Why so few online unionist bloggers, commentators etc..?

Good piece from O’Neill at the Open Unionism blog, which questions why there are so few online unionist commentators as opposed to an increasing number of nationalists… This is a question I’ve seen raised elsewhere in recent times, but O’Neill’s blog is the first sustained attempt at an answer that I’ve seen… Here’s an extensive clip from the middle of his blog, where I think he makes his strongest points:

Republicans are born intelligent communicators, Unionists are naturally tongue-tied thickos?

It’s a stereotype (generally promoted by republicans of course!) that we can not compose any kind of coherent argument which could convince a neutral of the benefits of our cause.  In contrast everyone else in the world loves the witty patter of Irish Republicans abroad; why, there us even a street named after Bobby Sands in Tehran! (Opposite a McDonalds rather bizarrely). The stereotype is nonsense; outside a very small section of Irish America and hard-left Euro hipstertom, no-one gives a toss anymore about what is happening in Northern Ireland.

But, still, where Republicans have been much more advanced than Unionism is in recognising the importance of selling a narrative, be it through the MSM or online. This occasionally manifests itself in the downright nastiness of sabotaging the Victims of the Kingsmills Massacre Wikipedia page, but more often than not it takes the more innocent and acceptable form of flooding Twitter, Facebook and political websites with their version of the story.

Sinn Fein does have the finance to set up a very effective media policy, but more importantly their typical supporter online tends to hold a more homogeneous set of beliefs and also to be much more unquestioning of party PR and propaganda than the typical Unionist. A united front, all singing from the same hymnbook, may not make for sparkling debate but that is besides the point for the party managers and their unquestioning zealots.

It’s not cool to fight the culture war?

Kind of following on from point 3), it is a definite strand in Sinn Fein and wider Republican strategy to move the constitutional debate away from economics and governance to the more grubby sectarian topics where they genuinely believe that they somehow hold the higher moral ground.

The fact that many if not most of them are fighting this culture war from a nakedly sectarian and ethno-nationalist stance proves the hypocrisy of that belief and I am actually quite proud that mainstream pro-Union folk tend to give the nil-sum debates on Catholic/Protestant demographics, the Orange Order, the GAA, “who threw the first brick” and the like the wide berth.

But, having said that, simultaneously Unionists are also walking away from the more secular sector of the online debate because they believe that it’s impossible to participate even there without being dragged into a sectarian gutter by those with a less honourable agenda.

The only slightly disappointing thing he ends with is the sense that following his admission that Unionism is losing the online game, he finishes with a sense that it’s not a game worth playing anyway… Clearly nationalists feel differently, as does Northern Ireland’s mainstream media which particularly uses Twitter and Facebook to track and take account of shifting opinion…

Some party led efforts can smack of astroturfing. Note the number of commenters on Journal.ie who have established twitter accounts they appear not use, who tend towards a single view on threads that then subsequently diversify…  Getting the damaging first word in is a tried and tested technique we’ve seen in evidence here since the start.

Yet there has, in the last year or two, been an emergence of a small group of more independently minded nationalist blogs which provide new spaces for free thinking… For me this is by far the most valuable outcropping of the broader nationalist online lifeforce.

What O’Neill does not reflect upon what is, at times, a concomitant tendency within the mainstream media to give Sinn Fein a bye ball on some of its senior difficulties in government, whilst leaping at almost any chance to get at their partner in OFMdFM…

Although that may also point to the other problem unionism has, in its own profound tendency towards fissuring whilst nationalism has a preference towards consolidation. AKA, the ‘hell slap it into them’ syndrome…

In the latter case, the common line up to now (it was unionism’s fault) has been easier (and more popular) to adopt…

But the truth is that new media is the new networked mainframe… As I wrote of Gerry Adams’ second outing on Twitter in February this year

…networks are groups of belonging. People who like Gerry and what he has to say will stick around and boost his capacity to amplify.

The question of whether or not it shifts votes is moot. And as I have been saying since our first election nearly ten years it misses the point. People are not dumb, they know what and who they like. Stuff goes viral amongst well stocked networks.

No politics is smarter than its own content, but it is well past time that unionism (and everyone else) began investing in developing their own broad networks of opinion…

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  • @Am G.,

    I looked at the designs. I think there is something to be said for including the Red Hand of Ulster because it is so tied historically to the province, even if used and abused by one community. This can be offset by using the green color prominently–I would go for a green and white saltire with the Red Hand in the center.

  • Am Ghobsmacht: If it’s standard practice to address a new commenter on Slugger by their initials, then I can only say that I find the standard practice to be quite rude. Subsequently calling me “Paul_David_Robinson” is sarcastic, and if you don’t wish to patronize perhaps in your very first interaction with someone you might like to refrain from saying things like “you’ve lost a couple of points straight off the bat”.

    There’s no need to be snarky. Perhaps we can make a fresh start:

    Thanks for offering to look through the Progressive Youth document. We welcome critical feedback on our ideas (and they are only ideas).

    My personal opinion is that Northern Ireland should have a new flag, however I happen to quite like the Ulster Banner and for that reason have placed it on my personal website.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Very well

    You might regard it as rude but it is the way here.

