MTV makes me wanna smoke crack


according to Grand Master Secretary of the Orange Order Drew Nelson the recent civil disorder (recreational rioting) is the fault of MTV.
“My analysis is that these young people, what they think is cool and socially acceptable they don’t take their lead from the Orange Order or the churches or the traditional organisations, but they take it from the media, they take it from people like MTV.”
With Belfast hosting the prestigious MTV awards in November there are a few issues over the drink licensing laws that means a new venue has to be found for the after party.
It remains to be seen how “robust” the response to on street drinking will be this 12th

, , ,

  • Nordie Northsider

    Jesus – MTV? This guy is really up to speed.

  • Mickles

    Ah Drew, if only the young people at your marches followed the example of these fine gentlemen:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Red_Hand_Defenders_flute_band_parade_in_Newtownstewart_-_12_July_2010_-_geograph_-_1963520.jpg

    Ah look at them sure aren’t they great? Nice to see everybody out, enjoying the day, even the wee girl, celebrating the Red Hand Defenders, who murdered nine civilians, an ex UDA member and an RUC officer. Orangefest – for everyone!

  • Nice try Mr.G.M. Nothing to do with the hanger-on ruffians as described by YoungPolitico. Somebody else has to take the blame.
    Nothin’ to do with us, guv.

  • Well done Drew – if everyone knew the amount of police resources that are tied up every weekend at the Odyssey it would shock you.

    Only a few months ago the police tried to coverup a riot at the Odyssey.

    What signal will it send TO kids if the council does a uturn based on licensing laws “money talks”

  • Cynic2

    Take their lead from the OO?

    What, buy bowler hats and Sashes?

    Go to Church once a year?

    Refuse to speak to their fellow countrymen because they have a different church?

    Believe in an invisible friend in the sky (even without the assistance of psychoactive substances)?

  • Joe i was thinking of that post of young politico…which thread was that in do you remember?
    Er bjj no mention from you of the resources tied up over the 12th to police the contentious parades of “traditional routes”
    Our drinking laws are arcane without doubt

  • RichyA

    We seem to be the only part of the UK still operating the World War One era of restrictive licensing law.

    Scotland trailblazed in the 1970s with later opening hours, as much as the scottish alcohol problem is in the news, i always found their pub culture to be much more relaxed compared with that in Belfast.

    Take a look at my hometown on Saturday night when the Coach nightclub throws everyone on the streets at 1.30am to see where this byzantine licensing system gets us…

  • PeterBrown

    OK let’s start with the inaccuracies in the post and comments

    Drew Nelson is not Grand Master (that’s a minor one)

    Mickles the band from Newtownstewart was formed in 1979 19 years before the paramilitary group was – perhaps they were a premonition tribute band but I doubt it…

    Cynic I do not own a bowler hat, I attend church on an almost weekly basis as does almost everyone in my lodge and I speak to all my fellow countrymen irrespective of their religion and the governing documents of the Order require me to do so

    MP most parades including my own this weekend and next week will require virtually no police except for traffic duties which on many occasions now undertaken by stewards – it is the objectors who use police resources not those on parade

  • MP,

    The post was: The Men Who Won’t Stop Marching…
    on 1 July 2011 at 10:58 pm

  • Mickles….’even the wee girl celebrating the Red Hand Defenders’ Orangeinfest more like. The Order clearly haven’t got a problem with this example of passing on bigotry by the girl’s parents who are unfit to be parents.
    Oh forgetting it’s MTV’s fault as well as everything else.

  • Peter i stand corrected as is the post i clarified my comments by saying “traditional routes”
    Thanks Joe the post does give an interesting and welcome insight to the thinking of the younger generation of the OO

    “As a young Orangeman my own personal opinions would be that the order’s problems came about in the early 1800′s when the Order – a rurally based working class protestant led organisation devoted to promoting the protestant churches – was hijacked by the Landed gentry and the rich of the day. They changed the Order into a Dublin based, Aristocracy led institution which served one purpose – to divide the working people of Ireland into two opposing camps based on religion so that another “United” Rebellion (which had taken only a handful of year before) could never come about again and so that the gentry’s vice like grip over this country could continue limitless.

    Thus celebrating Civil and Religious liberty of the non- conformist and Roman Catholic people was hushed up and stepped over rather quickly by the Anglican led Grand Lodge. They changed the general view among the Protestant people and made them believe that the Roman Catholic Church rather than the Anglican church was their oppressor.

    “Surely if you’re celebrating the glorious revolution from which it is claimed the civil and religious liberties your position dervives then you’re unequivocally celebrating military victories whereby, it is claimed, these were secured?”

    On the 12th of July I give parade to a religious service to give thanks to Almighty God for giving King William III victory over his father in law King James II, I unlike the great swathe of Orangemen actually bother to read the rules and what it is our Institution stands for (or meant to stand for). I most certainly do not march to thank King William III as if he won through his own might or power. It is God’s providence that I celebrate not military victories. Civil and Religious reforms were fought and won in the Parliament chamber not on the battlefield and thanks to the sectarianism of the day it would be along time before the Aristocracy in the Dublin government got round to implementing William’s reforms and relief for non-conformists and Roman Catholics.

    “Why so little emphasis on the civil and religious liberties themselves, little or no attempt to celebrate them in alternative ways, no attempt to emphasise the benefits of civil and religious liberties for non-Protestants?”

    The Orange Order has been in decline for about 60 years… prior to the home rule escapades it was almost gone but thanks to Carson et Craig et al during the 1900-1950 mark the Order grew rapidly as fears were manipulated. With the Order declining men took anyone who waned to join, regardless of their adherence to the rules and qualifications. Bigots, Drunks, Paramilitaries etc etc all joined and even quite openly walk with lodges which believe it or not serves to put more good men off. It is frighteningly hard to explain to a man who is only interested in getting to a pub, or another who just wants to rant and rave nonsense about ROME that the Church of Ireland is not “the same as the fenians” never mind trying to explain how King William III made sure that laws concerning Roman Catholics and non conformists were eased in the late 17th Century.

    Plus the Order is run by Old men who won’t shift. Men who still remember the Old Days when the tricolour was illegal, when the government was all prod, when there was one unionist party and when the Orange Order had a semblance of power… those days have gone and those men should have went with them but alas they are still up there in Grand Lodge clogging up the arteries of the Order all while wondering why “young un’s” think the Order is old and outdated.”

  • PeterBrown

    MP

    Sorry for being pedantic – your was the most minor infringement but the only one corected (so far!) Madraj seems to be ignoring my post and perpetuating the inaccuracy of Mickles – the Newtownsteart band predate by nearly 2 decades the paramilitaries but never let the facts knock off your blinkers…

    Incidentally I read the post of young politico in the other thread and as a realtviely young orangeman find very little in it I would disagree with.

