principles on the streets. Which I won’t labour since I have done previously.

    To answer directly to your question then. I don’t think it is really about getting Catholics to view the OO through a different “integrated educated” filter. To use an analogy to view the OO through a royal blue-filtered set of glasses, rather than emerald green. I think if the image that comes back is of something unpleasant, regardless of the filter colour or the angle you tilt your head at, you will always recoil from it.

    Miss Piggy with lipstick on, is still ultimately Miss Piggy. Mind you she did have an unrequited love for that small chap in green. Maybe I am over-reacting or am I just hamming it up…

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Fair enough

    However, I was more thinking along the lines of how hardened attitudes within the Protestant community might thaw a wee bit ergo lessening the appeal of some of the more unsavoury bands and lodges, I wasn’t thinking of educating Catholics about the OO.

    If the OO want to look good/better in the eyes of others then I recommend they get on the dog n bone to Saatchi & Saatchi or some such PR guru…

    But yes, I see your point about not forcing something like this one people but if we were going to ruffle feathers to exact great change then this would be my choice of bird.

    But, tis a matter of opinion.

    BTW, wasn’t aware of Flegger Becky, who she?

  • FDM

    Am Ghobsmacht 2 October 2013 at 12:12 pm

    BTW, wasn’t aware of Flegger Becky, who she?
    ———-

    Becky

    http://www.4thought.tv/themes/is-northern-ireland-giving-religion-a-bad-name/becky-rowan

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Jesus Hilary Christ.

  • Rory Carr

    How do you feel about the violence that are occurring towards the situation ? asks Becky and, do you know, I have never honestly asked myself that question before. However, as I am already a good few years past average life expectancy in my area, I don’t think I will bother – people might think I had succumbed to Alzheimers’ disease.

  • Sp12

    ““How do you feel about the violence that are occurring towards the situation ”

    Shush
    Mick introduced her to us all as an articulate young lady.

  • David Crookes

    Let those who are historically more literate than I take FDM seriously for a moment, and answer five questions.

    Did the OO stop marching voluntarily for a number of years during the fifth decade of the last century?

    Why did it do so? [Note: NOT Why did it say it was doing so?]

    Did the last Prime Minister of NI ever impose a ban on all marching?

    If it was possible for the OO to stop marching in the past, may it be possible to stop it marching in the future?

    Hitler used to say that no matter what happened, two things would always exist: the British Empire and the Roman Catholic Church. Some of my fellow-citizens have got it into their heads that Orange marching will always be a major fact of local life. Are they correct?

  • John Ó Néill

    I can answer this one: Did the last Prime Minister of NI ever impose a ban on all marching?

    There were regularly bans imposed on processions in the 19th century. Am not sure about voluntary bans at any date. 1935 was closest as it came from the cabinet of the northern government, but even it didn’t stick.

    There was a ban imposed by the Minister for Home Afffairs in 1935. There had been trouble since the Outdoor Relief Riots and strikes in 1932 and it was coming to a head in 1935, including violence that contemporary commentators all claim had begun to be reminiscent of the violence on 1920-22 (in which nearly 500 people died in Belfast alone). The timeline below is from an article called Present Position of Catholics in Northern Ireland published by an author using the name ‘Northman’ in the 1936 volume of Studies: An Irish Quarterly Review (volume 25, pages 581-596). It can be accessed here on JSTOR. Serious rioting and fatalities occurred over the Twelfth with 13 dead.
    As an aside – the Belfast Battalion of the IRA had held a training camp at Giles Quay in Louth over the Twelfth since 1932. In 1935, on the night of the Twelfth the riots started in Belfast and, as word had reached the Battalion Staff at Giles Quay that evening they had prepared to leave first thing on the 13th for Belfast (this had also happened in 1932). The Gardai raided the camp on the morning of the 13th and arrested some of the senior IRA men present. This was at the height of conflict between the IRA and Blueshirts in the south as well. Some of the Gardai made it clear they were detaining the IRA men to prevent them getting back to Belfast, in the end 12 of them were brought before a military tribunal and served about five months in prison in Dublin before getting back to Belfast.

