Keep ‘er country at Clogher Field 12th July (Part II)

And so unto the parade and main Demonstration of the bands through Clogher to a field less than a mile away

The PSNI presence was discreet and was there more for the traffic than anything else, though you can see the officer making a note of the band numbers as they passed. It’s worth noting that there was none of the belligerence around “crossing the ranks” (ie walking in front of the demonstration) that i have encountered over the years at parades in Belfast. I didn’t have a single word said to me when i took these photographs and if i’m honest i was pushing it a little leaving it to the last minute to get out of the way. The pride of the members as they walked was evident. Here a man has just picked up his daughter and walks with her down the hill to the field. The little nods and waves to friends and family as the members passed also displayed the pride and joy of walking amongst their own. The road out to the field was lined with well wishers and watchers…
Arriving at the fields the bands and lodges were directed to their own spot in the field…. I gotta say to the fella handing out tracts as the lodges arrived at the field should perhaps give a little more thought to who he hands them out to, particularly when their hands were full carrying the lodge banner! At this juncture i should say that because i was mooching around the field i didn’t get to taste the weak tea or any of the sandwiches. I did get given a wee bun and a bottle of coke when i interviewed the Worshipful Grand District Master.
During the open air service people pray(and text).
Group shot of the folks that were on the stage….

And here are a couple of photographs of the return parade…..

So what did i learn from our little jaunt to the country for a rural 12th?
As i mentioned there is none of the aggressive defence of the ranks which has caught many an unsuspecting tourist and photographer out over the years. As i already knew the members of the Orange Order who march are good decent and god fearing people. They bother no one, indeed the parade was largely ignored by those of a different religious faith.
Live and let live seems to me to be the order of the day.
However whilst a country demonstration is one thing, marching and demonstrating their membership and faith to a home crowd in a rural setting, the issue becomes more vexatious when taken from the rural into the urban setting. As we all know, the so called blue bag brigade of hangers on and supporters come out in force in the urban setting. I did not see any evidence of any drink being taken at the field or along the route to the field. It was all tea and sandwiches and home baked cakes and buns. The same cannot be said in urban settings. This is the main aspect that has to be looked at for future parades/Orangefest.
Whilst i am grateful for the opportunity to come down and see a country 12th demonstration i feel that i have to mention that were were obviously being watched, not overbearingly but monitored all the same. Having the the head of DUP media team introduce himself and reveal his position only after talking to me for 5mins, jarred with me and hints at how seriously the media portrayal of the 12th is taken by the DUP. Yes we were treated very graciously and given answers to our questions but i cannot get away from the bones of the matter. That is the nature of the Orange Order.
It is as a default setting open only to those of the Reform faith and as such is a cold house for Catholics.
On saturday afternoon I visited the Lower Shankill to see the festival in it’s fourth year and saw the band “Pride of the West” parading around the estate playing to their supporters. There was no booze at this festival and it was well marshalled and with a bouncy castle and the usual attendant stalls the kids had a blast. Such localised parades are the norm and do not raise an eyebrow. In my view the issues facing the 12th and Orange parades is to do with the contentious parades, namely marching through areas that have changed demographically.
Live and Let live can and should be applied across the board.
Staunch adherence to traditional routes stoke up the fires of discontent and do nothing for community relations. Like it or not the Orange Order, even viewed as a benign organisation for Protestants, still has a long way to go to make Orangefest an inclusive and family friendly event that can be enjoyed by those that wish to and ignored by everyone else.


I’ll finish this extended blog post with a photo of a fella furling a flag which he and his friends had taken down. This was the only contentious aspect of the 12th we came across. One of the fellas taking down the flags it is fair to say, had drink taken. He was insistent that i take a photograph of “themmun”s taking down flags. I didn’t see anyone taking down flags and we ended up having a 5 min conversation with a group of nationalist youths standing sentinel at the entrance to their estate on the road out of Lisnaskea. I would have taken a photo but i was told in no uncertain terms what the trajectory of the hurley would be if i tried to document the tableau.

So along with the Orange Order adopting a more pragmatic and realistic approach to contentious parades i think the assembly needs urgently to look at the issue of flags. As we have seen up at Ballyclare, the flags and the marking of territory with them can cause problems (if you want to look for them?). As Edwin mentioned in his reply to Quintens guest blog post there is a loose agreement in place in Lisnaskea which means that the flags are not left up all year round to flutter themselves to oblivion . Setting out a timescale of when flags can be flown (and where) is something that has long been over looked and needs urgent attention to help make this fraught time of year as peaceful as possible.

ps I didn’t hear o word of Ulster Scots spoken unless a thick Tyrone accent counts as such

, , , , ,

  • Whilst i am grateful for the opportunity to come down and see a country 12th demonstration i feel that i have to mention that were were obviously being watched, not overbearingly but monitored all the same.

    Were you given complete freedom to take any photographs you wished to take?
    Do you think something untoward was being hidden from your lens?
    Incidently, why did the nationalists in Lisnaskea have such an objection to their photos being taken?

    Having the the head of DUP media team introduce himself and reveal his position only after talking to me for 5mins, jarred with me and hints at how seriously the media portrayal of the 12th is taken by the DUP.

