Man wanted by German Authorities over 1996 PIRA Attack arrested in Kerry

About that bad smell…   Here’s one to keep on eye on.  The BBC report notes

A [46-year-old] man wanted by German authorities over an attack on a British army base in Germany in 1996 has appeared in court in the Republic of Ireland on an extradition warrant.

And from the Irish Times report

James Anthony Oliver Albert Corry (46) was arrested in Killorglin, Co Kerry, on Friday on foot of a European Arrest Warrant issued by German authorities.

Mr Corry is suspected of being involved in a Provisional IRA attack in Osnabruck, Germany, in 1996 in which three mortar shells were fired at a British army barracks.

The prosecution warrant states that Mr Corry is wanted for terrorism type offences in relation to a mortar attack in Germany in 1996.

RTÉ adds

Detective Sergeant Sean Fallon of the Garda extradition unit gave evidence of arrest charge and caution.

He told the court that Mr Corry confirmed his identity to him this morning in Killorglin and when he asked him if he had a tattoo of the letter J, he rolled up his right sleeve and showed it to him.

He said he showed him the warrant alleging that he was a suspect for terrorist-type offences at Osnabruck in 1996 but Mr Corry had nothing to say.

Judge Aileen Donnelly said she was satisfied the man in court was the person named on the European Extradition Warrant.

She told him he had the right to consent to surrender and remanded him in custody pending a bail application next Tuesday.

Germany is not a signatory of the 1998 Belfast Agreement.  [And they clearly didn’t ‘post’ out any letters of comfort… – Ed]  Indeed.

Adds  Other campaigns for justice will be watching with interest.

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  • Greenflag 2

    Maybe you should reflect on Erskine Childers whose father served in the RAF WWI and who ended up being executed by the Irish Free State Government for being a Republican during the Irish Civil War . You might also reflect that his son Erskine was elected as Irish President by a large majority of Irish voters . British usually means being tolerant , law abiding and democratic in this day and age . By that standard modern NI Unionism has a lot to learn from the modern British .

  • Greenflag 2

    British people live in the Republic so why would a million British need to withdraw from any UI ? I’m sure there are some who can’t stomach any thought of living in a peaceful united Ireland for whatever reason . Their business of course . Where would they mass withdraw to ? Liverpool ? Bradford ? Toxteth or Hartlepool . If you are considering this move I’d suggest the Orkneys probably the least British part of Britain after Northern Ireland 🙁

  • Greenflag 2

    Fascinating what one learns here 🙂

  • Greenflag 2

    The non Catholic population of the island was in decline from the 1840’s due to Famine and later due to the disestablishment of the Anglican Church a long overdue Act of Parliament .. So also was the Catholic population . The reasons for both are described in detail in ‘ Ireland’s Holy Wars ‘ written by Marcus Tanner -a British journalist who gives the numbers . I suggest you read it and get your facts right . Pogroms usually last a day or a week or are instigated intermittenly by anti semitic monarchs such as the Russian Czars etc . The burning of Belfast Catholics homes could be and has been described accurately as a pogrom.

    The population of all of Ireland was never 25% Protestant.. Ulster ( 9 counties ) which had the most Protestants and one third of the population of the island had just over 50% Protestant in 1920 . One third of 50% is 17% . Which of course is why the gerrymander of 1920 was set up to increase the local NI protestant majority to 66% . That worked for 50 years but now it appears that even in NI Protestants are either in or heading for minority status . In Ulster as a whole they probably make up about 40% of the total down from 50% in 1920. Given that approx 66% of all emigrants from NI from 1920 were Catholic it can be safely stated that RCs would probably have become a voting majority within NI in the 1960’s or 1970’s .

    I suggest you read Tanner . He tells it like it is and was and why . Much more complex than the lies sometimes perpitrated by both sides in NI for local political consumption and or hate feeding .

  • Greenflag 2

    I prefer to use the term Nationalist and Unionist instead of religious terms for in truth the NI problem has nothing to do with religion per say . It’s about power , money and conflicting national identities and politics of the double minority . Those involved include British Unionists , Ulster Loyalists , Irish nationalists , Irish Republicans.

  • James7e

    “If you are considering this move I’d suggest the Orkneys probably the least British part of Britain after Northern Ireland :(”

    Lads, lads…..You are simply all over the place with your argument. So now you feel Northern Ireland IS part of Britain. And British. Just not very British. But more British than the Orkneys.

  • Greenflag 2

    Where is the source for your assertation that the population of all of Ireland was ever 25% non Catholic . It may have been at the time of Oliver Cromwell when he was slaughtering as many RCs as he could . . Being non religious I don’t particularly care but for the sake of historical accuracy you should supply your source .

