“they’ve all sold out on the Irish people.”

A Newshound transcribed report of the alleged assault and attempted intimidation of former Sinn Féin member, Colm Lynagh, in Clones last weekend includes this snippet.

Gerry Adams delivered the oration at Jim Lynagh’s funeral. At that time, Martin McGuiness was already engaged in secret meetings with MI6 agent Michael Oakley.

Yet Adams told mourners at the graveside: “Anyone who does business with the British, the SDLP or the Free State establishment are fools as they’ve all sold out on the Irish people.”

The Sinn Féin president, Gerry Adams, is now a TD for Louth.

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  • Dec

    I thought Oakley and McGuiness only met for the first time in 1991 (Jim Lynagh’s funeral being in 1987)?

  • Neil

    Of course it’s the nature of the situation here that leads to so much hyocrisy. From Paisley’s ‘Never, Never, Never’ oration at the 12th celebrations, about two months before swapping ‘never’ for ‘aye, why not’, to Adams ‘not a bullet, not an ounce’, to the British Government ‘we do not talk to terrorists’.

    Thankfully we can rely on Pete harking back to the good ole days when everyone stuck to their guns, no one talked to anyone and people died day and daily. Of course that’s probably not right, I would imagine (I could be wrong but who knows) that Pete’s probably supportive of Ian Paisley’s hypocrisy, and that of the British Government.

    It’s really just SF’s hypocrisy that’s of interest, because there was really no way that the IRA could stop without being hypocritical and parting with their previous statements.

    So the thread could be titled ‘IRA moves away from violence, goes back on previous statements’ but then that news is over a decade old. Good that you’re still posting about it though, I’m sure it’ll still be fresh when you’re digging out old SF statements for our delectation in 2021 Pete.

  • Elsewhere on Slugger the threads have talked about how hunger strikers were let die to max the electoral foothold of SF. So hardly odd for the same lot to shop a few Provos who were an impediment to the strategy of exiting war and into Stormont? Neil has it about right there on all the parties involved. Shinners not alone on this one.

  • AGlassOfHine

    Neil has it wrong from the beginning !!

    Never,never,never,at 12th celebration ??

    Pete is merely pointing out the vile hypocrisy of shinnerism,(not that we need it pointed out),and the usual suspects go into denial drive.

    Your vile deeds haven’t gone away,ya know !!!

  • Dec

    AGlass

    Pete has linked to a report that states when Gerry Adams was rejecting talks with the British government (amongst others) his deputy was engaged in secret talks with an MI6 officer.

    Unfortunately those talks didn’t actually occur until 4 years later. Now I know Pete is big on his timelines (see the multiple threads about Gerry Adams and Eric Idle songs) so I’m confidant we’ll see an update sooner rather than later.

  • AGlassOfHine

    dec

    neil has pointed out Paisleys,*never,never,never* rant at a 12th celebration ??
    Now I may be wrong,but I think you’ll find that was in Belfast City Centre…….

    So,having established that falsehood,I too await an update with confidence !!

  • AGlassOfHine

    dec

    re El Beardo and Eric Idle songs…………………do you think El Beardo speaks with forked memory ?? 😉

  • AGlassOfHine

    Anyone interested in pointing out vile hypocrisy !!

  • ranger1640

    It seems everyone, from the British Government to uncle Joe Cobbly is up for scrutiny and criticism, with one small exception under pain of death don’t mention the hypocrisy of Adams, McGuinness and the Sinn Fein project. A Robert McCartney or a Paul Quinn fate awaits you.

  • Crubeen

    and nowwhat,

    “The once very good Breen has degenerted in to an attention seeking hack.”

    So let me get this straight – if she writes stuff you like, she’s very good but if she writes stuff you don’t like, then she’s just another hack.

