Dungiven parade: Republicanism on display or a mere base sectarian reflex?

I picked this up from Gerry Lynch on Facebook just now. It won’t come as any surprise to the practicing Anglicans of Dungiven to find themselves regaled with loud Republican music whilst at worship

Their church has been marked out for all manner of special treatment over the years, not least the careful siting of a hunger strike just outside the local church ground…

Chris has raised important questions about the attitude of the DUP leadership in relation to parades and the parades commission… It appears that the deputy First Minister has some questions of his own to answer…

It’s interesting to note that both Sinn Fein and the DUP have already tried to put in place ‘other arrangements’ to replace the Parades Commission, and failed…

As a tail note, Nelson McCausland draws a useful insight from Brian Kennaway:

Brian Kennaway told us that Roman Catholics have a particular view about the sanctity and significance of church buildings, even if they are empty, closed up and locked. Then surely many of those organising and taking part in the Sinn Fein hunger strike commemoration would hold that view.

In that case they cannot plead ignorance when they march past a Protestant church with bands playing republican tunes and with depictions of IRA weapons and references to IRA terrorists on the Sinn Fein cumman banners and on the sides of some of the bass drums..

Quite. And if this is not an issue for Republicans to deal with directly and robustly, I don’t know what is. Here’s Gerry commentary on Facebook:

What future for members of the Church of Ireland does Sinn Féin, in the Irish Republic it envisages, think it communicates to Protestants by behaving like this? Every stupid piece of sectarian triumphalism in Republican areas West of the Bann acts as an apology for the stupid sectarianism that Catholics have to put up with in places like North Belfast and South East Antrim.

Stupidity and sectarianism are the most appropriate words. It does not just belong to one or the other side in this ‘argument’. In 1845 clashes were so bad in Ulster over Orange demonstrations that they were banned the following year.

By 1849, an attempt by Ribbonmen to put them off the road ended in the death of one Catholic boy. The impulse to march and take control of the public highway is long and deep rooted, as is the determination to treat neighbours with contempt.

So long as such bloody minded reflexes takes the upper hand in either identity, there is little space for the Republic of Tone, Emmet, Davis or Thomas Russell..

,

  • Mark

    Comment shoulda gone on John’s thread .

  • Mark

    Yes you could be right Joe .

  • Mick Fealty

    Latch:

    Your 7:08 pm: No, no and no. Now how about you try to address the question I actually asked?

  • latcheeco

    Mick,
    I would if older comments didn’t say no results found.

    But if I remember the gist of it was to the effect that it would be more republican and productive to remove anything offensive. Perhaps, if you believe unionists are persuadable. They say they aren’t. I’d take them at their word

    Others might say that’s an obvious ploy to help achieve longevity through normalisation for the state by those who wish its survival- it would be the the “soldier soldier won’t you marry me” road to nowhere, especially on recent evidence of where unionism still is.

    When the time comes I imagine unionists will be surprised to learn how generous the majority on the island will be but in the meantime I doubt republicans are going to give up what they’ve won or deny those who won it just to placate those they had to win it from.

  • Mick Fealty

    Yes, you imagine. But you have no interest in providing proof right now.

    How on earth do you imagine you are going to get what you want without provdiing proof of such good intentions?

  • Mister_Joe

    I cannot fathom why unionists stubbornly refuse to realize that Utopia awaits them in a united Ireland. Is it that they are particularly thick or are they just plain thran ( Thanks, Andrew)?

  • Mark

    When Republicans march , it is to commemerate their war dead , the hungerstrikers etc . The OO on the other hand march to celebrate a military war against Catholics . If as the OO say that it’s all about the culture then why not both Republicans and the OO have the same amount of marches each year ?

  • Mister_Joe

    ..why not both Republicans and the OO have the same amount of marches each year ?

    I’m really, truly, afraid to shake my head any more lest it fall off. One near death experience a year is way too much.

  • Mark

    I had two weeks of marching in mind Joe . Do you think that would be enough ?

  • Mark

    Joe , I’m actually Willie Frazier . I thought I’d better confess before you sniffed me out like the dissident lodger last night ….lol

  • latcheeco

    Mick,
    Martin McGuinness supports Robinison through Irisgate, calls a/the Ra traitors to Ireland, and meets the Queen. He gets episodes like Short Strand, Donegall Street and Ardoyne thrown back in his face in return. That seems clear evidence of where good intentions go in the present dispensation. Unionists aren’t up for persuasion, but you already know that.