  • gendjinn

    “Many of the unionists here would love to see all guilty parties called to account for their actions.”

    Problem with that is most Unionists refuse to acknowledge as crimes the vast majority of the murders committed by the RUC/UDR/BA.

    You know the line – Bloody Sunday victims were all terrorists, as were Guildford 4, Birmingham 6, Maguire 7 and all those children the RUC shot in the head were engaged in riots that no one else saw. The soldiers that shot IRA members in the head as they lay on the ground in Loughall instead of arresting them.

    So that carries very little weight.

    You yourself refuse to acknowledge the multiple genocides by the UK state as genocides.

    So you know, you’ll understand when we call that statement out for the weasel words they are.

  • Greenflag 2

    That won’t stop the vitriolic anti everything Irish mob within Loyalism and Unionism .

    On a personal note I recall being in New Jersey in the summer of 1969 when Americans landed on the moon . At that time I knew nothing about Northern Ireland other than what I had picked up in school from a couple of teachers who skimmed briefly over the subject while making snide remarks about the so called League of Ireland and the Irish League .

    I was on a JI visa for the summer and ended up working with a group of fellow Irish and British guys . A great summer the highlight being the moon landing . Two of the English lads were from Birmingham and the other from Halifax -the Irish being from Dublin , Galway and Roscommon .

    The English lads were students at Queens in Belfast and one of them I guess was politically aware . I recall being shocked when one day he burst into the common room we all shared shouting ‘Theres war in Ireland ‘ . I asked whom who we were at war with ? His reply was even more shocking – Its the Catholics and Protestants in Belfast .

    It took a while for this to register for in truth I knew less than nothing of NI history or its social and economic history at the time .

    But what really shocked the other Irish lads and myself even more was what the lad from Halifax said later after we read the news from the papers .

    He was English and had spent three years in NI at Queens and was non catholic and the oldest at 21 within our group .

    Basically what he said was ‘ It was about time the Catholics started fighting for their rights ‘. He made this statement based on his three years in Belfast and later made other comments re the NI situation which we Irish found embarassing to have to hear from an honest Yorkshireman . Our own government in the Republic had kept the entire population in the dark re the plight of the NI nationalist population .

    Much has improved in NI since those days thankfully but there are some who would like to return NI to 1950 and who have learnt nothing nor will they ever from the events of the past several decades .

    Adapt or die is the law of nature . Political unionism has apparently chosen not to adapt 🙁

    I

  • Greenflag 2

    Somebody who believes the Earth was created 6,000 years ago and that Evolution is just a theory and that homosexuality is a disease which can be cured isn’t a cartoon character . That somebody is an idiot overflowing with bullshit and is probably a person who might be more at home politically in Kabul or Islamabad .

    As for hanging out the dirty laundry of unionism what else can he do ? Hang out the clean laundry .If so where would he find it ? Can’t say I’ve seen any this past decade or two or three . Not that the Republican laundry is much cleaner mind you . But then Slugger is no friend of SF (what a surprise ) and has in the past and will n the future use every brick it can find to throw at Adams and Co .

    In fairness to Anglo Irish he has a very good read of NI’s history.

  • Greenflag 2

    56,000 Americans were killed in Vietnam along with 3 million Vietnamese . 300,000 were killed in the Balkans and at this point probably a million or close to in the Middle East .
    We’ll pass on the mass murders civilian bombings and gas ovens and gulags of Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany .

    And yet the parties in NI can’t get over their ‘troubles ‘ and the past and the 3,500 dead . They or at least quite a few seem to prefer their hateful past so it can remind them of the hateful political future they have to look forward to 🙁

    Their choice until the day dawns when the numbers no longer add up and the Unionist Emperor is seen for what he is and always has been -a naked pretender .

  • James7e

    You’ve said of the IRA that ”they harboured no ambitions to control another country nor impose their will upon another land.”

    I think you will find that that is exactly what they tried, and failed, to do. NI being under the UK jurisdiction.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Ask them.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    And you know fine and well that i think that your opinion of the famine as genocide (something you’ve asked me to stop talking to you about but you’ve brought the topic up again) is off the mark.

    Denying it as a genocide does not make me cold and blind to British wrongs.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Laundry hanging is perfectly fine when relevant to the topic at hand.
    here however, there is an insinuation of unionist hypocrisy when dealing with Mitch, Hugh McCoy and a few others (I except chrisjones from the list, as you can imagine ).

    Mentioning unionist misdeeds isn’t a universal debating band-aid:

    “Excuse me, there’s a fly in my soup”

    “Yeah? Well what about paisley? ??!!!”

    And if i could point out he referred to the ira as a paramilitary group (hinting at freedom fighters) whereas zeno (hypocritcal unionist?) Labelled the uvf (correctly imo) as a sectarian murder gang.

