Nelsons Swansong?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Last Monday saw the publication of a report/study on the Marching Bands of Northern Ireland.

Commissioned by the Minister for Culture, Nelson McCauseland and DCAL, the report “aims to promote understanding and encourage development of the largest section of the community arts sector”.

The report runs to 37 pages with 7 appendices.

The detailed specification for the Project states that it must address various areas and undertake a “quantitiative data gathering exercise (one month)”

Now i am no expert but a month to research what has been boldly called  the largest section of the community arts sector is nowhere near enough. Looking at the report and how the graphs and tables are laid out backs my feeling that it was rushed through before the assembly dissolves.

Appendix 4 of the report references Simon Schama, calling him “the highest paid performer on British Television” (!)  it goes on to quote him from his  History of Britain –

“for the British people the bonfire became the vocabulary that was the beacon of freedom and democracy

The report directly follows this quote  with what i can only see as a spurious comparison.

“For the Ulster Scots people on this island, the parading culture is their beacon of freedom and democracy and is their way of celebrating past deliverances and remembering those who have fallen in the defence of our land.”

I can’t but help think  that there is a hidden agenda behind this report,  namely to position this sector as a legitimate arts form which would then be used as a rationale to divert arts funding away from established (legitimate) arts practitioners and organisations.

The Bavarian Orange Order have of course made  their own comments and observations on the report.

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  • between the bridges

    andwatever, not only do you presume to define culture now you presume to define art, what do you do on the seventh day?

    nunoftheothersaboutme, as you would fit the bill (by your own description) why don’t you give it a go,(i can forward the notes if required)

  • Reader

    Nunofthe above: What are you basing that on re. music ? Any berk could learn to play the sash in their spare bedroom fairly competently without any tuition with a few hours practice.
    I was saying they wouldn’t, not that they couldn’t.
    andnowwhat: Up and down this land there are kids practicing in solitude…
    Great – now, how many violin prodigies and bedroom air guitarists are you talking about? Because the report refers to 30,000 current band members mostly in the 6 counties, and that must surely be a bit of a local blip in your figures.

  • BloodThunder

    Nunfromtheabove,

    “By being regressive and inward looking and exclusivist you mean?”

    Nobody complains about monasteries (to play on your username) being exclusivist, nobody complains about the Metropolitan Black Police Association being exclusivist, nobody complains about countless other groups and societies in the modern world being designed for one community. It seems it is only a problem if it is the Ulster Protestant doing it.

    “Like chasing girls, that kind of trouble? Sounds a lot like most normal fellows do when they’re 16. Great deal more becoming than sewing braid onto your flares and getting yourself whipped up into a biblical frenzy of tuneless dirge in the pissing rain in Ballymoney to me.”

    You know as well as I do that underage drinking isn’t as innocent as that. It has massive social implications like the standing about on street corners drunk etc. Bands offer young people something else to do with their time. In an era where young people can barely speak to each other because of Facebook, bands get kids out of their houses to actually get committed to something.

    “There’s no cause and effect there necessarily. Most of us manage to acquire a sensible degree of discipline without joining bands, thanks.”

    Certainly, but often bands can help kids who maybe don’t receive much discipline at home. With increasing single parenthood these days bands can often provide father or mother figures for young people who don’t have them.

    “So what ? But a tin whistle or a harmonica for two quid and teach yourself – what’s impressive?”

    Immature comment. Teaching oneself an instrument is just something that doesn’t happen. The impetus has to come from somewhere and in working class communities it is often the local band that provides this impetus.

    “Even if true, at least acknowledge that the only benefit from those bands is for one section of one part of the population. That’s not sharing. Blaring sectarian tunes as loudly as you can in places where people who don’t like those tunes can hear them and feel intimidated by the people who play them and their hangers on whether they like it or not, isn’t sharing. It’s force feeding people food they don’t like eating.”

    Name the places where the bands aren’t welcome. I doubt you’ll be able to think of anywhere other than Ardoyne and Rasharkin. Very few parades in Northern Ireland are contentious. A shared space is about tolerating things you aren’t keen on. The GAA is only for one section of the population and I am happy tolerating it.

    “That’s nonsensical, even on its face. Explain what contribution blood and thunder bands make to conflict resolution.”

    You are twisting my point. I said opposing bands was to oppose conflict resolution. You cannot hope to resolve a divided society by tramping a community into the ground.

    “Not to see or listen to, they aren’t – not for loads of people and not all of them catholics or nationalists. You just can’t bring yourself to say that prods and unionists who loathe orange bands are afraid to say so too loudly for fear of upsetting the lumpen element within B&T bands. I would go so far as to say that the people who find that kind of activity a source of substantial enjoyment are quite simply leading very empty, uncultured, unde-educated lives. But hey, knock yourself doing it where I can’t see you or hear you or have to pay towards the cost of you doing so.”

    Lovely snobbery there. For the record, I am graduating from Queen’s this year and have been in a blood & thunder band for five years now. Approximately one million people watch or take part in the Twelfth of July parades in Northern Ireland each year. Doesn’t suggest to me that many unionists “loathe” what we do.

    “When you say the latest……so the nasty, spiteful ones about Trevor King and the Famine being over rather than the nice old traditional sweet and melodic ones about biblical error and fenian blood ? Sweet. And as for style….well yeah, assuming you consider the Dick Emery’s character Clarence your key fashion reference point.”

    Music is music. It is what you perceive it to be is the problem. The Sash is a traditional Irish song yet most Irish nationalists consider it to be the ultimate evil. As someone who is involved in coming up with new musical settings, I am more worried about getting it to sound well than anything else.

    “Why do so many of them they look, sound and play as if they are then?”

    Again, your perception is no doubt influenced by a political outlook. Just because you think something does not make it the case.

    “People confident about their sense of themselves and in their identity generally don’t feel the need to swagger down street they don’t live in making as much noise as possible in a threatening manner, dressed up like Pan’s People and burning effigies of flags and people associated with alternative communities and identities (the ones you presumably want to share with ?). Can’t think of a single legitimate example of that anywhere which could reasonably be considered signs of a community at ease with itself, comfortable in its own skin, tolerant and outward-looking.”

    Why is it threatening? Countless rock bands, DJs, rappers, etc etc have made loud music for years and I doubt anybody would dare call these celebrities threatening. Blood & Thunder music is loud music, music has many different genres. The use of the word “swagger” is right out of the textbook anti-band book of cliches. Any eejit in our band who slips into the swagger is told to wise up and walk properly. I make no apology for bands being opposed to republicanism. It is an ideology which has torn our land apart and ruined the lives of both unionist and nationalist communities alike. Look towards the Twelfth of July, a happy family day out in which thousands are enjoying themselves. Far more confident than people bitterly sniping at bands from behind their keyboard.

    “And do please stop this “oh if only they knew how much fun it was, if only they’d understand” stupidity. We know what it’s about. There’s not much to misunderstand about it. There’s no mystery or point being missed. We can see it, we can hear it, every bloody summer of every bloody year. We don’t appear to have a choice. It’s boring, boorish, big-mouth bullyboy bullshit.”