    Joe,
    It’s not about utopia for unionists; its about ending a nightmare for nationalists.

  • Mister_Joe

    Yes, latcheeco, and that’s why most northern Catholics, nationalists by reputation, can’t wait to vote for a united Ireland, if recent polls mean anything.

  • latcheeco

    Joe,
    Are you suggesting the six counties haven’t been a nightmare for nationalists?

    Recent polls like election polls or do you mean Belfast Telegraph polls?

  • Mister_Joe

    latcheeco,

    Since I believe that you are simply trolling, I won’t answer those questions. Just to let you know, however, I was born to a nationalist family in Northern Ireland and spent the first half of my long life there.

  • latcheeco

    “Just to let you know, however, I was born to a nationalist family in Northern Ireland and spent the first half of my long life there.”

    We know Joe, you tell us every five minutes and then you forget that you told us and tell us again. But that’s not as sad as believing everything you read about nationalists in the Tele.

  • Mick Fealty

    Latch,

    You are still evading like crazy… Is it Republican to put a statue right outside a Protestant church?

  • lamhdearg2

    A man from Scotland, who passed through a protest that had been staged against a Loyal Orders parade in Belfast, has been given a suspended jail sentence, he was sentenced to three months in prison, suspended for 18 months, he was also ordered to pay £100 in fines and fees.

  • lamhdearg2

    A little more on the case,
    the man in blue had been due to make an application for High Court bail, as he ( a father-of-two) claimed that he just happened to come behind a protest by residents in the area. but a barrister confirmed the application could be struck out because his case had been dealt with.
    The Courts Service confirmed Boyce was sentenced on Friday after appearing before magistrates by video link and pleading guilty to the offence at which point a second charge against him of disorderly behaviour was withdrawn.

  • lamhdearg2

    In other news (not worthy of the papers/tv), a known republican member of S.F/ira who walk into the midst of a loyalist parade on the 12th of july and proceeded to video those on parade, at which point disorder ensued, has received no sanction.

  • Mister_Joe

    latcheeco,

    It’s good that you are not prone to exaggeration. I hope you had pleasant dreams last night instead of your apparently usual nightmares.

  • latcheeco

    Mick,
    It’s as entitled to be there in that particular town as anything else. And you know rightly there would be no benefit to republicans in removing it. What you are deliberately floating is an even more insidious version of sackcloth and ashes. I like how your mind thinks-Donegall Street becomes an opportunity to press for the removal of Republican symbols Should we change Casement Park for you too? Is O’Connell Street ok? He just wanted emancipation after all.

    But would it not be smarter for unionists to drop poppy wearing or dump the British Legion in say Ards because it has catholics? Instead of your twelfth for all, how about a twelfth for none? How about that for a thread? I doubt you’d dare!

    It’s quintessential Slugger/Strategem- trying to get the croppies to lie down by other means.

  • PeterBrown

    latcheeco

    As L/Cpl Jones (apologies for the military reference obviously) would say “They don’t like it up ’em, they do not like it up ’em” – point out the total hypocrisy regarding parades and places of worship and suddenly it is a means of oppression comparable to waterboarding and highland clearances.

    Maybe it would just be easier to point out the distinctions between the parades and the abuse of places of worship to dispel the hypocrisy myth – assuming that this can be done.

    If not feel free to look suitably chastised and if you wish to misinterpret that as “trying to get the croppies to lie down by other means” feel free to do so and to continue the mock indignation….

  • latcheeco

    Peter,
    It’s not that ” they don’t like it up them” its that we don’t have time for the tired one- sides- as- bad- as- the- other-its- just- tit-for tat moral and intellectual cowardice that unionists have used to try and defend the indefensible since the founding of the state. Using the mote to defend the beam won’t wash. Both sides aren’t equal in this no matter how much that would sooth your conscience.

    You can reread my comments on republican flute bands.

    Clearly Mick realised there was no real comparison to be found between the video above and unionism en masse supporting the ycv band so he moved the goal posts -as unionists do- and then posited the nonsense that having a war memorial down the (one) street from a church is worse.

    He also despicably tied to stir the pot by using deliberately offensive language about singling people out for ” special treatment” while deliberately ommitting how much special treatment the people of Dungiven were getting from the monstrosity across the road which was the real elephant in the room.

    I’d rather have mock indignation than cowardly or for- profit equivocation

  • lamhdearg2

    “why not both Republicans and the OO have the same amount of marches each year ?”