    Yet we’re the ones in denial of unionist misdeeds? Please square that one away for me particularly in the context of this topic I.e. a topic where he agrees with the main unionist point (let justice be done for the Germans ) whilst claiming unionist hypocrisy as the prime motive to the extent that the discussion involves disagreeing with an Israeli American, an Irish republican and numerous others who all agree (with him) that German justice should be done.

    Unionists aren’t a hive mind collective and asking that the murder-accused face justice shouldn’t automatically qualify all unionists as hypocrites which SEEMS to be the base assumption without any question.

    But rather than ask an individual unionist their stance on the matter to gauge if there is hypocrisy it is taken as a given that they are and as matter of proof a list of unionist wrongs is reeled off e.g. ‘the dirty laundry’.

    Is that an unfair assessment of what happens on these topics or not (and yes, unionists do it too before you highlight that).)?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    The suggestion that you disagree with the idea comes from getting stuck into those who do agree with it.

    When held up to the light perhaps the Nazi comparison was lazy but as a rule of thumb both groups contained murderers who sought to evade justice (like the topic in question).

    And as for failing to agree with the Israeli American and Irish republican, well, did you really disagree with them?

    Mitch stated an approval (of sorts) regarding Cory being brought to account, something you claim to agree with yet you still opted for the unionist/British laundry card.
    so, a non-unionist comes out with something that you agree with yet you still post a retort that insinuated some sort of unionist hypocrisy.

    I have no problem (at all) highlighting unionist short comings but assuming everyone is a unionist hypocrite may not be the best way of bringing about the desires change in our mindsets that you would like to see.

    Yes, i appreciate that i’m about to fall off my pretendy high horse but could I just ask that you bear this in mind? (And unleash he’ll whenever you have a bonafide hypocrite in your sights)

  • James7e

    “My impression is that many ( not all ) of the unionist posters on this forum take great delight in pointing out the iniquities of the IRA…..but prefer to gloss over the equally disgraceful actions of the ‘Loyalists’.”

    I can only speak for myself, buy I personally have never ‘glossed over” any murders or other terrorist acts committed by Loyalist paramilitaries – and have often enough said that said paramilitaries should all face trial.

    Certainly, I have often criticized apologists for the IRA (of which there are many on this site – likes of John Collins, with his trademark ineloquent smirking comments, and the usually irate Gendjinn spring to mind), and would criticize in equal measure unionists defending Loyalists terrorists. Thing is, one doesn’t see too many unionists on here defending the indefensible.

  • James7e

    “The soldiers that shot IRA members in the head as they lay on the ground in Loughall instead of arresting them.”

    Your problem, fundamentally, is that you would applaud the IRA for doing the same.

  • Greenflag 2

    By the year 19223 there won’t be any protestants or catholics in Northern Ireland or Ireland or Britain, As its 17,208 years in the future one can hope that assuming homo sapiens is stlll extant that religion and national identities will be seen as part of the ancient past .

  • Greenflag 2

    “This bit isnt.”

    Northern Ireland is different from any region of the UK I’ve ever had the pleasure to visit . Its not Finchley nor Chelsea nor Tunbridge Wells or Harrogate .

    Its half a dozen or so MP’s who actually go to Westminster are a pimple on the backside of the Westminster Parliament . Even if SF MPs were to attend it would make little difference . I happen to believe they should’nt abstain from Westminster as long as NI continues to be part of the UK . Neither Scotland or Wales the other devolved regions of the UK have mandatory power sharing forced on them by the Westminster Parliament . The reason is obvious . Neither Scotland nor Wales had Unionist one party majority rule for half a century . The other reason is that Westminster understood finally in 1974 that political unionism alone could’nt be trusted to govern Northern Ireland ever again.

    Its really not that difficult to deduce that mandatory power sharing is as good as it gets until its no longer necessary i.e when the NI State is consigned to history.

  • Greenflag 2

    Any political violence after the GFA is unacceptable and undemocratic.

    Absolutely .

    ‘Prior to that, given the circumstances it’s debatable and we’re into ‘one mans terrorist/freedom fighter’ territory.’

    Sadly true but inevitable given the NI states inherent deficiency in having the fundamental foundations for normal democracy to function in a manner acceptable to a large majority of it’s population

    “don’t assume what the outcome of any EU referendum may be, big business will call the shots.”

    Probably . The economic implications for NI and Scotland if the UK were to opt out are only now being considered . Both regions would lose out if the UK withdraws . London might do okay or at least its financial hub.

  • Greenflag 2

    There are two sides to any coin . Unfortunately NI is not a coin and there are more sides than two even if the basic underlying two sides are Green and Orange their various hues notwithstanding.