    Why did it “jar”?
    Did you say something you wouldn’t have said if you’d known it from ther start?
    Was there anything he said in his capacity as head of their “media team” which didn’t tie in with your own feelings or thoughts of the day?
    It would surely have been more of a problem, if he hadn’t revealed the fact at all?

  • I wasn’t stopped from taking any photographs though the usual defensiveness was evident with some folks turning away or covering their faces. I was trying to do a candid series of photographs and i think i succeeded and no i don’t think anything was hidden from us.
    Young cubs with their blood up are not necessarily ready for their portraits taken by some fella with an English accent. I have to say that any troubles i have had over the years has come from by and large the loyalist community. So this refusal whilst not unusual was the exception.
    It jarred because he was trying to catch me out and see if i had an agenda. I didn’t say anything i wouldn’t normally say. He knew who i was and only said something afterwards which i thought was a lil sneaky (and i told him so as he walked away)

  • qwerty12345

    oneill wrote “Incidently, why did the nationalists in Lisnaskea have such an objection to their photos being taken?”

    There used to be a Sinn Fein office in Lisnaskea (70.6% nat last census) loyalists burnt it. Does that answer your question.

  • Good to see the grand lecturer out on parade after his time in hospital!

    Just one question… how did you manage to interview the “Worshipful Grand Master” when the Most Worshipful Brother the Grand Master was in Limavady?

  • He is the fella in a black jacket on the back row of the group shot (rhs)

  • Checking the video i see that he is the Worshipful District Master Annahoe (?) District No 6 and i have corrected that mistake

  • I have to say that any troubles i have had over the years has come from by and large the loyalist community.

    Would it be fair to say that the “majority” of *contentious* photographs that you attempt to take are within the loyalist “community” areas?

    It jarred because he was trying to catch me out and see if i had an agenda.

    Well, you clearly do have an agenda (as most of us do on here), but if you were honest with your opinions and that was accepted, I don’t see why you telling them to him (whom I’m guessing you thought initially was an *ordinary* orangeman) was an issue for you. If it is who I think it is, he was also there as an “ordinary orangeman” too?

  • Drumlins Rock

    He is the Worshipful District Master of Annahoe No.6 who regularly contributes to radio Ulster, in what context I will let you guess!

    Politico, It was great to Robin back on the road, he is a very valuable member of the team down here and he was in lots of peoples thoughts and prayers over the last few weeks.

    Mooch, country folk are camera shy, I’m sure you know that! and I shouldn’t really say it but strangers will always arise interest in close knit communities, have a few good pics on the hill myself, might see if I can put them up.

    As for the DUP press officer, I couldn’t possibly comment! but he was off duty I guess. As for Ulster Scots, we don’t speak it here, the border I would esitimate is the middle of Cookstown North of Omagh roughly, simple Mid-Ulster English below that.

  • There used to be a Sinn Fein office in Lisnaskea (70.6% nat last census) loyalists burnt it.

    …or:

    Young cubs with their blood up are not necessarily ready for their portraits taken by some fella with an English accent.

    qwerty12345

    Yeah, I think I’ve got my answer.

  • No comment as regards the flag issue oniell or do you just wanna have a pop at me?

    yeah i think i’ve got my answer (without you even replying)

  • Dec

    ‘Yeah, I think I’ve got my answer.’

    A rare example of arch-whataboutery prevailing.

  • No comment as regards the flag issue oniell or do you just wanna have a pop at me?

    MP

    Eh? I reckoned yours was the more likely answer.
    I’ll have to lay off the subtlety it seems.

  • Edwin Graham

    Wonderful photos again – sorry for exhausting the supply of tea!

  • qwerty12345

    O Neill wrote “Yeah, I think I’ve got my answer”

    Nah I dont think you get it. A town which is somewhere between 70 and 80% nationalist should accept loyalist flags on practically every lamp post? A town in which a political office representing the majority of voters was burnt down?

    Why would young guys want their photo taken when such a place still has the potential for violence?

  • Stu DeNimm

    If flags are so contentious, why don’t the boys with the hurleys have march, peaceful like this Orange march, through some nearby majority-Protestant town and put up a bunch of tricolors? Both sides have a right to hold demonstrations in the public streets, and both sides have a right to freedom of expression, no?

  • between the bridges

    qwerty was there anyone charged for the burning of the SF office? did anyone claim the act? Is south fermanagh a dissent stronghold? who brunt the building?

  • Qwerty,

    A town in which a political office representing the majority of voters was burnt down?

    I vaguely remembered this and did a bit of digging, this is the latest I could find, you have any update which confirmed it was loyalists?

    http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/9843

    Sinn Féin Fermanagh South Tyrone MP Michelle Gildernew has said that the serious fire at party offices in Lisnaskea will not just impact on the work of Sinn Fein but also a community organisation that supports the victims of state violence and the local community who use the busy advice centre.

    Ms Gildernew said:

    “While it is unclear how the fire started the damage seems to be fairly extensive with the top three floors of the building very badly damaged and serious damage to the main party offices.

  • longoldlane

    SDN

    You seem to be confused with which side of the border your in.

  • Reader

    qwerty12345: Why would young guys want their photo taken when such a place still has the potential for violence?
    Most of the potential for violence seems to come from them, though. Have they been threatening people with hurleys for the last 4 years?

