POTD- Tyres, pallets and a flag

Ballysillan bonefire

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  • babyface finlayson

    Plenty of tyres on the Mount Vernon one too. Also a couple of tricolours. Which, I always think, must be confusing for any passing tourists.

  • Was going to post something then thought whats the point – same old same old

  • between the bridges

    BJJ… indeed but this time it looks a little less likely to rain…

  • carl marks

    have never understood why anyone would be crazy enough to set fire to a bunch of tryes never mind gathering round a burning pile of tyres.
    Does no one realise how many toxins these things into release the air my god some people even bring young children.

  • Shy Talk

    Carl Marks

    I was just thinking that myself. I suppose now with tyres being banned under this council funded bon fire scheme they are difiantly choking themselves and people in their area with these fumes. That’ll show the interfering council.

  • andnowwhat

    That’s illegal.

    Simple

  • Can you imagine the outcry if Sinn Fein decided to burn a stack of rubbish at their Easter commemoration and burnt Union Jacks along with Flags saying “Kill all protestants” on them?!

    There would be absolute outcry (and rightly so), I don’t think Stormont would survive it.

    Why then does this display of bigotry and offences against the environment get a free pass? Every year these parades and burning cause trouble and the strongest word of condemnation we get from the PSNI itself is that the violence is “Inexcusable”.

    The double standards are astounding.

  • On average, one of the people on top will have asthma, and suffer from the sulphur dioxide fumes from the burning tyres.

  • wee buns

    So much rubber.. it hurts.
    That’s environmental vandalism.

  • ranger1640

    Where do all these tyres come from to end up on a bonfire???

    Are you in North Belfast doing a recce in anticipation of tomorrow MP???

  • PJ Maybe

    He’s getting his “being offended” in first, you know like sending a text message in the afternoon of the 31st December, rather than wait for closer to the time, when no one will hear (or much care). Still it is good to see that someone so clearly bereft of talent and objectivity gets so much free publicity here.I can only assume its a condition of Slugger O’Tooles continued public funding that struggling photographers get a chance to display their work. So Mick who gets to take photos next? Is there some equally crap photographer with an agenda, scurrying around west Belfast taking shots (no the other type) of bad republican murals and self-inflicted deprivation, determined no matter what else they see, to be offended?

  • wee buns

    Ranger
    ”Where do all these tyres come from?”

    I’d love to know ‘cos by law should tyres not be properly recycled?

  • SK

    PJ,

    What exactly is it that you take issue with in this picture? Genuine question.

  • ranger1640

    Wee buns,

    I wonder if the appropriate government body could request that all tyre retailers and puncher repairers, must ensure that all stocks of old tyres be removed form their premises before the end of June?

    Has any retailer been fund to be supplying tyres for bonfires and have they ever been prosecuted?

    If any are supplying tyres, are the retailers avoiding and therefore pocketing the tyre recycling tax, by giving up these tyres for bonfires???

  • andnowwhat

    So PJ, what you are saying is that, not content with running around east Belfast painting loyalists murals, Moochin has now started building illegal bonfires?

    Naughty Moochin

  • Chris Donnelly

    Ranger
    Yes, let’s blame the businessmen.

    It’s their fault for not risking their livelihood (and possibly life) by telling the burly loyalists to take a hike when they arrive demanding tryes for the fires.

  • Scáth Shéamais

    Daniel: Why then does this display of bigotry and offences against the environment get a free pass?

    It’s “culture”.

  • PJ Maybe

    What do I think is wrong with the photo? Where do I start? Objectively it is badly composed, and technically poor. The middle distance shot of the bonfire is out of focus, it looks over cropped and the person taking it clearly has no conception of the appropriate use of filters. That and the clichéd subject matter. Indeed it is so poor that either, much like the rest of his equally poorly produced photographs, this overt amateurism is a feint, or he genuinely doesn’t have a clue about photography. Given the wearying unchanging drudgery of the stuff he selects as subject matter, I suspect he doesn’t have the wit for the former, so I’m forced to conclude it is the latter.

  • Clanky

    “He’s getting his “being offended” in first”

    How do you come to the conclusion that he is offended? It’s just a photograph, there are no comments, no outrage, no anything other than what is there to be seen. Or is the site of a pile of tires and the connotation that goes with them so obviously offensive that you just assume everyone else sees it as such?

  • galloglaigh

    I seen a photo somewhere, and it shows the intellectual level of those who built it.

    It started from the ground up, with ten row high of pallets. Good grounding!

    Above that was three or four row high of tires. Now there’s where the problems start. Above the tires, is a structure, possibly 40 or fifty high feet high. It is a mix of tires and palettes.

    I might also add, that this structure is feet away from a gable end house.