    Here’s part of Northman’s timeline for 1935:

    June 17.-This was the worst night of shooting since the beginning of the trouble. Volley after volley was fired into the Catholic quarter of North Queen Street, wounding one man in the stomach. As a result of urgent appeals from various sections of the citizens to put a stop to the growing anarchy, the Government at last decided to take action. On the following day the Minister for Home Affairs issued an Order prohibiting all “processions, other than funerals, and the assembly of any groups or bodies of persons in any public place within the City of Belfast.”
    June 23.-Sir Joseph Davison, addressing an Orange gathering at Hillsborough, referred to the above Order thus : ” You may be perfectly certain that, for the Twelfth of July Orange celebrations, we shall march through Northern Ireland. I do not acknowledge the right of any Government, Northern or Imperial, to impose conditions as to the celebration of the glorious anniversary of the victory of the Boyne, nor shall I acknowledge any authority to ban the celebrations which have been held almost continuously for 140 years. You may be perfectly certain that. on July 12th I shall be marching at the head of the Orangemen of Belfast.”
    June 27.-Four days after Sir Joseph Davison’s speech the Minister for home Affairs gave way to Orange truculence and removed the ban on processions. It was clear who were the real rulers of Northern Ireland. Wild scenes-shootings, burnings, evictions, window smashings, beatings-became the order of the day and the night. A strong appeal for peace by the Right Rev. Dr. MacNiece, Protestant Bishop of Belfast, had not the slightest effect.

  • David Crookes

    Thanks a lot, John. Grim reading. I’ll have to take your posting away and study it.

    Must all of us go down with Fenris-Wolf? Is there no one with enough intelligence and stamina to kill the beast?

    Of course if there was, he or she would have to be immune to assassination.

    Maybe you or someone else will be good enough to correct me if what follows is wrong in any detail.

    The OO stopped marching during World War II, largely because it couldn’t explain why so many able-bodied and loyal men of military age were able to wear sashes and carry toy swords but not wear khaki and fight in a real war. Brian Faulkner announced a ban on all marches not long before the imposition of direct rule.

    Thanks again for your well-crafted posting.

  • John Ó Néill

    David – Brian Barton’s book (Northern Ireland in the Second World War) says that the ‘demonstrations’ (as the parades were known) were suspended for the duration and mentions that some claimed this was to avoid the embarrassment of the large numbers of able-bodied men who would be on show (and not on military service).

    I just checked and Barton’s book is on google books here.

    By the way – I just happened to be well up on this era as my grandfather took out a chair to stand on and then cut down bunting that was being attached to the front of his house in Fleet Street in the Docks in 1935 (and got burnt out for his efforts), whilst one of his brothers was Adjutant of the Belfast Battalion down at Giles Quay.

  • Comrade Stalin

    FDM,

    I presume neither are you. Hence why would Sinn Fein policy on this affect my own and yours and APNI’s point of view?

    (long and unhinged-sounding incoherent ranting snipped)

    God you’re slow on the uptake. I’ll break it up into small pieces.

    I said that 99% of parades are “uncontroversial”. I’ll put it a little better – 99% of parades have no problems and there is no violence. I said that we only need a solution that involves the remaining <1% of parades and that the idea of banning all parades, including the 99% where there are no issues, is ridiculous.

    You ranted a load of nonsense about Alliance. I replied to point out that my opinion was similar to that of Sinn Féin. In fact I doubt you could find much to separate Alliance and the nationalist parties on the issue of parades. Nobody wants to ban all parades.

    I do not know or care about what your opinion is because I simply don't have the time to sift through your angry rants to try to figure out what it is. I am merely pointing out that banning all marches is unrepresentative, unrealistic, and is ridiculous and completely unnecessary.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Comrade Stalin

    “I’ll put it a little better – 99% of parades have no problems ”

    A lot of parades are object to by the business community as Shops/pubs in the towns suffer economically when parading takes place.

    I was talking with a group of Tyrone ladies (Protestants who send their children to state schools) who was strongly objecting to how badly the Christmas market was hurt in Belfast by the flag protesters.

    Allaince party position on parades is not the same as Nationalist parties:

    “Until there is political agreement on a new structure”
    http://allianceparty.org/article/2013/007789/alliance-to-meet-parades-commission

    SDLP
    The leader of the SDLP backs a call from the Police Federation for all contentious parades in Northern Ireland to be stopped for six months.

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sdlp+parades&rlz=1C1SKPL_enGB447GB447&oq=sdlp+parades&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60.4070j0&sourceid=chrome&espvd=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

    SF
    Hold a parade which Alliance strongly objected.

  • FDM

    Comrade Stalin 2 October 2013 at 7:47 pm

    “long and unhinged-sounding incoherent ranting snipped”

    Which is CS man-playing FDM again. Now there is something new.

