Leave the blue bags at home

The Loyal Orders and various band organisations have united in a public call for people not to drink alcohol and respect bye-laws against public drinking at this year’s Twelfth celebration to ensure a positive family atmosphere.

  • 8 Ace

    “… public call for people not to drink alcohol and respect bye-laws against public drinking at this year’s Twelfth celebration.”

    Hear, hear! Sure they can leave the Bucky-guzzling for the night before while attending paramilitary displays and ritual Tricolour-burning.

  • kensei

    More significantly, the Scottish Grand Master is calling for the anti-Catholicism to be left behind:

    http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=929152007

  • Glensman

    Expect to see attendance halved this year if this is enforced!

  • Pounder

    There is more chance of the ghost of King Billy turning up on a white charget to lead the parade than the Blue Bag Brigade have of leaving their carryout behind.

    As for the Orange Order in scotland wanting to drop the anti-catholicism a nice gesture but impossible given the nature of the Orange Orders most basic rules. Members can’t date catholics, or even be the god parent of a catholic friends child. Part of their monthly ritual is to say a prayer “To save catholics from false doctrine and make them see the true way”. If that isn’t fundamantally sectarian I don’t know what is.

  • Cruimh

    Glensman – the streets would be nearly as empty of loyalists as Slugger is empty of shinners at the moment 😉

  • Dr Strangelove

    Has Drew Nelson been with the prawn sandwich brigade every 12th if he thinks that it is only now that the Devil’s buttermilk now starting to impact the fringes of the days frivolity ?

    More nonsense from the Orders about creating a day out for ALL the people of NI etc…. Geobbels would be proud.

    I would like to hear Drew expressing sentiments like those of the Scottish grand master.

  • “Leave the blue bags at home”

    There’s more chance of Elvis making a comeback in The Spring and Airbrake…

  • parcifal

    what we’re witnessing is growing self-esteem in the two communities, as now the peace is bedding down, both sides feel better about themselves.

    No longer are SF berated on every TV/Radio Show, neither is Paisley and his ilk barracked non-stop for being bigots.
    So the transformation continues apace, and this is welcome news; you could call it Prod outreach, however the sceptisism here is normal too.

    None of this applies to ATW where peacemakers are seen as Evil. The exact revolting words from David Vance yesterday.
    Is his condition treatable, thats what I wonder?

  • páid

    very negative stuff lads.

    We ask them to show a bit of leadership and give the masses a bit of a steer……

  • whiterocky bilbao

    leave the blue bags at home and get the LIDL ones instead, better class of drinker

  • snakebrain

    Or is this a weak-willed attempt to pre-empt the inevitable criticism that will come their way around the 13th July?

    “Well, you see, we did ask our real supporters not to drink thousands of bottles of WKD blue on the side of the road, and vomit all over the streets, and drunkenly attack attack anyone who isn’t from their street, or wearing a sash, so clearly our real supporters have nothing to do with the mess that’s left, and you’ll have to look elsewhere for those responsible. Nothing to do with us at all really.”

    They should also be made to pay for the clean-up after they leave roads and streets lookin like landfill sites.

  • When Orange Pipe Bands are marching past playing songs with lyrics such as “We are up to our necks in Fenian Blood, Surrender or you’ll die”, does it really matter whether or not some low-life bystanders have a blue bag or not?

    If they want to tackle sectarianism in a genuine way, maybe they should address the disgraceful sectarian tunes played by the majority of “bands” in their parades…

  • Dev

    “to ensure a positive family atmosphere.”

    Because you want to get the whole family involved when you are burning effigy of the Pope, Granny can douse it in petrol, the kids can set it alight, wonderful! What utter nonsense, the only way the OO will make itself relevant and acceptable in the 21st century is to disappear.

  • Cruimh

    Will the May disaster mean that the shinners will have to change their plans this year and play the Orange card ?

  • snakebrain

    macswiney

    I worked in one of a handful of Catholic-owned pubs in Ballymena for 6 years. Every year, approaching the twelth there would be parades up the street, which had the three most prominent Catholic pubs in the town at intervals along its length. We would close the door in advance and the bands would march up the street playing, as you say, “disgraceful sectarian tunes”, and outside the door of each pub they would stop, the flutes would stop playing, and the drums would continue to beat out the rhythm. Missiles would rain against the front of the building. It was blood-curdling stuff, all carried out under the nose of the local police.

    That was between 5 and 10 years ago, so not exactly ancient history either.