    Let’s put a different slant on it all – militant republicanism fought a war it couldn’t win and militant republicanism would still like to fight a war it can’t win. Anybody with an ounce of sense can see the truth in that but if you still can’t, then I suggest you read up on some of the material out there on insurgency and asymmetric warfare. And before you ask I’m supplying no links to make it easier for you. The fundamental and essential pre-requisite for victory in asymmetric warfare is that the population is either in favour or, at least, not irrevocably opposed to the objective sought. As most of the people in N Ireland were irrevocably opposed to the Republican objective the campaign was doomed to failure from the start and still is. If you want a Republican All-Ireland state you have to persuade (not coerce) that population.

    It took how many years for that truth to dawn in shades of militant republicanism and some of them still haven’t got the message … who are the intellectually challenged in the body politic and who talk out of both sides of their mouths as well as their fundaments?

  • perseus

    desperate post
    peteb you seem to go from outer space posts
    to pointless done-to-death bottom-feeding ones,
    what is your point?

  • Cynic2

    Thanks guys. So SF didn’t sell out until 1990 /91 rather than in 1987. That clarifies it for us.

  • Mark

    So Cynic , would you prefer they kept going then ? You’re a Unionist right ….. so which is it ? They either sold out or took a decision to join the political process , you can’t have it both ways . Oh I forgot , you’re a Unionist – you think you can .

  • Henry94

    Mark

    I’m sure we would have had threads congratulating them on their consistency.

  • Mark

    Too right Henry ! and it’s hilarious that Pete is now using the Sunday World as a reference point ..Whizzer and Chips for slow learners …..

  • JoeBryce

    Yes, I think Pete should stop this. I just don’t see the point of raking up 25 year old statements like this. I said things back then that I regret and maybe, for all I know, Pete did too. The point is that most republicans have moved on, and as a matter of fact so too have most unionists, witness Jim Allister’s flop last week. Both those facts are to be celebrated. Let’s all go on processing: it’s a hell of a lot better than what went before. The future is more interesting than the past, which no doubt is the subliminal message behind all those fascinating space posts.

  • perseus

    actually Joe I think Mick should stop pete doing this.
    other posters get carded for nursing their ” pet hates”
    rightfully so. that’s the hypocrisy of this thread folks.

  • “Yet Adams told mourners at the graveside ..”

    What did you expect him to say, Pete? He appears not to have much of a reputation for truth-telling. Also, a message you deliver in a time of ‘war’ is hardly likely to be the one you deliver during a time of ‘peace’.

  • Mark

    JoeBryce ,

    You’re right , most Unionists have moved on and I hope you weren’t offended by my jibe at Cynic2 – he knows I respect him . The future is more interesting than the past and for Pete’s sake , I hope he too moves on .Maybe we could all club in and get him a flight to the moon with Richard Branson and Jedward ……

  • Mr Crumlin

    Agree Perseus – a tired story.

    So Gerry Adams gave out a hard line at the graveside of a volunteer – 25 years ago, during the war!!

    Its hardly breaking news.

    Also I can understand (even if I dont agree) that some families of volunteers feel left behind. I guess its the same way that some RUC widows feel let down and betrayed by the British Govt when they see Gerry Kelly on the policing board.

    BUT – most people, including bereaved families, understand that the peace process has been good for this island and whether the likes of Pete Baker like it or not – that peace process is down to Gerry Adams and others.

    I would have supported what Adams said in his oration and I agree with Sinn Fein now.

  • Mick Fealty

    RIght You Lot!

    Read the commenting rules. I’ve had it up to here (waves figuratively in the virtual ether) with this fair gaming of Pete Baker.

    Next idiot to even look (illegitimately, of course) sideways in his direction will take a Yellow (or a Red if you’ve been similarly naughty in the past).

  • perseus

    Mick, you got time for a comment on the actual thread
    what is the ball here? that were supposed to be following?
    I have asked what is the point of the thread? @ 5:50pm

  • Mr Crumlin

    (Mr Crumlin’s words are spoken by an actor).

    I disagree with the contents of this thread. You cannot compare the comments of someone during a war and put them into today’s world.

    Thats why it was ok to kill Germans in 1943 but it isnt now.

  • gréagóir o frainclín

    Gerry & Co are mere political opportunists just like the rest the world over.

    (oh and these new heirs – ‘eirigi’ are just the same…..and threatening violence for their own gain.)

