Theresa May’s speech: Is the UK planning to use Ireland as a hostage in negotiations with the 27?

To be honest I haven’t wanted to add to the wall to wall commentary on a Brexit deal, the outline of which is even now barely visible. Today, it became a little more clear. Mrs May wants access to the Single Market via a bespoke deal yet to be negotiated.

Looks like a very big reset within the unifying frame of the UK state. She made references to a report she’s already had from the Scottish Government, and is expecting another Carwyn Jones’ Labour administration.

Nothing will be forthcoming in Northern Ireland. Even in the event of there not having been a collapse, the power-sharing arrangement slapped together a half Remain/half Brexity administration would have had all the coherence of the oracle at Delphi.

However, for all this grand talk, Mrs May currently has no official means for consulting with Remain majority Northern Ireland:

I have been determined from the start that the devolved administrations should be fully engaged in this process.

That is why the government has set up a Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations, so ministers from each of the UK’s devolved administrations can contribute to the process of planning for our departure from the European Union.

We have already received a paper from the Scottish government, and look forward to receiving a paper from the Welsh government shortly. Both papers will be considered as part of this important process. We won’t agree on everything, but I look forward to working with the administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to deliver a Brexit that works for the whole of the United Kingdom.

Part of that will mean working very carefully to ensure that – as powers are repatriated from Brussels back to Britain – the right powers are returned to Westminster, and the right powers are passed to the devolved administrations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

And on Ireland, and the UK’s only land border with the EU/Single Market:

We cannot forget that, as we leave, the United Kingdom will share a land border with the EU, and maintaining that Common Travel Area with the Republic of Ireland will be an important priority for the UK in the talks ahead. There has been a Common Travel Area between the UK and the Republic of Ireland for many years.

Indeed, it was formed before either of our 2 countries were members of the European Union. And the family ties and bonds of affection that unite our 2 countries mean that there will always be a special relationship between us.

So we will work to deliver a practical solution that allows the maintenance of the Common Travel Area with the Republic, while protecting the integrity of the United Kingdom’s immigration system.

Nobody wants to return to the borders of the past, so we will make it a priority to deliver a practical solution as soon as we can.

The interesting bit is that her pitch is to take the UK (including NI) out of the Single Market and then to renegotiate their way into some maximalist form of access to it. She doesn’t want the Norway or Swiss model, she wants one of her own.

For good measure, she also says she’s quite prepared to default to the WTO’s Most Favoured Nation status, if the EU don’t give her what she’s looking for. Despite her protestations to the contrary, that won’t be good for the UK, but it won’t be particularly flavoursome for the EU either.

It’s not likely to be kind to Ireland either. As hinted at this interview with former NI Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers on the Daily Politics today:

All in all, except for the dangerously unobservant there was not much new in the speech. Reassuring perhaps that Ireland came so high in the list of priorities. But there’s little sign of any serious direct input from the Civil Service.

The rhetoric is oddly similar to that of some more implausible positions of Scottish nationalists in the past:

It has her Eurosceptics and the UKIP purring, the Labour party confused (again), Tim Farron gaining profile as the anti-everything she’s doing party leader, Nicola Sturgeon spitting nails, and Tory wets nailed to the floor.

Of course, it’s a big rosy picture in which all things are possible. But as General Helmuth Von Molke once actually said, “no operation extends with any certainty beyond the first encounter with the main body of the enemy.”

Northern Ireland’s lack of a voice may not last that long (they could be back at it as early as May). In any case, people ought to reflect on the fact that concern about the hardening of the border is a cross-community concern, not just a reflection of the old divisions.

And it’s a real, ie economic concern, reflected in the trade figures:

A prolonged absence would be a dereliction of democratic duty to the people of Northern Ireland. As Micheal Martin noted this evening the in Dail:

…the decision to cause an election at this moment has dramatically increased the risk of Northern Ireland, and by extension the rest of this island, suffering due to the Brexit decisions being taken now.

The decision to reject any further discussions or to find a means of at least delaying the collapse of the Executive until after this critical period is deeply damaging. The absence of an Assembly or Executive for an extended period delays rather than brings forward any inquiry into the heating scheme or the introduction of any measure to reduce its cost.

It also means that there is no Budget for 2017 and the urgently needed plan for tackling a crisis in A&E departments has been shelved.

 

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  • MainlandUlsterman

    my “betters”? I was under the impression we were equals.

  • John Devane

    Did their best to offer a compromise!!! Are you serious? Your EU rose tinted glasses are permanently fixed on. The EU didn’t take David Cameron’s negotiations seriously. They offered him jack s**t. Hence they practically guaranteed Brexit.