    I should say though that there were honourable exceptions. I remember watching on one occasion from an upstairs window, as one of the Orange marshalls placed himself across our front door, with his mace held across his body and, at considerable personal risk, fended off a crowd, in their sashes, who were intent on kicking in the door.

    Awful times, but what you say about control of bands and how they do what they do is important.

  • Briso

    Good, sensible move. I can honestly say I’ve never seen two sober grown men fighting. Drink is the biggest threat to all the local agreements made across the marching season.

  • GPJ

    What about the PSNI enforcing the by laws about drinking. Quite content in grabbing a student or two on the Golden Mile for drinking a can of beer, 364 days in the year, the forces of law and order always turn a blind eye to the thousands of drunks coat trailing the Orange Order marches on the 12th. As they turn a blind eye to the activities of sectarian nonesense associated with the 11th night.
    Surely the average 11th night activities break every equality law passed in the six counties?

  • lib2016

    With the recognition that compromise is necessary for stable government North and South things are moving fast. The Greens are part of government in the South and there is no reason to believe that parties representing the Orange cannot equally take part in the future.

    Of course all sides will have to change and modernise but that’s a fact of life. Remember that all politicans fail in the end.

    Traditional unionism is in flux right down to it’s roots in the OO. Sinn Fein led the way twenty years ago when it endorsed democratic methods in order to change the status quo. It’s taken a while for the wiser heads in the ‘Love Ulster’ brigade to realise that threats of violence won’t work anymore. Good to see them posting here.

  • Cruimh

    “Sinn Fein led the way twenty years ago when it endorsed democratic methods in order to change the status quo.”

    I must have missed the SF condemnations of IRA violence after 1987

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    God and Gargle = a good day out for the OO on ‘the Twalfth’.
    According to the good Protestant ethos it is only papist fenians that takes a sup of porter agus uisce bheatha?
    Nasc fola eadrainn!

    When are folk gonna finally ditch all the trappings of religious mumbo jumbo, include the Catholic church too. Even the regalia is so meaningless today and looks so fucking stupid! Sometimes, it’s well worth ditching traditions that are really milestones around our neck.

  • lib2016

    “I must have missed the SF condemnations of IRA violence after 1987”

    Sorry Cruimh, but look on the bright side. No sackcloth and ashes for Sinn Fein then means no sackcloth and ashes for the unionists now that they are beginning to come in from the cold. Surely the emergence of two governments in Ireland, both composed of people and parties diametrically opposed to each other shows that pragmatism rules.

    Whatever happens next will come peacefully and democratically. The unionist parties have condemned republicans for their attempt at ‘unionist outreach’. Let’s see how long it takes for them to attempt to emulate it.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Has Drew Nelson been with the prawn sandwich brigade every 12th if he thinks that it is only now that the Devil’s buttermilk now starting to impact the fringes of the days frivolity ?”

    ..Er.. no, but he said it’s been getting worse in recent years. Anyone disagree?

    “More nonsense from the Orders about creating a day out for ALL the people of NI etc…. Geobbels would be proud.”

    Godwin would be proud of you too. What do you suggest should happen on the 12th then? Are you seriously saying that people want a drunken punchup in preference to a carnival?

    “I would like to hear Drew expressing sentiments like those of the Scottish grand master.”

    He did. Yesterday. On “The biggest balloon in the country’s biggest show in the country”-quote-“We are not an anti-catholic organisation, we are pro-Protestant”

    “When Orange Pipe Bands are marching past playing songs with lyrics such as “We are up to our necks in Fenian Blood, Surrender or you’ll die”, does it really matter whether or not some low-life bystanders have a blue bag or not?”

    Time to actually take off the blinkers and see what’s there, not what you think is there. Pipe bands don’t march, they generally shuffle. They play traditional Scots and Irish melodies to a high standard, and the tune to which you refer is not part of their repertoire

    “If they want to tackle sectarianism in a genuine way, maybe they should address the disgraceful sectarian tunes played by the majority of “bands” in their parades”

    Well no doubt we are by definition sectarian, in that we are an organisation for Protestants, but then there’s nothing wrong with a proper appreciation of your own culture as opposed to mere drunken bigotry. Doubtless some see nothing wrong with the odd chorus of “Sean South of Garryowen” at chucking out time on Paddy’s Day ,or a singsong at a Wolfe Tones “concert” which would never float my boat, but I don’t presume to seek the eradication of such dubious outlets of culture.