    In relation to Drew’s press release I think there is some misunderstanding by the old men in the Order as to the role of MTV but if you draw comparisons between Geordie Shore (an MTV programme I have read about but never watched) there is a parallell between the amount of drink consumed and the amount of violence which ensues.

    RichyA I am more familiar than most with our archaic licensing laws but are their consequences not better than the scenes we see from elsewhere in the UK on our TV screens where kicking out time and the disorder it creates lasts for hours rather than minutes? I am not convinced that 24 hour drinking would be a good thing for anyone other than MTV Awards guests…

  • Smith

    is this statment for serious?? blaming media and MTV for rioting. How can they be taken serious when one of their officals comes out with nonsense. As for Mickles video, a young girl involved in parades that remembers murders is wrong, when she grows up she will be raised to think:

    Prod – good
    Catholic – Bad

    Can anyone see how this is wrong and is part of the overall problem that is, bringing hatred into a new generation of Northern Irish

  • RichyA

    PeterBrown,

    24 hour drinking is a rarity within England, each Council has discretion as to which licenses to grant to a particular venue and can withdraw these late licenses in the event of trouble occuring.

    An evaluation of the 2003 licensing act which permitted later opening hours found overall that crime and violent behaviour had not risen as a response.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/04_03_08_Licensingevaluation.pdf

    The police authorities have generally stated that staggered closing times allow drunken customers to leave at different times, therefore not fighting over taxis, kebab shops etc.

    If anything the 1.30 closing time exacerbates the problem as most young people purchase large quantities of supermarket booze, drink it as quickly as possible to get to the club for around 11pm then drink furiously until closing timee

  • Drumlins Rock

    Thanks to PeterBrown, got there before I did, Drew is Grand Secretary btw. and as he said Red Hand Defenders is quite a common band name dating back decades before some loyalist splinter group chose to abuse it.

    As for the main point, although drawing comparisons is not the best way to describe a group, that MTV has become a symbol, just like Woodstock and Flowerpower, is generally accepted, with programmes like Jackass setting new standards.

  • andnowwhat

    At least actual orange “men” don’t get involved in the actual violence of assault police officers…….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgWw0SkpM2w&feature=view_all&list=PL40FEF4341512A043&index=1

    Ooopps

    (check at 1:30 in to the video. It’s culture aparently)

  • Mike the First

    Mickles

    The least you could do given your opening post is accept you were wrong about the band you posted a photo of, and their supposed “celebrating” of a paramilitary group.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Mickles, the first example you gave was completely inaccurate, but you choose to keep digging, I know nothing about the Coleraine band but please withdraw your more serious accusations unless you can produce evidence of convictions and stand over the accusation in court.

    I know of no paramilitary involvement in the area I’m from, but I guess such connections exist in other areas, I wish they didn’t but that’s the society we still live in, if I have to accept IRA terrorists as government ministers and councilors then maybe bringing such groups in might move things on.

  • Mick Fealty

    Mickles,

    What Mike said. We all stand or fall (including Mooch, or indeed myself) on the accuracy (or otherwise) of our arguments. You don’t get to wriggle out of that one.

  • Brian

    Mickles-that picture you posted makes me sick.

    All this talk of MTV is absolutely ridiculous. What a pathetic attempt to blame something or someone other than his own community.

    What on MTV makes it seem like rioting is acceptable? I don’t watch it these days, but my niece does and I don’t recall ever walking into her room to see the reality TV show: “Rocks, Petrol Bombs, and Mob Assault: Ulster’s Next Big Rioter”

    I thought people stopped blaming MTV in the late 1980s….this guys analysis is about as honest and worthwhile as my dog’s.

  • Mickles

    Yes Mike, I accept that the Red Hand Defenders band are not the same thing as the terrorist group. Thanks for the info. I wonder if the members of that particular group are devoid of any association with the paramilitary red hand defenders though.

    I have just three questions:

    1. How is the average person able to discern which bands are associated with paramilitaries, and which aren’t, given that some are for definate, and that the non-paramilitary Orange bands don’t condemn (or ban) the pro-paramilitary Orange bands?

    2. If an ‘Order’ is against terrorism and violence, but has members who freely parade in honor of murdering terrorists, that’s not very, ‘orderly’ is it? Orangefest doesn’t seem like it’s for everyone and is inclusive (in my opinion) – it seems to be tolerant of it’s own members championing the murder of civilians – how is that justifiable?

    3. When some Orange bands are openly promoting proscribed terrorist organizations, and some bands are even set up in memorial of blow-themselves-up-wannabe terrorists, can you at least see the problem some people have with parades that promote murderers?

  • Maybe the Grand Secretary thinks jazz (as in the last 2/3rds of the video) is making people fight.

  • Mickles

    Mick Fealty, Drumlin – I accept that – but all I know as a regular person is that I hear of atrocities committed by the Red Hand Defenders – then I see this band marching with Red Hand Defenders banners.

    I’m not wriggling out of anything – I’m just calling it like I see it, and asking questions to find out information.

    I’m not trying to troll with the points I make and the questions I ask – I’m genuinely interested in hearing what people have to say on those matters, and getting some facts from all sides (I don’t classify myself as nationalist or unionist, but was brought up Catholic, so the ins and outs of the Orange Order are based solely on what I see and hear).

    I just never understood how the Order can reconcile it’s condemnation of violence – yet have groups inside it that promote such violence.

  • Mickles, condemnation is an easy word to use but it becomes a bit more difficult for those who are confronted with specific examples.

    Have a look at the pan-Unionist and pan-Nationalist families and you’ll find a very diverse range of folks, all hooked on the constitutional dilemma.

    You’ll also probably spot a shift in power relationships in each family down through the generations. I suspect that quite a few of the current and newer marching bands are now more likely to take their cue, and maybe sponsorship, from loyalist and republican paramilitaries than from OO, AOH and the churches.

    You can probably also spot a problem for band parade organisers. There may well be a need to keep well apart those bands that identify with rival paramilitary groups, especially when they’ve had an alcohol refuel.

  • Reader

    Mickles: Orange bands
    I am fairly sure there are Orangemen and band members, even loyalists, here on Slugger who will be delighted to give you their take on the complex relationships within their communities. However, your specific questions are flawed because you keep on using a term that you haven’t defined.
    What, precisely, is an “orange band”?

  • Mickles

    Nevin – good point.

    Drumlins Rock and Mike the First – yes, my limited knowledge of the Order combined with a lack of information available about what Orange bands are and are not affiliated with paramilitaries led me to believe that the Red Hand Defenders (band) were representing the Red Hand Defenders (paras).