  • USA

    Having the the head of DUP media team introduce himself and reveal his position only after talking to me for 5mins, jarred with me
    So you met “Peter Baker” then?

    Great work Photoman.

  • Mark McGregor

    Mooch,

    I’m unsure the bit about the DUP guy is accurate, I was aware who he was from 1st contact and thought I’d passed it on.

    Failing most likely mine here.

  • ayeYerMa

    Indeed, Drumlin, a lot of ignorance to Ulster Scots by Moochin there. It has nothing to do with political views or religion – it’s the first tongue of many of the older generation in rural Co. Antrim etc. (who unfortunately are dying out)

  • Mark whilst i was aware there had been contact/facilitation by the DUP press office i didn’t know that the fella was also in the orange or would be there.
    It does highlight how inextricably linked the two organisations are though and worth mentioning.

  • ayeYerMa

    I’m not surprised many were trying to cover their faces. As much as the Republican majority on Slugger would wish, this is nothing to do with any shame (nor should it). Rather more to do with security.

    After witnessing the sheer amount of venomous bigotry directed at the Orange Order from Nationalists/Republicans on various media outlets in the last few days I would not want to have to deal with the threat of such nutters.

    … actually having said that, never saw much attraction to being in the Orange Order myself (I’m not religious and believe most of the “scriptures” to be hoo-ha), but the SHEER amount of unwarranted vitrol directed at them now makes me think that the OO might have very very valid point in being i.e. the defence of the freedom of thought and expression started by the “Glorious Revolution”. (that, and that many of the more rural-style parades actually DO have the potential to be a colourful spectacle and unique tourist-attracting carnival – they are already much more lively than parades in other countries that I’ve seen to celebrate certain cultures of those countries e.g. Gion festival in Japan is dire). If the OO put its focus more on the “Glorious Revolution” and start of British democracy, and the upholding of such ideals much more than any other aspect, then I think all the Nationalist bluffs could be called left, right and centre (though of course there is always a section of Nationalists will NEVER be happy either). Never mind Catholics, is the OO welcoming of AGNOSTICS? Or would an agnostic be better placed in joining another non-OO band on the Twelfth? Could the Twelfth/Orangefest more prominently and clearly push the message of celebration of British freedom of expression, freedom of thought and democracy? Could this be the ultimate long-term panacea to all the problems? Could the Twelfth be transformed into a wider national celebration of Northern Ireland in general as well? Could this happen with just the OO or could another organisation take on the responsibility of “Orangefest”? “Orangefest” then more prominently involving more secular non-OO groups or is that already the case?

  • qwerty12345

    Yes the fire at the Lisnaskea SF office must have been faulty electrics. Coincidentally at around the same time threats were received by SF reps in Fermanagh from loyalists and indeed that office had its front windows put in. There was some talk of a brick being put through with bullets attached but I cant say if that is true or not.

    As for the trouble in Lisnaskea on the 12th evening referred to by the Slugger 12th patrol. Having spoken to a few people I can now make some comment as to what went on.

    Large numbers of 12th attendees parked in the nationalist Carrowshee park estate. Throughout the day there was disruption to local residents, public drinking, urination the usual.
    When proceedings were over large numbers of loyalists entered the estate and started abusing locals with sectarian abuse. Three tricolors were removed by bandsmen.

    At this point police were called and five car loads turned up. By the time the police arrived a small number of nationalists had assembled.

    The police stood with the nationalists telling them not to “lower yourselves to their level” as loyalist bandsmen sang ” The Billy boys” inside the estate. The abuse went on for more than 30 minutes and at no time was there any retaliation from nationalists who were not only standing with the PSNI but also being filmed by them (for their own safety no doubt!)

    Police reportedly also did nothing to stop clearly inebriated loyalist drivers leaving the estate in control of vehicles.

    When the bandsmen finally cleared off – thats when the sluggerites turned up – the whole thing was over. It was at this point that a cherry picker arrived to remove union jacks along the road adjoining the estate. No attempt had been made by nationalists then or on the previous night to damage or remove any loyalist flags.

    Nationalists did try to erect a tricolor on the main road the previous evening but were stopped by loyalists who had been posted to watch their flags on the approach into the town.
    One lad was told that if he erected the tricolor he would be “chewing on a revolver”.

    When it was all over the lower end of the estate was left in a complete mess but was cleaned up by the local council. Roadsigns at the bottom of the estate were damaged and partially uprooted by 12th revellers.

    and before anyone freaks and shoots the messenger I am only reporting what has been told to me by people who were there. This stuff may seem petty but you do have to ask yourself.
    Why should people have to suffer this in a 70 percent plus nationalist town and in a virtually 100% nationalist housing estate.

    (Ps Mark was described as a “nice guy” Moochin’s camera scared folks, and Quintins comment of ” I guess you dont like bagpipes” wasnt really appreciated – just to let you know I really did speak to the people involved)

  • ayeYerMa,

    Part of me, the tribalist part, sees the Orange as the first barrier that is worth defending because once Republicans have removed that first barrier, then they’ll be in a stronger position to attack those tangible and soft symbols of Britishness which I hold dear (war memorials to take but one example).