    Tossing a coin to decide an outcome is usually a heads or tail bet . For NI to succeed as a normal democracy will require the tossed coin to land on its edge every time. Depending on a coin to land on its rim is not a winning strategy .

  • Zeno

    “The IRA were attempting to restore a part of their country back to its original position from which it should never have been separated.”

    When a self appointed gang with no mandate attempt to change the will of the majority using murder and torture. That’s called terrorism.They failed obviously.

  • submariner

    Again you have chosen to ignore my point of the over two hundred unclaimed murders of Catholics by loyalists how many were committed by the UVF?

  • Zeno

    I haven’t ignored it. If no one knows and the UVF haven’t claimed any of them when they did claim hundreds it’s just speculation. The IRA didn’t claim all of theirs ,we do know that for sure.

  • gendjinn

    There you go again making stuff up.

  • gendjinn

    AG,

    I point you to James7e comments to me on this thread as the perfect illustration. My comment to Neil on Jude Collins’ Pat Benstead thread gives another prime example. Things you are already aware of.

    And yet that was the only thing in my comment you responded to. Instead of the substance of my comment. Why was that?

  • gendjinn

    They’ve shown me repeatedly in their comments over the last 15 odd years of slugger.

    Orwell’s commentary on Nationalism never rang truer than when applied to Unionism.

  • James7e

    Well, prove me wrong then. I think that the IRA shooting unarmed soldiers and policemen was the act of pathetic, cowardly half-men. Would you agree?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    “You don’t think that it was genocide?”

    No I don’t.

    If they wanted a genocide then there would have been obvious intent, much less in the way of relief effort (as botched as it may have been) and a much greater toll.

    If they wanted to instigate a genocide (against one of their greatest sources of soldiers and food) they had ample opportunity to do so in the previous famines and famine ‘scares’ in 1816-17, 1822, 1831, 1835, 1837, 1839 and 1842 (and 1845 if you want to be picky).

    But they did not.

    Instead they developed a ‘in case of famine in Ireland – break glass’ system for relief (one which included relief works which as of the 1980’s was still a main recommended course of tackling famines). So by the time 1846 came around it was a case of “well, here we go again, pass me the Bat Phone…”.

    “Well it wasn’t a famine was it?”

    Yes it was, the main food source was no more.

    They couldn’t afford food (for a while anyway, 1846 saw European wide price hikes in food, hence the need for security for the MERCHANTS (NOT THE GOVERNMENT)that were exporting the now lucrative food) , hence they starved, similar to the 7 Ill Years in Scotland which led to so many Scottish famine refugees (or ‘interlopers as you have referred to them and their descendants ) heading to Ulster.

    Once a demographic’s food source increases then so too does that demographic e.g. the IR8 rice strain and the corresponding population boom that came with it in the20th century.

    Remove the rice and you’d have people starving, regardless of how much bread there may be in India.

    “Famine is caused by a shortage of food, thousands of tons of cereal and huge numbers of livestock were exported out of Ireland under armed guard whilst people starved.”

    Yes, the merchants bought it from the farmers with a view to greed/profit and acquired the necessary security for such a trade.

    Not nice, but not genocide.

    The ‘Bob Geldof with a gun’ idea was very alien to free-trade economists at the time.

    The import/export deficient stopped by 1847.

    “So what exactly did happen in the country in the mid 1800’s?”

    Many, many, many things from a change in government, European wide food price hikes, mistimed and mismanaged relief attempts, false reports of the famine ending in 1847 (thereby calling an early halt to some relief measures) and many, many more things besides.

    Whist you’re at it perhaps you would care to give your view on this quotation from the man placed in charge of resolving the problem.

    He was a mean man who jumped on the Providentialism and whose foolish, bitter remarks are jumped upon as evidence of genocide at the expense of actual relief attempts.

    “I regard people who claim that the ‘Famine’ wasn’t genocide to be in the same bracket as Holocaust deniers.

    The Nazis put a lot of time and effort into killing people, the British government put a lot of time and effort into trying (and miserably failing) to save lives.

    Apples, pears.

    “Incidentally Charles Trevelyan’s excuse was that he believed that people should be self sufficient and even if that meant many starved to death it was all for the greater good.”

    Like I say he was a mean man and thankfully he didn’t have it all his way.

    “Just as well the British don’t appoint someone in charge of NI with the same views today isn’t it?”

    We are far too spoiled and dependent on Westminster. We are a bunch of spongers and I wish we would have someone a bit more like him assigned to NI.

    “How many billion is the British taxpayer currently providing to keep NI afloat?