    This will be the line. with 0 parades/marches the number irish nats have in mind, in the knowledge that an end to parades would mean little to irish nats and all to loyalists (its our thing)

    heres a counter

    we give up our culture, and you give up yours (gaelic),
    parades alone wont cut it, no orange parades, no Gaa,no fleadh.

  • Mister_Joe

    Lamhdearg,

    Are you really saying that the only “culture” that non-nats have is marching? Since you suggest that the GAA has to go you’ll be happy with no football, rugby or cricket too. No more music festivals either, maybe no theatre.
    My comment, of course, is sarcastic as yours must surely be .

  • JR

    lámhdhearg, me thinks you have d illusions of grandeur, comparing the GAA or the fleadh to parading. 🙂

  • andnowwhat

    Think someone is mixing up loyalist culture with unionist or Protestant culture. Can’t recall any protests at Willie Drennan concerts, the highland games up in Antrim or booing Stephen J Hall off the stage.

    As an article, quoted by the Beeb today, said, maybe the orders need to stop hiring theses bands. After all, it is they who the orders blame when things go wrong for them

  • PeterBrown

    there was no real comparison to be found between the video above and unionism en masse supporting the ycv band so he moved the goal posts -as unionists do- and then posited the nonsense that having a war memorial down the (one) street from a church is worse

    No the DFM (is he still Deputy leader of SF?) endorsed Dungiven which is totally different – and its not a war memorial there was no war and its not a one street town – why not site it at the GAA club named after him as well?

  • latcheeco

    Peter
    “why not site it at the GAA club named after him as well?” So you’re open to moving things away to places where they won’t cause offence? Good

    “there was no war”
    If your army can’t deliver their cornflakes to their outposts except by aircav-its a war.

  • PeterBrown

    Latcheeco

    If it has all the necessary approvals (because lets face it you can’t accuse loyalists of being selective if you like Parades Commissions determinations but not the planning regulations) then not deliberately siting it to cause maximum offence would be a step forward and slightly less hypocriticasl (see thread on Billy Hunter)

    It’s a war when both side play by the rules of war – this is a debate I have had on this site before and I think like others you need to check the small print of the Geneva Conventionand see how many boxes terrorists on all side ticked on the rules of war and then get back to me – anyone objectove will tell you it was a terrorist comapign / insurrection but it was never a war

  • latcheeco

    A whole different thread but just off the top of my head-the French-Algerian War, Irish War of Independence and the War in Afghanistan don’t fit your neat little form but they’re still wars. That’s a tangent for another day. Just because it doesn’t suit your narrative doesn’t mean it ain’t true

    “not deliberately siting it to cause maximum offence”

    If we said you site your war memorials to cause maximum offence would you agree? If I said the war memorials in Lisburn or Ards are way too close to the chapels there would you agree to move them to inside the British Legion in the interest of inclusive Britishness? Would you say your war memorials are in the same category as the ycv bands choreographic and rhythmic musings? How about if we said your criticism of how and where our community remembers its war dead is rich coming from people who turned the poppy into a sectarian badge?

  • Mister_Joe

    Recommended reading for those who may benefit:
    How to Win Friends and Influence People, by Dale Carnegie. Should be in your local library.

  • Mick Fealty

    Latch,

    You still here? Still ducking the question? You seem to want to talk about anything and everything but whether siting a Republican memorial outside a Protestant Church?

  • latcheeco

    Morning Joe,
    You scoffed at Northern Ireland being referred to as a nightmare, then in practically the same sentence you tell us you fled to Canada. We’ll take your self-help reading list with a pinch of salt

  • latcheeco

    ‘Still here” -I know and on Labor too, but the sure the craic’s good!

    Asked and answered ad infinitum m’laud see above even though the whole premise was transparent nonsense but just to save you time yes! It’s like asking Wolfe Tone if it was Republican to have a rebellion because the Anglicans might be sensitive
    Don’t be so tetchy- threads about “special treatment” are a deliberate invitation for a free for all. Be a man and “take yer licks” as they say

  • Mick Fealty

    You can take the man out of Belfast, etc etc… Before I proceed, you do realise Tone was an Anglican?

  • latcheeco

    That never concerned me half as much as Teeling being from Poleglass 🙂

  • Reader

    latcheeco: If we said you site your war memorials to cause maximum offence would you agree? If I said the war memorials in Lisburn or Ards are way too close to the chapels there would you agree to move them to inside the British Legion in the interest of inclusive Britishness?
    The British war memorials commemorate both unionist and nationalist dead. Republican memorials *only* commemorate republican dead. In that respect, republican memorials can only be compared with loyalist memorials, and would be equally objectionable, except they are much more likely to spring up in shared space.