    The more pragmatic part of me realises that occasionally there are large parts of the *Orange* Culture (much more so in Belfast) that:

    a) From a moral pov I can’t defend
    b) That weaken the overall Unionist cause

    In the perfect world I would love to see the OO move away from its present intertwining with both Unionism and *Britishness* and concentrate solely on promoting the religious amd societal values given to us in modern Europe by The Reformation, some of which, admittedly, also do tie in with what you identify as *British* values- eg the supremacy of the individual conscience as opposed to an imposed group-think.

    It’s something I dealt with once, many moons ago(http://tinyurl.com/6eac8ov); the Orange conection doesn’t help the Union and the focus on British identity in the 21C restricts the promotion of those religious values I mentioned.

    Doesn’t mean we should let Republicans get away with lying and hypocrisy when they attempt them but occasionally the wider picture needs thinking about.

  • Yes the fire at the Lisnaskea SF office must have been faulty electrics. Coincidentally at around the same time threats were received by SF reps in Fermanagh from loyalists and indeed that office had its front windows put in. There was some talk of a brick being put through with bullets attached but I cant say if that is true or not

    So, no link. No arrests. Right.

  • Mark McGregor

    qwerty12345,

    I don’t know how I could be described as anything given I’d went to empty my bladder and on my return decided to stay with our unlocked car full of stuff that had been dangerously abandoned near the approach to a roundabout.

    Maybe some day I’ll be thought of as a ‘nice guy’ in this case it seems likely it was Edwin.

  • Yeah Mark is a contrary bastard…everyone knows that 🙂

  • between the bridges

    qwerty.’ king Billys’ steed left some fragrant packages on the road in Lisnaskea your story reminded me of the aroma…

  • qwerty12345

    Mark who was the owner of the goatee beard – he’s the nice guy.

  • qwerty12345

    BTB you really are turning out to be very predictable. I thought it was nice that the locals painted Failte in white paint on the entrance to the lower field in use though. Nice touch dont you think?

  • Mark McGregor

    Qwerty,

    That wasn’t me but it is totally mad people (you) are going out to ‘reinterview’ people we met on the 12th.

    Not mad – pure mental.

    Ever think of turning that enterprise into your own material? Going through empties seems a bit odd.

  • qwerty12345

    O’Neill / BTB thanks for putting me straight I concede that loyalists never use arson, they never intimidate, and they certainly never get pissed up on the twelfth and behave like apes.

    Thats me told off.

  • Stu DeNimm

    >You seem to be confused with which side of the border your in.

    Thanks for straightening me out. It did seem like a pretty long swim from Liverpool.

  • That was Edwin qwerrty

  • qwerty12345

    I actually met them in passing Mark but since no one else had bothered to say what had happened that day I thought it worthwhile.

    I didnt know that burly men getting out of cars and threatening young nationalists with being shot wasnt noteworthy.

  • ayeYerMa

    oneill, thanks for your response there. assume you’re not actually in the OO, so would be also interesting to hear from actual Orangemen on many of these issues.

    Indeed, no form of transformation should ever occur at the behest of Republicans – Republicans indeed will NEVER be happy no matter how much you give and no one should be as naive to think otherwise. I’m more interested in reform because reform would strengthen the Twelfth overall and positively improve relations at the same time. Personally, I’d be more interested in seeing the Twelfth of July being transformed more than the OO itself. After all, the Twelfth is the “national” holiday here in Northern Ireland, so should also be a NI national day. The concepts of freedom of expression, thought and democracy that are embodied by the “Glorious Revolution” are after all a fine a noble basis for a NI national day! Though maybe such things are already happening – I don’t know as have never really taken much interest e.g. from what I hear many of the Twelfth bands are not related to the Orange Order??? Do we also need so many repetitive parades or would it be more productive in focusing on the one big day?

    As, for Britishness, I do think it should feature in the Twelfth and should be celebrated as Irishness is in St. Patrick’s Day (though perhaps a wider version of Britishness needs to be celebrated on The Twelfth than at present). Agreed that I’m not sure that Britishness is necessary in the Order itself, especially that it is international in nature.

    As for the Order itself, I’m not a member so don’t know exactly what its priorities are – whether Glorious Revolution and freedom to religious expression or more specifically Protestantism, or if all of the above in what ratio? Would be interesting to hear from members what its attitudes to secularism are? e.g. could you join and not be religious? (like myself) After all Protestantism is not a single branch of religion and has many branches itself – academically looking at it from a different angle you can view Protestantism and the reformation as essentially the start of modern secularism. Could the OO start, for example, a humanist branch that would be separate to the rest? (e.g. Paisley is in some other independent Free P version of the OO from what I remember) Fair enough if the OO do wish to put the focus on Protestantism though – could they accept to remain strictly Protestant, but then could then become one of the many more groups taking part in a more secular Twelfth? Could they facilitate such a process instead and encourage other non-Protestant groups to join the parades?

  • Mark McGregor

    qwerty,

    Your 2nd hand tale of what transpired in that area had three references for slugger visitors arriving late in the day – the orange, the kids and others that probably wouldn’t appreciated being highlighted. I’d be pretty certain the Orange and teen versions are not entirely accurate.

    The ordinary folk account which isn’t noted and falls between both narratives is probably closest to the truth imho.

    I’m loath to make such a small place the centre of any discussion. I’ll just note from my fleeting interaction; those most impacted by the issue were stoical, friendly, open but clearly a little frightened.