    Way too much, especially to support the unnecessarily expensive sectarian system that we have in place at present.
    A fiscal axe should be taken to it all; a brutal, cold axe and if that means SF have to merge a few Protestant & Catholic schools together, SpAds lose their wages and Orange parades have to pay for they trouble that the cause then so much the better.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    “And yet that was the only thing in my comment you responded to. Instead of the substance of my comment. Why was that?”
    Cos I’ve been typing on my phone only since Saturday (up until this morning) and these things take time.
    I thought against pursuing the matter to avoid looking liking like a psycho and am now ignoring the missus on a wee holiday break who now thinks I am a psycho for typing all of this.
    Normal services will resume shortly.

  • Zeno

    I see no point in answering those questions since I am not defending the UVF who were a sectarian murder gang like the PIRA. The IRA were not formed to defend the Catholic Community and ended up killing more Catholics than the main loyalist sectarian murder gang.
    They won if their target was fancy well paid jobs. They lost if it was anything else.

  • gendjinn

    You made an accusation, it is incumbent on you to back up your statement with evidence.

    Point out my comments that advocate the shooting in the head of wounded British soldiers lying on the ground.

    When you can’t you will withdraw your baseless, vile accusation and apologise. But you will do none of these things because you are employing an SOP Unionist troll tactic.

  • gendjinn

    No worries, better off spending time with real people than talking heads on the internets. Enjoy the time with the spousal unit.

  • Greenflag 2

    Good post AG . There were also minor famines in the 18th century . The 1741 famine in Ulster was partially responsible for the mass emigration to the US . The then Irish Government in Dublin did a lot to alleviate that famine . Even so many died . Whats not generally known is that the 1816 famine was precipitated by the volcanic explosion on Tambora (indonesia ) in 1815 . The average world temperature for that year was 1 degree lower .Some 65,000 people are estimated to have died in Ireland mostly of diseases directly related to food shortages and extreme poverty .

    Although the Irish famine was primarily caused by the potato blight – the fact that the country was the most densely populated in Europe at the time was also a factor . As was the land ownership system with its multiple layers up to seven on some estates between the owner of the land and his hierarchy of rent collectors . The Irish cottier of the time had to pay for the seven layers of middlemen who preyed on his labour . Like todays wage slaves there was nothing left over to save for the proverbial rainy day and there was no social welfare .

    The British Government at the time was also concerned about rising levels of violence and attacks on property and business owners in then industrialising England . The last thing they needed in 1844 was major food shortages in England . The starving would have been too close to home and had already demonstrated a desire for radical reform in the economy and politics . The Chartist mass demonstrations in the late 1830’s and 1840’s showed that revolution and an overthrow of the monarchy was not to be discounted .

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartism

    Laissez faire espoused today by the neo conservatives was the economic doctrine of the time . India lost 27 million as food was exported from the country . In the 1960’s some 30 million are estimated to have died in the South China famine . Mao Tse DOng refused Nixon’s offer of grain as he could not admit that communism could’nt feed the people . Today in North Korea the only section of this stunted population that gets fed is the military .

    Laissez faire without government intervention is a recipe for future famines , wars , revolutions and worse . While market economics and free trade has improved the lives of billions its been accompanied in the west ( not only ) by rising levels of income inequality . When 35% of Americans have no savings and another one third are living from week to week and the 1% grab more each year then the words of new British Nobel Economics prize winner Angus Deaton should be heeded . They are putting ‘democracy ‘ at risk .

    Lets hope they don’t wait for blood in the streets as they usually do 🙁

  • Greenflag 2

    Indeed gendjinn . Orwell’s personal experience in Burma and his later Spanish Civil War combat experience gave him enough first hand experience to see through false ideologies and nationalist extremisms .

    One wonders what Orwell would make of the current NI situation ? A plague on both their houses perhaps ? Ironically he was hired for the BBC by Brendan Bracken , Churchill’s MInister for Information who later became Orwells inspiration for the Ministry of Truth . Bracken one of Churchill’s hooligans as they were called was a nephew of one of the founders of the GAA from Tipperary and had been despatched to Australia at age 15 for being an unruly wild brat . He returned from the Antipodes and somehow cajoled his way into the upper echelons of the Conservatives and was one of those who persuaded Churchill to go for the leadership and confront Chamberlain ..
    I guess we can all be grateful that Winston Churchill succeeded . Winston Smith on the other hand was left in limbo neither here nor there.

    ‘Do not imagine that you will save yourself, Winston, however completely you surrender to us. No one who has once gone astray is ever spared. And even if we chose to let you live out the natural term of your life, still you would never escape from us. What happens to you here is forever.

    Sounds like Pyongyang 2015

  • Zeno

    Strawman argument. Your worship of one terror gang over another is the problem There used to plenty of cheerleaders like yourself. Thankfully they are dying out.