    No, you don’t understand it. You have evidently made no effort to understand it. I can guarantee you did not even consider reading the report that this topic is about. You are obviously intolerant of a culture you don’t like. It’s also silly to overstate the amount of loyalist parades there are. Most towns host no more than a few in the entire year. Yet it would appear loyalists walking down a road isn’t acceptable to some people.

    Parading has been part of Irish culture for an extremely long side on both sides of the community. It should be seen as a positive thing that this unique cultural trait is encouraged.

  • Nunoftheabove

    “Nobody complains about monasteries (to play on your username) being exclusivist…. It seems it is only a problem if it is the Ulster Protestant doing it.

    – Self-pity is unbecoming. Complain about convent’s being exclusivist if you want, all religions are. One of the reasons they’re to be mistrusted and discouyaged. I think that they’re simply deluded. The difference however is that bunches of nuns won’t be coat-trailing down my street any time soon in a thunderous manner singing about being up to their knees in orange blood.

    “You know as well as I do that underage drinking isn’t as innocent as that.”

    – The vast majority of it is entirely harmless. And fun.

    “Bands offer young people something else to do with their time.”

    – I can’t conceive of how little I would have to do before joining a kick the pope band. Doing so frankly would be a dead giveaway that one didn’t, as they say, have a life.

    “bands get kids out of their houses to actually get committed to something”.

    – Committed to something worthless, certainly. Young people normally manage to get themselves out of the house and participate in worthwhile activities which enrich their lives and those of others.

    “Certainly, but often bands can help kids who maybe don’t receive much discipline at home”.

    – That’s among the thinnest excuse I’ve heard yet. Orangeism as proxy parents, a sense of belonging – it’s actually quite distasteful.

    “Teaching oneself an instrument is just something that doesn’t happen”.

    – Entirely wrong. It just does.

    “Name the places where the bands aren’t welcome. I doubt you’ll be able to think of anywhere other than Ardoyne and Rasharkin. Very few parades in Northern Ireland are contentious. A shared space is about tolerating things you aren’t keen on”

    – Again, you make the mistake of assuming that absence of protest is equivalent to tolerance and welcome, many protestants of my acquaintance find the OO entirely obnoxious and resent its unbelievably arrogant claim to represent the authentic voice and face and sound of unionist and/or protestant identity. It doesn’t and they won’t allow it to.

    “I said opposing bands was to oppose conflict resolution” –

    – You’ll need to explain that. So if I oppose B&T bands then of course there would only be conflict resulting if the B&T crew reacted angrily and/or violently. That sounds more like a threat to me than anything else. You want to resolve conflict by celebrating bigotry, promoting separateness, exaggerating artifical sectarian division ? Interesting choice of vehicle for resolving conflict. Lots of luck with that.

    “You cannot hope to resolve a divided society by tramping a community into the ground”.

    – There you go again with the community identification line – you can speak about bands as a community if you like, just don’t go implying that that means the same thing as the protestant or unionist community again as that isn’t acceptable. On the contrary, it’s offensive. And again, no more of the self-pity. Or, come to it, the exaggeration. No-one I know is talking about tramping anyone into the ground.

    “Lovely snobbery there. For the record, I am graduating from Queen’s this year and have been in a blood & thunder band for five years now. Approximately one million people watch or take part in the Twelfth of July parades in Northern Ireland each year. Doesn’t suggest to me that many unionists “loathe” what we do”

    – I already have done. They do. And you can be educated and credulous and/or sectarian at the same time.

    “Again, your perception is no doubt influenced by a political outlook. Just because you think something does not make it the case”.

    – Stop projecting a political outlook onto me – you don’t know me and seem all too keen to pigeon-hole my arguments. Perception in this case is based on direct experience – I have seen those bands and heard them, more times than I can possibly count. Again, you seem to be referring to a dimension to these bands that is either not there at all or which is invisible to those who have seen them. That’s false perception.

    “People confident about their sense of themselves and in their identity generally don’t feel the need to swagger down street they don’t live in making as much noise as possible in a threatening manner, dressed up like Pan’s People and burning effigies of flags and people associated with alternative communities and identities (the ones you presumably want to share with ?). Can’t think of a single legitimate example of that anywhere which could reasonably be considered signs of a community at ease with itself, comfortable in its own skin, tolerant and outward-looking.”

    “Why is it threatening?”

    – Because it’s territorial, it’s sectarian, its message is poisonous, its manner appalling, its insistence on its right to play its sectarian dross when and where it pleases and ‘get it right up ’em if they don’t like it, they’re only taigs’ is arrogant and provocative.

    “You have evidently made no effort to understand it. I can guarantee you did not even consider reading the report that this topic is about.”

    – I read it cover to cover as a matter of fact. It’s abysmal. I’m not even sure I’d be that happy about it if I was, as it were, you, much as the intention of it is clear enough.

    “You are obviously intolerant of a culture you don’t like”

    – I don’t like it, of course. I would be more tolerant of it if there was less of it, if it at least acknowledged that there those in both communities who loathe it, if it acknowledge that it was for most people not much more than a boorish expression of supremacist and that it impedes the progress of this society towards a genuinely shared future that’s about integration rather than well-managed separateness.

    “it would appear loyalists walking down a road isn’t acceptable to some people”.

    – They’re not walking down it, they’re marching down it. In formation. In uniform. Loudly. Abusivley. Most of the people who walk down my street appear to manage to do so fairly peacefully, do so without the intention of blaring their culture into my eardrums and do so without the need to close off the street when they do it. You taslked about teenaqgers with drink standing around street corners earlier as a problem. Multiply that by itself , add in an overtly sectarian dimension and you’re getting lukewarm.

    “Parading has been part of Irish culture for an extremely long side on both sides of the community. It should be seen as a positive thing that this unique cultural trait is encouraged”.

    – No, that’s precisely why it should be allowed to die. It’s regressive, Neanderthal and culturally vapid. If you want to march up a mountain or down to the Boyne where the rest of us don’t have to see or hear it, that’s fine – knock yourselves out. Just don’t go inviting me to – still less insisting that I must – esteem it as some form of authentic expression of one community’s identity and to accept it as innately a good thing worthy of respect and entitled to public money. It ain’t now and never has been.

  • west-east

    nunoftheabove
    you say you have seen many bands and heard much of the music they play but i would have said you have not been outside your comfort zone on this .

    is it not a bit arrogant and provocitive from you to think you know all the 30.000 bands people that they are at home at this very minute getting ready to annoy you
    the whole band community has a lot more going on we are not going out practieing buying new flutes drums pipe uniforms spending our own money just to annoy you so next time you are out and see a parade please its not about you

    the terroitorial argument is long gone bands return towns after parades to the way they were the night before

    any movement that is sectarin in todays Northern ireland would not be able to enjoy large support such as the bands

    i think we get to the real reason why you dont like bands you say if only their was less of them if only they would tell every one they were bad people if only they had not got those bright uniforms

    equality will and must be for bands, gaa, arts, sport
    if your tax pounds goes to buying a new drum for some band or a flute for another and my tax pounds goes to buying new gaa goalpost thats just something you and i will have to live with in the future of this country

  • Nunoftheabove

    west-east

    “you say you have seen many bands and heard much of the music they play but i would have said you have not been outside your comfort zone on this”

    – How do you know what/where my comfort zone is ? Don’t dare to presume to know what/where it is.