  • Mick Fealty

    Can I also ask if the parishioners of the Dungiven Parish Church were consulted before the memorial was erected?

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Mick, you can ask that question all day long, but I suspect it’s like asking was there a planning application for the republican memorial in Dungiven, and the many other republican memorials throughout the country, I think you will find the same answer. A resending NO.

    Remember republicans don’t want the legal “Welcome to Northern Ireland” signs and they have been forcibly removed. Is this civil disobedience, and have the shinners condemned it???

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19149441

  • Moderate Unionist

    Mick,

    before I exit stage left I have to say I agree entirely with the statment by Billy Pilgrim below.

    “This thread is truly epic whataboutery.”

    The OO and the DUP have sought to deflect attention away from the sectarianism of the YCV and the OO by heaping blame on the PC – who have done an outstanding job in extremely diffiuclt circumstances.

    The OO and the YCV and the DUP are all still in denial having miserably failed the Beach-Boys-Test and should be held up to ridicule by their own community for embarssing ordinary decent Prods and bringing their community into disrepute.

    I suspect if Westminster was interested enough to discuss this issue they would be appalled that the PC was being attacked as a cover for sectraian antics and that the focus of complaint was not the actual perpetrators.

  • Reader

    Moderate Unionist: The OO and the YCV and the DUP are all still in denial having miserably failed the Beach-Boys-Test and should be held up to ridicule by their own community for embarssing ordinary decent Prods and bringing their community into disrepute.
    One paragraph after your complaint about whataboutery you are engaging in it yourself. This thread is about Dungiven. There are plenty of active threads where you can discuss loyalist misbehaviour.

  • Moderate Unionist

    Reader,

    This is what the hitch hikers guide to the galaxy says about whataboutery:

    “A practice developed by ape descended carbon based life forms to deflect from accusations of unpleasant activities such as nose picking and sectarian parading which when challenged may illicit unfounded accusations of same” (p264).

    I do enjoy a circular arguemnet – it puts me in mind of Orange Order claims that Nats are guilty of intolerance for being offended by parades designed to offend them.

  • PeterBrown

    parades designed to offend them

    How exactly?

  • The Lodger

    Peter,

    By containing Protestants. Of course as republicans are ‘non sectarian’ they will produce a plethora of other excuses for detesting the ‘huns’ on parade. The reality is that they hate Prods.

  • Moderate Unionist

    PeterBrown,

    There is a preception aboad that marches that celebrate victory of one community over another are sectrarian and the way in particular that the Orange Order conducts itself is sectarian.

    This view has nothing to do with hating ‘huns’ but is a view shard by the vast majority of people in Britian and Ireland.

    If it had anything to do with hating ‘huns’ why would the SNP, I understand to be largely ‘huns'(as you would call them) be banning Orange marches or indeed the MP for Northampton state they should not be involved with the British Legion?

  • The Lodger

    The Battle of the Boyne was about a hell of a lot more than one community winning a victory over another. The international consequences were pretty damned significant, and only someone who would have liked to see a Europe totally dominated by the RC church with no Enlightenment etc could be disappointed with its outcome. Apart from Irish republicans of course. Their cause is much more important than all of that.

  • Reader

    Moderate Unionist: “A practice developed by ape descended carbon based life forms to deflect from accusations of unpleasant activities such as nose picking and sectarian parading which when challenged may illicit unfounded accusations of same” (p264).
    I don’t think the word “unfounded” appears in any conventional definition of whataboutery, and you wouldn’t be able to use the term if it did.
    And I’m sure Douglas Adams can spell ‘elicit’…

  • Moderate Unionist

    The Lodger,

    “The international consequences were pretty damned significant”

    I’m with you on that and I think it fair to say that William was the more progressive force and of course a brilliant soldier.

    I’m not a great one for religion myself and dont think the boy Tone would agree with your view that “Apart from Irish republicans of course. Their cause is much more important than all of that.”

    ps As an aside, I recently only found out (didnt study it too closely in school of course) that the boy Churchills great, great etc grandad was a crucial player in William getting the throne.

  • Moderate Unionist

    Reader,

    I’ll give you one mark for the spelling mistake.

    ‘Unfounded’ relates to your suggestion that the very act of explaining why something is whataboutery is whataboutery itself.

  • The Lodger

    Tone would be spinning in his grave if he saw what was representing Irish republicanism in the 21st century, and yes I watched the Starkey documentary as well.