    It may well be more courteus to do it your way, perhaps it’s worth looking into.

    There was no sarcasm intended whatsoever.

    I simply cut and pasted your name.

    That aside, can I just call you Paul? Or what would you prefer?

    The fresh start is a good idea.

    So, on that note, I’m glad to hear that you believe that we need a new flag too.

    At one stage it was a very lonely stance to take.

    Incidentally, I wasn’t criticising your page, I have no issue with you using it on your page, you’re comfortably a self professed loyalist and the Ulster Flag is a Loyalist symbol (or perceived to be, no matter), so it stands to reason that you’d use it for yourself as you’re not representing others on your personal page, so to speak.

    I’ll gladly look at the documents, probably when I get back from work in a couple of weeks.

    Anyhoo, I’ve side tracked us all terribly again…

  • “Paul” is fine, thanks. Of course, the manner in which you entered “Paul_David_Robinson” into the comment box is irrelevant, but if you say no sarcasm was intended then so be it. My apologies.

    I find it difficult to understand “you’ve lost a couple of points straight off the bat by just looking at your web page” as not criticizing my page, but, again, I’ll take your word for it.

    I am not sure how much support my position has within loyalism or unionism generally. Of course, I would also want the Union Flag to be flown here and I would fight any narrative that would try to in any way sully the Ulster Banner.

    Good luck with your work; I’ll look forward to hearing from you in the future.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Cheers

    FYI, my poor grammar tends to be my undoing and the major cause for clashes.

    I needa work on it…

    All the best Paul

  • Morpheus

    Paul, why do Progressive Youth provide the “The Green Book training manual of the Provisional IRA” to their members?

  • Morpheus, I am not sure how strict Slugger is about staying on topic, but you are welcome to email me.

    Alas, in Northern Ireland we are still dealing with the legacy of the Troubles. As stated in the manifesto, young people may not remember that period, so historical education is a priority. The Green Book is a primary source. No such document exists for loyalism, but we use the next best thing, the Principles of Loyalism. This leads to studying the Good Friday Agreement. Again, as stated in the manifesto, this will allow us to see how present day movements in Republicanism and Loyalism have evolved.

    Why do you ask?

  • HeinzGuderian

    Wet your finger again Mick, and stick it up as high as you can get it.
    Now, how many of our nat/rep commentators would openly support cowardly, murder gangs, as opposed to their Unionist counterparts ? 🙂

  • Ulster Press Centre

    This post seems to have been missed on the previous page so I’ll post it again:

    .

    Here’s the classic example of Slugger’s pro-Nationalist bias in it’s blogging roster.

    In the past week we’ve had:

    Yet another nakedly sectarian attack on a cricket pitch in the North West (cricket being a sport played mostly by protestants). This attack brings back terrifying memories of those who witnessed the co-ordinated campaign against the cricket facility in Lower Ormeau – forcing the club to sell the land to a developer who built homes solely for catholics. A classic case of ‘Prods Out – Catholics In’.

    FOUR consecutive days of far-right, catholic fundamentalist hate crimes against the Apprentice Boys hall in Londonderry.

    An attempted pogrom on the small, isolated protestant enclave of Suffolk in west Belfast. Over 100 armed youths attacking innocent families, children and elderly pensioners in an organised attempt to drive them from their homes.

    Now, how do you think the Slugger home page would currently look if these attacks had instead been carried out on a GAA ground, a catholic church and the Short Strand???

    This is the problem this site has if it has any intention of being viewed as a neutral space. If someone farts in the direction of Short Strand or Ardoyne Chris Donnelly and John O’Neill have countless blogs up before the smell has even dissipated.

    We’ve had a week of organised, anti-protestant, far-right hatred, bigotry and attempted ethnic cleansing across Northern Ireland and there hasn’t been a mention of it on this site.

    What’s going on Mick???

  • 6crealist

    UPC,

    what evidence do you have that the vandalism at Eglinton was committed by those with sectarian motives? In any case, you’re entirely wrong: in many places throughout the north-west, like Eglinton, Sion and Strabane, cricket in the preserve of Catholics, including several family members of my own.

    With regard to the “attempted pogrom” in west Belfast: this was a disgusting attack carried out by drunken, thuggish youths leaving a house party, but a pogrom it was not. Enough with the melodrama, ok? Chill man.

    As for Derry: yep, scumbags and Protestant-haters, no doubt. But as for the “far-right, catholic fundamentalist” line: jog on. The filth committing those attacks probably haven’t seen the inside of a Catholic church since they were baptised.

    Look forward to your evidence that the mindless vandalism at Eglinton was committed by sectarian thugs, whether they were Catholic or Protestant, in what is a completely ‘mixed’ village. Cheers.

  • 6crealist,

    I can confirm what you say about cricket in the north-west.
    Some commentators show themselves to be bigoted misinformers (to be kind) or straightforward liars (to be less kind).

