Sinn Féin Minister hit by PSNI jeep following Tour of the North

According to reports on twitter, Sinn Féin Minister Carál Ní Chuilín was taken to hospital after being hit by a jeep at Carrickhill following the Tour of the North parade on Friday night. Gerry Kelly was also carried on the bonnet of a PSNI jeep.

Gerry Adams has given some details:

The Belfast Telegraph had reported earlier on the parade, quoting Carál Ní Chuilín herself as she said:

…she was “disappointed” with what she claimed was a “breach of the determination set down by the Parades Commission”. “At the feeder parade there was a breach of the determination set down by the Parades Commission and on the way back as well,” she said. “I mean this has been described as the first significant parade of the parading season and if that’s the start I would ask people to reflect on what they were doing.”

Not exactly a surprise, then.

In an interesting aside, the Irish Independent had already posted on the *largely* peaceful passage of the Tour of the North parade. The page has now been taken down (check out the url in this dead link).

, , ,

  • GEF

    “we all keep voting them back in.”

    Both Gerry K & Caral C will get voted back in by a long shot. Who could replace them in North Belfast for the Shinners? Least both are honest about their membership of the IRA unlike the other Gerry who continues to deny membership.

  • Morpheus

    “Least both are honest about their membership of the IRA unlike the other Gerry who continues to deny membership.”

    If Gerry Adams came clean tomorrow, either through choice or as a revelation in The Boston Tapes (when the word of someone who in life would not be trusted as far as they could be thrown suddenly becomes gospel when they are dead) would it make any difference whatsoever? It will be one more lying politician to add to the list. Big deal.

  • cynic2

    “someone who in life would not be trusted as far as they could be thrown”

    Isnt it strange. I know that ‘all politics ends in failure’ but in SF failure isnt enough.

    For some reason anyone who disagrees with the top cabal is suddenly transformed into a class traitor, unreliable, drunk / mad, lying irrational scumbag who must be shunned by decent society

    Many of the things these people say might be tested by enquiry – for example we are seeing from the snippets released so far that O’Rawe seems right on the Hunger Strike offer

    SF must tank their lucky starts that the Brits are so keen to help their proteges maintain the facade that they wont expose them too much – at least while they continue to administer British Rile in Ireland and keep the natives happy with a bit of political theatre from time to ime

  • cynic2

    ” Least both are honest about their membership of the IRA ”

    ….mind you when you have done so much time as those two it might be hard not to

  • Morpheus

    Depends on your definition of failure really cynic. Second biggest part in Northern Ireland, on track for the First Minister’s position after the next election, political Unionism in turmoil, third biggest party in ROI.

    I don’t know, if they gently push out the ‘old school’ and someone steps up and takes the reigns who doesn’t have blood on their hands (eg. Pearse Doherty for example) then maybe SF 2.0 won’t be in too bad a position.

    From my own perspective I would love for the SDLP to step back up and represent moderate nationalism again but since they are verging on invisible and SF continues to take their middle ground from them then I think SF will continue to be the largest nationalist party from here on in.

  • ForkHandles

    left a bit, right a bit, left a bit……… FLOOR IT….. Wallop!! 🙂

    The chuckies really are top notch entertainment. One minute they’re out playing bumper cars with large vehicles. The next they have John O’Dowd on TV enthralling us with such reasoned and complex debate arguments such as ” Soooo WAT!!”

    Never a dull moment ! 🙂

  • cynic2

    Depends on your definition of failure

    Fair enough. My definition of failure is murdering 2500 people to achieve Irish Unity and ending up polishing seats in Stormont and administering British rule in Ireland where even any Bills they approve have to be signed off by the Queen before they become law, And then finding that opinion polls clearly show so many Catholics don’t want a United Ireland that it will never happen in our liefetimes

    When you lose a war you gte what the victors let you have. They are lucky that the Brits have been so generous – to keep them quiet. Theres nowt like a dollop of cash to settle people.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Yes, Cynic2, that sounds like true failure to anyone who does not think that selling your percieved raison d’être down the river constitutes “Statesmanship.”