  • Greenflag 2

    Oddly enough while I despair of current NI political unionism of the DUP/UUP ilk I have a certain sympathy for the 1914 -1920 brand of Unionism . Yes its true they imported arms from the Kaiser and carved out what it seemed would give them permanent exclusion from a Catholic dominant rest of Ireland and set up a Protestant state for a protestant people while RCs were relegated to second class citizenship . Nonetheless their fears of being Rome ruled were not entirely unfounded as we from the Republic have come to see in recent decades . More important though would have been their fears for economic security . Access to the then British Empire market was vital for the larger industries of Belfast and the surrounding area .

    A corollary today might be to envisage the Irish Republic opting to vote to leave the EU to join ( assuming the UK opts out of the EU in next years referendum ) a new British Free Trade area comprising the UK and ?? wherever .

    Irish voters would I’m vote for the status quo of the EU with access to a market of 500 million plus consumers .

    With the decline of British industry from the mid 1970s the heart of the NI economy has been cut out and nothing has replaced it at least on a scale that would make the region less public sector dependent . Consequently the local politicians can only offer crumbs which they can only gather from what drops from any largesse from the UK’s south east .

    Adapt or die as some Darwinian put it . (the die is meant metaphorically and not literally ) and refers to species not individuals which is what nature has done for aeons and is with a few fortuitous geological accidents enabled the species homo sapiens to come into existence . Whether we engineer our own demise or nature does it for us is a moot point 😉

  • James7e

    Well, since your comments are apparently locked, that would be difficult to do without trawling through dozens of comment sections to actually find a few of your more bigoted sectarian rants – so I won’t be doing that.

    You can prove me wrong simply by agreeing with my condemnation of the IRA shooting unarmed soldiers and policemen as the tactic of pathetic cowards. But of course we both know you won’t do that.

  • Greenflag 2

    ‘Too much history of the malignant kind has ensured divisions that I can’t see being resolved.”

    Which is why I once thought that a fair repartition of NI by a neutral international agency would have been the best /final solution . Winston Churchill once commented that the Americans have to make the wrong choice 10 times before they finally get it right . In regard to British rule in Ireland in particular since 1800 it seems that British Governments eventually make the right decision but always 20 to 30 years too late . Catholic Emancipation promised in 1801 was’nt delivered until 1829 due not to the British Government but to King George’s anathema to the very concept . Pitt resigned and Cornwallis was packed off to India . Instead of moderate Unionism getting behind reform in 1969 they allowed the wildmen to take over and thus gave birth to the Provisionals . They could have had voluntary power sharing with the ‘nice ‘ SDLP in 1972 but instead the nutters forced Heath to shut down Stormont . For 25 years they farted around in circles getting nowhere while SF built their political machine . By 1998 the SDLP were so weakened and emasculated that SF replaced the former and now the DUP are forced to share power with SF . Always too little and too late as if somehow the future will not come but it does continually and each time a new era /decade opens their new state is worse than their last but somehow or so it appears SF remains vibrant and growing and ever younger and more numerous .

    Anyone can see the pattern here .Rocket science it is’nt . What we have is an introverted , backward looking somewhat paranoid political ideology which has nowhere to go -no allies in the western world bar a few eccentrics among creationists and the ilk .

    A quantum leap is needed to take this forsaken community into a secure future . Alas their leaders seem to me incapable of creating or fostering (no pun intended Arlene ) the conditions that would take them out of the ever narrowing cul de sac of political extinction .

    Still nihil desperandum n’est ce pas

  • John Collins

    Chris
    ROI Protestant population in 1923 – 8% not 23%

  • gendjinn

    Baseless accusations, can’t provide evidence. Can’t even cite a single “bigoted sectarian rant”.

    Entirely as I predicted.

    Game. Set. Match. Goodnight.

  • gendjinn

    History truly is inter-connected in the weirdest ways.

    Although Chamberlain gets a bit of a raw deal. He did go around the commonwealth leaders in ’38 and each of them told him they would not back an ultimatum against Hitler. But they spent the next year tooling up so in ’39 they were in a position to support him in the DoW on Germany.

  • Zeno

    “Your over the top hyperbole and desperation to prove the PIRA were the really evil ones on the other hand does show bias on your part.”

    It would really help if you could read. I have described both the UVF and the IRA as sectarian murder gangs. I have also never claimed that the IRA killed more Catholics than loyalists. Pay attention.

  • John Collins

    Chris
    You figures are plain wrong. The Protestant population in the ROI in 1923 was 8%, and definitely not 25%.

  • John Collins

    Thrived???. In 1800 there was 5 million people in the island Of Ireland. At that time there was 15 million in the nearby island of Britain. By 1922 there was 4 million in Ireland and 38 million in Britain. We thrived alright.