  • nightrider

    they never intimidate, and they certainly never get pissed up on the twelfth and behave like apes.

    Qwerty, you and I are apes, all humans are, so i don’t know what you mean by that ignorant remark.

    Ayeyerma, perhaps there are a very few orangemen of the agnostic viewpoint but it’s unlikely. Even Mike Nesbitt had to bite the bullet on his atheism to get elected.
    David Hume wouldn’t have passed the admission test either and I suspect even Sir Martin Rees would fail.
    I would really like to see a David Attenborough programme on the OO and GAA apes though, for education and amusement of the mainland taxpayer who funds this little zoo.

  • nightrider

    *Mike Nesbitt isn’t an orangeman* and was referring to getting elected as an MLA.

  • between the bridges

    qwerty. the end of town you are referring to is where my folks sat and watched the parade, nothing resembling your tale in their day out. i play football (sorry i mean soccerball) with a few psni guys who worked the 12th nothing resembling your tale in their day. you where at the 12th did you see any mobs? drunk madmen drivers? did these loyalist flag removing bandsmen have jacobs ladders? how did they get the flags?

  • O’Neill / BTB thanks for putting me straight I concede that loyalists never use arson, they never intimidate, and they certainly never get pissed up on the twelfth and behave like apes.

    Either give the evidence or admit you might be wrong or alternatively end up looking like a fucking ignorant bigot which from your previous contributions I wouldn’t have pegged you as.

    I merely asked you for proof for the fact that the SF office had been firebombed by loyalists (4 years ago) and you’ve given me diddly squat. If there was the slightest evidence that prods had been involved, I’m sure SF would have been more than happy to feature it in subsequently.Which they haven’t.

    Now… if you’d run with MP’s line, then I’ll go with it.
    A group of teen hoods with overactive hormones out to defend their territory against the *other*.

  • lamhdearg

    from lamhdearg (me) last night
    qwerty12345
    is there any time of the year when Eire’s flag is flown in the town?. (lisnaskea)

    response

    qwerty12345 (profile)
    13 July 2011 at 11:09 pm
    lamhdearg there was a very tatty tricolor hanging off a light pole for a long time at the bottom end of Lisnaskea but it hasnt caught my attention in ages so maybe its gone.
    querty, tonight @ 9.36
    When proceedings were over large numbers of loyalists entered the estate and started abusing locals with sectarian abuse. Three tricolors were removed by bandsmen.

    qwerty
    did you forget about those tricolours, this makes it hard for me to believe any of the rest of your comments.

  • Master McGrath

    I want to try an turn this all just slightly and pass a comment that strikes me as very strange but I am not the only one to have noticed it.
    There seems to be a complete difference in the ‘Big’ Belfast centred parades and those in the country towns.
    I watched with a great deal of bewilderment the 25 mins of No. 6 district that had been put on Slugger at just exactly what i was watching!!
    I was born and raised in this Protestant/Orange tradition in the very heart of it in Belfast but my last experience of watching the Twelfth was of ‘the men’ marching in great numbers going to the field and the bands being an entertaining interlude between the lodges.
    The focus was on the marchers but the sad focus this year in No. 6 District was on the monotonous display of sameness that the bandsmen displayed.
    They seemed to outnumber the ‘men’ by a factor of what???
    Serried rank after serried rank of semi-military like pretend Ruritanaian bandsmen and flag carriers who all essentially look the same do not an ‘orange fest’ make!!!
    I was bored and saddened as this was not how I remember the Twelfth in the days before the only bands were noisy flute bands.
    If I were a Catholic I would actually asking myself why I could be annoyed at a group of people whose musical tastes were so limited and their notions dress for a day out at a festival were so dull!!
    I might be pushed to take offence at stupidity like bands pretending that playing the sash as they passed a Catholic Church really was a hymn tune but looking at the more mature picture I probably (certainly) would not.
    What does seriously depress me though is that there is an enormous opportunity here at the Twelfth for an actual celebration that could pull in £millions if it was properly addressed.
    And properly addressing it does not mean pretending that every rag tag an bob tail flute band that can strut away in semi- militaristic comic uniforms can dictate the nature of the celebration simply because they are now more numerous than than Brethren they are supposedly playing for.
    I am very interested in Slugger responses her – we have a year to see the next episode and it would be good to see how the wind blows at this time.
    There will always be an appeal to the lowest common dominator here by politicians eager not to offend any in their own perceived constituency of support BUT if the Twelfth is ever to become in Belfast what it seems to be in the country then politicians have to take this out of the nearly para-military aspects which now seem to control the on the ground arrangements in Belfast.

  • lamhdearg

    ah **** i just commented on a M.P. post.

  • Mark McGregor

    Lamdearg,

    These three flags seemed quite the bone of contention. They are claimed to have been in an ‘nationalist’ estate just off the main road. Also, claims they were removed by ‘outsiders’ visiting the 12th field to ensure their cars wouldn’t have to ‘suffer’ them.

    All I know for sure is the easy going goodwill with little offence of Clogher evaporated very quickly. Litter was also back in vogue. It’s my new barometer of the 12th – litter bad, tidy fine.

  • qwerty12345

    lamhdearg wrote “qwerty
    did you forget about those tricolours, this makes it hard for me to believe any of the rest of your comments”

    LD – the tricolors were put up the night before the twelfth. They werent there before and they arent there now. I wasnt at that end of the town on the 12th so didnt see them.