    Now, most bonfires are lit at the bottom. That much makes sense. But it doesn’t take Albert Einstein to work out, that when the bottom layers of tires burn, they lose their structural integrity. Now if they burn, then the massive structure above will more than likely fall. Given that it is meters away from a house, the chances are it could probably destroy the house or houses.

    How is this allowed to happen?

    How is this culture?

    I doubt that loyalist culture will have to evolve, this is wanton destruction of public property, and shame on any council who supports it.

    That also goes for republican bonfires. It’s time to change this culture; it’s counter-productive. Bonfires are a huge waste of public money, given that we all pay to police, put out, and clean up after these expressions of ‘culture’.

  • For all those complaining of a lack of photos of “the other side” there is a simple answer:

    Two wrongs don’t make a right.

    For someone like me living in SE Belfast, it doesn’t matter what republicans (dissident or otherwise do). What matters is pollution from burning tyres, and all the shops and businesses closing down because the protection money rates have not been reduced in the recession.

    I would put “TWO WRONGS DON’T MAKE A RIGHT” on the Slugger masthead, to keep reminding people.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Can you imagine the outcry if Sinn Fein decided to burn a stack of rubbish at their Easter commemoration and burnt Union Jacks along with Flags saying “Kill all protestants” on them?!

    Actually there used to be republican bonfires to mark internment, IIRC. Given the theme, it’s not desperately hard to imagine Union Jack flags being burnt.

    To their credit, republican leaders realized, as with the 11th bonfires, that these were a magnet for drug and alcohol abuse, vandalism and a blight on the community so they reorganized them into what is now the West Belfast festival.

    A few dickheads tried to start a bonfire up in the Dunclug estate a few years ago as a more general precursor to wider dissident republican agitation in the area. Chris D might know more about what happened to it, but I think it’s safe enough to say that the community did not want it and it was stopped.

    Chris, there must be a way to legislate tyre disposal regulations that would keep them out of the hands of the bonfire builders. You might end up putting some kind of punitive tax on new tyres which can be rebated only when old tyres are traded in exchange, or on a docket which is included with purchases of new wheels.

  • ranger1640

    How nice of you Chris for completely change the context of the post, but then I didn’t expect anything less, so I suppose you didn’t disappoint.

    Being the fount of all knowledge, on all things Loyalist Chris. You would of course know that they are always burly Loyalists that go demanding tyres.

    And i’t nice to see that when it come’s to whataboutery, the pious Chris is not above the fray.

  • between the bridges

    aye that comment of chris’s gave me a laugh too! not sure how you’s do it in the big smoke, but out here in the sticks the ‘burly loyalists’ bonfire collectors are rarely over 16.

  • wee buns

    The environment agency investigates many reports of illegal fly-tipping (the illegal disposal of waste on land) of tyres every week- so I just read on their site- so those tyres could’ve come from anywhere.
    Waste tyres are not classified as hazardous waste(!) and the inability of policing waste laws has reportedly left thousands of tones of tyre being stockpiled throughout the country.

    Crazy when you think, that if recycled, that raw material could be transformed into an all weather sports pitch, or something similar for the kids to enjoy on the other 364 days a year.

  • Alias

    It’s illegal to burn tyres in NI. So if anyone cares enough about it, they can report it to the PSNI. But as bonfires go, that one is impressive…

  • Reader

    Comrade Stalin: A few dickheads tried to start a bonfire up in the Dunclug estate a few years ago as a more general precursor to wider dissident republican agitation in the area. Chris D might know more about what happened to it, but I think it’s safe enough to say that the community did not want it and it was stopped.
    There have been successful republican bonfires quite recently in fact:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8207484.stm

  • Keithbelfast

    “Given the wearying unchanging drudgery of the stuff he selects as subject matter…”

    Seems a good enough photo to provoke debate. I note I’ll be adding the 28th comment.

    Also, does anyone know more about the Bonfire Management Schemes? Is this only open to those hosting existing bonfires or can any community apply for one?

  • JR

    I’ll be enjoying the clean air of South Armagh tonight.

  • Reader

    Comrade Stalin: Chris, there must be a way to legislate tyre disposal regulations that would keep them out of the hands of the bonfire builders. You might end up putting some kind of punitive tax on new tyres which can be rebated only when old tyres are traded in exchange, or on a docket which is included with purchases of new wheels.
    In practice, it’s too hard to get the bureaucracy right. Instead, you need to put a value on old tyres making them too valuable to burn, but not valuable enough to steal or import. I doubt it can be done.
    I think tough policing is the answer. A bonfire that is too full of tyres should be bulldozed and the tyres removed. While only a fraction of the offending bonfires could be tackled in any one year, the high profile ones could be dealt with. It might take a few years and quite a bit of inconvenience, but eventually the lesson will sink in.