    “is it not a bit arrogant and provocitive from you to think you know all the 30.000 bands people that they are at home at this very minute getting ready to annoy you”

    – B&T bands are variations on a very narrow theme. I don’t know all of them personally (life’s too short) however would be genuinely highly surprised if their repertoire, musical accomplishment, ethos or attitude varied to any noteworthy extent. It’s a fairly limited musical form for a start but by all means argue to the contrary if you wish.

    “next time you are out and see a parade please its not about you”

    – That’s one of the things I don’t like about it. It’s not about me AT ALL. It’s mono-dimensional, sectarian, boring, reactionary – I don’t identify with it and it works hard to ensure that absolutely none of it identifies with me. It seeks to mock, exclude, provoke. The difference is, I have no choice other than to hear and see it. If I exercised my right to stand in my front garden and shout my vehement disagreement with them or to mount massive speakers and blast Primal Scream records across the street at maximum volume when they went past I’d be imperilling my personal safety and would be accused of being provocative and inciting public dosorder. I’d conceivably be arrested. Would the B&T band rush to my aid to express their solidarity at me exercising my civil and religious liberties, the ones they claim as the basis for their coat-trailing ? I’m in some doubt.

    “any movement that is sectarian in today’s Northern Ireland would not be able to enjoy large support such as the bands”

    – what’s your evidence for that statement ? When did sectarianism disappear from the stage ?

    “I think we get to the real reason why you dont like bands you say if only their was less of them if only they would tell every one they were bad people if only they had not got those bright uniforms”

    – That makes no grammatical sense to me, perhaps it does to you. I doubt it, though.

    “equality will and must be for bands, gaa, arts, sport
    if your tax pounds goes to buying a new drum for some band or a flute for another and my tax pounds goes to buying new gaa goalpost thats just something you and i will have to live with in the future of this country”

    – Why do I have to live with it ? I object. How do you define equality in this context and how would you propose to apply it ?

    Sport and B&T bands share no equivalence whatsoever. I don’t want the St Seamus From The Provo Bog Memorial Flute band hayseeds enjoying public money either, thanks. Rock ‘n’ Roll ain’t noise pollution but that shit most certainly is.

    I don’t particularly like rugby for example but have no problem with it getting a decent share of public funds on a comparable proportionate basis to other sports. I’d like cricket to get a bit more but that’s life. Likewise worthwhile genuinely artistic endeavours – I love literature and cinema, not nuts about all forms of opera, for example. But again, fair dues. Not B&T bands. That’s just poisonous garbage for very narrow minded, musically disinclined, artistically unaware boors and bores. It’s sinister rubbish, societally divisive and represents everything which this community needs to consign to its past if it ever genuinely wants to move on.

  • BloodThunder

    Nunoftheabove, it is clear you have made plenty of effort to judge bands but not engage with them. I recommend you read “Blood & Thunder” by Darach MacDonald, a fella from a nationalist background who took the time to get to know what goes on behind the scenes in a band.

    You are deluded about young people today if you think they all get themselves out of the house and engage in worthwhile activities. A lot simply spend their time on the web or playing Call of Duty Online. The growing rates of overweight children also shows that sport is no longer as an attractive option as it used to be.

    Why do you keep equating bands with Orangeism? The vast majority of bands are autonomous and their only contact with the Orange Order is on the Twelfth of July. You failed to explain why you think it is distasteful that people find friendship and mutual respect within bands.

    If your Protestant friends are so opposed to the Orange Order why are they not more vocal about it? Besides, as I said above the Order has little to do with this band report. It is natural that some Protestants will not like bands anyway, we live in a diverse society. Your friends hardly constitute a cross-section either.

    You evidently don’t know what conflict resolution is. It is about bringing a society out of its conflict phase, promoting a feeling of tolerance, encouraging diversity and respecting difference. Bands are a big part of Northern Ireland culture, to want them off the road is to completely alienate thousands upon thousands of people which isn’t democratic.

    I find the fact that you think flutes and drums are threatening is laughable. You only perceive them to be threatening as you have a preconceived idea as to what a band is. I watch AOH parades as well and I can safely say I have never felt threatened by music.

    I have no idea how to be a supremacist so I can’t answer that abstract point.

    Again, your last paragraph smacks of snobbery. Out of interest, do you know many people in bands?

  • Nunoftheabove

    BloodThunder

    “it is clear you have made plenty of effort to judge bands but not engage with them”

    – I can’t think of a single reason why anyone would want to ‘engage’ with them/ I couldn’t care less what goes on behind the scenes, it’s what goes on front of house that is at issue here.

    “You are deluded about young people today if you think they all get themselves out of the house and engage in worthwhile activities”.

    – I didn’t say they all did. Most do. And you’re now advocating B&T bands as a means of losing weight ?!

    “You failed to explain why you think it is distasteful that people find friendship and mutual respect within bands”.

    – I wasn’t aware of being invited to, largely because I didn’t say that to begin with.

    “If your Protestant friends are so opposed to the Orange Order why are they not more vocal about it?”

    – Fear, peer pressure mostly. Quite a number resent not feeling safe to say so for fear of being labelled a Lundy, a fenian-lover, and endangering their wellbeing and property as a consequence.

    “Your friends hardly constitute a cross-section either”

    – Why, because they don’t – or wouldn’t – include kick the pope band members ? Some of us are choosy about who we have as friends.

    “You evidently don’t know what conflict resolution is”

    – I am aware of it, I’d question what conflict it is you think B&T bands are remotely capable of bringing us out of as I suspect we’re at cross purposes on this point. To me they represent the society we should be moving away from and represent everything that’s bad about the society of yesterday that we should all be trying to jettison and replace with something worthwhile, moral and authentically cultural.

    – “I find the fact that you think flutes and drums are threatening is laughable”.

    – I didn’t say I did per se. In a certain context, the manner of the playing of certain kinds of bigoted music by large numbers of bigoted people in assembly can be. If you’re not quite bright enough to recognize the difference then third level education’s not what it used to be I’m afraid to say.

    – “You only perceive them to be threatening as you have a preconceived idea as to what a band is”.

    – I have a very clear view based on my direct experience with them. That’s noormally what I base my views of most things on.

    – “I have no idea how to be a supremacist so I can’t answer that abstract point”.

    – Again, if you feel it’s abstract then I’m not prepared to use more simple words to explain it to you. Perhaps you don’t understand what abstract means either. Perhaps your supremacism’s sub-conscious. I doubt it, though.

    “do you know many people in bands?”

    – I have known quite a number of them, yes, and know plenty yet. Undesirable types, louts, bigots and sectarians to varying degrees all.

  • between the bridges

    nunoftheothersaboutme.. ‘have known quite a number of them, yes, and know plenty yet. Undesirable types, louts, bigots and sectarians to varying degrees all’….takes one to know one old bean!

  • Nunoftheabove

    between the bridges

    Yawnnnnnn, yes I suppose you are, sweetie. I didn’t doubt it for a moment, to be fair.