    Exploiting the people is their game.

    People are foolish to be led like sheep!

  • Mick Fealty

    Percy,

    It is simple. You are playing the man, rather than the ball. If you have nothing of relevance to add, and you don’t want a RED, then keep your counsel.

    To anyone else it may concern. This thread is now going down a very unsavoury route. It’s doing so, because a number of you (some, Henry, who should know better) are straying way outside the rules.

    I’ll happily stop the comments on it if prevents a riot (what do you think Twitter is for?)

    Pete’s post will stand. Some of you who persist on trying to close him down because you cannot argue rationally with what he’s posted here will not.

    Dec,

    I’ll email Niall O Dochartaigh to see if he has a view on your point.

  • Turgon

    Clearly it is unacceptable if Colm Lynagh was assaulted by anyone. The hypocrisy of “mainstream” republicans attacking him is rank.

    Still on post, however, the hypocrisy of all of them: Colm Lynagh and Gerry Adams in their orations etc. of Jim Lynagh is equally rank.

    I know a little bit about Jim Lynagh or more particularly his activities. He almost certainly murdered at least one person whose relatives I am friendly with. Lynagh was no heroic warrior: he was a cold blooded murderer. He was no more left wing than Pol Pot’s henchmen. Whatever his proclaimed politics they manifested themselves in the murder of innocent people. He was reputed to have a specific method of murdering people: more the actions of a psychopath than those of anything else.

    The idea of him supposedly creating “liberated” zones in Northern Ireland as part of a Moaist strategy is utter nonsense. He was involved in a vicious campaign of murder. When he died he and his fellow criminals were attacking a small rural RUC station in Loughgall. Loughgall is a small almost exclusively Protestant village: the inhabitants of Loughgall will have had absolutely no wish to have been “liberated” by Lynagh and his thugs. The fact that the commemorations of his death are never held where he died are of course illustrative of the fact that no one in Loughgall would have wanted his murdering ilk around. It is a no go zone for worship of IRA murderers.

    Many in the republican movement proclaim that Lynagh and his cohorts were “murdered” when in reality they were the murderers. I try very hard not to laugh at or enjoy the deaths of anyone and always would rather criminals were arrested. However, arrest was clearly impossible with eight terrorists with automatic weapons and I find it difficult to find any regret that a thug like Lynagh found his end in such a way.

    Any attack on his brother is to be condemned and yes indeed many in the republican movement are hypocrites even if they did not set up Jim Lynagh for his death. However, it is difficult to find any common feeling with someone who says anyone is unfit to tie Lynagh’s boots. Jim Lynagh was no hero, he was a murderer; was trying to murder people and got himself killed.

  • Sean o Russell

    Yet Adams told mourners at the graveside: “Anyone who does business with the British, the SDLP or the Free State establishment are fools as they’ve all sold out on the Irish people.”-Never call a shovel a spade.Absurd?-

    ‘If the irish people were afforded the Right to Vote for Reunification in 1998,we wouldn’t be where we are,In Denial.
    The calculated arrest of ‘alternative republicans like Marion Price,Gerry Mcgeogh,Gary Donnelly etc. is giving the ‘wrong impression to ‘democracy….

    The ironic thing about the ‘unionist position is that they would have had more of a voice in a ‘federal republic….

    Now our childerns future is dependent on the ‘rabbit theory..
    Who can outbreed the otherside…

  • Nunoftheabove

    I for one can understand Mr. Lynagh’s concerns and disappointments and I would very much hope and trust that he’s co-operating fully with his local police in order to apprehend these apparently thoroughly unpleasant people.

    Still, it’s reassuring to know the elite are out there keeping an eye on national matters on our sadly deluded and shamefully treacherous west brit behalves, taking a stand and taking the blows for truth and for freedom in the only spot where it really matters – Clones.

  • Let me try to get this right. Twenty years ago Jim Lynagh murdered people for a united Ireland and Gerry Adams agreed with him, and that is alright?

    Gerry Adams changes his mind and decides to work for a UI democratically, and that is not right?