  • ranger1640

    Because I can’t start a thread or start a photo thread I thought I would post this link here.

    http://www.u.tv/News/Union-flag-can-fly-at-Ardoyne-parade/8f3d0548-3621-4c22-ac25-cdfec28d018e

    Seems that the Union Flag will be on display on the Crumlin Road tomorrow after all. So please let MP know so he can be there to record it, in his own inimitable way.

    Chris as you seem to know all there is to know about Loyalists, can you let us know the name of the burly Loyalist who will be carrying the Union Flag on the Crumlin Road tomorrow?

  • Keithbelfast

    It’s newsworthy so why wouldn’t MP be free to record it?

    I get the impression that the majority of complaints directed at MP come from people who are uncomfortable with the truths about their communities that he’s documenting.

    As for the point Chris makes: “It’s their fault for not risking their livelihood (and possibly life) by telling the burly loyalists to take a hike when they arrive demanding tryes for the fires”

    How can you have issue with this? This is what happens. The tyres are an issue, but the lost pallets hit some businesses ever harder. A new pallet costs about a £10. How much money went up in smoke this morning?

  • tacapall

    “The tyres are an issue, but the lost pallets hit some businesses ever harder. A new pallet costs about a £10. How much money went up in smoke this morning”

    Where do all those pallets come from, surely Irish bonding or whoever owns them must bear some responsibility for any damage caused to public property when things go wrong, are they handed over to kids or whoever for these bonfires or are they sold for this purpose ?

  • Keithbelfast

    I’ll paraphrase Chris:

    “It’s their fault for not risking their livelihood (and possibly life) by telling the burly loyalists to take a hike when they arrive demanding…pallets for the fires.”

  • Comrade Stalin

    Reader,

    Indeed. Much as I am in favour of the tough application of the law where mandated, if there is a simpler, non-confrontational way of accomplishing the same thing then we should try that first.

    I can’t imagine the kind of riot that would develop if an attempt was made to take down a bonfire. You would have to put the army in. It is hard to know how the paramilitaries would respond to that. They may well decide that it is time to restart the shooting.

    It would be a lot easier for politicians to have a united front on this. They may well be forced to do so if the EU becomes involved and decided to impose fines on Northern Ireland for blatantly turning a blind eye to the protocols that ban burning rubbish in this way.

    Keith, are you sure those not-recycled pallets cost businesses money ? I have had things delivered on palettes at work a few times. They always seemed to be considered part of the packaging waste, and I was never aware of any attempt to recycle them.

  • tacapall

    Comrade Stalin the cost of the pallet is included in delivery its more a deposit returnable when the pallet is brought back but you cant buy the blue pallets.

  • Keithbelfast

    Would they not chalk that up as a business cost? I’m sure a few businesses have had to add a bonfire expense column to their accounts spreadsheet…

  • Comrade Stalin

    Keith, that’s what I’m saying, when you get charged £100 for delivery of a large item I’m assuming that includes the price of the pallet, shrinkwrap, bubblewrap etc.

  • Reader

    Comrade Stalin: I can’t imagine the kind of riot that would develop if an attempt was made to take down a bonfire. You would have to put the army in. It is hard to know how the paramilitaries would respond to that. They may well decide that it is time to restart the shooting.
    It’s easy to wind up a loyalist, and there would be rioting, but probably not shooting. The trick is not to have too many issues ongoing at once, and therefore to cut the worst elements off from their wider base. This year there has been too much confusion – there could have been a clear line set out on flags, or tyres, but instead: nothing really achieved.
    The other thing is to reassure loyalists that the process isn’t part of a long slow push to a United Ireland, instead that the end point is when they are house trained. (Best not to put it like that, I suppose…)

  • antamadan

    I don’t understand how burning the tricolour is allowed. Surely with the agreements, NI consists of British citizens and Irish citizens. How can anyone think a bonfire to burn a tricolour is appropriate?

  • andnowwhat

    £100 pound for delivery of a large item?

    My Mrs owes me a fortune!!

    (I’ll get my coat)

  • Comrade Stalin

    It’s easy to wind up a loyalist, and there would be rioting, but probably not shooting.

    It’s all conjecture of course, but I’m not quite so sure of this. There is an element of “we don’t care anymore”-ness that has crept in lately. They’re almost challenging the authorities into provoking them into escalating things. They don’t seem to care if other people think they are responsible or not. In the absence of anyone challenging this notion they have that they never get their way on anything anymore, as far as they see it they have the justification.

    I’m sure there are still people who think of the glory days of 1974 or Drumcree 1996 and who would not mind taking a shot at trying a trick like that again.

    This year there has been too much confusion – there could have been a clear line set out on flags, or tyres, but instead: nothing really achieved.

    I think people have been caught off guard by the change in mood this year.