    Any other questions?

  • nightrider

    Yes qwerty
    Are you an ape? like me and all other humans?

  • between the bridges

    qwerty ‘Any other questions?’

    yes how did the drunk song singing car driving bandsmen mob get the flegs down?

  • qwerty12345

    BTB wrote “qwerty. the end of town you are referring to is where my folks sat and watched the parade, nothing resembling your tale in their day out. i play football (sorry i mean soccerball) with a few psni guys who worked the 12th nothing resembling your tale in their day. you where at the 12th did you see any mobs? drunk madmen drivers? did these loyalist flag removing bandsmen have jacobs ladders? how did they get the flags?”

    I didnt see any trouble BTB but then I wasnt where the trouble happened. The slugger guys where down at that end of town and Im sure they will confirm that SOMETHING had gone on Im sure they saw the police in evidence.

    By the way I was there early and knew to get on home before lots of alcohol was consumed.

    As for taking down a flag, jesus it doesnt take too much to get up a lamp post without a ladder. Come on.

    Im glad your family had a nice day and didnt see any trouble, perhaps they had packed up and gone by the time the pissed up bandsmen arrived. Did you notice the buses at that end of town?

    Perhaps im just telling lies. Perhaps the people in Carrowshee are liars. Maybe the slugger guys didnt arrive at the end of anything either.

  • nightrider

    Maybe qwerty, like other apes, simply had a recall deficit.
    Dolphins (the less intelligent ones, mostly) have the same problem.
    But I don’t want to include qwerty as a lesser ape, or lesser sea mammal.
    He may even believe he’s right. And that’s OK.

  • between the bridges

    qwerty..As for taking down a flag, jesus it doesnt take too much to get up a lamp post without a ladder. Come on.

    Come on indeed i couldn’t manage it sober let alone drunk and driving a car!!! as for the buses and bandsmen yes I seen them I was one of them and when we got back to the bus it was straight on and back to Enk to parade. Nearly every lodge and band would be parading their own area or heading back to a tea or function at an OO hall after the main parade. so not much time for stealing flegs and intimidating kids.

  • Munsterview

    O’Neill : “because once Republicans have removed that first barrier, then they’ll be in a stronger position to attack those tangible and soft symbols of Britishness which I hold dear (war memorials to take but one example)

    I am not too sure what the situation is in the Six Counties but as a matter of interest could you direct me to where British War Memorials in the Twenty-Six Counties were destroyed, defaced or otherwise interfered with during the current Northern campaign, even during the Hunger Strike period when Nationalist / Republican passions were high.

    I do recall some nut case getting the key of the Old British Forces Cemetery in Cork back towards the start of the troubles and then using a sledge hammer to break off dozens of stones. That activity was roundly condemned by all sections of society including Republicans. That is the only event I can recall.

    Incidently the stones were re set all around the perimeter wall and the grounds during my last visit there two decades ago were well kept and open to the public at Cork Corporation expense as far as I can remember.

    So where were all these other war memorials that have been destroyed in the South once the OO that once was a part of almost every town in the Twenty-Six Counties made it’s by in large unlamented departure from these towns and cities ?

    Martin Ferris, his brother Brian, Billy Leen and goodness knows how many other Kerry Republicans over the years and generations were marched in to Tralee Courthouse by the State for offenses real and imagined, past fine Crimean Cannon and a list of war dead from Kerry on the base who died in combat with the British Armed Forces. Even when Kerry was part of the Munster Republic with Republicans in total control, this war memorial was not touched.

    It is still there untouched and if there was any attempt to re- locate quite a few of these same Kerry Republicans who are interested in history would join in any campaign to have the memorial retained in it’s present courthouse entrance location.

    I do not know if such statements as O’Neill’s are made to ‘stir the pot’ or from gross ignorance about the rest of Ireland outside of the ‘dreary steeples’ territory. Whatever, there are enough legacy issues from the recent political decades of turmoil to overcome without inventing more be it for mischief or inadvertently!

  • qwerty12345

    So you saw no trouble whatsoever BTB? Interesting. I have to say that now I know you were one of the bandsmen my estimation of you as an impartial reporter has gone way up.

    I think there will be letters in the Fermanagh papers shortly regarding whatever happened. Lets wait and see what gets said.

  • nightrider

    MV
    What happened to Nelson’s statue?
    Qwerty
    Are all humans apes? Or just humans from certain areas?
    Or, in your mindset, subhumans from certain areas?

  • Munsterview

    Jeezes BTB & Qwerty you sure bring back memories……of trying to keep the peace at the table when my kids were young teens.

    The good news is they grew out of it !

  • qwerty12345

    nightrider stop trolling.

  • Munsterview

    Nightrider…. yes an IRA demolition job for the top half, conceded. However the statue was removed as a symbol of Empire dominating the principle st of a capital city about to celebrate the 50th, anniversary of the Easter Rising rather than a war memorial per se.

    Contrast the position of war memorials such as the Tralee one referred to with the fate of many similar monuments in India and the Twenty-Six county record is pretty good !

  • between the bridges

    Q. So you saw no trouble whatsoever BTB? Interesting. I have to say that now I know you were one of the bandsmen my estimation of you as an impartial reporter has gone way up.