    However when Mr Colm Lynagh is beaten up (a tried and tested campaigning tool) the violence against him is definitely not right?

    It seems that Its ok to beat people up and even kill them if you are on the right side.

    I’m sorry Mr Colm Lynagh was attacked that should not have happened but neither should Mr Jim Lynagh have been murdering people.

  • perseus

    too pessemisitic sean, its a journey cara
    only when your on it, do you understand it.

    The journey say from caterpillar to butterfly
    where the grub was the IRA
    the pupa or chrysalis is Stormont
    the imago or final stage are the wings of Unity.

    http://www.irishbutterflies.com/

    nothing to do with rabbits or something as vulgar as finance.

  • Henry94

    The key point of the article as I read it is the alleged assault

    He was punched several times and ordered to stop criticising Sinn Féin leaders.

    What is missing is any mention of a report to the Gardai or any investigation of this serious allegation. Given the hostility to Sinn Fein in dissident circles it is legitimate to be sceptical of such claims unless there is a formal statement to the Gardai. I think the journalist was remiss if they didn’t find that out and include it.

  • Cynic2

    Mark

    ” So Cynic , would you prefer they kept going then ?”

    My post was satirical.

    Pete started this and that led to a frenzy of posts from people alleging that the actual talks started 4 years later – not when Adams was speaking at the oration. This was then used to argue to shut down any posts by Pete because he was pursuing an Agenda against the Great Bearded One.

    The purpose of my post was to point out the hypocrisy in this ie if the words at the oration were genuinely meant then it was of little significance whether the negotiations started then or 4 years later.

    As for your question. I am glad they recognised that the war was lost and stopped I just wish they had realised many years before

  • Cynic2

    Perseus

    ” the imago or final stage are the wings of Unity ”

    Keep hoping. Another couple of hundred years, perhaps

  • perseus

    cynic2 hope has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
    It is process, the caterpillar becomes the butterfly

    Picking over the abandoned skin of the larvae is to miss the point entirely;
    which is why the thread is tiresome.
    Its been explained 1000 times already.

    No two people can go with the metamorphosis at the same pace.
    That goes for the dissidents, and those allegedly still “tooled-up” provos.

  • Mark

    Cynic2 ,

    My question to you had a tint of sarcasm to it as I’m sure you know . I appreciate your thoughts on the matter however . My own take on it would be that the Provos realised the war ( luv the Republican terminology btw , keep it up ) had reached a stalement and they should start talking …..again .

  • Mick Fealty

    Henry,

    It is also important to note (given the foregoing idiocy) that Pete doesn’t comment on any of that, or even any of the material he presents. He merely presents some of it.

    But it is useful to ponder that Mr Adams’ comments back then mirror almost exactly the comments of the dissidents now.

    And for the record, it is Oatley, not Oakley. And it also looks as if Dec was bang on in regard to the date of their meeting..

  • sdelaneys

    perseus ‘The journey say from caterpillar to butterfly
    where the grub was the IRA’

    I’m afraid a big magpie in the shape of Britain has eaten that grub.

  • Cynic2

    Mick

    The first ‘meeting’ was 1991 but for how long before that were the negotiations going on via third parties? There were several years of preliminaries leading to the meeting

  • Cynic2

    sdelaneys

    The grub was two thirds dead anyway as the Brits had been spraying it for DDT for years

  • Alias

    McGuinness would have been recruited by MI6 when that agency had the lead role in controlling the murder gangs in NI. It was Sean MacStiofain, the chief of staff of PIRA, who included McGuinness (along with the other tout, Adams) in the 1972 delegation to London. Sean MacStiofain was also a tout handled by C3 section of the Gardai. That branch was in turn controlled by MI6. That was the year that Patrick Crinnion, the private secretary to the head of Irish Special Branch, was arrested in Dublin for spying on the Irish state along with his MI6 handler, John Wyman (alias). His handler was released without charge. The Commissioner of the Gardai, Edmund Garvey, was another agent handled by British intelligence. He was later sacked without explanation by the Irish state. Infiltration occurs at all strata within Ireland, north and south.