  • 6crealist

    Cheers Joe, the guy’s hysterical.

    fwiw, here are news links to incident in Eglinton – no suggestion whatsoever that this had a sectarian edge; in fact, knowing Eglinton as well as I do, it’s far more likely to be the work of cross-community thugs.

    http://www.u.tv/News/Cricket-pitch-vandalised-ahead-of-final/700ae244-731a-4de9-bf4b-0f21cc2fac41

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-23431550

    I’ve spent manys a Saturday afternoon lazing in the spring sunshine at the boundary. In the UTV video, the club secretary says: “we’re a totally mixed club religion-wise, race-wise…”

  • Ulster Press Centre

    The only reason it wasn’t reported as sectarian is because the club spokesman is probably too afraid of further attacks to label it such.

    You might not know that the attempted anti-protestant pogrom in Suffolk was originally reported by the press as ‘house party out of control’ until Ruth Patterson and Brian Kingston released statements about it.

    Of course, I’m just being paranoid that the Lower Ormeau cricket ground (used almost exclusively by protestants) was repeatedly firebombed until the club were forced to sell the land (which was bought immediately by a developer to build social housing for catholics). That never really happened, did it? The cricket ground’s still standing isn’t it???

  • Thanks for the links 6crealist. Joe Doherty was interviewed on the UTV one. He was the youngest who played on the same team as me when we were kids. Someone nicknamed him “Poker” because he always poked at the ball. The nickname remained right into adulthood. He was a great wee player.

  • carl marks

    Ulster Press Centre (profile)
    28 July 2013 at 10:33 pm

    “The only reason it wasn’t reported as sectarian is because the club spokesman is probably too afraid of further attacks to label it such.”
    Of course you have no proof of this, but that never stopped you before!

    “You might not know that the attempted anti-protestant pogrom in Suffolk was originally reported by the press as ‘house party out of control’ until Ruth Patterson and Brian Kingston released statements about it.”

    And of course Ruth and Brian are both known for their impartiality (again the oul proof thing raises its ugly head) in these matters,
    Really UPC it’s easy to understand why there are so few unionist Bloggers, who in their right minds would want to be associated with the nonsense you come out with!

  • 6crealist

    UPC: where did I comment about the Lower Ormeau incident that you allege? That’s right, I didn’t, because I haven’t a clue about it. I don’t know whether it happened or you’re telling lies (again).

    As for your Eglinton conspiracy theory: get a life ffs.

    As for Ruth “thon taigs burn tricolours too, so they do” Patterson, yeah – whatever, great source.

    https://twitter.com/kevinmageebiz/status/361567867440865281

    even the “right-wing, catholic fundamentalist” bbc are in on the anti-Orange conspiracy!!!!

  • carl marks

    H G
    “Now, how many of our nat/rep commentators would openly support cowardly, murder gangs, as opposed to their Unionist counterparts ? :)”

    I know your not really into facts, but check out UPC and DC, they both openly support cowardly murder gangs,
    Now what was your point again?

  • 6crealist

    Joe, as you probably know, the Strabane cricket club is vast majority catholic today, while the Sion is more mixed but still Catholic-majority. I don’t think there’s a more shining example of cross-community cohesion than Sion Mills.

  • DC

    Really UPC it’s easy to understand why there are so few unionist Bloggers, who in their right minds would want to be associated with the nonsense you come out with!

    That’s a bit rich coming from you carl marks, you are the guy that comes on every now and again and makes up stories about former BNP members or prob more correctly fictitious BNP members joining the PUP. nonsense – and even you know it!

  • Yes, 6crealist. I was there the day that Sion sent the West Indies packing.
    When I was 14, the scorekeeper at Strabane let me change the details on the scoreboard, like an apprentice. I gave up going to the Saturday matinee at the Commodore to do it.

  • carl marks

    DC
    Any comment to make about you and UPC being supporters of the UVF a “cowardly Murder Gang”
    And while we are at it i asked you on another thread how it was OK for loyalist flag protesters to block roads stopping people from going to work shopping etc but it’s a basic human right to walk the queens highway when its loyalists walking somewhere, but you didn’t answer
    Care to answer the question!

  • DC

    you see there you go again carl! your train of thought is so off with that accusation that i’m not going to answer you – again.

  • Sometimes I wonder if the commenter “DC” is actually two people posting. Some comments are well reasoned, reasonable even, yet others are a slavish following of a Catholic hating commenter. He even admits to being the (only) person who recommends those bile filled comments.

  • DC

    Joe. i think you’re turning into carl, where or when did i admit to that?

    ok maybe i liked ulster press centre’s study into the conduct of the irish news concerning billy hunter but the guy went away and researched it so it was interesting…

    and UPC’s girlfriend is catholic – so i’ve read…

    maybe you’re on the wind up tonight as well.

  • carl marks

    DC (profile)
    28 July 2013 at 11:18 pm

    you see there you go again carl! your train of thought is so off with that accusation that i’m not going to answer you – again.
    To be honest i wasn’t expecting a answer, how could you possibly justify your confused ideas about the right to walk without showing your bigotry. And since you didn’t answer last time what would make this any different!
    And for the UVF thing i think your previous posts speak for themselves , and UPC researching Billy Hunter, ever notice that UPC refers to BH as the Loyalist ASDA worker, and not the double sectarian murderer that he really was.
    Let’s face it the man lured two workmates to their deaths and UPC “research “ seems to have missed it!