    But some orange bands appear to have para associations, and the Freeman Memorial Flute Band in Coleraine certainly appears to, but if I’m wrong, enlighten me.

    Drumlin says: “I know of no paramilitary involvement in the area I’m from, but I guess such connections exist in other areas”
    – but my point is that the Orange Order is an organization and speaks as one unit, wants all bands to march their routes, and no one should be offended because Orangefest is for everyone, yet when it comes to which bands have paramilitary associations and which don’t it’s all “oh nothin to do with my area – I don’t know about that aspect of the Order”.

    Drumlin continues: “if I have to accept IRA terrorists as government ministers and councilors then maybe bringing such groups in might move things on.”
    – difference is the public didn’t vote for the Orange Order, but people did vote for the Good Friday Agreement, and people did elect IRA terrorists. You and I may not like it, but it’s democracy.

    I just want to know how the Order can blame other outside influences on the behavior of it’s supporters and members, when some bands that are part of the Orange Order openly promote terrorist groups. Why dance around an answer to that simple question?

  • Nunoftheabove

    I don’t suppose there’s any danger of anyone holding to the principle of personal responsibility as the cornerstone of any decent human ethics is there ? Nah, didn’t think so.

    Keep stultifying young minds with poisonous religious rubbish, educate them separately in different forms of religious lies and garbage and then blame popular music when some of them begin a process in their adolescence of engaging in morally reprehensible behavior when the only ethics some of them have ever been taught (or come across) are grounded very firmly on immorality, untruth, supremacism and superiority and – better yet – with a vaccuous political cause and a religious identity for ‘cover’. That’ll work.

    Full speed head with the evolution of our normal society and its the-enlightenment-never-happened orientation. Ace !

  • Mickles

    @ Reader
    Orange Bands? – Are you saying that the bands who march and play drums and flutes and carry banners with loyal orange lodge (and occasionally uvf, uda, etc.) on them are not in the Orange Order?

    If these bands are not part of the Orange Order, why does the Order speak for them and demand band ‘x’ gets down road ‘y’ every year?

  • Reader

    Mickles: Are you saying that the bands who march and play drums and flutes and carry banners with loyal orange lodge (and occasionally uvf, uda, etc.) on them are not in the Orange Order?
    As I understand it, the Orange Lodges hire bands for the 12th, just as Yacht clubs hire bands for their regatta days. It’s possible that some “orange bands” (your term) are also “yacht bands” (my term). Though that’s only really likely for brass or silver bands.
    If your questions are honest, then don’t load them up with your preconceptions.
    By the way, some bands are capable of getting into bother with no orange lodges involved at all. I suppose that may be where your ‘band x’ quote came from. Are you sure you aren’t mis-remembering?

  • Mickles, I suspect that Freeman Memorial band isn’t part of the OO. Also, the OO has limited central control of the organisation. Local lodges AFAIK book bands for their parades and don’t require central sanction. Many parades are organised by bands themselves.

  • Mickles

    Reader,
    Preconceptions? Everyone has those. I’m not loading anything, and I’m sincerely surprised to find out that The OO hires these bands out. I thought all people marching in a band over the parade season were Orangemen? I thought that’s what Orangemen do, march over the 12th in bands.

    What I remember, Reader, is that when the Orangemen – or the band hired by the Orangemen weren’t allowed down Garvahey road in Portadown, there was widespread mayhem all over NI – I remember roads being blocked by men in orange sashes and balaclavas, I remember scenes like in andnowwhat’s video up there.

    So loyalist bands that march over the summer are not necessarily anything to do with the Orange Order? Are any marching bands actually Orangemen? How does joe public tell the difference?

    Nevin, if these random, loyalist terror group supporting bands are not part of the OO – how are they permitted to march, and does the OO not disapprove of such marches, given that they seem to occur as part of the 12th’s celebrations? Or are they happy to be associated with such promotion of terrorism?

  • Reader

    Mickles: So loyalist bands that march over the summer are not necessarily anything to do with the Orange Order? Are any marching bands actually Orangemen? How does joe public tell the difference?
    There may be family or local connections, but the bands aren’t part of the OO. After all, what is the point of an individual joining two organisations where the biggest day of the year is a guaranteed scheduling conflict?
    If the public is keen to tell the difference, the easiest way is to either check the details on the Parades commission website, or to actually watch the parade. If you see Orange Lodges, it’s an Orange Order parade; if you see Apprentice boys, it’s an Apprentice Boys parade; or if you see the BB, or the AOH, or soldiers, or men in ski masks, or tutus or whatever, that’s a clue. If there’s nothing but bands, then it’s a band parade. Or maybe a music festival.
    Now, for Orange Order parades, there’s a known problem. When you hire a band, you get what you pay for. Some lodges are nowhere near recognising that the Parades Commission will hold them accountable for the behaviour and symbols of the bands they bring with them.
    As for mere band parades, they probably won’t happen on the 12th – the bands that didn’t get hired will be hiding, or drinking, or practising. And for a band parade, it’s a simple matter of Freedom of Assembly vs. the Parades Commission. Most band parades will stick to friendly territory.

  • between the bridges

    Mickles…there are Orangemen in bands and bands affiliated to lodges however the vast majority of bands are independent and not affiliated to anyone. the majority of parades are band parades and not orange order parades…I believe what you are describing as an ‘orange band’ is in fact a band leading a lodge generally speaking the orange man is the one in the suit with a collarette (modern sash) and a bandsman is the one in a uniform with an instrument/flag….. an actual orange band can be identified by the lol numbers on the bass drum i.e. LOL 1690 etc….bands abide by the guidelines on symbols and flags imposed by the organizers of each parade if you wish to check I believe the parades commission/psni have more complaints re the parmiliarity displays at CNR parades than PUL but lets not let facts get in the way.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Mickles, the marching band community is a little bit complicated, but will try to give you a quick intro.
    Some bands, and probably most rural bands are directly connected with an Orange Lodge, in some cases any decisions about uniforms instruments etc. having to be made at Lodge meetings, with a degree of overlap in membership, but no band I know of is entirely made up of Orangemen.

    Many other bands however are seperately constituted, with their own bank accounts, officers, agm etc. but still have a strong relationship with the local lodge, often sharing the same hall, a presumption that they will parade with that lodge for free on the 12th etc and generally still having a strong overlap of families involved, most bands in my area would fall into this category.

    But then you also have quite a lot of Independant Bands, often with their own meeting room and free to parade with anyone they want, although they may still carry over a name from an local lodge. Some of the independants are worldclass “semi professional” competition bands, be it brass, pipe, accordion or flute, and gather membership based on ability from a wide area, (many of them have a mixed membership) they often get asked to “head” the major parades, and get quite well paid for it too!