  • cynic2

    Sean

    I think we may have different perspectives

    Pursued politically Irish Unity is a fair and noble cause.As a Unionist I would love to debate and discuss it with an open mind

    Pursued violently it becomes a mere power grab by greedy fascists who cannot persuade and therefore want to force.

    At the moment SF still seems in transition from the second to the first. The danger is that we seem stuck in a sort of Northern Irish Weimar Republic where the dissers and their sup[porters cannot face the facts that it was wrong and that the Republican movement lost the war comprehensively. They cry “we wuz robbed” and nurse their grievance dreaming of greater things to come. Yeah. Right boys. But this is not a stable government

  • Morpheus

    Again, mostly all true cynic2 but I disagree with your conclusion that “…so many Catholics don’t want a United Ireland that it will never happen in our liefetimes” based on opinion polls. These polls can be taken seriously when those who are taking part in them know the first thing about what a United Ireland is and what it entails. NO ONE has a clue what a UI would look like in terms of health, education, housing, political representation, taxes, social security etc. None whatsoever. You are free to make assumptions but you can’t back any of them up with cold hard facts.

    Those who take part in the polls are being unfairly asked to give an opinion on something they know absolutely nothing about and they give answers from a position of complete ignorance of the facts and an understandable fear of the unknown. Taking it to a really simple level, would you swap your car for my car without knowing anything about it? I could have a clapped out Skoda or a top of the line Merc but without the facts there is no way you would swap for fear of getting something that is worse than what you have got at the minute even though it could be something better.

    The nationalist parties are really letting down those whom they represent. The SDLP are nowhere to be seen – as usual – and SF’s approach to a UI is to hold Catalonian-style mock border polls in highly partisan areas. SF’s grasp of macroeconomics is extremely poor, as demonstrated by Alex Maskey and the others they have put before the public. Each and every interview has been cringe-worthy to say the least and did absolutely nothing to convince anyone of anything.

    Before you say it, I do not think it is incumbent upon SF to educate the electorate. No matter what SF say or do it will be not be seen as independent and I think at least half the population won’t even look at the analysis for that very reason. Yes SF could do what the OO did and hire (at the tax-payers expense) a firm of ‘consultants’ who will say whatever SF want them say…but what is the benefit to be gained from that? it would be a farcical waste of money, just as the OO report is.

    That is why I advocate an international, independent commission who would work hand-in-hand with the British and Irish Governments to answer all the key questions so the electorate, North and South of border can make an informed decision based on independent facts and not supposition or loaded polls/surveys. I don’t think in a democratic society there is anything to fear from a fully informed electorate voting for what they think is the best option for them and their families and if the Union is as secure as you say then there is nothing to worry about – is there?

  • Morpheus,

    I have read your numerous postings on this issue and I agree totally that that would have to be the minimum first step. But nobody really is prepared to engage with you. Even though such an analysis could possibly show that a UI is not feasible, people on the unionist side seem too terrified that they dare not contemplate, let alone take, that first step.

  • Morpheus

    I know I rabbit on about it Joe but I honestly believe that it is the way forward and I’ll continue to talk about it. I am currently in discussions with a high-ranking SDLP representative about it in the hope that they can get the ball rolling, God knows they need a peaceful, democratic project to show those who voted for them that they still care about the issue because even on their website point number 1 of what they are about reads: “The SDLP believes in a United Ireland. We are the only party with the vision, the standing and the strategy to deliver unity.”

    As you say it could be the case that once the electorate have all the facts then they totally reject the idea of a UI but at least we would know that they have come to that decision from a position of knowledge and understanding of the facts. It’s the unknown that is the problem – it leads to fear and the dark side if you believe in the teachings of Yoda.

    I honestly can’t see the problem with everyone knowing all the facts and then making a decision based on those facts.