  • John Collins

    As pointed out above your figures are poor rubbish.

  • Chingford Man

    “Informed Englishman” = someone who is as blinkered in his attitudes as you have proved to be in this thread?

  • gendjinn

    “Certainly, I have often criticized apologists for the IRA (of which there are many on this site – likes of John Collins, with his trademark ineloquent smirking comments, and the usually irate Gendjinn spring to mind),”

    Contemptible. You truly do operate in a pure fact free zone.

    Everyone here now has the measure of precisely what you are and it is utterly contemptible.

  • Greenflag 2

    No its not an unfair assessment .As always on these threads the topic almost always ends up with themuns and usuns and harking back to ancient and not so ancient wrongs . Just to be clear re the original topic i.e the 1996 murder in Germany . -as I understand it – the German Government was not a party to the 1998 Agreement and thus has the responsibility to attempt to bring those who committed the crime to justice – German justice . I don’t see any problem with that . Its an internal matter for Germany.

    At the same time I take Anglo Irish’s point that the SF bashing in this case has nothing to do with concern for justice for the murdered German but just another up yours Ivan from usuns to themuns . I know that is not the case with all unionist posters but some seem to have a track record . Childish really but thats the way it is .

    Where there is law there is injustice and where there is no law there is even more injustice .

    The GFA was and is as good as it gets . The alacrity and unanimity which both the DUP and SF defeated an attempt to rein in SPAD compensation just shows how fast the politicians can move when their financial interests are threatened .

    United in greed -divided in grief and everything else 🙁

  • Greenflag 2

    My old man had many favourite sayings.
    One that comes to mind in the context of the above is

    ‘Those that don’t care are made care sooner or later ‘

    Before communism collapsed in Hungary one of the more common quips being made by the political opponents of the regime in relation to then government /regime propaganda was

    ‘ My eyes don’t see what I hear and my ears don’t hear what I see ‘

    I think Orwell would have understood their predicament .

    Seems to me that political unionism stopped hearing a century ago and its eyesight has been on the decline for the past 40 years 🙁 As for it’s political acumen and outreach to win more of the RC community to it’s cause ? Hopeless .

  • Zeno

    I see you have toned down the cheer leading. Well done, but you seem to be trying to invent some scenario where I am supporting loyalist paramilitaries so you can condemn me for that.
    It’s not working,

  • Zeno

    Fawning and cheer leading are far from mutually exclusive.
    What preference (of mine) is blindingly obvious? I have said the UVF were a sectarian murder gang. I am making no defense of any of them. The same applies to all those who murdered innocent people because of their religion including the PIRA.

  • Zeno

    “Any chance some evidence has come to hand with regard to those 790 protestants killed by the IRA that you conjured up out of your sectarian imagination?”

    How many times do you want me to post the same link for you?
    How could I possibly conjure it from my imagination? Do you think I built a website just so I could post a link to it?
    Does it not suit your narrative that the IRA murdered Protestants?
    Did the IRA have their own equivalent of the Shankill Butchers?
    Not that I know of. Did they kidnap, torture, murder and “disappear people” like Jean Mc Conville? Did they use people as human bombs? Yes.

  • Reader

    And after 93 years of full independence, including the age of the tiger, you are still exporting surplus population. Your stay-at-home population has not even started to catch up with GB.
    Does that mean you are, or are not, thriving?

  • mickfealty

    Bit off topic lads? [Trolling each other does not qualify as legitimate comment under the rules]…

  • mickfealty

    BE WARNED!

  • John Collins

    Reader
    Since 1922 when our population was about 2.5 million it has increased to almost 4.7 million. The mainland has increased from 38 million to 64 million which in proportion is actually a smaller increase. At least it has not halved as it did in the last 80 years of GB rule

  • Alan N/Ards

    It’s seems that you have forgotten about Operation Harvest, Anglo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Campaign_(Irish_Republican_Army)

  • Zeno

    It’s a bit difficult when your profile page is private.

    You have said…….

    “The IRA, a group of paramilitaries who resisted the bigoted sectarianism of a gerrymandered political group who were/are in thrall to a foreign government,”

    (That’s fawning.)

    “PIRA,(were) attempting to remove the influence of a separate state over a part of their country.”

    That’s justifying their actions. By the way, it’s not their country.

    “They are accused of killing 130 protestants in sectarian motivated attacks, which is completely reprehensible but doesn’t compare with the 735 ‘loyalist’ sectarian murders.”

    Why did you phrase it that the IRA were “accused” ?
    Why say “sectarian motivated ” ? It looks like an attempt at trying to make it sound not just as bad as ‘loyalist’ sectarian murders.” which you are pretty clear on. No suggestion that they were “accused of involvement in sectarian motivated attacks”

    That’s you trying to make the IRA look good.