    Incidentally, Slugger regular, Mick Hall, has a good article on Anthony McIntyre’s blog:

    “As Mr McGuinness’s behaviour was identical to the unionists, who swear allegiance to the English queen, it is difficult not to conclude he has evolved into a loyal servant of the British crown and more importantly, it seems Tory politicians like Owen Patterson regard him as such.”

    http://thepensivequill.am/2011/05/level-of-absurd.html

  • Munsterview

    Alias : “…along with his MI6 handler, John Wyman (alias)…”

    Well. well John ! I was wondering when you would show up again but do you think it is wise to ‘out’ yourself like this on slugger …. lots of people with long memories and all to that you know ? So it was Israel all along and not South Africa ?

  • AGlassOfHine

    Playing the man there Munster………….

    Out of curiosity,what exactly does,”lots of people with long memories and all to that you know”,mean,in English ? 😉

  • Henry94

    Mick

    Pete does not comment on it but if he links to the article then it is part of the ball and we can comment on it surely.

    “But it is useful to ponder that Mr Adams’ comments back then mirror almost exactly the comments of the dissidents now.”

    Why is that useful? It only encourages the dissidents in their belief that the Agreement makes no difference and that violence is justified. Slugger appears to have a policy of legitimising the dissidents as part of a broader anti-Adams agenda. That strikes me as a dangerous game.

  • “I thought Oakley and McGuiness only met for the first time in 1991”

    Didn’t Oatley (MI6) and McGuinness meet in London in 1972 and on numerous occasions thereafter? Weren’t Adams and McGuinness considered by the UK establishment as people with whom they could do business? Surely this is quite different from notions of being a tout or an agent. Immunity from prosecution would be a consequence of such a business arrangement. When ‘Martin and Mitchel’ met with Douglas Hurd in Derry in November 1993, they weren’t just meeting with the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, they were meeting the boss of MI6.

  • Lionel Hutz

    Henry,

    Surely the point is not about showing up Gerry Adams as a hypocrite, more that is a natural consequence of demonstrating that militant republicanism is the same now as it was then and at all times illegitimate. There is strange thinking in your post that says essentially that if dissidents are the same as the provos, then they are somehow legitimised. Surely what we need to expose that neither was legitimate. The dangerous part is to allow the provisional campaign to be written into Irish history as some sort of heroic struggle

  • Mick Fealty

    Of course (to your first point) Henry.

    On ‘is it useful’ to know what a politician said 25 years ago, of course it is. But how on earth does reporting it legitimise dissident violence?

    In fact, I am in favour of political hypocrisy (http://url.ie/b635). Ferdinand Mount from a few years back:

    “The political leader is not a god set apart from his people. Most of the time, as Mandeville pointed out, even the most skilful politician must be a slave to the fashions of the times. What he stands behind is not so much a mask as a solar panel, which picks up the public heat, absorbs it and transforms it into energy. At its best, there is a benign synergy, but that can happen only if the facts are shared and if the debate is conducted honestly. The democracy that really matters is the democracy of information.”

    What I don’t accept is that sharing facts/information is somehow a subversive act. The attempt to characterise it as such, is again an attempt to run a critic off the road without having to deal directly with the material raised.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    People change, circumstances changnd events take place that

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    People change, circumstances change and events take place that have a profound effect on expected outcomes.

    There are some like Colm Lynagh who are oblivious to changing circumstances and want to plough on regardless.

  • Mick Fealty

    Pat,

    I would not gainsay that. Without wishing to denigrate the forward movement of the last six years, it might help if the movement could put together a more compelling argument as to why this is the more viable route to a UI.

  • “it might help if the movement could put together a more compelling argument”

    It seems the electorate doesn’t need one. As for forward movement, Jim Allister has given the DUP a lashing following the movement’s selection for the policing board: Kelly, Sheehan and Ruane. Such a selection is a nod to the movement’s infamous past.

  • oracle

    Mick,

    As to the assumption that Dec was bang on the money date wise you are wrong!
    McGuinness was meeting Oatley many years before the officially released date.
    There were secret channels back in 1981 ten years before Dec’s accepted date

  • Mick Fealty

    That’s a conjecture, not documented anywhere that I know of.