  • Reader

    Mister_Joe: I have read your numerous postings on this issue and I agree totally that that would have to be the minimum first step. But nobody really is prepared to engage with you. Even though such an analysis could possibly show that a UI is not feasible, people on the unionist side seem too terrified that they dare not contemplate, let alone take, that first step.
    Why is it our job to take a step that you and Morpheus think may lead to a United Ireland? The UK bid is on the table. NI21 is trying to improve the bid, DUP is trying to freeze it. Morpheus should get on with preparing the UI bid or supporting a party that will do so. There are plenty of nationalist or republican parties in Ireland that he can engage. If he needs an occasional reality check he can talk to his unionist or unicorn friends down the pub.
    As for unionism as a bloc – we’ll watch the outputs and offer some helpful feedback at times.

  • Reader,

    The reason is that the issue is not going away. It should be examined along the lines of what Morpheus suggests which will either put it away or (not likely,i think) demonstrate to those who are currently unionists that they would really be better off in a UI. Otherwise the issue/dispute will continue to fester, poisoning communal relations.

  • If both sides don’t participate in an analysis, then it would be a waste of time. All we would hear from “unionists” would be “bias” if “nationalists” came out with favorable pointers for a UI in a single sided analysis. The analysis would not be the deciding factor, of course. That would be the prerogative of the electorate in a referendum which is the law expressed in the GFA traety.

  • Morpheus

    Reader:

    A political party would not have the access to the inner workings of HMRC or it’s equivalent in ROI – as an example – to accurately determine the economic impact it would have on the all-Ireland economy if all the taxes on goods and services sold in in Northern Ireland went to Dublin rather than London. SF are just a political party, not one of the two Governments who stand behind the GFA which acknowledges “that a substantial section of the people of Northern Ireland, and the majority of the people of the island of Ireland, wished to bring about a united Ireland.” Therefore it is my contention that if the constitutional problem exists – which it obviously does – then it’s incumbent on them to give everyone the independently verified information they need to make an informed decision so we can all move on regardless of the outcome be that as part of the Union, as NI going it alone or a reunified ireland

    The way I see it then end report will put forward what a UI would look like (ie. the judiciary system you would have if it was implemented tomorrow would be A, the agreed political system would be B, the agreed social security system will be C, your DLA payment would be D, your tax will be E etc.) and then the people would be asked if it is for them or not. If they want it then we move forward and deal with it, if we they don’t then we move on and deal with it.

    The report is not designed to prove a united Ireland, it is designed to give everyone all the facts they need so they can make an informed decision on what is best for them and their families.

  • cynic2

    Your approach is rational if it is balanced

    However, i doubt the voters will be more visceral (on both sides)

  • Morpheus

    “Your approach is rational if it is balanced However, i doubt the voters will be more visceral (on both sides)”

    There will be those on both sides who have already made up their minds without having the facts cynic2 but when they do have all the facts they will be able to justify to themselves why they have adopted their position rather than it being based on a lofty idealistic notion or supposition (eg. I am against a UI because I don’t like the proposed health system, I am for a UI because I think the proposed tax system is better etc. – whatever comes out of the report)

    Comprehensiveness, balance, transparency and independence are crucial to such a fact-finding mission – hence why a party with a vested interest can’t do it and why it has to be at Governmental level. It would take years to complete but in the mean time we can get on with making NI the best it can be.

  • Reader

    Morpheus: hence why a party with a vested interest can’t do it and why it has to be at Governmental level. It would take years to complete but in the mean time we can get on with making NI the best it can be.
    Aha. I think I see the issue. In my view, every man and his dog could make a suggestion. However, the UI bid (and that is how I see it), is going to have to come from an interest group that is capable of putting a package to a RoI referendum on the day of the border poll. Remember the way that the GFA was put to the RoI as a constitutional change? The southern element of the border poll would need to be done the same way. Do you think we would trust SF on Parity of Esteem? Trust FF on regional development? Trust SDLP on education? No – so the UI bid is going to have to be a constitutional package.
    As for the data needed to build a solid package, well as you said “SF are just a political party”. Not so – they are one of the 2 parties in OFMDFM, one of the 5 parties in the executive. They should be able to lay their hands on the books, or how do they ever put together a programme for government?