    You also claimed the IRA won.

    That’s cheer leading.

  • Zeno

    “Before 1968 total protestant hegemony, many Catholic/Nationalists denied a vote, some unionists with as many as six votes.”

    One Man One Vote in local elections was brought in before the PIRA existed.

    “No possibility whatsoever of a UI at any future date.”

    There was more possibility than there is now. In 1968 20% of Protestants expressed an interest in a United Ireland. That number is under 2% now.

    The Scottish Nationalists won the right to a referendum without murdering anyone. The IRA didn’t win any right to a referendum.

    So what did the IRA win again?

    The rest of your post is just plausible deniability.

  • Alan N/Ards

    “Sinn Fein know that they have achieved what they set out to achieve, not as they wanted it, with immediate effect but 30 years down the line it is going to happen”.

    Was it worth all those innocent lives being lost? Only a mad man would think so!

  • Zeno

    “Britain wants to get rid, ”

    That’s the latest in a long lone of republican mantras. They pump billions and billions into NI. Their soldiers died on the streets here. They won’t even allow a referendum. If they wanted rid as you say, it would be long gone.
    Clutch another straw.

  • Chingford Man

    It’s your opinions that are the problem, not the facts, and it would be a waste of my time to tell you why.

  • John Collins

    James
    My comments may well be ineloquent but I have consistently condemned violent thugs of all hues. However when inaccurate statements are made I have often put people right, by quoting arguments backed with figures to support my points of view. I have never in my 65 years apologised for cowardly bombers. Please stick to the facts. Anyway James why don’t you stand your ground and contest the issues and not run away to another quiet little secluded spot to bewail my ineloquence.

  • James7e

    I see. Are you saying, then, that you agree with my opinion that the IRA were a cowardly bunch?

  • John Collins

    I have never said any different. I feel exactly the same about their equally thuggish loyalists counterparts, who many would contend were at least as cowardly they knew that most of the people they attacked would be unarmed. The brave men that shot the unarmed Bernedette Devlin were every bit as cowardly as any nationalist terrorist-absolutely no difference.
    James, as a trained historian, I have however freely made the point that what is now the ROI was going nowhere under GB and the stagnation of its population during the period of the Act of Union is a powerful indicator of the failure of British rule in Ireland.

  • John Collins

    James, without any ‘smirking’, which part of the first sentence of my last contribution do you not understand? (Incidentally I would never use the collective noun ‘bunch’ to describe vicious murderers. It sounds almost ‘cuddly’ and far too placid a description for any of these groups.) I would also refer you to the third sentence of said contribution

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Howdy. Back from the enforced relaxation…

    For what it’s worth here’s my two cents on your post regarding An Gorta Mor:

    I read the links thoroughly and am still of the opinion (even more so) that it was not a genocide as in an act with an intention of wiping out a group because of who they were.

    There are certainly many labels I would attach to the episode such as incompetent, misguided, mad, inept, arrogant, indifferent to suffering and a few more besides but not an act of trying to wipe out Paddy (I include myself, family and ancestors in the Paddy bracket btw).

    The second link is interesting and actually sings from a similar hymn sheet to myself regarding the curse of free market economics (I’m becoming more and more left wing every year) and other than throwing the word ‘genocide’ about a few times it doesn’t really say why it was a genocide, it just explains the misguided mindset and consequences of a free market.

    The third link is awful.

    I’ve had it thrown at me a few times which makes me think there are people who may believe it.

    Given my lack of a life I might just blog about it, exploding each paragraph one by one.

    My favourite parts are these: “Economists and historians are disqualified if their published work on the events of 1845-1850 covers up the British army’s central role therein. Such individuals lack the standing to participate in this truth-quest.”

    Or in laymen’s terms “disagree with me and you are not fit to be heeded”

    And

    “To our knowledge nobody else has ever published the above arithmetic or named the food removal regiments and battleships. Evidence that other truth-telling accounts exist would be greatly appreciated.”

    An admission that he has little proof.

    Sorry, I see why you can believe what you do because it is a disgrace that an allegedly civilized (the ‘most’ civilised as she would have seen herself) would be so cold to the suffering of its poor. But we know that Victorian Britain was very cruel to its poor as the Victorian slums of London attest to.

    They also had to draught in the army to Scottish ports for the exact same reasons. A cruel irony in Scotland is that things would have been much worse were it not for the earlier Highland Clearances which have more of a claim to the title genocide than An Gorta Mor.

    They’d let Londoners live in their own filth and they’d let Irish starve.

    That is a harsh indictment, but not one of genocide.