    The rest of your one sided propaganda reads like a Bob Geldof rant. I’m all right jack. The EU is and always was a corporate stitch up. It’s responsible for unchecked unlimited migration which far from improves lives. Unchecked EU migration is not sustainable. Increased competition especially at entry level employment reduces wage rates. It’s good for employers not so good for the rest of us.

  • Kevin Breslin

    My one sided propaganda, could you please tell me what was there in the interest of the other 27 nations to appease the UK with a better deal?

    Seriously are the UK going to take any responsibility for their failure to negotiate a better deal for themselves here?

  • John Devane

    You make out Leave was a tissue of lies yet Remoaners were playing it straight. You know that is far from the truth. The whole uk Establishment IMF EU etc plus motor mouth celebs like Geldof were aligned against Brexit. HM govt scaremongering, their nonsense leaflet plus a myriad of tactics including spoon feeding Obama with his back of the queue insult. None of it worked. The EU is the busted flush .

  • Kevin Breslin

    Play the game: you are negotiating with the EU explain the compromise you’d propose and what’s in it for them?

    In my opinion I think the UK were offering the rest of the EU “thin gruel”.

    If it was only meant to be a sham negotiation, and there was nothing the UK would settle for there is really nothing any EU nation including the Republic of Ireland would be able to offer a UK pursuing a path of being L’Enfant Terrible.

    I am genuinely curious as to what kind of European Union you would envision being a member of if you felt you had the ability to reform it.

    Let’s see if you have a pragmatic or affirmative side in this situation.

    There’s very little to be gained from being paranoid, contrarian or intolerant.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Right, we’re just going to ignore the three weeks or so of post-Referendum omnishambles happening in Westminster, particularly with 3 leadership changes, one of which required another leadership change 18 days later?

    I mean we’re just going to pretend that all didn’t happen?

  • John Devane

    For me personally and for many that voted Brexit there was never ever a deal. I despise the EU superstate with its superstate ambitions.

    However, if the EU had taken David Cameron more seriously and offered him more substantial reforms on freedom of movement, benefits, child support, bail out exclusion, less EU regulations etc he may have persuaded more suckers to vote Remain.

    The EU never took him seriously probably because he already gave away his bottom line before negotiations began. He was a committed Remainer anyway

    The EU’s Achilles heal is its commitment to political union. A trade block has its merits but IMHO the transformation from the EEC to the EU was a self inflicted move too far

  • Sir Rantsalot

    Why would we pretend the Westminster change of leadership didn’t happen? I don’t get where you picked that up? It actually went according to the existing procedures, no one went round saying that Westminster government was about to collapse. In NI, every time there is a change, everyone is shrieking about ‘bringing the institutions down’ and other such hysteria. The process of change should be clearly mapped out. If it is not clear, then the reason is NI politicians incompetence in not filling in all the details of each step. That is shoddy workmanship.

  • Kevin Breslin

    The snoberry that seems to assert those on the “British mainland” are not beyond hysteria themselves.

    Clearly they are every bit as capable of hysteria after the events of that referendum campaign.

    It’s laughable you are trying to say there’s been composure and stoicism when clearly many British government and opposition politicans have had public outbursts since.

    Tell me which Irish or Northern Irish politican in the last year physically fought with another parliamentary colleague until one was hospitalised?

    This is just ignoring the facts.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Brexit may not have been voted for on that basis but in the forseeable future it will be tailored for the appeasement of that fringe Tory right wing movement whether that 17 million like it or not.

  • John Devane

    It’s your funeral. Way too dangerous and IMHO not feasible as a democratically accountable union.

  • Kevin Breslin

    And I think you some it up quite nicely, you expected good faith from the 27 other nations as a reward for your bad faith.

    I doubt it would be any different if it were 27 bilateral deals instead.

    There is no reason at all for any nation to do a better deal where the only reward for a better deal is contempt for the trade liberties already given.

    At the end of the day it is not only about contempt for the EU, but the demand to be rewarded for the contempt showed towards the 27 other nationalities and their sovereignty too.

    If the UK wants to impose inequalities to EU nationals while recieving the benefits of EU membership in other EU nations then it’s really got a false sence of its own importance.

    It’s sickening some Irish actually go along with this belief that Britons and perhaps themselves should have unrecipricated privleges and special treatment in countries that are not their own like some new imperial age.

    The continentials aren’t going to be doormats and a scapegoat to bigoted prejudices and paranoias from the North Sea islands from Bratish Brits and Indignant Irish.

    If people in the UK and Ireland want to be isolationist they should not complain about other nations respecting their will and ignoring them.

    No country in the world are going to be nice to entitled and abusive British or Irish nationalists, and they won’t even waste their time arguing if they expect them to give into unrealistic demands based on a supremacist mentality.