    The other thing is to reassure loyalists that the process isn’t part of a long slow push to a United Ireland, instead that the end point is when they are house trained. (Best not to put it like that, I suppose…)

    I don’t believe this is possible. Look at how they reacted to a couple of accidentally-removed union jacks (although I am suspicious that the riot still would have taken place had the union jacks remained in place). Unfortunately they are part of a culture where there really is no law or authority that cannot be pushed.

  • Munsterview

    PJ….. “What do I think is wrong with the photo? Where do I start? Objectively it is badly composed, and technically poor……”

    The late Brendan Behan was asked by a TV show host after a particularly bad review of one of his plays by an English theater critic if he was upset. Behans answer : ” To my mind a critic is like a eunuch in a brothel, they know how it is done, they have seen it done but I am F***** if they can do it for themselves ” !

    If you think that Moochin’s photos are one-sided polemics and technically deficient, there is an answer, you can nowadays purchase a reasonably priced digital camera with publication grade picture taking capacity and give us all the graphical benefit of your alleged photographic expertise and ‘ boots on the ground’ insights. Until then PJ, for me anyway, Behan’s pithy observation will apply!

    As a historian I can assure you that long after the ‘Troubles’ have vanished over the horizon as they eventually did in the other Twenty-Six Counties of this island, history students will be using Moochin’s work to reference and illustrate the period that we are now living through.

    Critical comments such as yours, if referred to at all, will merit no more than a footnote in history to show the polemic background bile emanating from some protestant sources that existed as he carried out his welcome ( or to some quarters, unwelcome) documentary work.

    If this year, young attractive teenage girls are not hanging around the OO parades with FTP etc painted on their faces because of proper supervision, then we can thank Moochin’s galling graphic of last year and the shame it brought to all aware, right thinking protestants and christians rather than any great enlightenment or change of attitude in the meantime.

    Moochin is not only documenting change, his work is also occasionally a useful conduit for these changes of attitude. Can you say likewise of your negative criticism?

  • galloglaigh

    When a community allows young teenagers to destroy their shared space, it says a lot about that community. They are either afraid of these youths, or they are in favour of their activities. Communities who allow this, loyalist, republican, or otherwise, should be banned from receiving public money until they change. Much needed money is being burnt to the ground, while primary schools are crumbling.

    There must be a better way to celebrate the past?

  • Reader

    antamadan: I don’t understand how burning the tricolour is allowed.
    There’s no specific law against burning flags. In some particular cases it could be prosecuted as an action likely to lead to a breach of the peace. If you think there should be a law against burning flags, what flags should it cover, and what sort of penalties ought to be applied?

  • Keithbelfast

    We don’t need a flag burning law, we need more fire resistant flegs.

  • Reader

    Keithbelfast: We don’t need a flag burning law, we need more fire resistant flegs.
    That won’t work. I know someone who sells dress and curtain material. It turns out that a lot of flags are made locally just for the occasion. What you really need is a much more complicated design. That will slow them down a bit.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I would not agree with a law banning the burning of flags.

    However I don’t see how the people who do so can talk about the need for people to respect their own flags.

  • Greenflag

    Why don’t the police bulldoze those bonfires which contain tyres or use water cannon to douse the fires if started ?

    Theres no point in having a law if it’s not implemented !

    The eh ‘intellectuals ‘ on the top of the tyre heap seem to have recently discovered ‘fire’ so they may be a few years ahead of their pre burning primate first cousins as in this clip but I would’nt bet on it .

    Have a safe 12th enjoy it if you must -don’t drink and don’t drive and hang on to your bibles and baubles and don’t inhale those toxic fumes cos protestant lungs inhale the same way as fenian lungs .

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZieSsxPkMwk&feature=related

  • orly

    antamadan 11 July 2011 at 6:27 pm
    I don’t understand how burning the tricolour is allowed. Surely with the agreements, NI consists of British citizens and Irish citizens. How can anyone think a bonfire to burn a tricolour is appropriate?

    As a holder of both Irish and British passports, it matters little. Burn whatever pieces of cloth you want on a bonfire. If it’s a proddy one go for the tricolour. As we’ve seen, catholics also throw the union flag on theirs. Perhaps more comical seeings it’s done in the UK. Tolerance there 😉

    Would take more balls to round up a few of the other side and throw them on the bonfire instead. That would signal something significant. But that would probably only happen in places like Africa where they go overboard with such fanatic zeal.

    Time for a term – showboatery? To go along with all the faux-offended

  • SK

    Dancing around a burning flag with a can in your hand does not qualify as culture. This kind of shit should stop, unionists know it should stop, and that is why they lash out at anyone who brings attention to what they get up to on their days off.

  • karl

    hahahaha ats r we bonfire ,