    Generally most of the controversial bands are the other side of the “independents”, ie. urban working class loyalist blood and thunder bands, some of which are of exceptionally high standards and almost all showing a degree of musical ability, dress and discipline unheard of in similar socials groups anywhere else in the world. On the whole they might not have much connection with the Orange, apart from the 12th when they are hired by a lodge for the day, so far as I know the overlap in membership is not particularly high with the band usually outnumbering the lodge.

    With the murky world of para-militarism it is hard to know which bands have “connections”, several date back to 1912 and the old UVF and therefore include that in their name and standards quite legitimately, other I suspect abuse that concession, it would be much harder to legislate banning “memorial” bands or standards, although I would personally like to see it. The Orange Order has strict guidelines on these issues, but as I have shown they have gaps, and as a grassroots voluntary organisation enforcement has to take place at a local level, where often the will to do so may be weak.

    Hope this clears up a few points, I don’t like the whole culture being dragged down by a few like has happened in this discussion, it does not reflect what I see and love to be involved with, maybe as an organisation more could be done to confront these problem, but as I said earlier, what would be the point when we have to get used to dealing with the IRA in government on a daily basis.

  • Mickles, there may well be a mix of reasons why a local lodge would book a band with known paramilitary associations:

    1. Shortage of reputable bands coupled with a failure to check the background of bands booked from a distance.

    2. A reluctance to inflame the wrath of a local paramilitary sponsor.

    3. ‘I don’t care what other people think’ mentality.

  • between the bridges

    mickles…just to add to the confusion if you see a band with UVF standard it will no doubt refer to the 1912 UVF and the 36th ulster division…

  • dwatch

    ‘Are any marching bands actually Orangemen? How does joe public tell the difference?’

    Mickles, very few of the better (brass, accordion & flute) bands are owned and managed by Orange Lodges mostly in rural areas. But most loyalist bands today do not belong (or are managed by) the Orange Order. They are nearly all flute bands and are owned and managed by private groups in loyalist working class areas, which are paid by each individual Orange lodge to march in front of their lodge. Many smaller lodges have no bands because of the cost to hire one.

    Most band players are not members of the Orange Order. The watching public can tell by noticing how many wear Orange sashes during parades. They will notice only the odd band member wears a sash on parade.

  • tacapall

    “Generally most of the controversial bands are the other side of the “independents”, ie. urban working class loyalist blood and thunder bands, some of which are of exceptionally high standards and almost all showing a degree of musical ability, dress and discipline unheard of in similar socials groups anywhere else in the world. On the whole they might not have much connection with the Orange, apart from the 12th when they are hired by a lodge for the day, so far as I know the overlap in membership is not particularly high with the band usually outnumbering the lodge”.

    I have a few friends who actually are in these bands and they are not bigotted in any way, not that I know many, but the few that I do know are just into the competitions, exhibitions etc, the best bands are hired by lodges, not all of them are kick the pope bands.

    As for IRA in government, well so are the DUP and to me theres no difference.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Taca, to clarify most controversial bands are independent blood and thunder, but I hope I havn’t implied the reverse is also true, as the vast majority of those bands are entirely non-controversial.

  • Mickles

    Thanks for the info reader, bridges and drumlins, that certainly sheds some light on the issue. It seems to be a very murky area, and I think you underestimate the amount of people who are like myself and have limited knowledge on the subject – the Order could do with a new PR person, or at least big-up these differences and nuances you listed.

    But Drumlins Rock, you say “as an organisation more could be done to confront these problem, but as I said earlier, what would be the point when we have to get used to dealing with the IRA in government on a daily basis”

    The IRA are not in government, any more than the UDA and UVF are (Peter Robinson was in the Ulster Resistance, a group who provided guns from S. Africa for the UVF/UDA – fair enough he left that group, but if you’re gonna accuse MMG of still being in the IRA then surely you must accuse PR of still being Ulster Resistance?) . But even at that, how can you equate that with the Orange Order issues here? Like I say, whether or not you approve of who and who is not in government – they were voted in by the people of this country, the same people who voted on the GFA – who voted for the OO?

    And the guys in sashes attacking police in andnowwhat’s video – what’s the deal there?

  • SK

    “according to Grand Master of the Orange Order…”

    As soon as I read those first 8 words, I new something ridiculous would follow.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Mickles, its always hard to draw lines when groups overlap, but the point I was getting at was the maybe it is better bringing these groups in rather than doing more to freeze them out, it seemed to work on the republican side.

    As for the six year old video, those members should be expelled from the order, I hope they were, but once again discipline is a “local issues” and voluntary organisation of strong minded men not easily enforced!

  • ayeYerMa

    Instead of focusing on the MTV example, I wish people here would actually at least commend the OO for at least discussing and trying to take on the issue of the drinking culture.

    This part of the world does have a severe problem with a drinking culture, and it truly disgusts me. People here more often drink to get drunk, and not just to lubricate conversation a little. After living in central Europe and seeing how much more civilised things can be over there (where paradoxically alcohol is tolerated in a much more liberal manner), it disgusts me even more to come back to NI and be exposed again to the culture of alcoholism that infests the entire British Isles.

    Instead of discussing all this OO / Republican nonsense, can we instead discuss the real issue? How can we pragmatically tackle the issue of alcoholism?

  • Rory Carr

    I am pleased that Drumlin’s Rock is so patiently “getting used to dealing with the IRA in government on a daily basis”. It was much the same for nationalists post 1921 who had to get used to effectively dealing with the UVF “in government on a daily basis” at Stormont. The difference was that the UVF (in their political guise of the Ulster Unionist Party) made it clear that Protestantism and Orangeism were in the ascendancy and that Catholics could, quite frankly, lump it.

    Fortunately the “IRA in government” today are so much nicer than those nasty old Stormont UVF’ers and seek only equality, harmony and parity of esteem with their fellow countrymen. As a measure of that, DR will be further pleased to know that, among those who are quite supportive of “the IRA in government”, not least myself, in the dispute between Drew Nelson of the Orange Order and MTV, we remain totally agnostic. Not least because we find the whole thing entirely incomprehensible if not indeed a wee bit bizarre to be honest.

    Perhaps it’s a cultural thingy, as Prince Charles might put it and I really ought to exercise a wee bit more ‘Uniionist outreach’ to try and understand.

  • Mickles

    Drumlins Rock, that’s reasonable that such groups should be brought in from the cold, but when they’re celebrated by and shrouded in a secretive Order with a knack for not talking or caring about those it hires or those who follow it, who will bring them in, and would they want to be brought in to talk if it meant any kind of compromise?