    Unless you have a text to sound converter it didn’t SOUND like anything. So I don’t know where the “unhinged” and/or “ranting” nonsense is derived from? “Incoherent”, I don’t think anyone is going to buy that one. I think in this instance it might be a tad more to do with your subjective reading of the material. Is that a plank in your eye?

    “God you’re slow on the uptake.”

    Which is CS man-playing FDM again. Now there is something new.

    “I’ll break it up into small pieces.”

    Which is CS man-playing FDM again. Now there is something new.

    “I said that 99% of parades are “uncontroversial”.”

    Exactly right, YOU said, i.e. your personal opinion is that 99% of parades are “uncontroversial”. Then you hop to say that they are uncontroversial because ( – ) there is no violence. I think we can all see how LHS does not equal RHS there. One can object to things without violence, you have heard of such conduct, no?

    Now MY subjective opinion is that all sectarian parades are controversial. The OO and its aligned bodies are by their principles, their oaths, their conduct, their history and their present, wholly sectarian. Whilst this is my opinion I would venture to say that many, both in this region and beyond, would concur with that point of view.

    You don’t get to decide what is controversial and what is not. Your subjective opinions are not somehow enshrined as fact the minute you type them into a keyboard. Until you are made dictator Comrade Stalin people get to hold and express alternative points of view.

    “You RANTED a load of nonsense about Alliance.”

    Which is CS man-playing FDM again. Now there is something new.

    “I doubt you could find much to separate Alliance and the nationalist parties on the issue of parades.”

    Well we know that as balderdash. We all know Naomi Long, the solitary APNI MP for East Belfast, issued not one word of condemnation about multiple UVF celebrations in her own constituency yet went on a media tirade about a single commemoration event in Castlederg. SF are consistent. APNI have shown by such acts and omissions that their principles on parading are subject to electoral expediency. In that regard they have demonstrated a lack of integrity.

    “Nobody wants to ban all parades.”

    I do. Nobody means no-one, not a soul, not a solitary individual. I would also venture that there is a very sizeable group of people in this region that would support a complete ban on sectarian parading. There are some in the thread above who seem to be rather sympathetic to at least hear that argument out. So again you are making declarations that are patently false, from the off.

    “to sift through your angry rants”

    Which is CS man-playing FDM again. Now there is something new.

    “banning all marches is unrepresentative”

    Do you have any polls or statistics to actually back that up, or is that more of “CS dictates the world view”?

    “unrealistic”

    So unrealistic that posters above have kindly provided evidence of it occurring in the past. So unrealistic that Terry Spence of the Police Federation asked for a 5 year ban on them to give the region some space to get back on an even keel. Strange bedfellows Mr. Spence and my good self. It does however illustrate that their is a spectrum of “Nobody” people who would strongly suggest this as the correct course of action at this time.

    “ridiculous and completely unnecessary.”

    Whatever is necessary is never ridiculous.

    Now to deal with your repeated man-playing, since it seems that APNI cloak of referee invulnerability seems to be over your shoulders again.

    I don’t come on this site to trade insults with people, so I will neither be buying them from or selling them to the likes of you CS. If you can neither defeat nor embroider my contributions from that quaint dishwater politics that APNI drones regurgitate then could I ask that you simply run your ad-hominem comments down-the-road.

  • DC

    my grandfather took out a chair to stand on and then cut down bunting that was being attached to the front of his house in Fleet Street in the Docks in 1935

    why did he do that?

  • Comrade Stalin

    FDM,

    Dry your eyes.

  • FDM

    Comrade Stalin 3 October 2013 at 10:41 pm

    FDM,

    Dry your eyes.

    ——————-

    I do of course note that I have a yellow card I and you do not.

    The case for the prosecution rests.

  • David Crookes

    John (7.42 pm, 2 October), sorry that I missed your post, and thanks a lot for the information.

    FDM has a point. Let me go further than he has gone, and ask what would happen if you stopped ALL parades for a year, by law.

    The OO would be forced to obey the law.

    Are people saying that it is ultimately impossible to make the OO obey the law?

    Then NI needs its own Tito, and I’m not joking.

  • sherdy

    David, – It is impossible to enforce the rule of law when the DUP, UUP and TUV, never mind the PUP are winding up and supporting the OO in every cock-eyed protest that they indulge in, trying to bring NI to its knees.
    They still seem to think that they can jump in front of a train and Westminster will protect them.
    It will only be when the PUL communities elect people prepared to think into the future rather than harking back to 1690 that there will be any real chance of progress politically.