  • west-east

    nunoftheabove
    how do you know what/where my comfort zone is dont dare to presume

    well sorry old boy the reason i do dare is you presume to know so much about blood and thunder it makes me think you have a yearning to belong to one you might have that love hate relationship going on

    the one thing you dont like around bands is its not about me

    news flash nun not everything is about you and if you have a feeling that you wish to stand in your front garden and protest go ahead you will find that not to many will worry that much about you these days they will be to worried about the music they are playing

    sports and bands share no equivilance whatsoever

    i just want public funding acsess for everyone gaa, bands, and the rest of sport and the arts.

    how many millons has been given to the gaa over the last 10 years

    you have said on funding that you dont mind at a push say some funding for the arts and in this sector the opera how many people does the opera touch and how many people do bands touch you can’t live in this wee world for ever that you just say bands are bad

    that makes no grammatical sense

    so sorry there have to bow to your grammatical sense on this as its nearly as good as your sense of the theatricals around marching bands

  • between the bridges

    nunoftheothersaboutme, its hanging out of ya old son but do keep it coming i’m lmao.

  • Nunoftheabove

    west-east

    “the reason i do dare is you presume to know so much about blood and thunder”

    – I know as much as I think there is substantially to know. You have not persuaded me that there’s anything more to it which isn’t already known to me.

    “news flash nun not everything is about you”

    – Well at least you acknowledge that you don’t care. I knew you were antagonistic to begin with, you just couldn’t quite bring yourself to say so. Until now. I knew that already. You are intolerant of anyone who isn’t one of you or who won’t agree with you. Your attitude is perfectly summed up on SoT’s POTD. That’s just a small part of what’s objectionable about you.

    “i just want public funding acsess for everyone gaa, bands, and the rest of sport and the arts”.

    – No doubt you do. I do not.

    “how many millons has been given to the gaa over the last 10 years “

    – I have no idea, I’m not a GAA member or active supporter.

    “how many people does the opera touch and how many people do bands touch you can’t live in this wee world for ever that you just say bands are bad”

    – I can if I want to and you can’t stop me. If it’s all about popularity then you want all available funding to go towards subsidising soap opera TV and amateur darts ?

    “so sorry there have to bow to your grammatical sense on this as its nearly as good as your sense of the theatricals around marching bands”

    – That doesn’t make any grammatical sense either I’m afraid. I don’t think that’s terribly likely to be a coincidence.

  • between the bridges

    nunoftheothersaboutme..’I know as much as I think there is substantially to know. You have not persuaded me that there’s anything more to it which isn’t already known to me’

    translation i know nothing but i think i know it all….lol

  • Nunoftheabove

    between the bridges

    You don’t appear to understand plain English let alone be in any position to translate/interpret it. If you have nothing valid to contribute – and it appears very much that that is the case – can I suggest that go play with your instrument for the remainder of the evening. I’m fairly certain you’re well practiced at that.

  • between the bridges

    nunoftheothersaboutme…lol do i hear the sound of tiny feet stamping? ah diddmums! and i quote from the keyboard warrior master jedi himself “You are intolerant of anyone who isn’t one of you or who won’t agree with you.”

  • lamhdearg

    scremadelica is 20 years old, i went to see the band 20 years ago in the ulster hall, it was god awful, i did not like it and never went to see them again, some people like them and i respect that. as for money, my view, no money for arts, no money for sport, if the arts and sports cant stand on there own by getting people to pay to see/hear them, then they should be allowed to fall, But if the lyric can get some of my tax to show plays that i will not see and other groups can get grants to fund their (but not my) music scene, then it only right that the bands who i enjoy immensely get a share, It is my and the thousands of others who also like the bands tax after all.

  • west-east

    nunoftheabove
    you say i know as much as i think is substanitially to know

    but the only thing i have learned from you is you dislike bands

    well at least you acknowledge that you don’t care

    but i do care or i would not be trying to change your mind or at least try to get you to see the point from a band side

    you are intolerent of anyone who isin’t one of you

    intolerance comes in many disguises many people won’t agree with you and your attitude to bands but you are entitled to them as long as you agree to disagree or that you can allow yourself just the outside chance that your thinking around bands might be outdated

    you have no idea how much the gaa have got over the last few years

    very few people never can find a gaa man to tell you and as you are not a supporter either you are no help its just that some bands are linking the amount that goes in to this group and how much goes into bands think its a point what do you think

    i can if i want to as regards bands being bad

    but is this not your being a bit antagonistic towards bands old chap maybe you cant quite bring your self to say so certainly your tolerance of bands seems to be running low

  • Zig70

    Bands are antagonistic to road users is the same way cyclists on the road are antagonistic. Always when you’re in a rush. Maybe we should get band lanes? We could change the bus lanes in the summer.

  • BloodThunder

    Spot on, lamhdearg. What people like nunoftheabove don’t seem to grasp is that there are tens of thousands of people in this small country who enjoy parading in bands and watching them. The massive numbers of people that attend the Twelfth is a testament to that – people are not going to see the lodges but the spectacle that bands create. Band profiles continue to rise and that is something people will have to come to terms with.

  • Nunoftheabove

    west-east

    “the only thing i have learned from you is you dislike bands”

    – Ok let me try to be more specific. When it comes to B&T bands (if there’s a meaningful distinction between B&T and KTP bands then you’ll need to educate me, I accept that much – it all looks and sounds the same to me). What I don’t like about these bands is:

    (i) I genuinely see zero musical or artistic merit in it at all (no more or less so than I find republican flute bands in that respect, and slightly resent some of the decent songs which the Provo fifers and flautists endeavour to appropriate and invariably ruin). I just think it’s an empty cultural experience to watch and to listen to. Boring, unengaging of the senses, unimaginative, samey, vacuous, reactionary. I don’t doubt that it is more meaningful if you’re in the band, but that’s not something that would interest me or which would even be open to me even if I was interested in it.

    (ii) There’s far too much of it for too much of the year. The summer’s too short and NI’s too small. Scale it down, stop spoiling the sunshine and polluting the long evebnings when we do get them. Is there anything more dispiriting when out for a walk or an ice cream in July with one’s partner and/or weans that the approaching sound of some hollering yahoos with drums and fifes ?

    (iii) I find the ethos unpleasant – a combination of demagogy, uber-loyalist sectarianism and biblical bollocks. You can call me snobbish if you like but the B&T bands represent themselves to many moderate citizens of all faiths and those of us with none as pure and simple chav culture with all of the charm, nuance and sensitivity of an Essex stag night. I’m afraid that you’re simply going to have to face into that perception. It drives a wedge through any possibility in the north of working class solidarity between people of different faiths and none. I deeply regret that and resent the role of orangeism and non-orange KTP/B&T bands in that.

    (iv) I am actually interested in what you say with regard to the swaggering etiquette however I would say that that’s contrary to every experience that I have had of B&T bands. The swagger is very obvious and frankly looks for all the world as innate to the whole thing and a necessary part of it. After all, why march at all ? Why not play in a field, in a hall – what’s marching about if it’s not all about owning the streets, asserting territorial rights, colonizing the public space, taking the message where it will very often be the least welcome – the flags, the hollering, the songs, the booziness, the slogans, the threat (which you unhelpfully choose to regard as laughable). Why is the – what you hold to be false – perception of B&T bands always everybody else’s fault ? You appear to regard everyone who doesn’t like KTP music on their streets as a bigot as opposed to having a perspective which you may in fact learn something from.