    But ayeYerMa is right, on the alcohol problem – ban alco pops for a start, no need for alcohol to taste like sweeties other than to market it at children. Secondly – legalize weed, you ever try to start a fight when high? Impossible.

  • “no mention from you of the resources tied up over the 12th to police the contentious parades of “traditional routes”

    err NO mention of the counter demos by offended residents groups is there ??

    Maybe you’d like to comment on how you can be offended in the Short Strand on the 12th night by a parade on the Newtownards road and at the same time have a counter demo on the Albertbridge road ??

    Check the parades commission – of course if you were a dog in the street you’d think it was sinister !!

    Well done Peter 🙂

  • Something I love hearing is:

    “Why are the Lodges so small this twelfth?

    Ummm…. Well you see it’s because many of the band members are also members of the lodges”

    Then fast forward a little until:

    “What do you think of the atrocious behaviour of bandmembers at the twelfth?”

    Ummm… Well that is nothing to do with us as they aren’t connected to the Orange.”

    **************************************

    Seriously though I would say that most bands are “independent” and unconnected to any lodge except that most bands will usually take their local lodge (£200 or so pounds to rent the band for the day). There’s not even that many orangemen in bands any more so the link is even less strong than it was in days gone by. Certainly many bandsmen are embarrassed by the Order and certainly many orangemen are embarrassed by the bands.

    Bands are changing and definitely for the better… new uniforms, better music, better mood surround parading and less alcohol – they are becoming good things for communities and have in many areas replaced the local lodge as centre of the community. Paramilitary bands on the other hand are pretty much indefensible except one stoops to whataboutery, they do however seem to be disappearing into the past.

  • galloglaigh

    I love this ‘UVF standard’ argument from loyalists. The same loyalists who pose the question – should the GAA name pitches after the IRA? The UVF, be they 1914 or 2011, are two of the same thing – nothing more than sectarian gangs, drummed up to scare the fenians out of resistance to the union.

    The 36th Ulster Division who fought at the Somme, have nothing to do with the Orange Order or the UVF. They were Irish men who fought to free small nations, at a time when Ireland was being torn apart. Carson and Craig used the UVF (men who did not join the European fight), to threaten, not only the Irish people, but the British government, and to stop the freedom granted to European states being granted to Ireland. The brave men of the 36th Ulster are heroes. Those who stayed behind to defend the union, were nothing more than cowards, propped up by British Tories and cowardly Ulster Unionists such as Carson and Craig.

    It’s quite funny that the Orange Order are blaming MTV, instead of taking direct action against the ‘Blue Bag Brigade’. They should try and direct their ‘stewards’ towards handing them over to the PSNI, and stamping the problem out once and for all. The so-called Loyal Orders bring these people onto the streets; the ultimate blame lies at the doorstep of the Loyal orders, and not some TV station, that half of the ‘Blue Bag Brigade’ probably can’t afford.

  • Brian

    G

    I think your history is wrong. The 36th was made up entirely of UVF members. Unlike the Irish Volunteers, Lord Kitchener let the UVF form their own regiments with their own officers. Also, I should add, unlike the Irish Volunteers they were allowed to arm as much as they wanted and could train openly without intelligence agents charting their every move.

    Their undoubted courageousness at the Somme doesn’t overshadow the fact that they were all members of an organization (UVF) whose sole purpose was to threaten rebellion if a bill passed by the elected representatives of Britain and signed into the law by the king was implemented.

    “Loyalists?”. “Loyal” to what, exactly?

  • bjj nice bit of whataboutery
    How about commenting on what Drew Nelson said and the subject of the thread?
    “Well done Drew” so are you as out of touch as Mr Nelson appears to be?
    But i will comment as regards counter demos on both the Albertbridge rd and the Newtownards rd. It may well have escaped your attention that the Short Strand is a close knit community essentially surrounded so there will be brothers sisters aunts and uncles dotted around the area affected by the parades at either end of the Strand. Why shouldn’t they voice their opinions and support for each other. As for your dog on the street comment and the parades commission being sinister – i haven’t a baldy notion what the hell you are talking about,
    So to get back to the thread –
    Who do you blame for the blue bag brigade?
    Is it lack of parental control? or is it the arcane drinking laws that contribute to the problems.
    Perhaps it’s the fact that supermarkets sell drink at almost wholesale prices (as loss leaders). And whilst i’m on that how about ensuring that bottles are not sold in the supermarkets……rioters do not throw cans, they throw bottles.

  • dwatch

    “I think your history is wrong. The 36th was made up entirely of UVF members. Unlike the Irish Volunteers, Lord Kitchener let the UVF form their own regiments with their own officers. Also, I should add, unlike the Irish Volunteers they were allowed to arm as much as they wanted and could train openly without intelligence agents charting their every move.”

    Brian, this is common knowledge passed on orally amongst Orange Order members and loyalists down through the years, but its not the whole truth. What you say only happened between 1912 and 1914 when the UVF were in control of the Orange Order and some of them were armed with 19th century Italian & German rifles from the 1912 SS Clyde episode. Once war was declared Craig tried unsuccessfully to make a deal with Kitchener to enrol the UVF regiments (in block) into the British Army. The failed request by Craig held up recruitment by 9 months.

    The reason Craig’s request failed was because many UVF men (members of the Orange Order) were above the age limit of recruitment, and most UVF (officers) were middle class Orangemen who had no military experience and were likewise too old. All recruits into the 36 Ulster Division had to be medically fit, under 36 years old and sign up (volunteer) individually to accept the Kings shilling.

    All soldiers of the 36th Ulster Division were Uniformed, armed & paid by the British taxpayer not the Orange Order furcoat brigade who were in charge of the earlier UVF.

    Read “A Brass hat in no mans land” 1930 by Brig-Gen FP Crozier. Crozier was the Major (2nd in command) of forming the West Belfast Battalion ‘Royal Ulster (Irish) Rifles” in 1914/15. At the outset of war Major Crozier was ordered to London by Kitchener to recruit 500 Junior/Warrant officers and NCO’s (recently de mobbed or from other army regiments) to help train the new recruits for the 36th Ulster Division before they were posted to France in 1915/16.

    Finally, all the Italian & German UVF guns (from 1912) were not used in WW1, they locked up in an RIC (later RUC) barracks on the Newtownards Road. During WW2 they were ordered over to England by Churchill to be used to train dads army platoons and regiments.

  • “It remains to be seen how “robust” the response to on street drinking will be this 12th”

    MP, I’d imagine it won’t be very robust at all. There’s not that much the police or publicans or supermarkets can do when folks in large numbers disregard the law.