  • “Bellwether interface” kicking off with multiple petrol bomb attacks…

    Submariner (profile)
    27 June 2013 at 11:29 pm

    DC are you a supporter of Loyalist terrorists too? i was wondering who was commending UPCs posts.

    DC (profile)
    27 June 2013 at 11:33 pm

    think again submariner, think again.

  • Greenflag

    Its just business .If you can’t sell it theres no point in making it .Unionism is a product that’s past it’s sell by date and most unionists realize it .The only problem is that there is nowhere else to go given the current economic realities . The UK doesn’t want them -the world abhors their hooliganism and their propagandists are awful . And the Orange Order has zero capacity to adapt to a changing world never mind a changing Northern Ireland .

    Defending the ‘Union ‘ is a thankless task and no good will come from it anyway .

    On the other hand a UI is a generation away IF it ever happens and thus NI remains and will remain in limboland for the foreseeable -unless the younger generation quantum leaps into some alternative political universe as yet unseen .

    But hey it could be worse -at least they’ve stopped killing each other haven’t they ?

  • Ulster Press Centre

    Greenflag: The UK doesn’t want them…

    Our Prime Minister disagrees…

    http://youtu.be/qn9oOIiB8wc?t=1m55s

  • DC

    Joe – that wasn’t me admitting it, submariner was accusing me of commending UPC’s posts and i asked him to think again.

    carl – what you say is correct but there is a thing as structure and agency and NI was and still is a sick society and sectarian attitudes have caused a lot of harm. i don’t think you can blame billy hunter for the mess this place got itself in, he didn’t start the troubles and he didn’t end them either.

    In the social sciences there is a standing debate over the primacy of structure or agency in shaping human behavior. Agency is the capacity of individuals to act independently and to make their own free choices.[1] Structure is the recurrent patterned arrangements which influence or limit the choices and opportunities available.[1] The debate can be contrasted with the “nature versus nurture” debate, which questions whether a person’s physiology (“nature”) or socialization (“nurture”) predominates in the formation of an individual’s identity. In contrast, the structure versus agency debate may be understood as an issue of socialization against autonomy in determining whether an individual acts as a free agent or in a manner dictated by social structure.

    you carl seem to be taking rather bizarrely some sort of thatcherite view, as does alliance on these things if i am correct, that it is up to the individual to sort him or herself out and to just simply walk away from paramilitaries or ignore the sectarian hatred that gets dumped on your door. no such thing as society then all billy hunter’s fault?

    i think it’s too easy for me to indulge in the luxury of moral judgement given my background and relative comfort of not having a lot of bitterness dumped at my door. so that’s why i am interested in hearing the views of ulster press centre, he seems to be around interface areas, he prob understands the tension out there and sectarian hatred on both sides at times, i know i am not among all that. maybe he is a true reflection of just how pissed off and agitated and paranoid people are out there within certain unionist areas? what might be causing that, i know if my property were being golf balled nightly it prob wouldn’t be too long before i was a bit fecked off about things…

    who am i to say there’s no such thing as nail studded potatoes being thrown and who are you to disprove it, unless he videos it coming over then it’s as hard for him to prove it as it is for you to disprove it.

    but so far i am taking him on his word and in listening mode, sure what harm can listening do…

  • OK, DC. If you say that I misunderstood you, then I stand corrected.

  • ayeYerMa

    The first on-topic poster to hit the nail on the head here is ForkHandles (also been putting off posting here as there is too much to say). The fact is that the Unionism vs. Irish Republicanism debate was settled by the overwhelming majority of our local population in 1921, there is little more to discuss on it, and so endlessly repeated pointless lie-filled obsessions over it by Republicans are best ignored. Irish Republicans gained 5/6 of the island, Ulster Unionists respected that fact and the Republican self-determination which it represents, and merely expect the same respect in return for that tiny tiny territory in the remaining 1/6 in return.

    As for the “Troubles” most view it as little more than a bunch of criminals engaged in decades of murder and destruction that is best buried in the past where it belongs, and have not placed terrorist politicians in power and so do not need to endlessly try and glorify and lie to justify any past glorious “armed struggle”. An “armed struggle” which had been ongoing by Republicans since before Northern Ireland’s birth, and which the perpetrators of such will go to all lengths to justify with all manners of subterfuge, outright lies, and unreasonable distorted context-free slurs against those in the Northern Ireland government who had to defend against such terror (the latter being a tradition which continues in rags such as the Irish News to this day).

    Then there is the fact that the internet does not respect democratic jurisdictions. Just look at the number of topics on here concerning the Republic, and look at the number of southern Republicans posting who somehow think that Northern Ireland is their business, as well as number of ex-pats and residents from North America (whose only main real contact with our politics here is through much of this unrepresentative rubbish on the internet rather than the reality on the ground). The fact is that given our tiny population of less than two million people, online a local majority is often outnumbered by an often ignorant bunch of people from outside our jurisdiction.