    You’re of course entitled to assert your own point of view but a little self-awareness wouldn’t go amiss either and you seem very reluctant to accept that this is even relevant.

    The unwillingness to engage with residents with a different point of view condemns bands to remain guilty until proven otherwise of unbelievable arrogance and outright anti-catholic bigotry. That’s a perception whether it’s true or not. The perception is very strong that these bands – or a lot of them – have the most fun and play with greatest intensity outside catholic churches and in or around catholic neighbourhoods. There is a definite feeling that if there was little annoyance to others that the whole thing would in effect have no purpose to some of the bigots in the bands. This rips small towns and neighbourhoods apart where re;lations the rests of the year can generally be fine. Again, you no doubt regard this as ludicrous but if it is so then you’ll have little bother assuring your non-unionist stakeholders of that, right ? All a huge misunderstanding ? A little humanity might just go a long way here, likewise a better future financially if you can get fellow taxpayers like myself not big on bands bought into the fact that you take their views seriously and give a shit about what they might think and how they might feel.

    “your thinking around bands might be outdated”

    – I’m not arrogant enough to deny that it might be however as yet you’ve not really indicated what it is about KTP bands which has changed that could persuade me that it is any different. They don’t look or sound any different to me than they did when I was a youngster.

    “some bands are linking the amount that goes in to this group and how much goes into bands think it’s a point what do you think”

    – Like I say I can see no equivalence between the two in terms of the sporting aspects of GAA which is the lion’s share of it. Peope who do see a direct equivalence between KTP bands and hurling and gaelic football are just worryingly stupid.

    I do think that the organizations themselves should be picking up the bulk of the tab for their hobbies, there is too much entitlement culture already in the north and people need to start paying their own way.

  • Kevin Barry

    Lamhdearg,

    You really missed out by not seeing Primal Scream again. I had the pleasure of seeing them at Reading in 2000 with Kevin Shields supporting them and they were immense.

    Regarding the issues of bands, as I’ve said on another thread I actually quite like them though I don’t like a huge amount of the other things that surround them.

    I suppose everyone has their reasons for going to see them or take part, some fairly innocent (which is the majority of people and always is for most activities) and some sinister (and pretending otherwise you are kidding yourself and making an arse of your argument).

    Nunoftheabove has made a number of fairly valid points regarding the matters surrounding the bands that I would agree with to a large extent. However, it is also clear that he doesn’t like the music.

  • Mark

    Maybe if the B&T bands did a few covers of Primal Scream …..we wanna get loaded !

  • Mac

    I Am Kurious Oranj by The Fall would be much better than Primal Scream, I can see hundreds, nay thousands of Gerrys and Michaels out grooving to New Big Prinz.

    Then again, anything would be better than the guff that both loyalist and republican bands currently subject the rest of us to.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Mac

    An excellent shout. One of the problems with B&T/KTP bands of course is that it’s generally such a limited application of a limited form; obvious, predictable, irony-free, devoid of anything interesting or thought-provoking. Humourless. Imagination-free. Now in a strange way seeing one of these bands attempt some of The Fall’s more roadworthy numbers could just prove something to see. Just Step Sideways may well sound terrific with a bit of swagger, Gross Chapel (British Grenadiers), a bit of Jawbone, New Puritan and, of course, Hey! Luciani. In limited doses, this might well be the way forward.

    BloodThunder / west-east, over to you to surprise and impress.

    “they built the road over dumb fellows like you
    they built the world as you know it
    all the systems you traverse
    they rode slipshod over all peasants like you
    they were curious orange
    they were curious oranj
    they disliked papists
    they rode
    and their horses loved them, and their
    horses loved them too
    they were curious oranj
    they freed the blacks too
    built a church in one day man-amish
    their clothes were cool
    turned into Napoleon over and didn’t know
    they made Hitler laugh in pain –
    they were curious oranj.
    They invented birth control
    they were ridiculed, invulnerable to –
    cool

    Part Two

    brrrp ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba
    they were curious orange
    they were curiou ornaj
    paved way for atom bomb
    made the jews go to school
    sent missionary girls to arab states
    and the sun-baked men did drool
    they were curious orange
    they were curious oranj
    pains in the arse man but they were
    inquirin
    brrp ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba
    they were: anti semitic

    anti artic

    anti gealic, you name it man

    they were against it
    they were the reformation spring,
    and everybody in the world
    turned reformation blue
    they were positively deranged,
    they were curious oranj
    stuyvesant smoking
    they were beyond Ooobenblief
    efficient -prima to a man
    they were curious orange”.

  • west-east

    nunoftheabove
    sorry you do not see any musical or art form with in the bands.much work goes on behind what you see to get a band on parade you know things like its music the way bands are run like small business .
    the way young people come together in partnership with no previous skill they can function move from town to town to compete and perform
    bands organise event liase with public bodys way past a level of any other group .

    you have made some comparison with republican bands and ulster marching bands not sure you can put the 2 in the same box ulster band have been around and are linked to a culture which is not the same as the republican bands
    it’s interesting you made this comparison as it may be the very place some band related imprint is coming from within you.

    with so many marching bands and the sector being a part of the culture of N.I. bands do wish to perform and compete ,band people wish to attened parades if you have 400 marching band parades and at a small count each had 1000 people at the parade thats 400,000 people who wish to go to these parades remember some of the parades are 10,000 at a single event so this may be on the lower end

    the ethos unpleasent but you may have an answer for us just might be you are a bit of a snob

    swagger….
    swagger how one presents one self to the world how a person handles a situation many time over the years i have had to dig deep into this as i have been spat on hit in the side of the face by coins and abused on parade by no means do i want to get into a slanging over this but some of what you may see is a defence from attack from those who wish to do these things to bands think this has now been changed to confidence

    you have said why not play in a field or hall we’ll the dam things are water loged most of the year so thats out but you have kind of missed the point these are marching bands they need the streets to be marching bands they need the streets so the people can have a place to enjoy the event and get close to bands.
    you may at this point say you do not wish to be close to bands but you must agree that many do.

    think your comments on booze slogans songs can go around everything from a schools cup final to the north west 200 and the gaa has its probs these issues are not only a single issue for bands but for everyone just look on the street corners .
    myself i will always try to prevent such behavouir

    engagement… many bands have and will engage with points of view but no agenda must be around such engagement you might if you are truthful look at those who play games around parades and see the issue of the real and the not so real anyone who can be helped by bands around an issue will generaly be so

    you have not ruled out that you may be wrong about bands and some of what you are baseing this is when you were a youngster well myself i thought we had warmer summers back in my childhood and the winters had more snow but sure enough this winter you would have thought this wee country was alaska

    you see no equivalance around sport gaa arts bands but many do even the very goverment department that all have to compete with is linked to sports, arts, gaa, bands

    perhaps if the sports arts had been picking up the tab on spending we would not have such an issue on this.
    if you give say in this case the gaa 60 millon to build a new ground a few might think from the band background or even a few from the soaps or the darts that this is a bit to far but not me i just wan’t 60 millon for the bands to

  • Nunoftheabove

    west-east

    “you have made some comparison with republican bands and ulster marching bands not sure you can put the 2 in the same box ulster band have been around and are linked to a culture which is not the same as the republican bands”

    – To all intents and purpose a lot of them look and sound the same; different colours, different tunes, the same tired old garbage. A lot of people I know would have pretty much the same eye-rolling reaction to seeing/hearing either of them.