    You see what’s really scaring the MOPEists here is that when the Orange is responding to reasonable complaints about alcohol misuse at parades etc they’ll soon run out of theings to complain about-except for the fact that we’re different. You can’t hack the idea that there are forty shades of green- one of which is..er..Orange. You have to have one shade only, and if there are blue bags galore on 17th March or all-Ireland final day you don’t give a damn. You’re more like us than you care to admit- as even Jude Collins admitted yesterday. But that attacks the fundamental premise of all MOPEry.

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    ‘Well no doubt we are by definition sectarian, in that we are an organisation for Protestants,…..’

    Darth,
    Why do believe in such stuff, because it was passed down to you?

    Have you never doubted your faith?

    Do you fully believe in the bible and the gospels?

    Do you really believe it is the word of god?

    Incredible stuff!

  • BogExile

    Pounder (surely Punter?)’..To save catholics from false doctrine and make them see the true way”

    Just replace ‘Catholics’ with ‘protestants’ and you have the title of the first chapter of ‘Republicanism for Dummies.’

    But:

    THOSE ORANGE ORDER BEHAVIOUR RULES IN FULL:

    1. The only acceptable mixer in any devils buttermilk is traditional Fanta.

    2. Mixers are for fenians. No mixers allowed.

    3. Coats to be worn except at interface area when coats to be removed and trailed.

    4. Director for Republican engagement to be appointed to increase catholic participation on 11th night.

    5. Director of Republican engagement to be burnt on bonfire* to close proceedings. * or effigy where s/he is not personally present.

    6. Each lodge to ensure that regulation red rag and bull are carried at all times.

    7. All Kick the Pope Bands to be rebranded as kinetic papal engagement outreach folk groups.

    8. Urination in gardens this year in odd numbered houses only.

    9. Defecation in gardens restricted to lodge members under 6 and over 80.

    10. Swords only to be drawn when all other peaceful means of getting to the burger van have been exhausted.

    11. In any case, all swords to be beaten into ploughshares.

    12. All fenians to be killed with ploughshares.

    ENDS

  • kensei

    No comment on the Grand Master of Scotland’s comments, darth?

  • whatabout

    “As for the Orange Order in scotland wanting to drop the anti-catholicism a nice gesture but impossible given the nature of the Orange Orders most basic rules. Members can’t date catholics, or even be the god parent of a catholic friends child.

    Part of their monthly ritual is to say a prayer “To save catholics from false doctrine and make them see the true way”. If that isn’t fundamantally sectarian I don’t know what is.”

    —–

    I do see where you are coming from, but that said it did catch my eye that the OO in Scotland seem to be changing and questioning these “most basic rules” so perhaps there may be hope of evolution in the organisation as a whole.

    If I might indulge in a bit of whataboutery on the second point, the Latin Mass which the current Pope is keen on reintroducing has some important differences to the contemporary Catholic Mass – among the most controversial of which is a prayer to save Jews from condemnation and make them see the true way. (The movement to reintroduce the Latin Mass is not just about a fondness for Latin, seems to be a lot of dodgy reasons for it too)

    As a non-prod who isn’t at all opposed to Orange culture when it is respectfully promoted, I do hope the OO can move on with the times and leave the blue bags and the bigotry of an element of their supporters behind them.

  • Frank Sinistra

    whatabout,

    I doubt that prayer will survive, it’s part of one mass a year on Good Friday and will probably be ditched in line with Vatican II thinking if restrictions on the Tridentine Mass are removed. A single line in one Mass a year can’t really be used to claim some sinister force behind the Latin Mass movement.

    It’s all mumbo-jumbo to me anyhow.

  • the Emerald Pimpernel

    Darth Rumsfeld:
    Time to actually take off the blinkers and see what’s there, not what you think is there. Pipe bands don’t march, they generally shuffle. They play traditional Scots and Irish melodies to a high standard, and the tune to which you refer is not part of their repertoire

    LOL you are the first person on any board anywhere that I have seen that has ever made that claim

    It would be laughable except I think you actually believe it

  • lib2016

    Emerald,

    Darth is a regular here. He has seen the OO and it’s links to extreme loyalism exposed regularly. The point is that his need to deny them even though they have been shown to exist.

    The OO is like the rest of unionism trying to come to terms with the disappearance of the British Empire and the possible breakup of the UK.

    Denial of what is demonstrably true will not help his community play the part they should in building a common future. In Belfast especially the OO is in crisis and cannot attract respectable members of society.