    When it comes to how Northern Ireland is governed and day-to-day issues all the rubbish spoken online makes little difference. However, one aspect which this does cause me concern is the level at which unchallenged mendacious Republican propaganda and lack of context on many internet posts are causing a vast distortion of the historical narrative that is presented to many. The Newsletter had a good piece on this a few months ago (which also discusses this topic and the boredom and “fatigue” of Unionists in discussing these pointless topics):

    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/maze-must-not-be-part-of-the-rewriting-of-ulster-history-1-5021809

    My main problem is not with Republicans as such, as I expect little else and most Unionists know rightly how dishonest many Republicans are and that the best tactic when dealing with a dishonest opponent is to either to oppose them vigorously or (as is increasingly the case) ignore them. The problem is with the self-labelled so-called “liberals” and many of my fellow middle class (as DC rightly posts) who are so obsessed with wanting to please everyone and avoid verbal conflict at every opportunity that with a misplaced sense of politeness agree with some of the distorted Republican lies for the sake of not arguing. These lies then propagate insidiously amongst other ignorant members of the middle classes, and by low intelligence journalists (in papers such as the Belfast Telegraph — something which my whole family used to read but no longer do as has deteriorated in quality significantly, much of which I attribute to an non-Northern Irish editor) — journalists will adopt such narratives as reasonable, with some so dimwitted when online to adopt e.g. Wikipedia as a source of information (which frankly has a narrative on NI which reads like it came straight from An Phoblact).

    Unionist politicians will indeed have the best long term benefit in focusing there efforts on good governance for all, while trying not to be distracted by this nonsense (as I believe is the case). However, that Newsletter article makes some very good points. The fatigue in endlessly discussing this nonsense is reasonable, ignoring propaganda is indeed a correct approach for the sake of initial peace, and it must be understood that this is what is happening at present (and I thank Mick for raising awareness of such). However, longer term wider non-party-political Unionists must get off their backsides and address such distortions of our past head on — we have the perfect networks (such as the Orange Order as one) to tell the Unionist side of the story — the problem which needs to addressed is that the elderly leadership in many such organisations (who were the very ones there to know the truth when much of our recent history occurred) are the ones who are also out of touch with the modern digital age.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    I….

    I….can….

    *pull yourself together AG, you can do this….*

    I…can…kind….of…seeee
    UPC’s point of view.

    There, I said it.

    Again, I wrap it all up in the big insulating layer of perception.

    Partly thanks to our politicians keeping us in a constant state 1641-like anticipation and partly because of papers like the Newletter and, indeed, in part thanks to Republicans sometimes doing exactly what we fear e.g. the old confessional state thing, some of us are constantly on the look out for the ‘End of Days’.

    This, coupled with trying to mimic some of SF’s tactics, has seemingly lead to a dawn of ‘Orange-MOPEry’.

    We all know that UPC isn’t very scientific or logical in his approach or arguments (for example, challenging people provide evidence for their conclusions or assertions whilst sometimes defending his own stance with words like ‘probably’ e.g. ” the club spokesman is PROBABLY too afraid of further attacks to label it such…” or that he misses/disregards key points that deserve to be looked at, for example the attacks on Lower Ormeau Cricket club and the developer;
    in NI, developers seem to be blessed with the ‘Pyro Touch’ given the number of buildings that developers want to ‘develop’ somehow always catch fire or attract the attention of arsonists) but that doesn’t mean that some of his grievances aren’t genuine even if they are smothered under a layer of dogma.

    People/computer programs like UPC feel that the tribe has been more or less abandoned to its fate at the hand of the natives and that areas where they are in the minority are more like ‘redoubts’ than places where people can live.

    Ironically, it fastens their resolve to be more bull-headed during ‘Carnival Season’ as defiance is much better than supplication in the eyes of the tribe (FYI, compromising and reducing offensive imagery is seen as supplication).

    Many believe that no one gives a toss about the dwindling/’besieged’ Protestant population yet the world and the ‘leftist media’ were full of sympathy for the poor wee taigs when they were in a tight spot.

    There are several reasons for this:

    1/ No one gives a toss (or at least relatively few, it’ll take more than a youtube clip of PM to convince me of otherwise)

    2/ X number of thousands of educated Protestants have left the tribe, embittered by the tribe’s short shortsightedness and doom-laden trajectory.
    Many of them give a toss but are never listened to, a standard reply is “you left here! You don’t live with what we live with! Stay where you are!”.

    To use UPC’s parlance, “yet more Prods out”…

    3/ The dreadful clockwork like spectacle that happens every year during marching season does not endear many people to the plight of the tribe and ensuring that they are unlikely ever to give a toss.

    Perhaps UPC has a point with regards to the likelihood of a post going up should something happen in the Short Strand, but that brings us (thankfully) back to the topic at hand with regards to the perceived lack of Unionist blogs.

    A number of the Unionists here have a healthy and commendable aversion of MOPEry.

    What passes as a hate crime/pogrom/ethnic cleansing/attack for some people is to others just the “facts of life of living in this shitehole”.

    If I could be so bold as to extrapolate this loathing of MOPEry then it stands to reason than Unionist bloggers won’t be so motivated to write about such things or even less so to BECOME a blogger in the first place.

    I’m afraid attacking themuns is something that we’re going to do as long as we grow up separately from each other and not beside each other in schools

    DAMN IT! I SAID i WOULDN’T MENTION THE SCHOOLS THING…..