    “the ethos unpleasent but you may have an answer for us just might be you are a bit of a snob”

    – Me being a snob is arguable; even if it’s proven, it doesn’t unmake B&T/KTP bands chavs I’m afraid.

    “some of what you may see is a defence from attack from those who wish to do these things to bands think this has now been changed to confidence”

    – Don’t march where you’re not wanted then; swagger your yourselves into ecstasy where you don’t have to worry about spittle or coinage coming at you or hatred, fear, aggression emanating from you towards others.

    “you have said why not play in a field or hall we’ll the dam things are water loged most of the year so thats out”

    – Halls get waterlogged ? Get some wellies.

    “ but you have kind of missed the point these are marching bands they need the streets to be marching bands”

    – You’re not explaining why they need/want to march other than to say that they do. Not much of an explanation.

    “think your comments on booze slogans songs can go around everything from a schools cup final to the north west 200”

    – I have never once felt threatened at the NW200; it’s a relaxed, pleasurable event, free of sectarianism or civil disorder or the threat of it. Visitors are welcomed, enjoy their ale, enjoy the races, they spend some money and they leave. No-one has a knot in their stomach when they see motor cycling enthusiasts making their way into town the way they do when they see/hear a KTP band on the horizon. Ain’t no equivalance.

    “myself i will always try to prevent such behavouir”

    – Admirable but the truth is that you can’t. It will happen again, bother will transpire, the stupid taxpayer will yet again have to pay for the policing and the damage. Rights have obligations attached to them – adhere to them or go away.

    “you see no equivalance around sport gaa arts bands but many do even the very goverment department that all have to compete with is linked to sports, arts, gaa, bands”

    – Just because they reside within the same Stormont department does not imply any equivalence.

    “if you give say in this case the gaa 60 million to build a new ground a few might think from the band background or even a few from the soaps or the darts that this is a bit to far but not me i just wan’t 60 millon for the bands to”

    – If they’re taxpayers they can say what they like. Saying “the taigs got this so we want that too” is a fairly pathetic basis upon which to argue for additional funding if you ask me.

    I will say that as a result of these exchanges and the awful report mentioned at the top of the thread I have today ordered a copy of Darach Macdonald’s book. It’ll be worth the £9 if it sheds light across any of what you have said and I’ll feed back accordingly having read it.

  • between the bridges

    nunoftheothersaboutme..your are of course entitled to hold your uninformed and incorrect opinions just remember, that is all it is, your opinion, on an Internet forum. so please drop the sweeping generalizations and stick to what you know…which of course as you have already admitted is nunthing…come back when you have read the book!

  • Nunoftheabove

    between the bridges

    That’s what it is, yes – an opinion. If you feel I’m generalizing then feel free to exchange on that basis. I can’t be sure you even have an opinion though to the extent that you don’t quite seem able to string a single articulate sentence together which contains an idea of your own. I should be surprised if you’ve read a book since you left school and feel fairly confident that you managed to work through very few while there unassisted. Perhaps you were too busy up the back of the class catching flies and fingering your piccolo.

  • between the bridges

    nunoftheothersaboutme…oh dear tiny feet time again, first rule of the key board jedi warrior…don’t like them know they have got to you old son! lmao.

    re topic excellent study…

  • Nunoftheabove

    “don’t like them know they have got to you ”

    Alas, not a langauge that I recognize I’m awfully sorry to say. A good deal less Star Wars and a good deal more George Eliot is the suggested way forward for you young man.

  • between the bridges

    nunoftehothwersaboutme.. lol, ach now diddmums so its only me spellink and gramma you find fault with? we can therefore assume you agree that you actually know nothing on the subject you pretend to be an expberk on!!!
    FYI i share a certain common thread with the following
    A