  • Cynic2

    I think the point is that direct negotiations started in 1991. Indirectly they had gone on since early in the Thatcher Administration using a range of intermediaries

  • OK. The date is wrong. 1. Did Gerry say it and mean it. 2. Were the talks (whatever year, and it is only a few years difference and seriously what had changed) in direct contraction with the meaning Gerry intended. 3. Talks between the IRA and the British Government had been on/off since 1972 (and in particular around Derry, so a) was Gerry talking through his hat b) Gerry wasn’t in the IRA and didn’t know what was going on.

  • Mick F

    When you wrote ‘the movement’ I am presuming you mean the PRM, if so I agree with your point. However it seems to me those republicans who still engage in armed struggle equally need to make it clear why they believe one more heave will result in ‘any’ forward movement towards the 32.

    Looking at Irish republicanism as a whole today, it is difficult to recognise it as the same movement which in the late 70s and 1980s had so much vitality and intellectual curiosity.

  • Alias

    “Surely this is quite different from notions of being a tout or an agent.

    Perhaps, but let’s look at an example of ‘meeting’ with the other side and of colluding with them.

    Edmund Garvey, Commissioner of the Gardai, met with MI6 operative in Ireland, Fred Holroyd. Garvey denied ever meeting with him but Justice Barron concluded that “The visit by Holroyd to Garda Headquarters unquestionably did take place, notwithstanding former Commissioner Garvey’s inability to recall it” (p.203 of Barron Report). Holroyd told Justice Barron that Garvey was working for British intelligence.

    That was strongly suspected, and was the reason (undeclared) why the Irish government had sacked the most senior member of the Irish police years before Barron, declaring that it had “no confidence” in him.

    It is custom not to acknowledge British infiltration of institutions of the Irish state. That is the reason why another MI6 agent John Wyman/Douglas Smythe/Michael Teviott was not prosecuted by the Irish state despite being caught red-handed received documents from another very senior member of the Irish police, Patrick Crinion, who was then private secratary to the head of Special Branch and played an executive role in C3. Patrick Crinion, despite his treason, was not prosecuted either. Probably because senior members of the Irish political class who appointed British agents to executive roles within the institutions of the Irish state acted to protect them.

  • Allias

    Could it be the security services tend to treat touts and agents of influence differently, Agee in his book inside the company made a point of naming the latter.

  • Henry94

    Mickhall

    Looking at Irish republicanism as a whole today, it is difficult to recognise it as the same movement which in the late 70s and 1980s had so much vitality and intellectual curiosity.

    Something that is often overlooked is the effect of the fall of the Soviet Union on the the armed struggle. Even for those who would not have been pro-Moscow the existence of socialist states did provide a template for a post-colonial revolutionary society. The USSR also provided material and moral support for struggles throughout the world.

    The fall of the wall had to lead to new thinking among those who considered themselves revolutionaries and Irish revolutionaries has always (sometimes mistakenly) identified themselves with England’s enemies. With the main enemy taken of the board intellectually as well as militarily now roads had to be found.

    It was one of many factors but one often overlooked and explains to some extent while those still following the armed road come across as hopeless nihilists. They are working without an international revolutionary backdrop.

  • odoc87

    Gerry displays the attributes of any politician – his stance changes dependant on the mood of the people he represents. A politician who doesn’t represent the mood of the people will not keep office. A progressive approach to peace talks within the IRA led to a more progressive political stance. This was a case of community pressure on both sides to end large scale violence even if it was carried out under the murkiest of circumstances.

  • “Yet Adams told mourners at the graveside: “Anyone who does business with the British, the SDLP or the Free State establishment are fools as they’ve all sold out on the Irish people.””

    Adams is still cagey:

    ““While I represent a constituency from this State, I am from the North. Mayo is no longer under the control of the English crown. Where I come from, is – even in a conditional way under the dispensation that we have carved out.

    “The Taoiseach needs to remember that there are people in the North… who are watching every single comma, every single dot, in the parlance.””

    Pete, does he mean you?