  • Ugly Pernicious Comments designed to cause hate and sow division don’t help move us forward away from the dark days.

  • carl marks

    DC
    you carl seem to be taking rather bizarrely some sort of thatcherite view, as does alliance on these things if i am correct, that it is up to the individual to sort him or herself out and to just simply walk away from paramilitaries or ignore the sectarian hatred that gets dumped on your door. no such thing as society then all billy hunter’s fault?

    where did i say it was all Billy Hunters fault (please try to read others peoples posts) you brought up UPC research into the Billy hunter thing and i merely pointed out that his “research” was a load of low standard propaganda and he never mentions the double murder of his workmates or indeed the singing the sash in front of other catholic workmates,
    also im still not getting a explanation from you of why you seem to believe its ok for loyalists for block roads and breakv the law but not OK for the police to enforce the law?

  • Barnshee

    “also im still not getting a explanation from you of why you seem to believe its ok for loyalists for block roads and break the law but not OK for the police to enforce the law?”

    Its a bit like the old Republican saw by which its ok to murder protestants “for Ireland” buy its wholly unacceptable for the AFM protestants to answer in kind

  • carl marks

    Barnshee
    Its a bit like the old Republican saw by which its ok to murder protestants “for Ireland” buy its wholly unacceptable for the AFM protestants to answer in kind

    Now that’s a classic bit of whataboutry, but I’ll play along, please produce evidence were i have said any such thing!
    I of course reply that all I would have to do to make your statement fit localism/unionism is change the words, Republican, protestants and Ireland to loyalists, Catholics and Ulster, both sides talked the same talk and both murdered innocents and took pleasure in it and honoured the people who done it.
    So instead of coming out with that mealy mouthed dodging why don’t one of you fine people answer my question,

  • 6crealist

    With Mick Fealty lending credence to bizarre Virgin Mary statue conspiracies, why do unionist propagandists have to bother?

  • 6crealist

    Look at what the right-wing Catholic fundamentalists are up to now – will this pogrom [sic] ever stop?!?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23481755

    Ulster [sic] Press [sic] Center [megalolz]: any evidence to back up your deeply irresponsible and potentially libellous comments with regard to the Eglinton CC secretary? No? Thought not.

  • carl marks

    ayeYerMa
    If i could perhaps summarise your rather long post in a few bullet points,
    1/ unionists good, republicans bad,
    2/news letter good, Irish news rag,
    3/people who live in NI and disagree with unionist’s dishonest scum,
    4/ people who live outside NI and disagree with unionists, should mind their own business/ and don’t know what they are talking about (proof for this is they disagree with unionists)
    5/ agreement made in 1921 at point of UVF guns is final and lasting and nobody ever can change it.
    Did I leave anything out?

  • Kevsterino

    Is it possible the decline in PUL blog activity coincides with a decline in the lethal Republican movement. Say what you want about these dissident Republicans, but in terms of armed struggle, they are not any match for the Provisional IRA.

    Since Loyalism has always struck me as a reactionary movement (even when preemptive), their political potency appears to fade in an era of diminished threat. It occurs to me the ‘big house’ fellas have no need for them when Republican guns are quiet. This leaves loyalists in a rather helpless position. They hate feeling like nobody listens to them. But they don’t realize being listened to and heeded are two different things.

    I do not envy someone trying to make a case for the loyalist point of view on an open forum, such as this. They have never derived power by putting their point of view across in a logical or cogent manner. They won the day for their point of view by very different means. Now those means (violence and the threat of it) are failing them.

  • Greenflag

    @ upc,

    Greenflag: The UK doesn’t want them…

    Our Prime Minister disagrees…

    Of course .What would you expect in a Conservative & Unionist Party Political Broadcast ? Remember the first three letters in Conservative are Con .They’ve been conning Unionists for so long now that the latter hardly notice it . Some are wising up but most unionists know that they are on the fringe and becoming fringier by the day .

    Who disbanded Stormont ?

    The Conservatives

    Who signed the Anglo Irish Agreement ?

    The Conservatives

    Who supports the mandatory power sharing GFA with the Sinn Fein ?

    The Conservatives .

    Face the facts UPC -They are not going away .

  • Greenflag

    @ kevsterino,

    ”I do not envy someone trying to make a case for the loyalist point of view on an open forum, ‘

    When one sees some of them carrying placards proclaiming ‘Our only crime is loyalty ‘ one wonders ‘loyalty to who and what and why .Certainly not the island they live on or that half of the NI population whose only crime is their loyalty to the island they live on .

  • Kevsterino

    The loyalty of loyalists I’ve found to be very local. eg Tiger’s Bay. Not many who don’t live in that area who appear to care about them.

    When the Provisional IRA declared its armed struggle over, it was like King Kong leaving the island, removing the basis of that primitive island civilization. Loyalists have been rather rudderless ever since.

  • ForkHandles

    Glad to see others are of a similar point of view as me.
    Much more interesting things to do than get involved in ever repeating loops of nonsense 🙂

  • Neil

    It seems an unusual tack for Unionists who comment on slugger continuously to get smug and congratulate themselves for having better things to do. Try and remember the Unionists who have better things to do, make love etc. ain’t the ones commenting on this thread. You’re here all the time.