    I think there will be letters in the Fermanagh papers shortly regarding whatever happened. Lets wait and see what gets said.’

    1. You didn’t see any trouble. 2. yes it’s all out now my terrible non secret that i am in the OO and a band therefore a proddyorangebigot. 3. Letters to the paper well that will prove it. 4. you are telling us this mob of drunken driving fleg steal bandsmen parked their cars under flying tricolors. got out in unformed went off got pished and came back to abuse the natives steal said flegs and then fall drunk into cars in full view of the psni? Of course it’s all true…

    MV…not all old men are wise but all wise men are old.

  • carnmoney.guy

    Witnessed the marches in Ballycastle, how come they can march there under not one banner, bunting, flag or arch, yet still have a good day, by teatime there was not a sign that they had been there as they made their way back to Ballymoney, Dervock etc
    It was hot and sunny all day, the pictures of rain from Belfast were a surprise.
    No fun for those hemmed in for the duration, but only once every four years.
    The cops were on edge as the there is the local nationalists and the ‘Westies on Tour’ at the caravan sites.
    Must say that the Orange supporters were well behaved, the bandsmen had a few pints and a bit of banter among themselves ( if you had to walk in that sticky weather they desired it)
    The chat in the pub later was still of indignation as some had escaped the 12th only for the Orange to follow them.

  • qwerty12345

    BTB had I seen you in your finery I would have given you a wave and you me I’m sure. Lets make up and be pals.

  • mightymouse

    BTB
    I seen the. Orangemen’s antics with my own eyes psni did not intervene! It was a disgrace. I have no problem with them marching but do it and go home, don’t be arseholes about it!

  • I do not know if such statements as O’Neill’s are made to ‘stir the pot’ or from gross ignorance about the rest of Ireland outside of the ‘dreary steeples’ territory. Whatever, there are enough legacy issues from the recent political decades of turmoil to overcome without inventing more be it for mischief or inadvertently

    I know very little of the events on the ground re the Free State post 1921 other than the steep decline in the protestant population and, well, to the outsider, there doesn’t seem to have been much of an appreciation of your close cultural and social links with the other island for well nigh on 75-80 years.

    I do know first hand the mentality of many Republicans in NI and perhaps they do work with a different agenda to the rest of their compadres in the rest of the island… and they do have more of a British *influence* to chip away at than you ever did in the first place haven’t they?

  • Munsterview

    O’Neill : ” and they do have more of a British *influence* to chip away at than you ever did in the first place haven’t they?…….”

    I have plenty of Anglo Irish friends who consider themselves Irish yet have no difficulty in acknowledging their * British* heritage. As to the chip away, one has only to look at the trenchant opposition to all social change by the Southern monied Unionist Estate owning Elites in the latter half of the 19th, century who played sectarian, Protestant, Orange, Loyal and every card they could to hold on to the ir ilgotten gains, to see where the well of tolerance was fouled for generations.

    In my grandfathers childhood eighty families attended the local National school from my home townland that like the surrounding parishes was 100% Catholic and Nationalist, it was down to sixty in my fathers generation, down to less than thirty in mine and currently there are no children of school age in the townland.

    One of these days I will do an article for slugger dealing with my home area in North West Cork and another in West Cork that had a mainly Protestant Population and show the economic and other factors that led to both population declines. It just so happened that one was as of Gaelic stock and one of mainly Planter stock, but the economic and social winds of change were indifferent as to whether there was a faded photo of a Land League demonstration or that of an OO march in the parlor of the effected family!

    Currently I am arm twisting a regular contributer here to come South and cover an upcoming cultural festival where these things are explored in detail as a matter of heritage. Do not look like it is going to happen for financial reasons as this year because of cutbacks and other economic factors we are no longer working on the proverbial shoe string budget : the cultural shoes simply have no financial laces!

    Pity that, he could have caused a bit of a re think and reflection up there with Unionists of goodwill towards Nationalists and Ireland generally and I will admit there are more of them around than there used to be!

  • between the bridges

    Qwerty, i have no problem with that mo chara, although i am sure we will still have different views on many things!!

    Mightym. ok as you where there tell us what happen?

  • Drumlins Rock

    not gonig to invite me down too Munster? 🙂

  • mightymouse

    mightymouse (profile) Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    15 July 2011 at 2:52 am
    Hi Qwerty, I happen to be one of the nationalists you interviewed and with all do respect I recall telling you the tricolours were erected as a sign of protest. Ld they were not used as a provocative method,far from it in fact. May I inform you’s that there was a field used to the bottom of the town that has never been used by the Orangemen before, keep in mind this is directly opposite an 97% nationalist housin area! This caused a llot of anger within the estate. May I also inform you that the Orangemen were allowed to park within the grounds of the housing area and did so without hinderance, there was no damage etc caused to their vehicles. Yet it was used as a dumping site, while bandsmen shimmied up poles to tear down tricolours and shout sectarian abuse!
    Tom Elliot was quick to put pen to paper during the time a local gaa team won an all Ireland game to give off about the gaa flags flying in the town, I’m sure he wouldn’t be as quick to condemn his fellow Orangemen for their antics in a nationalist housing estate!
    The town was left in a terrible mess after the parade as well. We are well within our right to put up the tricolour and may I add they are not only used during the twelth. Also if we wished to provoke the loyalists we could have tore union jacks, shouted insults etc but it wasn’t . So once again to clear this up the tricolours were used as part of a protest!