    The UUP which was a creature of the OO crashed and burned up. The Orange Order has at least a few members who don’t want their organisation to do likewise.

  • willis

    EP

    He’s probably right. Pipe (as in bagpipe) bands are all pretty respectable, mainly because of the greater technical skill involved in piping and the better cultural links between Scottish, Northumbrian and Irish pipers.

  • macaedha

    Go raibh mhaith agat bogexile

  • kensei

    Whoops, missed this bit:

    “He did. Yesterday. On “The biggest balloon in the country’s biggest show in the country”-quote-“We are not an anti-catholic organisation, we are pro-Protestant””

    Are they prepared to change their rules and oaths to reflect that as suggested in Scotland?

  • dub

    I do feel aorry for the loyal orders sometimes… there is no doubt that whatever they do some will always just hate them anyway.

    what they need to do for their own self respect imo is to look at say their parade in rossnowlagh in donegal which is dignified family day out requires a couple of guards to escort them (even they are probably not necessary)… oo people will say ahh but in donegal the locals are lovely to us and so we are are nice to them etc.. different place etc..

    the point is that the oo behaves with dignity in donegal.. imagine what they would do if a load of hooligans went over from belfast with a load of drink on them and started urinating in people’s gardens etc… they would go apeshit apolgise and be genuinely mortified…

    in the very different atmosphere of the siex counties they need to start showing the same dignity and high standards, adopt a code of conduct… no glorification of paramilitarism, no sectarian cat calling..

    they dont do this becasue they are afraid of being seen to be soft on their enemies… they need to realise that for their own self worth they should be doing these things anyway.

    that way they will survive and maybe even prosper. a bit like the ni football team which has put its own act in order to a significant extent…

    what is required is leadership…

  • lib2016

    dub,

    You put my point in a much more diplomatic way than I can. Hopefully you will be listened to. Conflict isn’t the way to go.

  • Dub,

    The Sandhouse did some steady trade last year…
    There is nothing unique about the Rossnowla parade, the only difference is the Shinners havn’t as of yet stirred up tension.

    And I really wonder how many people here claiming the OO to be a cover for ‘loyalist thugs’ have actually been to a 12th?

  • Dr Stangelove

    How many of the orangemen who march at Rossnowlagh are from NI ?

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    Fermanagh Young Unionist….I really wonder how many OO members claiming the Catholic Church to be a cover for ‘the Whore of Babylon’ have actually been to a Catholic Mass. Probably afraid your very life and soul maybe condemned to eternal hell……Death through boredom morelike Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

  • Dr Strangelove

    I am presuming all the Southern OO members who march at Rossnowlagh are happy with their Irish identity.

    As it is a nationality division we have in the North were religion is a badge of identity, the abscense of this division in the South is surely the biggest factor for it being a peaceful parade in Donegal.

  • How many of the orangemen who march at Rossnowlagh are from NI ?

    At a guess I would say well over half. The Irish Orangemen then travel across the border the following week to the actual 12th. Rossnowla is like the unoffical ‘Irish 12th’.

    Gregory,
    Firstly I don’t know many people claiming the Church to be a cover for the whore of babylon, but I do know many many Orangemen who have been in a Catholic Chapel. But now heres an idea, instead of you engaging in whataboutery, tell me, how many of the people hearing attacking the 12th have actually been to one?

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    But now heres an idea, instead of you engaging in whataboutery, tell me, how many of the people hearing attacking the 12th have actually been to one?

    You would like me to say none, none what so ever.

    But in fact a straw poll would say an estimation of about 85% or more of the people here, which is why they are so well up in knowing such matters!

  • Gregory, so as you claim, when will them 85% start disputing the rather laughable statement made by macswiney?

    When Orange Pipe Bands are marching past playing songs with lyrics such as “We are up to our necks in Fenian Blood, Surrender or you’ll die”, does it really matter whether or not some low-life bystanders have a blue bag or not?
    If they want to tackle sectarianism in a genuine way, maybe they should address the disgraceful sectarian tunes played by the majority of “bands” in their parades…