  • carl marks

    Neil
    Here are a few samples of my favourite bits of this thread
    (Ardoyneunionist)
    As I see it we Unionist’s don’t see our politics and politicians as some form of religion or gods.
    Now this person is either a world champ at irony or bullshitting, wonder how this fits with his support of the OO and his claims to be speaking for the protestant folk of his area.
    Now this one
    (SOS)
    Unionists in the main don’t seem to be energised in the same way (and when they do take to the net their ‘unionist narrative’ is delivered with a supporting cast of eclectic interests).
    You’d almost think they are more comfortable in their own skins.

    Again no thought that as one of our most prolific posters then by his reckoning how uncomfortable is he in his skin? and has he no eclectic interests>

  • Ulster Press Centre

    Greenflag:

    Greenflag: The UK doesn’t want them…

    Our Prime Minister disagrees…

    Of course .What would you expect in a Conservative & Unionist Party Political Broadcast ?

    The dude is the current PM and has promised to fight to keep NI in the UK.

    You might not like it but that is the reality. Keep your tired, incorrect cliches to yourself from now on.

  • Greenflag

    ‘The dude is the current PM and has promised to fight to keep NI in the UK.’

    No more and no less than any other British PM . Par for the course ,

    ‘You might not like it ‘

    Does’nt matter to me one way or the other . But if you know or knew your Irish /British political history you would understand why at the undemocratic foundation of the NI State that the Old Unionist Party insisted on their own local Parliament . And no it was’nt because they would have the local power to disenfranchise and discriminate against Ulster’s nationalists and catholics although that came later as a bonus . It was because they could not trust the British Government of the day not to impose a UI over their heads if push came to shove . Winston Churchill among others supported Home Rule as the best option for keeping all of Ireland within the Union .

    Thankfully -from a Republican viewpoint -Unionists opposed Home Rule .

  • Reader

    Greenflag: But if you know or knew your Irish /British political history you would understand why at the undemocratic foundation of the NI State that the Old Unionist Party insisted on their own local Parliament .
    Reference please. I believe they wanted integration, not devolution.

  • ayeYerMa

    Carl Marks, if the purpose of this thread is to get Unionist views, then why are you surprised that people with generally held Unionist convictions are going to believe their own convictions to be superior? Unionists have nothing to apologise for being… Unionist!

    Ignorant people from outside NI interfering have little respect for democracy or standard diplomacy. With NI by very constitutional definition being Unionist, and the overwhelming section of the population having no problem with that, then it seems that you are a perfect example of one who has been reading too much of this nonsense online to be in touch with reality.

    The agreement in 1921 was signed as a compromise agreed by parties all round — a compromise that benefited Republicans more than Unionists in gaining control of 5/6 of the island. All sides were armed (though unlike the offensive actions of all IRAs, the UVF guns were primarily for defensive purposes against any Home Rule parliament in Dublin (and were also legal due to in 1914 it being legal to defend the Empire in such a manner), as the later actions by Michael Collins later dictated wise to have). Unionists held their side of the bargain; Republicans did not.

    Unionists should not be, and are not interested in keeping compromising after compromising after compromising in one direction just because their opponents cannot keep their word and demand more and more and more until all Unionists have been ethnically cleansed into the sea (as Republicans keep letting slip as their true desire and actions fall well short of true Republicanism). No people in any part of the world would stand for their own elimination — the treaty in 1921 (as well as all subsequent treaties which Seamus Mallon really should have called “1921 Anglo-Irish treaty for slow learners”) is the only thing that protects this and is simply not something up for discussion.

    As for papers, I wouldn’t have solely posted a piece from the Newsletter if the now Dublin-owned and English-edited Belfast Telegraph ever published even a smidgen of representative Unionist opinion any more, but I’m afraid that is very rarely the case. It also does not take a genius (though I’ll make an exception for myself 😉 ) to see that the Irish News engages is more unrepresentative “look at how bad themmuns are” headlines than any other mainstream paper, and I believe is one of single largest stirrers of sectarian hatred that we have in the Province. It seems I am not the only one with DC coming to the same conclusions on the other thread.

  • carl marks

    UPC
    the British PM would sell you spare parts in the blink of a eye how you can place your faith in a man who doesnt even need your vote and doesnt even take running his party here for elections as a idea i dont know , That great British Hero Winston Churchill offered NI to the republic in exchange for submarine pens at killary Harbour.
    and you can bet good money that when the Brits get round to handing the north to where it belongs it will be a tory PM who signs the treaty!

  • odd_number

    Interesting tactic to condemn reporting of sectarianism as sectarianism, but not to condemn the sectarian events reported. Don’t march in circles to the famine song, burn tri-colours and have KAT flags and they can’t report it.

  • mac tire

    Kev: “…on an open forum, such as this…”

    You’ve got to be kidding. Banning IP addresses? Unpublished, non contentious posts? People talking on Twitter and some other social networks about Slugger being undemocratic and unreasonable.

    The evidence is gathering and will make its appearance. I can assure you of that.