    I wonder if Drew has considered the impact of, say, Club 16-30 holidays to sunny climes on ‘not just during our parades, but at other festivals and fleadhs that happen in the province’? Could this even be an example of our ‘shared’ cultural experience?

  • Agreed Nevin with such large numbers on the street the PSNI will be hard pressed to take too much action though i did post a photo of a “booze confiscation station” from 3 years ago beside the BBC.

  • “whataboutery haven’t a baldy notion”

    yip that sums up your venture in politicial threads – try reading my post

    if the so called residents are offended by a returning parade via the Newtownards rd why would you go and prostest at the Albertbridge rd ?? my view to stretch police resources and to stoke up tensions !!

    As for MTV Belfast Council shouldnt change the law – we’ve enough problems weekend after weekend at the Oydessy

  • your paraphrasing sums up how you cherry pick bjj.
    I did try reading it and still don’t understand what you are on about.
    “So called residents” any evidence to suggest that they are not from the area?
    yeah we should stick with arcane laws dating from the first world war….so now we know you are as one with Mr Nelson and stuck in the past

  • No its called my view – sorry it doesnt fit with anti east belfast stance

    Still no comment or thoughts why the so called residents would have a counter demo on the Albertbridge ?

    Maybe you missed the addresses of some of the rioters from a few weeks – not residents of the short strand

    As for drinking lets hope you come back to this issue after the gay pride parade

  • err this thread isn’t about East Belfast or your tired ole perception that i am anti East Belfast. I’m not, i just happen to document where i live and show what people like you don’t want to be seen.
    I have commented re the counter demo but you clearly can’t get past our own pre conception to bother reading it. Do you know for a fact that the people in the demo were the same scrotes that were rioting. Until you have any evidence and fact of that i can only see your comments as (the usual) whataboutery thinly disguised as honest opinion.
    As for Pride, like last years thread on my photo essay of the 12th at Barnett Demense you are yapping up the wrong tree because Pride is a licensed event.

  • MP, I note your use of ‘cherry pick’ and would like to point out your own failing in that regard when you refer to the 12th. Drew’s reference was to all young people, including those who attend an Orange fleadh 😉

    I took some photos in Bushmills last July where I think there’s clear evidence of street drinking of alcohol and field drinking of tea. Sadly one of the tea drinkers is no longer with us; he died a few months ago. The final image is of King William mounted – above a no public drinking sign!

  • Its ok Nevin maybe he didnt mean to write this

    “It remains to be seen how “robust” the response to on street drinking will be this 12th”

    or maybe hes claiming theres no drinking in east belfast on the 12th lol

    No you don’t document where you live – if you did you’d go into the short strand but your afraid to do so.

    So you don’t think its sinister to have a counter demo no where near the returning parade ?

    Gay pride a licensed event – could you clarifty does that license included all streets in the city centre ?

    Oh i remember that so called essay of the kids faces – you planning more this year ?

  • between the bridges

    nevin.. nice pic’s.. but i don’t understand there are orange men, bands, banners, and crowds but no riots? there must be a fifth element…

  • btb, there are several other elements. There were no anti-OO protesters and very few police officers. There were quite a few problems around the mid-90s when the Drumcree debacle was at its height: IIRC pressure put on a Catholic-owned business to fly the Union flag, an attack on the little Catholic Church, vehicles set on fire and the loss of OO influence to paramilitaries. Various deals seem to have been done with Government agencies as the coloured kerbstones and paramilitary related flags have largely disappeared. The windows boarded up by developers are still a major blight on the appearance of the town. The visual evidence of the arson attacks on the properties leased by a Bulgarian businessman has now been erased.

    This year’s parade is in Ballycastle. Let’s hope it’s just as trouble free.

  • between the bridges

    nevin, thanks for that i always wondered why 98% of PUL parades are trouble free…

  • galloglaigh

    Brian, my history is 100%. I don’t need to add anything to it as dwatch has done a fine job. One thing I will say: While the 36th Ulster division and the UVF were two separate entities, ie one was full of brave men, and the other was full of bigots and cowards, the 36th Ulster division most probably had some volunteers who were also in the UVF. Fast forward to 1974, and the report outlining joint UDR and UDA/UVF membership, given your argument, it would suggest that the UDR was also the UDA/UVF. Do you agree with this? Were the UDR also the UDA/UVF?

    P.S. Loyalists are only, and only ever were, loyal to the five pound note!

  • Drumlins Rock

    Gallo, read most of that report, at the highest estimate there could have been 5% of the UDR membership with paramilitary connections, although not as quick to act as they should have most of these were eventually weeded out so to comparison does not stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

    As for the Old UVF/36th Ulster div. in August 1914 Kitchener said ” I want the Ulster Volunteers” which at that stage numbered about 85,000 men between the ages of 16 and 60, those able to sign up later became the vast bulk of the 36th’s recruits and even initially carried over the structures, officers and weapons of the UVF until such times as they were fully integrated into the British Army.

  • galloglaigh

    DR, the lowest estimate was 5%. Read the full report. Given the argument vis-a-vis the 36th Ulster/1914 UVF and the UDR/UDA/UVF, it says it all about the loyalist attitude to the UDA/UVF. The UVF of 1914 were never part of the British army. If you can point me to a link that shows the 1914 UVF were part of the British army, I’ll accept it. They were a militia whose sole purpose was to frighten the fenians from rebellion, and to force a civil war should Ireland be granted freedom from British/Ulster unionist fascism.

    While the brave men of the Irish brigades fought against fascism in Europe, the Irish at home were still suffering the effects of unionist fascism in Ireland. This continued until 1969, when the fenians had enough and decided to fight back.

  • btb, it’s probably worth emphasising the point that a problem exacerbated in one place can, perhaps create an unpredictable reaction elsewhere. Apart from the Drumcree/Bushmills connection we may have seen the same thing at Dunloy/Harryville and, just recently, North Belfast/East Belfast.

    At the time of the tragic murder of young Mickey Bo in Ballymena I decided to have a look at Bebo. I was alarmed at the apparent support for loyalist and republican marching bands, including the language used. I drew Bebo’s attention to several of these sites and they were promptly removed; when I suggested that all such sites were inappropriate Bebo promptly removed – its phone number!

    I passed my thoughts to NICCY but I doubt if it felt energized to act in any significant way.

  • dwatch

    “Were the UDR also the UDA/UVF?”

    Gallo, Have to agree with DR here, in fact a friend of mine who served 6 years in the Irish Guards in the early 70’s, was de mobbed and came home to join the UDR, but was rejected because his brother was charged with UVF activity. Thats how serious the UDR were determined to weed out those who had friends or even family connections with or in the UVF.