    Anthony Andrews – Actor

    Damon Albarn – Singer / Song writer

    Muhammad Ali – Former Boxer

    Fred Astaire – Actor

    B

    David Bailey – Photographer

    Louis Barnett- Chocolatier and Entrepreneur

    Orlando Bloom – Actor

    Marlon Brando – Actor

    Richard Branson – Entrepreneur

    Sarah Brightman – Actor and singer

    Alexander Graham Bell – Inventor

    Darcey Bussell – Ballet dancer

    Harry Belafonte – Actor / Singer

    George Burns – Entertainer

    C

    Cher – Singer

    Agatha Christie – Writer

    Margi Clarke – TV presenter and actor

    Steven J Connell – TV writer and author

    Chuck Close – Artist

    Brian Conley – Comedian and actor

    Tom Cruise – Actor

    D

    Roald Dahl – Author

    Leonardo da Vinci – Artist

    Patrick Dempsey – Actor

    Walt Disney – Film producer

    Kristian Digby – TV presenter

    E

    Thomas Edison – Inventor

    Albert Einstein – Scientist

    Bella Emberg – TV personality and comedian

    Ben Elton – Comedian

    Erin Pizzey- started first women’s refuge

    F

    Sophy Fisher – Journalist

    Lorna Fitzsimmons – MP

    David Fogel – Buying and Merchandising Director of Hamleys

    Esther Freud – Novelist

    Harrison Ford – Actor

    Michael Faraday – Chemist and Physicist

    Dustin Hoffman – Actor

    G

    Noel Gallagher – Singer

    AA Gill – Journalist

    Whoopi Goldberg – Actor

    Bill Gates – Microsoft Chairman

    Duncan Goodhew – Former Olympic Swimmer

    Antony Gormley – Sculptor

    Danny Glover – Actor

    Hamish Grant – Chief Executive of Axeon

    Nanci Griffith – Folk singer

    H

    Jerry Hall – Model

    Susan Hampshire – Actor

    Guy Hands – EMI Founder

    Woody Harrelson – Actor

    Lord Philip Harris – Entrepreneur and millionaire

    Salma Hayek – Actor

    Johnny Herbert – Formula One racing Driver

    Tommy Hilfiger – Designer

    Anthony Hopkins – Actor

    Jack Horner – Palaeontologist

    Bob Hoskins – Actor

    Louise Hunt – Actor

    Carol Harrison – Actor

    I

    John Irving – Author

    Eddie Izzard – Comedian

    J

    Steve Jobs – Founder of Apple

    Magic Johnson – Basketball player

    Bruce Jenner – Olympian

    K

    Felicity Kendall – Actor

    Nigel Kennedy – Violinist

    Jodie Kidd – Supermodel

    Keira Knightley – Actor

    L

    Lara Flynn Boyle- Actress

    Jay Leno – TV presenter

    Kenny Logan – Rugby Player

    Lynda La Plante – TV writer

    John Lennon – Musician

    Carl Lewis – Olympian

    Sandy Lyle – Golfer

    K

    Ingvar Kamprad – Founder of Ikea

    M

    Charles Rennie Mackintosh – Artist and designer

    Lord McAlpine

    Simon Menzies – Painter

    Mika – Singer

    Paul Merson – footballer

    Sarah Miles – Actor

    Jo Malone – Retailer

    John Madjeski – Businessman

    Kim Marsh – Actor

    James Martin – Chef

    O

    Dominic O’Brien – Word memory champion

    Jamie Oliver – Chef

    Ozzy Osbourne – Rock star

    P

    Theo Paphitis – Chairman/Chief Executive – Ryman and Partners

    Marco Pierre-White – Chef

    River Phoenix – Actor

    Pablo Picasso – Artist

    R

    Sir Steven Redgrave – Former Olympic rower

    Oliver Reed – Actor

    Beryl Reid – Actor

    Auguste Rodin – Sculptor

    Zara Reid – Businesswoman

    Guy Ritchie – Director

    Auguste Rodin – Sculptor

    Lord Richard Rogers – Architect

    Lee Ryan – Singer

    S

    Eric Shipton – Mountaineer and explorer

    Sir Jackie Stewart – Racing driver

    Peter Stringfellow – Businessman

    Matthew Sturgis – Journalist

    Steven Spielberg – Director

    Sylvester Stallone – Actor

    Rick Stein – Chef

    Imogen Stubbs – Actor

    Jo Self – Artist

    Joss Stone – Singer

    T

    Mackenzie Thorpe – Artist

    Anthea Turner – TV presenter

    Liv Tyler – Actor

    Billy Bob Thornton – Actor

    Brian Turner – Chef

    V

    Kevin Viner – Chef

    W

    Henry Winkler – Actor

    Ben Way – Entrepreneur

    Zelda West-Meads – Relationship counsellor

    Ruby Wax – TV presenter

    James Whale – Presenter

    Andy Warhol – Artist

    David Whiffen – Chef

    Marco Pierre White – chef

    Mark Wilkinson – Furniture Designer

    Toyah Wilcox – TV personality

    Lord Willis – Author

    Terence Woodgate – Furniture Designer

    Lindsay Wagnar – Actor

    Y

    William Butler Yeats – Poet

    Murray Lachlan Young – Poet

    Z

    Benjamin Zephaniah – Poet

    now if you where half as smart as you think, you would have figured it out by now! lol! but don’t let your ignorance stop you commenting on something you know nothing about it hasn’t hindered you so far….

  • Nunoftheabove

    It’s actually more the relentless infantile attention-seeking I have anything approaching a problem with, little fellow. Well, that and your proven inability to do other than write worthless shite, of course.

  • between the bridges

    i would like to know why my last comment is awaiting censorship?

  • between the bridges

    lets see mention irony and suggesting everyone can decide for themselves what level something is, will lead to the post being deleted? this post will self destruct in 30seconds… interesting set of standards on slugger.

    re topic its a most welcome study ( that is if this post remains of course! LOL)

  • Nunoftheabove

    Perhaps it’s being subject to significant rewriting rather than to censorship. Best all round, I feel.

    Mentioning irony and ironizing aren’t quite the same thing dude. I don’t suppose you knew that either.

  • between the bridges

    slugger.. Vinton Cerf said ‘The remarkable social impact and economic success of the Internet is in many ways directly attributable to the architectural characteristics that were part of its design. The Internet was designed with no gatekeepers over new content or services.’

    if your going to impose Internet censorship without explanation can i suggest relocating to china

    nunoftheotersaboutme, dude? from a literally genius like yourself? would that be irony or ironizing?

  • Nunoftheabove

    A literally genius ? I think we’ll need to send that one back for some rewriting too little buddy, don’t you ? 🙂

  • between the bridges

    nunothertheothersaboutme…whoosh! (as i knew it wood) have a wee think about it old son there are many ways to use words….

    slugger welcome to 1984

    good night and may your god go with you

  • parkantrim

    nunoftheabove
    ‘After all, why march at all ? Why not play in a field, in a hall – what’s marching about if it’s not all about owning the streets, asserting territorial rights, colonizing the public space, taking the message where it will very often be the least welcome – the flags, the hollering, the songs, the booziness, the slogans, the threat (which you unhelpfully choose to regard as laughable).’

    Would you be saying the same with regard to the many St Patricks Day parades around the world, the Pride parades, or the many other thousand marching events held in countries throughout the world? Or is it just your plain, uncompromising disdain for 1 single culture?

  • Nunoftheabove

    parkantrim

    Basically yes in principle. I don’t really ‘get’ parades per se if I’m honest but have been to quite a few here and there. They’re generally harmless where there’s no poison or perceived poison at the heart of it, no intent to assert and dominate territorially or perception thereof and when/where there’s a well thought through rationale for venues, routes etc which takes into account likely reactions whether there is any intention to offend or not.
    It’s the latter which at least some bands and/or loyal orders don’t seem willing to take on board, it seems to me. As with so many things in life, the impact is much more important and significant than the intention. Bands and/or the loyal orders don’t seem able to accept that those perceptions are other than republican propaganda, political point-scoring, MOPERY and and/or straightforwardly anti-protestant prejudice. There are elements of those but if they took the time to listen to residents views they’d discover that for themselves. That takes trust, openness and preparedness to listen as well as a determination to assert rights simply because you can. I am confident that there would for the most part be a very healthy reciprocation if that was to happen everywhere as has already happened in some local cases to decent effect.

    By the way I am not seeking to mock people for the aspuiration to march necessarily, I am genuinely curious as to why it’s the, if you like, performance vehicle of choice for bands.

  • parkantrim

    Nunoftheabove wrote
    ‘They’re generally harmless where there’s no poison or perceived poison at the heart of it, no intent to assert and dominate territorially or perception thereof and when/where there’s a well thought through rationale for venues, routes etc which takes into account likely reactions whether there is any intention to offend or not’.

    I must say that from my vast experience of bands and parades, i have rarely encountered this ‘poison’ you speak of.
    There are various reasons for holding parades around the country and i can absolutely guarantee you that none of them are there to create poison or to antagonise anyone.

    You speak of the ‘routes’, many of these routes have been used for decades and longer. Now im not one of those who believe, its a traditional route, has been for a hundred years so we’re not changing it! My point is, many of these routes that are now ‘contentious’ , have only become contentious in recent years due to population shifts. Therefore, bands, loyal orders or whatever, havent just decided to walk there to piss off theyre nationalist neighbours.
    Quite the contrary, bands do not want to walk through an area to be spat on or listen to poisonous abuse or be physically attacked. it is merely the case that there is rarely a suitably alternative route.
    On the point of ‘contentious’ marches, i firmly believe that the majority of the nationalist population dont give a hoot if a band walks by the shops at the bottom of their street. The contentious part comes when Sinn Fein and the like look to score political points, or when youths, bored from joyriding or robbing old ladies, want an excuse to to attack police or wreck their area for a few nights.

  • Nunoftheabove

    parkantrim

    “I must say that from my vast experience of bands and parades, i have rarely encountered this ‘poison’ you speak of”

    – With respect, you’re noticeably poorly placed to make such a call with anything approaching what I’d call objectivity.

    “There are various reasons for holding parades around the country”

    – Can you please list them ?

    “i can absolutely guarantee you that none of them are there to create poison or to antagonise anyone”.

    – Please refer to my point on the occasionally wide distinction between motivation/intent and effect/outcome.

    “My point is, many of these routes that are now ‘contentious’ , have only become contentious in recent years due to population shifts”.

    – So you admit that they are contentious. Why don’t the routes change to take account of the population shifts then ? Why is this overriden by the right to march wherever you like ?