  • antamadan

    Ulster accent Irish/Scottish:

    Elderly Gweedore Donegal Gaeltacht native Irish speakers sound like they are talking in a northern accent ‘as-gaeilge’. Does this (surprisingly) suggest that the accent was pre-plantation?

  • Ulster Press Centre

    carl marks: the British PM would sell you spare parts in the blink of a eye how you can place your faith in a man who doesnt even need your vote and doesnt even take running his party here for elections as a idea i dont know…

    And yet the video I provided was of David Cameron asking people in Northern Ireland to vote for his party….

    Stay off the glue a charae.

  • Mc Slaggart

    “David Cameron asking people in Northern Ireland to vote for his party….”

    Was he going to ask them not to vote for his party?

    It says something when a combined Conservative and UUP parties did not get a single MP.

  • Ulster Press Centre

    Mc Slaggart: It says something when a combined Conservative and UUP parties did not get a single MP.

    They received more votes than the SDLP who returned three MPs. To put it simply, they had a bid of bad luck that their vote was spread out too thin.

    It’s not like they flopped.

  • Mc Slaggart

    “They received more votes than the SDLP ”

    I don’t think they did? Are you counting Rodney Connor votes?

    “It’s not like they flopped.”

    Sylvia Hermon

  • Ulster Press Centre

    Yes.

  • Mc Slaggart

    UPC

    The combined UUP/Conservatives and an agreed candidate still did not get a seat.

    You may not think they flopped but see Sylvia Hermon smile on her website….

    http://www.sylviahermon.org/constituency.htm

  • Ulster Press Centre

    They got more votes than another party who returned three MPs – just had a bit of bad luck is all.

  • Mc Slaggart

    “just had a bit of bad luck is all.”

    As a Unionist and in a thread on unionist bloggers, commentators. What bad luck did the combined unionist candidate in Fermanagh and south Tyrone have?

  • Ulster Press Centre

    Bad luck overall – as in across Northern Ireland.

  • Greenflag

    ‘just had a bit of bad luck is all.’

    LOL

    A master of the spin is the bould and ridiculous UPC – Holy Cross never happened and it’s those right wing fundamentalist RC’s who put Virgin Mary statues on bonfires .

    UPC will shortly be in contention for the Goebbels Award based on the ‘evidence ‘ of posts to date .:(

  • Mc Slaggart

    Ulster Press Centre (profile) 30 July 2013 at 12:33 pm

    “Bad luck overall – as in across Northern Ireland.”

    You would need to be more detailed.

    One reason for the loss was Unionists who voted for the nice man of the telly (sdlp). 4 votes loss with a combined Unionist candidate is not one I think you can put down to “Bad luck”.

  • Greenflag

    Reader ,

    ‘ I believe they wanted integration, not devolution.’

    It (integration ) was’nt on offer then just as it’s not on offer now .Despite Mr Molyneux’s and Enoch Powell’s efforts to make NI as British as Finchley neither the Iron Lady nor any previous British Prime Minister has ever considered full political integration as a serious possibility for NI . Their (HMG) preferred political solution was Home Rule and to an extent that has’nt changed except it’s now called mandatory power sharing which will last until such time as it becomes no longer tenable by which time HMG will ‘reluctantly ‘ cut the deadweight Province off so it can pursue an alternative future -hopefully without too much gnashing of teeth .

    In the meantime there is of course ‘repartition ‘ to consider . But it seems that rapidly changing demographics has put an end to that one time possibility .

    Keep right on folks -the road has an ending but there will be quite a few turns yet and nothing is guaranteed except continuing decline and marginalisation .

  • ForkHandles

    Just one last comment. It seems that the nat/rep people still don’t get it.
    Basically, people are no longer bothered to reply to the same old stuff that the nat/reps seems to go on about. Most people in NI are interested in other things. Trying to rope people into conversations about being oppressed because your granddad was ‘killed by English people in the potato famine’ is obvious nonsense to anyone with 2 brain cells. It is just of no interest to people in the 21st century. That’s why there may be a lot of nat/rep bloggers going on about the usual sort of stuff but no one bothering to reply to them.

    That’s about my limit of interest in commenting. Waiting for a subject on slugger to come up that isn’t about backward tribal nonsense. Maybe some current ‘real politics’ from a party trying to improve peoples lives and not from parties that are in a caveman like opposition to eachother….

  • Greenflag

    Well said FH -I’ve just paraphrased your piece to make it more eh cross community friendly if thats the word .A lookback from 2113 AD 😉

    Just one last comment. It seems that the unionist /loyalist people still don’t get it.
    Basically, people are no longer bothered to reply to the same old stuff that the unionists/loyalists seem to go on about. Most people in NI are interested in other things. Trying to rope people into conversations about being oppressed because the Orange Order is not permitted to march where it’s not wanted is obvious nonsense to anyone with no brain cells. It is just of no interest to most people in the 22nd century. That’s why there may be just some unionist /loyalist troglodytes replying to nationalist /republican bloggers going on about the usual sort of stuff.

    ‘Waiting for a subject on slugger to come up that isn’t about backward tribal nonsense.’

    Slugger tries and succeeds but there are those who prefer the ‘old certainties ‘ even now in the 22nd century:(.