  • galloglaigh

    dwatch, while that is commendable, my point is simple. Loyalists and the Orange Order claim that the UVF of 1914, were also the 36th Ulster Division that fought against European fascism. The 36th Ulster Division were not the UVF, although cross membership might have existed. The UVF bigots who never fought in WWI, have no connection to those of the 36th Ulster Division who did fight. To say that the UVF regimental band is a commemoration to those who died in Europe, is to take a big shite on the brave men who fought in Europe, and to glorify bigots and cowards who stayed behind to defend the fascist union that existed in Ireland.

    For the Orange Order to commemorate the Somme, and to use the UVF Regimental band, is simply disgusting, and takes a big shite on the 36th Ulster Division. I know that men in their thousands, from places like Derry and Donegal, joined the Ulster Brigades, and they had nothing to do with the bigoted Orange Order/UVF. It is distasteful and disrespectful to the memory of the brave men from the Irish Brigades, who actually took it upon themselves to join up and fight fascism.

  • between the bridges

    GG..The honour of providing the first detachment of recruits was claimed by the South Belfast Regiment of the UVF. The special service battalion of that regiment paraded at Dunmore early on 4 September and was addressed by Carson. They then marched with Carson and Craig at their head to the Old Town Hall, which had become a recruiting depot. The first man to pass the medical examination and become the first recruit was William Hanna of 43 Brussels Street, a veteran of the Boer War. On the opening day 600 men went before the doctors and only 40 were rejected. The following day, men from the East, South and West Belfast battalions and the Young Citizens Volunteers began enlisting. Outside Belfast, anticipating the formation of the Ulster Division, Ambrose Ricardo had raised two companies from the Tyrone UVF, which were to become the nucleus of the 9th Battalion of the Royal Irish Inniskilling Fusiliers.

  • galloglaigh

    BTB, The UVF were not a British army regiment. While the 36th Ulster Division might have had some UVF personnel, they were not the UVF, they were the 36th Ulster. If your argument is to stand up, then so does the argument of the Kevin Lynch Hurling Club, a team which Kevin Lynch was a member of. You’re quite hypocritical in this instance. Would you agree?

  • between the bridges

    GG as for the orange not being allowed to commemorate the Somme etc….
    .During WW1 the Orange Order left no doubt as to the Orders’ loyalty to King and Country. The Orange Order had more members volunteer for military service in WW1 than any other politico-religious organisation in the world. It is estimated that more than 200 000 Orangemen saw service in WW1 including 80 000 from Canada alone. It is estimated that 3 out of every 10 Canadian soldiers who enlisted were members of the Orange Order. Many Orange Lodges never reopened after the war due to the very high number of Lodge members who were killed. In addition to Orangemen from Great Britain and Canada, Orangemen from the United States, Australia, New Zealand and several smaller countries volunteered their services for King and Country. The first Australian killed in WW1 was Able Seaman William George Vincent William who was an Orangeman with Loyal Orange Lodge (L.O.L) 92 Melbourne. The sacrifice of the Orangemen was great as was their bravery. The resolve of those young men may be seen in the dying words of Bro. Pt. F. Holt, 4th Kings Liverpool Regiment, (a Member of L.O.L.782) fatally wounded at Neuve Chapelle on 14 April, 1915 who told his comrades “I have done my duty to my King and Country and I have not forgotten the Orange obligation I took in 782”. Due to records being lost or destroyed it is not possible to know the exact number of Victoria Crosses awarded to Orangemen but at least five are known.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Gallo, it was a high estimate of 5% for the whole regiment, with a high of 15% in some areas, and as dwatch has illustrated that 5% / 15% included many who’s only connection was via another family member or associate.

    As for the UVF and 36th Ulster connections, they were virtually one and the same, just google it, try this quote to start from a WW1 website “In September 1914, the Ulster Division was formed from the Ulster Volunteer Force which raised thirteen battalions for the three Irish regiments based in Ulster:” any reference to the 36th almost always includes its connection to the UVF.
    or if you want there is always Wikipedia “In September 1914, the Ulster Division was formed from the Ulster Volunteer Force which raised thirteen battalions for the three Irish regiments based in Ulster”.
    I will let it rest there as this isn’t really the subject of the thread, but if you can produce some evidence to disprove the assertion that the 36th as substantially composed of members of the old UVF please let me know.
    It goes without saying of course that the modern group calling themselves have no connection to the old UVF and are a disgusting insult to their memory.

  • dwatch

    Gallo, my grandfather and his brother were in the 1912 UVF. They and many like them did not join the 36 Ulster division because they were were too old. Their original reason for being in the UVF was because having signed the 1912 covenant they were prepared to fight against being forced into a home rule Ireland.

    Throughout WW1 many of these UVF men formed army reserve battalions, which met, paraded and did rifle drill because they believed after the war was over they (all ages) still might be forced to fight against a home rule Ireland. History knowledge (of partition) as we know today was not available to them during the 1914/18 war years.

  • dwatch

    or if you want there is always Wikipedia “In September 1914, the Ulster Division was formed from the Ulster Volunteer Force which raised thirteen battalions for the three Irish regiments based in Ulster”.

    Gallo, Wikipedia is written, by the public, If you wish to edit or change the above statement you have every right to do so.

  • between the bridges

    GG…at my local county OO Somme memorial parade three wreaths where laid in memory of all the WW1 dead from all three Irish divisions is this in your words ‘ take a big shite on the brave men who fought in Europe’? some research may enlighten you as too what bigotry is…

  • galloglaigh

    BTB, no one has said that the Orange Order shouldn’t commemorate the Somme. To commemorate them using the UVF regimental band is distasteful and disgusting. Why don’t they use the 36th Ulster Division Regimental Band? Why do they use the Trevor King band? A UVF man who died in 1994, not 1914! Again you’re being hypocritical given your argument against the Kevin Lynch Hurling Club in Dungiven.

    DR, While members of the UVF joined the British army to fight in Europe, the UVF were never a British army regiment. They were a culmination of sectarian bigots, many of whom were involved in the sectarian pogroms in Belfast in 1910. I note that you have still to provide a link showing that the UVF of 1914 were part of the British army. Don’t waste your time, I can tell you now for nothing – they weren’t a British army regiment, they were an illegal sectarian militia, who came about during Home Rule 3. Their sole purpose was to threaten civil war in Ireland, should the British government grant freedom to Ireland. A freedom from fascism that the 36th Ulster Division fought for in Europe.

    Now, when you find that link that shows the UVF fought in Europe, I’ll gladly accept your point. Until then the Orange Order are shiting on the memory of the brave men who fought in Europe, by using the UVF Regimental Band, as well as bands like the Star of the Shankill and the Trevor King Band in Somme commemorations.