  • Morpheus

    Reader:

    It isn’t a UI bid, it’s a peaceful, democratic, independent way to educate the electorate north and south of the border on what a united Ireland will look like in terms of the important issues so everyone can make an informed decision when it comes to a referendum.

    That’s it.

    At the end of the process if you feel that it’s not for you and your family then you vote against it. If you think the package on offer is in the best interests of you and your family then you vote for it. The majority then decides the path that NI should take in the knowledge that they do so with everyone knowing all the facts.

  • Reader

    Morpheus: It isn’t a UI bid, it’s a peaceful, democratic, independent way to educate the electorate north and south of the border on what a united Ireland will look like in terms of the important issues so everyone can make an informed decision when it comes to a referendum.
    Except that it doesn’t exist yet. And how can it relate to “what a united Ireland will look like” unless it is phrased as a bid? Oh yes, it will look like this: “financially, there may be issues (Appendix 1), however, the weather will be lovely (SF manifesto) and everyone will be happy (SDLP manifesto). Your identity and cultural aspirations will be respected (as decided by Mary McArdle on a best efforts basis)”.
    By all means, do a few economic sums. But you need to realise – any promise of constitutional, legal or social change has to be a UI bid. Otherwise it’s just handwaving.

  • sonofstrongbow

    I’m intrigued. On what data set would this “package” be based?

    For instance who would provide the medium to long term figures on what is expected in the economies of the UK and ROI?

    At best the ‘facts’ would be a projection of expectations that would it all likelihood be open to challenge (a bit like those 120% mortgages that were all the rage way back when). Get two economists together and you’ll get at least three different opinions as they say.

    Oh and by the way Joe I’ve yet to meet any of these unionists “terrified” by any discussion on a UI. Another auld nationalist at-me-mammey’s-knee myth methinks.

  • Morpheus

    “Oh yes, it will look like this: “financially, there may be issues (Appendix 1), however, the weather will be lovely (SF manifesto) and everyone will be happy (SDLP manifesto). Your identity and cultural aspirations will be respected (as decided by Mary McArdle on a best efforts basis)”.

    I advocate an independent, international commission working hand-in-hand with the British and Irish governments to find the facts Reader, not some slapdash superficial report upon which no one can make an informed decision.

    Before I sign up to a UI then I want to know what the proposed tax system would be like. What will happen to my wages, pension, national insurance contributions? What the proposed health system would be like? Will a new Ireland have an NHS of sorts or adopt an American-style insurance based approach? How much for a prescription? What would the proposed model for political representation be like? Will there be regional governments? Will we have new county councils? What happens to the PSNI? What systems will be in place to ensure no discrimination? What happens to public sector works? How will links with the UK and beyond be enhanced?

    Based on answers to all those key questions and many more besides we can all decide if it is for us or not.

    I don’t pretend to have all the answers, there are wiser people than me in the world, all I want to see are the facts laid out in front of me so I can make an informed decision free from supposition and guesswork.

  • cynic2

    Terrified?” I thought we were all just too thick to understand

  • Morpheus

    SOS: For instance who would provide the medium to long term figures on what is expected in the economies of the UK and ROI?

    The British and Irish Governments would provide all the figures.

  • Reader

    Morpheus: I advocate an independent, international commission working hand-in-hand with the British and Irish governments to find the facts Reader, not some slapdash superficial report upon which no one can make an informed decision
    That would be the Troika then? You need someone with real clout.
    Look, suppose this commission says one thing and the first elected Dail of a united Ireland says something completely different? What *actually* happens in such a case? Or suppose SF says the NHS is being rolled out across 32 counties and FF says like hell it is – what does the commission put in the report? Or suppose the SDLP says Grammar schools are being abolished and their voters say fuck-off – who delivers?
    You could put Solomon, Gandhi and Kissinger on the commission, and the output would still be worthless unless there was a mechanism for delivery. To me the obvious solution is a constitutional amendment tied in to the outcome of the 2 way referendum. To you it’s a bit of paper where any delivery is at the whim of whoever turns up for work in the first Dail of the Year Zero.