    “it is merely the case that there is rarely a suitably alternative route”.

    – Like where ?

    “i firmly believe that the majority of the nationalist population dont give a hoot if a band walks by the shops at the bottom of their street”.

    – Where does this belief come from and what if anything feeds its firmness ? Also, do you care what protestants or unionists think either or do you simply assume that they’ll be positive/neutral too ? If so, why do you assume this ?

  • between the bridges

    With respect, you’re noticeably poorly placed to make such a call with anything approaching what I’d call objectivity……

  • Nunoftheabove

    between the bridges

    You’re projecting again. I have no pretence to objectivity when it comes to this issue (which, as I hope even you might understand doesn’t make me any form of nationalist necessarily) but I’m inviting you and others to challenge it by engaging with my questions and comments and I am attentping to do otherwise in return – not quite sure if you’re sufficiently au fait with the dialectic dynamic by the looks of it.

    Parkantrim is by any definition somewhat conflicted by virtue of the fact that he is, at a minimum, a supporter of B&T/KTP bands, a frequent attendee at their parades and for all we know a member of one or more of them. He is therefore well placed to comment on these matters from that perspective but less so from others. I am attempting to acquire an understanding of his perspective and to provide him with the value – or otherwise, as he/you see it – of my own. That’s largely what this site is about. You appear to have a problem understanding or adhering to the conventional rules of free exchange, content merely to interpret any questioning of your position – laughably – as some form of anti-protestant bigotry. That’s at best puerile and pathetic and at worst malevolent.

  • between the bridges

    You appear to have a problem understanding or adhering to the conventional rules of free exchange, content merely to interpret any questioning of your position – laughably – as some form of anti-cnrt bigotry. That’s at best puerile and pathetic and at worst malevolent.

  • Nunoftheabove

    between the bridges

    A pragmatic attempt to reconcile all three qualities there – puerility, pathos and malevolence. Well played.

  • between the bridges

    nunoftherothersaboutme…you do try to dress up your predisposed ability to be offended by hiding behind what you presume others will find to be intelligent debate! i will leave to all to judge the unbiased intelligent debate of the keyboard warrior that use’s ‘kick the pope’ as a term to describe a form of culture promoted mainly by youth membership….

    As for the Pope, I am too old to be frightened by his shadow, and am quite sure his shadow or Substance will do less harm to the liberties of my country than will a party, who seek to acquire political power by exciting religious bigotry in the minds of their duped followers.
    Ezra Cornell

  • Nunoftheabove

    between the bridges

    If Blood & Thunder-dom and Kick The Pope-dom are entirely different band animals then let me know who I should be apologizing to. It’s all the same-sounding, same-looking cretinous boorish hayseed nasty chav noise pollution to me kid.

    I may conceivably agree with you on aspects of the latter point as a matter of fact although I’m unpersuaded that you could digest the sense in which I could or would agree, let alone understand it.

    The implication that the only opposition to the cherubic youth members to which you refer is artificial in nature and/or only occurs as a consequence of pot-stirring and political opportunism by nothing-better-to-do-these-days-provos and unemployable so-called dissident MOPEs is bogus. Likewise, the notion that offence is something only experienced by dupes is, I’m afraid, entirely false. I’m sure they appreciate being allowed to live in ‘your’ country though. Quite the privelege for ‘them’.

    By the sound of it I have a much more substantial beef with Herr Ratzinger than you do. If that confuses you then, well, I’m unsurprised.

  • between the bridges

    nunotheothersabout.. i have visited the hilter youth members city of residence (sorry if that confuses you) but i felt no need to introduce him to my size ten! your own words say so much more about your views than i ever could……

  • Nunoftheabove

    between the bridges

    Oh I’m confident that that’s certainly true, yes. Trouble is though, you can’t understand them little buddy.

  • between the bridges

    nunoftheothersaboutme….Bigotry and judgment are the height of insecurity..mo chara An dtuigeann tú?

  • Nunoftheabove

    between the bridges

    A serial refusal to engage, answer comments and to offer nothing but projected sectarianism and a cheap, base form of parochialism articulated in a remarkably infantile manner would most certainly constitute a fairly deep sense of insecurity, yes. Neat slice of Jungian of self-analysis comrade so, again, well played.

    …..tá súil agam go bhfuil do thuiscint na hÉireann níos fearr ná sin de do Béarla cosúil go bhfuil cara

  • between the bridges

    nunoftheothersaboutme..A serial refusal to engage, answer comments and to offer nothing but projected sectarianism and a cheap, base form of parochialism articulated in a remarkably infantile manner would most certainly constitute a fairly deep sense of insecurity, yes. Neat slice of Jungian of self-analysis comrade so, again,your own words say more about you than i ever can..

    Ní thuigim, Abair go mall é, ma’s é do thoil é……

  • between the bridges

    ah Tuigim! Níor mhaith liom!

  • Nunoftheabove

    Ní ba mhaith liom a shíl sé gur féidir. Ní féidir liom labhairt le focal ar an cac cheachtar cé dhéanamh liom ciall níos mó sa Ghaeilge ná mar a dhéanann tú i mBéarla agus nach bhfuil á rá mórán…..gcuimhne duit nach bhfuil tú ag rá go bhfuil ciall i bhfad i dteanga ar bith go dtuigeann i

  • between the bridges

    Is cuma liom!! cuireadh siar forbairtí nuatheicneolaíochta na tíre roinnt blianta dá dheasca. Táimid fós ag iarraidh teacht aniar ón tubaiste sin, agus bheimis níos fearr de gan rud ar bith a dhíol seachas beart mar sin a dhéanamh in athuair. Is féidir talamh slán a dhéanamh de go mbeidh an teicneolaíocht is nua-aimseartha in úsáid ag lucht gnó agus ag polaiteoirí na tíre chun a gcuid spriocanna a chur i gcrích tá sé tábhachtach go mbeadh na buanna céanna ag an lucht forásach agus timpeallachta, chun dúshlán mar is cóir a thabhairt do na beartais a théann thar fóir. Is iomaí rud ba mheasa a d’fhéadfaí a dhéanamh ná cás ár gcomharsan a ghlacadh mar ábhar machnaimh agus mar inspreagadh.

    ps Conas a dearfá ‘bite me’ as Gaeilge?

  • Nunoftheabove

    Tarlaíonn sé dom cé nach féidir liom a cheangal fiú ar aon eolas ar na hÉireann ar an eolas go bhfuil tú ag caint cac loc na muice mhuice gan fiú dul go dtí an trioblóid a aistriú é.

    “Scaoil amach do bhoibili´n”, as they say in Macosquin.

  • between the bridges

    a Mhàighdeann nun, tha eagal orm dhuine! dhuine! air do shocair! gu sealladh orm droch chainnt gu sealladh saelbh oirnn! òrain luadhaidh rèidh ri Rìgh nan Dùl pìobaire Urnaigh an Tighearna.

    rach ‘na lasair gaothach toll-tòine

  • I was pondering today, that one of the most difficult languages in the world to learn would be Ulster Scots,

    The reason being with so many words in its vocabulary sounding and in most cases spelt exactly the same as the word sounds spelt and means, in English, it must be quite impossible to know when you are actually speaking Ulster Scots or English