  • dub

    fermanagh young unionist,

    u have rather made my point for me in that you say the shinners have not discovered rossnowlagh yet.. in life the way to go forward is to take responsibility for your own behaviour. you are right that in donegal there is no organised opposition to the parade in fact quite the opposite. so you guys are nice. when there is bit of tension you guys aren’t. but you just blame the tension. do the gandhi thing.. define yourselves by your own behaviour. is it shinners who make a lot of the retinue in orange parades in ni drunk, urinate in people’s gardens, stop outside catholic chapels and pubs and beat the drums extra loudly, allow lodge banners with uvf and uda terrorists on them, shout obscenities at passers by.. no of course it is not. the people who do these things are responsible for their own behaviour. i repeat that if these things happened in donegal the oo would be genuinely mortified and would be besides themselves as to how they could make amends and rightly so… however the same things happen in the north and they do not have this reaction.. why not?? the way to grow up is to be responsible for your own behaviour not be like the child in the playground who when scolded by the teacher says “but what about what the others done?”. this sydrome is not of course confined to the oo or the unionist community and please believe me i am not attacking the oo here or the unionist community .. i am pointing out a situation where the oo behaves with self responsibiliy and dignity (surely protestant virtues) and prospers and a situation where in many (though by no means all) they do not and they do not prosper.. and i am making the connection. what sinn fein and residents groups do is up to them.. what the oo do is up to them.. that is what i am saying. the mutual condemnation thing in the north is a great way for people to avoid looking at their own behaviour.

    btw i am intrigued that you call the donegal orangemen irish orangemen (which of course they are), surely you and all northern orangemen are also irish orangemen??

    btw i have been to apprentice boys parades in derry and seen positives and negatives… what has been shown in derry is positive leadership for their own people by the apprentice boys. what struck me most about the parades i saw to be brutally honest was a kind of sadness and sullenness… and i for one would love to see that change.

    i accept rossknowlagh is not unique but i think it is most certainly the happiest loyal order parade.. there are a lot of differences in ni between different areas and rural and urban.. fermanagh is certainly not belfast or portadown for example

    regards

    dub

  • lib2016

    Fermanagh Young Unionist,

    Unfortunately far too many of us have been exposed to the ‘tunes’ and behaviour of the Orange Order. Links to photographs and even videos of that behaviour are on the WWW and have been linked to many times.

    Personally I welcome the recognition by many Orangemen that they have a problem and would prefer to believe that rehabilitation begins with the admission that there is a problem.

    There are plenty of republican louts but that doesn’t invalidate republicanism. If unionism believes that it has a case then surely they too must try to deal with their lunatic fringe?

  • rtj

    Like very other group of people, whether that be defined by nationality, religion, football team, or whatever, the OO contians a large spectrum of opinion. And like every other group, this spectrum of opinion is changing as society changes, and is represented to the the ‘non-members’ by the words of the leaders.

    Although saying ‘we should not drink alcohol, we should stop abusing catholics’ does mean people will not drink alcohol and abuse catholics, it is at least a step in the right direction. If the OO can promote more liberal (notice this is all relative) people to leadership (as SF/IRA managed to do over the last 15 years) then maybe, just maybe, we can get somewhere.

    There is grey area where celebration of one’s culture overlaps with abusing other cultures, but, with careful leadership, we should be able to minimise this. Anyone who thinks they can remove this grey area by removing the actual celebration (i.e. the end of the OO) are, by definition, arguing aginst their own liberal thinking.

  • dub

    Fermanagh young unionist,

    Actually while i remember 2 memories from last year’s parade in derry,

    1. in the morning parade (local mostly and by the more civilised) a very moving rendition was played of “Its a long way to Tipperary..” I spoke to a few bystanders as i hummed along and not one of them seemed to know the song and they also (mostly young people) seemed genuinely shocked at what i think they thought was a papist republican song as they heard me say Tipperary.

    2. I had a very interesting conversation with an orangeman from fermanagh/tyrone area who asked me what i was doing at the parade (i was photographing it for a project and also genuinely interested in it) as he said if he were a nationalist he would not go a million miles near it. I pointed out to him when i heard another familiar air that it was the same air as is sung to the republican ballad “James Connolly” (a great crowd was gathered… that one). he seemed genuinely horrified. we had a nice chat though. he also said about himself and the village he come from with a friend next to him nodding that “of course we are Irish too but we are different and of cours we are British too”. I liked him for his honesty and then we had a chat about Dublin with which he was very well acquainted. He also said he hated unionist attacking the gaa, he had a lot of respect for them and he said he just wanted the same respect for the loyal orders. he then actually said i should come to his village some time and see the local parade.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “No comment on the Grand Master of Scotland’s comments, darth?

    Posted by kensei on Jun 15, 2007 @ 02:02 PM”

    Sigh
    Do I have to shoot down every juvenile debating point?
    I have no problem with the comments. They seem perfectly sensible to me.