  • sonofstrongbow

    For feck sake Morph come into the real World!

    The UK parties sitting opposite each other in the House of Commons can’t agree on the financial outlook over the next few years let alone mapping a template for the future of NI.

    In any case, as Reader has noted, any future government in either of the two jurisdictions could simply turn around and say that the promises/undertakings of the past are no longer possible.

    As to any international commissioners, well we can take a pointer from recent history. The Decommissioning Commissioners waltzed off into the wide blue yonder with nary a backward glance at the PIRA weaponry turning up in the hands of PIRAnua.

  • Morpheus

    Reader
    All are perfectly valid points, as I said I don’t have all the answers, far from it. I just think everyone needs all the facts so we can all make an informed decision – how we get into the nitty-gritty and obtain those facts is a different issue. Maybe we need a temporary transitional government until the system beds down then return to traditional form of government? I would be interested to hear an expansion on your suggestion about a constitutional amendment tied in to the outcome of the 2 way referendum.

    SoS
    I am very much in the real world thank you very much. I suggest getting an independent body to impartially inform the electorate north and south of the border on key issues so we can all make an informed decision and move forward – what do you suggest?

  • reader,

    Great to see that you are engaging with Morpheus. I think your suggestion of the need for a Constitutional amendment is a good one.

  • PeterBrown

    Just to get us back on topic (interesting though the aside is) I see that the North Belfast have issued the following statement (part only) after a meeting with the PSNI tonight…

    Speaking following the meeting, Nigel Dodds said:
    “This was a useful meeting at which we discussed a number of issues and allegations relating to parades and protests.

    Firstly, we raised the claims made by Frank Dempsey that homes at Carrick Hill were attacked during the ‘Tour of the North’ parade last Friday evening. The District Commander made clear that the police have received no reports of attacks against homes in the Carrick Hill area, either on the evening or subsequently.
    Given the number of police cameras monitoring the general scene it was very useful to hear from the police that there were no reports of attacks and no evidence of attacks against homes. This causes us to believe that these claims are entirely bogus and that there were, in fact, no such attacks.”

    Might need to change the subtitles on the AP video to the police reacting to the more widely reported attempt to disrupt the parade by local youths – presumably a breach of the Residents Group protest determination Cara & Gerry?

  • GEF

    Thanks PB, this seems to prove that after a peaceful parade had passed off some nationalists were determined to create trouble whatever, even if it meant making up stories some residents homes in Carrick Hill were attacked by loyalists. Cara & Gerry have some explaining to do.

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.u.tv/News/DUP-meet-PSNI-over-Kelly-incident/d8cfc98f-fe5c-42d9-b1b8-72d428bc8774&sa=U&ei=GrvLUaykH-q30QXNxIDoBw&ved=0CCUQqQIoADAA&usg=AFQjCNHd04tC0V7TLXbYIp4rOd1RK_Lr2Q

  • GEF

    $64 000 question remains. If there were no attacks by loyalists on Carrick Hill homes, what incident ignited the affray between Nationalists and the PSNI which caused Cara & Gerry to become involved?

  • News_Meister

    Let’s examine not just the conduct of Sinn Fein but that of our supposedly “impartial” Police.

    I think we can all agree, Gerry Kelly’s recent antics in Ardoyne were pandering to his electorate and that he probably should have been arrested. That said, let’s compare the conduct of the PSNI during this incident verses the treatment they accorded to unelected Orange Man Mervyn Gibson and DUP Councillor Ruth Patterson during the above arrest of a Loyalist in east Belfast on 26-01-2013.

    – listen to Mervyn Gibson and watch him standing at the back of the PSNI Land Rover explaining to the mob how the PSNI permitted him to visit the arrestee, etc;

    – listen to Ruth Patterson’s various comments but particularly note she advises that the PSNI were apparently permitting her to accompany the arrested man to the Police station.

    The relevant footage begins from 11:30 minutes onwards http://goo.gl/pUqDl

  • As I suggested all those months ago, the Police Officer driving the landrover that Gerry Kelly tried to ambush, has been given a talking to by his boss.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26232494