  • between the bridges

    BTB, no one has said that the Orange Order shouldn’t commemorate the Somme…from the horses mouth…
    “For the Orange Order to commemorate the Somme, and to use the UVF Regimental band, is simply disgusting, and takes a big shite on the 36th Ulster Division.”

  • galloglaigh

    Indeed it does take a big shite on the 36th Ulster Division. The UVF were not the 36th Ulster. I had members of my family who fought at the Somme, and who were part of the 36th Ulster. They were not UVF and neither was the 36th Ulster. The Orange Order should take a good hard look at the bands they use to commemorate the Somme. I can’t see why they feel the need to include the Star of the Shankill, the Trevor King band, or the UVF Regimental band, among others, as they had nothing do do with the Somme, and have more connection to the sectarian murder of innocent Catholics. Be that 1910 or 1969-present day.

    The GAA should also take a look at itself, and encourage the Kevin Lynch club and others to change the name of the club.

    Wouldn’t you agree?

  • andnowwhat

    Here’s a question; what would happen to a music festival if it was persistantly associated with public drinking and drunkeness?

    Just recently, one has been dseclined permission to hold a rave (doubt that’s still the name) in the King’s Hall due to complaints, many of which could be easily aimed at the onlookers of the 12th.

    I’m an ex doorman and have also marshalled big open air festivals. I’ve taken drink (when customers attempt to partake it off the licesnsed property), drugs and even weapons off people. It’s piece of piss if you know how to do it.

  • galloglaigh

    ANW, wasn’t there a music festival two years ago in Antrim, where the organiser paid for the PSNI to police the event, and they also paid for the clean up costs incurred by the council.

    Now there’s a thought!

  • between the bridges

    GG as you describe your solution one has to ‘take a good long hard look’ and another has to ‘encourage’ not quite the equally constructive agreement you are trying to present…although it would be fun to see how ‘one’ defines the ‘others’ culture/bigotry and trade off the bits we don’t like it is but a fantasy.

  • galloglaigh

    BTB:

    “The Orange Order should take a good hard look at the bands they use to commemorate the Somme”

    “The GAA should also take a look at itself, and encourage…”

    Did I miss something?

    You’re now avoiding my valid point regarding Somme commemorations, and loyalist bands who have nothing to do with the Somme, but have more to do with the sectarian murder of Catholics!

  • between the bridges

    GG “Did I miss something?” yes, and you will continue to do so that is my point…

  • galloglaigh

    BTB, my point is quite clear. You have failed to address it. Instead you’re being pedantic because that is your last port of attack.

    I take it you support the UVF Regimental Band, The Star of the Shankill, and the Trevor King Band in Somme commemorations?

    I take it you would also agree with a republican band marching up the Shankill to commemorate Thomas Begley?

    Back to my original point. You agree that the Orange Order have every right to commemorate the Somme while walking behind the UVF Regimental Band. Yet you don’t agree that a GAA club in Dungiven should name their club after Kevin Lynch.

    Is that not a little hypocritical of you?

    “… it would be fun to see how ‘one’ defines the ‘others’ culture/bigotry and trade off the bits we don’t like it is but a fantasy”

    I rest my case!

  • Cranmer

    I look forward to post Tennants Vital discussion on here regarding public drinking and will await with great eagerness moochin photoman’s in no way one one sided photographic documentation..

  • Cranmer

    IIRC the Regimental Bandof the U.V.F. were formed before the current U.V.F. I have never heard of the ‘Trevor King Band’, from what area do they eminate and what parades have they taken part in?

  • Belfastjj…
    “No you don’t document where you live – if you did you’d go into the short strand but your afraid to do so.”

    That has to go down in slugger history as the most puerile/childish comment ever. Pathetic absolutely pathetic, get out of the school ground.
    And as regards what i may or may be doing this 12th, if kids are stupid enough to have a hateful slogan (which doesn’t mean Keep Antrim Tidy) painted on their faces not only will i photograph them but i will make sure that whoever is doing the painting will be arrested for inciting sectarian hatred.

    Nevin Mr Nelsons comments and i quote the bbc report linked
    “came after the order and the police pledged a robust approach to those drinking near parades.”

    How can that be cherry picking ffs?

  • Not so difficult.

    http://www.bandparades.co.uk/trevor-king-memorial-parade-2009/

    Trevor king was a UVF leader who was murdered by the IRA.

  • galloglaigh

    And of course that’s the Trevor King Memorial Parade and not a band. I looked on You Tube and found many videos of previous parades. Most of the bands have members who lead with Poppy wreaths which are laid in memory of this sectarian killer.

    I suppose that’s OK for people to shit on the memory of those who the wreaths do represent; the brave 36th Ulster, who were not the UVF, nor the Orange Order!

    The current UVF is the same UVF set up by Carson. The same UVF who were parading on the Crumlin road last year. Same shite, different century.

  • galloglaigh

    That link should have taken you here!

  • between the bridges

    GG rest your case? lol, your case began with saying the Uvf and the 36th Ulster division had no connections, you went further to say the OO had no right to commemorate the Somme. Now a bit of back tracking later your into what you believe construes’ a ‘fair offer’ i.e. 3 bands you don’t like (or probably three bands you can actually name) against ‘encouraging’ a club to rename, how impartial of you! given that by your standards the 1912 uvf and the modern day uvf and bands are ‘all the same’, perhaps it would have be better to label the modern 1966 UVF the NUVF ‘new UVF’, because alphabet soup labeling changes everything that a 50 year gap doesn’t…i.e. IRA, PIRA, CIRA, RIRA now that’s how ya prove there are no links!!!

  • MP, why did you cherry-pick on the 12th in your thread when Drew’s comment was self-evidently much more wide-ranging: “”We are finding that a lot of young people, more than there used to be, are on the streets not just during our parades, but at other festivals and fleadhs that happen in the province,” he said.

    “More young people seem to be drinking on the streets than was formerly the case.”?

  • galloglaigh

    Show me where I said the Orange Order have no right to commemorate the Somme. I said that “For the Orange Order to commemorate the Somme, and to use the UVF Regimental band, is simply disgusting, and takes a big shite on the 36th Ulster Division.”

    The very fact that the republican organisations have split, split again, and split again, shows that they are not the same. The various feuds that they have been involved in, shows that they are different.

    Now how about addressing my earlier points regarding the difference between the 36th Ulster, the UVF (1914-last week on the Short Strand), and the Orange Order. You’re tied up in knots, and you’re now avoiding the previous argument.

    Address the points before you shift the goal posts!