    “Darth,
    Why do believe in such stuff, because it was passed down to you?”

    Nope, through prolonged and prayerful study. As it happens, I find many of the beliefs of the Church of Ireland to be problematical, though their core standards are generally sound. I respect all traditions, particularly my own, but where a tradition conflicts with the Bible it has to lose.

    “Have you never doubted your faith?”
    Nope

    “Do you fully believe in the bible and the gospels?”
    Yup

    “Do you really believe it is the word of god?”
    Yup

    “Incredible stuff!”
    Nope-though naturally if you don’t believe it must appear so.

  • darth rumsfeld

    rtj
    A mature and sensible contribution.Thankyou

  • caulfield

    Any step forward by the OO is positive. I went (for the first time in many years) to a twelfth parade last summer – in Tyrone. I was struck by significant changes. There were hardly any “Kick the Pope” bands and far fewer traditional Loyalist marching tunes. The commones tune played was “The Star of the County Down”. Bizarrely they also had Bob the builder and Sponge Bob there as well – they weren’t marching!

  • páid

    I’ve noticed this cooling of sectarian tensions as well.

    Cliftonville matches resemble a Michael Flatley eurovision party, jungle refugees in celtic park wondering where did it all go right.

    Adams and McGuiness swapping tips on drives to mid-off. Shamefull!

    I’m fed up of it! C’mon you orange bastards. Have you gone soft? Charlie’s a poofter, you know, his mam and Michael Fagan, heh heh……

  • Wilde Rover

    “This type of activity and associated unruly behaviour has been seen for years in city centres every Friday and Saturday night.”

    It is curious to note that the positive effects of ecstasy in conflict resolution in NI have never been fully acknowledged.

    I have seen many surreal sights north of the border, but the winner by a country mile was watching two big men with conflicting paramilitary tattoos in the Met in Armagh gurning at each other in surprise as they realized that the tune coming on was the other guy’s favourite tune as well.

    If whiskey had been the substance of choice then the inner beast in everyone would have triumphed over goodwill.

    Instead of blue bags, why not white pills? The drummers could lay down some funky Drum N Bass beats when they pass contentious areas, and if you give ecstasy to the other side as well they could produce some bodhrans and make a night of it.

  • Dub,

    there is no organised opposition to the parade in fact quite the opposite. so you guys are nice. when there is bit of tension you guys aren’t.

    That’s just a load of crap if you ask me; whiterock and Drumcree are the obvious examples in favour of your claim, but what about the dozens of smaller of church parades which the Shinner’s are trying to end? You don’t see the OO waving their ceremonial swords around there.

    Getting drunk has just become one of them features of a 12th. Its called having fun. And believe you me, you haven’t seen a drunk Orangeman til you’ve been to Rossnowlagh, that’s what I meant earlier by saying the Sandhouse does a steady trade!

    is it shinners who make a lot of the retinue in orange parades in ni drunk, urinate in people’s gardens, stop outside catholic chapels and pubs and beat the drums extra loudly, allow lodge banners with uvf and uda terrorists on them, shout obscenities at passers by.. no of course it is not

    Mefinks you have quite a creative view of what the majority of 12ths are like, count the number or Orange Order banners in existence and then count the number with reference to UVF/UDA/bullshit and then you will see how small that problem actually is. Granted if you are a regular attendee of parades on the Shankill or Portadown you may encounter quite a few but that’s because of where they are coming from. That’s a problem that needs solved in that area, so don’t sweep the OO with the same brush. You go to most parades in Tyrone, Londonderry, Antrim, Fermanagh and you will not see a single shameful banner. Even then it is an isolated problem in Down and Armagh.

    i repeat that if these things happened in donegal the oo would be genuinely mortified and would be besides themselves as to how they could make amends and rightly so…

    And I repeat that those things don’t happen in Donegal because the bands come from the border Counties, ie no paramilitary nonsense. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether the shiners are in the area or not.

    btw i am intrigued that you call the donegal orangemen irish orangemen (which of course they are), surely you and all northern orangemen are also irish orangemen??

    I thought 1921 pretty much answered that question. Obviously we are not.

    Lib2016,

    Unfortunately far too many of us have been exposed to the ‘tunes’ and behaviour of the Orange Order

    Quite a sweeping statement don’t ya think?

    Personally I welcome the recognition by many Orangemen that they have a problem and would prefer to believe that rehabilitation begins with the admission that there is a problem

    Must of missed that one…