  • Drumlins Rock

    I don’t like this petty tit for tat squabble, and as an outsider can’t comment on it that much, but as Mr. Fitzjameshorse would put it, there is room for a wee bit of manners on both sides, a wee bit of getting to know your neighbours could make a lot of difference before the next parade come round in a few years time.

  • ayeYerMa

    Master McGrath,

    agree with you. I think the OO (or whatever body is responsible for organising “Orangefest”) needs to become more centralised and filter out many of the talentless sash-only playing flute bands with auditions or something. A focus in needed on QUALITY OVER QUANTITY, especially with the various brass, accordion and bagpipe bands. The Twelfth has absolutely MASSIVE potential to become a world-leading carnival event an Northern Ireland’s national day. The Orange Order (and our politicians) need to realise this and focus on the positive benefits of thinking long-term and trying to reform the day.

  • Munsterview

    Drumlin : had considered it actually for you and a few more but this year the financial cubbord is bare ! In fact we had to ask all giving talks to waive fees and expenses when contacted some months back as otherwise we would have to charge an entry fee for each event.

    Fair play all understood the situation and readily agreed with the reasons for our proposal. Now all unemployed and ‘financially challenged’ attending the talks instead of an entrance fee can have cash for the price of a glass of wine or beer and socialize over the weekend rather than have to leave once the talks were over.

    There is an interesting program over the weekend of Mid August there is a good focus on the 1640 wars local effect in one lecture while another is on the North Cork patriot protestants such as Thomas Davis and their political and cultural contribution to Irish life. The latter is not before time : Davis, Russell and Co are appropriated into popular Catholic / Nationalist culture as ‘ the same as rest except that they went to a different church on sunday’ !

    There is no real examination or appreciation of the fact that their Protestant value system was different to the prevailing majority Catholic norms and that very often it is this different value system rebelling against the majority cultural norm as well as the Government that fueled their ethics and radicalism. It is good and timely that these assumptions can now be questioned and examined in rational debate !

    There is large scale unemployment, salary cuts and restricted working hours everywhere throughout the Cork/ Kerry/ Limerick border here. Munster Joinery was one of the biggest local employers drawing from a fifty mile radius based on the Cork /Kerry border and a short way South of the Limerick one. With the building trade devastated so are they : a job could have been a thousand units of windows, doors etc for an for a hotel or office, now they are lucky to have regular private housing of a dozen units or so. There have been massive employee cuts.

    In these circumstances Drumlin while we would love to see Northern visitors and give them a warm welcome, especially those with Orange Collars in the sitting room at home, funds do not permit any special invites at festival expense this year. Meanwhile the feile program is here for any interested and a warm welcome assured for all coming !

    debrunts@iol.ie
          timbrowne@me.com
    http://www.feileduthalla.com
    http://web.me.com/timbrowne/FD2010
     
    Inside Page August Flyer Master Final.pdf
    104K View as HTML Scan and download

  • Munsterview

    Sorry problem with links. On the off chance that someone up there may be down this way and drop in, here is the full prograqmme. The site have this in a lovely colorfull poster, this is a bit mundane but here goes anyway.

    Féile Dúthalla2011 http://www.feileduthalla.com Information / Eolas http://www.feileduthalla.com Tel: 00 353 879484169e-mail: timbrowne@me.comdebrunts@iol.ie Date & Time (remarks)

    Title of Talk Guest Speaker& Venue Friday, August 12th 20.30 Cead isteach saor Thoughts on the“Treaty” Jack Lane James O Keeffe InstituteNewmarket, Co. Cork

    Saturday, August 13th10.30 Cead isteach saor (light refreshments available) Kingwilliamstown inthe Pass of Kerry – Ballydesmond EnglandʼsLast Irish Plantation Dónal Ó Siodacháin Trades Union HallKanturk, Co. Cork

    Saturday, August 13th14.00 Cead isteach saor Irelandʼs Legal Tradition: Loss & Recovery Patricia Herron Trades Union HallKanturk, Co. Cork

    Saturday, August 13th16.30 Cead isteach saor Tour of Kanturk Town: Guided Walking Tour of Historic Ceann Toirc visiting a number of sites Padraig Ó Súilleabháin Assemble Trades Union Hall, Kanturk, Co. Corkc.16.15/16.25 Saturday, August 13th19.00/21.00 Tickets: €5 (includes BBQ food & music)

    Féile Dúthalla 2011 BBQ , Music Session with Geraldine O Callaghan& Danny O Mahony Park Bar Function Room This session offers patrons the opportunity to partake in a traditional session with BBQ in an informal/relaxed setting (pre booking requested)

    Sunday, August 14th10.00/18.30 Tickets: €20 (advance purchase required) Blackwater RiverHeritage Tour (see Féile website for full detailsof the bus pick ups, tour route &lecture titles etc., Fr. Seán Tucker (Bus Tour) Seamus Ó Súilleabháin Noel Linehan includes afternoon tea at Longueville House, Mallow

    Sunday, August 14th18.45/20.45 Cead isteach saor Farewell Gathering an open session of music & song with The Bus Tour Gang White Country Inn Banteer Villa