  • John Devane

    Again a very simplistic analysis of the Brexit vote. 17.4 million voters are not the fringe of anything. They are the majority. Your self serving skewed analysis ignores the millions of Labour voters that ticked the box for Brexit.

    To make out it was simply a Tory conspiracy is way wide of the mark. UKIP were pressuring the coalition Govt. There was a feeling of being cheated the way the Treaty of Lisbon was rail roaded through parliament without the promised referendum. But you sit in your ivory tower blaming the Tories. Way more complicated than that

  • John Devane

    Supremacist mentality? How about rationally and sanely disagreeing fundamentally with the direction of travel the EU is taking toward an unwanted and ill advised superstate.

    It’s far from being supremacist. The UK electorate voted to return political control to itself. The mutual benefit of free trade between the UK and EU is a solid base from which to negotiate.

    Far from being isolationist; in fact the opposite is the case. The freedom to make trade deals outside the EU is a global objective.

    I suspect the only contempt on display here is your own.

  • Kevin Breslin

    You mean treaties involving countries accountable to their democracy rather than mine.

    Seriously, I would wager Eurosceptics would call other nations undemocratic for not agreeing to the Eurosceptic terms unilaterally.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Those who talk about the EU being undemocratic seem to have unempathic contempt for the democratic choices of other member states beside their own.

  • John Devane

    Contempt for democracies that choose the united states of Europe? Not contempt just disagreement. If others choose the ever closer political and fiscal union route so be it. Like I said it’s their funeral. I personally do not see it as a successful model for accountable democratic government particularly given the EU’s track record to date

  • Kevin Breslin

    Look if a significant number of the Brits didn’t think they were so much better than those in the Continent, then explain why so many felt that UK citizens should have freedom of movement in the EU, but others from the EU should not have freedom of movement in the UK.

    To me that’s a supremacist mentality, and it’s a supremacist mentality the EU won’t even bother to entertain.

    Likewise when it comes to trade, the U.K. can either take advantage of its place in a common market with the agreements to reduce trade barriers and the global deals that market has achieved, or it can leave the common market and do things on the terms of a sole third nation. They cannot do both.

    The free trade demands are superficial since they want the EU nations to give the U.K. Free trade, but they want no free trade for the EU in the UK. Again due to chauvinistic jingoistic supremacism and fear from foreign competition.

    The U.K. and Irish Supremacists think they can pick and choose, having all the benefits of the common market while none of the responsibilities, then yes they are supremacists.

    If they think they can do their own trade deals, rather than negotiate to agree a trade agreement with a second partner state, then they are supremacists.

    Only imperialists and irredentists can unilaterally do a trade deal with another nation that is not their own exclusively and unilaterally on their own terms.

    People were sold Brexit even on the supremacist mantra that the continentals needed them more than the Brits needed the continentals, if they really believe that they should quit NATO too.

    What really makes things worse is quite often these supremacists are dead weights on their economy, they are full of opinions but make next to no positive contribution to their national economy that their claims of helping their nation’s independence can only be taken with a massive pile of salt.

    If they weren’t dead weights they would stop complaining about the Continentals and actually improve their nation’s prospects themselves. Instead they have too much time on their hands.

    If they are so easily upset at that bursts the bubble that the Brits aren’t “God’s chosen race”, whether it’s skilled foreigners taking jobs while they are unemployed, whether it’s milking a tragedy of another country to portray a perceived victimhood, or thinking that a trade deal means take, take, take and giving nothing away, the reality is they are selfish self-centred supremacists who rely on the capitulation of others.

  • Sir Rantsalot

    We’re off on a tangent here 🙂
    Got to leave it for now. Cheerio !

  • Kevin Breslin

    I would say contempt for treaties that these nations spent years negotiating myself. I would say contempt for the Irish people who voted for the Fiscal Compact and the Eurozone governments who collaborated to ensure the stability of the currency. I would say even contempt for the Greeks for on the one hand offering faux sympathy for their plight, while being extremely uncompassionate when it comes to the Greeks dealing with refugees.

    The EU agreed the UK wouldn’t contribute to any bailouts before the negotiations even began, the Dublin protocols protect both our islands from continental refugees, and the EU was agreeing to a more liberal nationalistic model.

    The greatest irony is that the EU has never been more nation centric, but it’s the nationalism that is contributing to the political and economic problems. That doesn’t mean those nations including the UK and Ireland are not the causes of their own problems or are stronger without friends.

  • John Devane

    The contempt is inside your head. Your case against the UK’s position on rejecting ever closer EU political union doesn’t stand up to even casual scrutiny. The UK never joined the banjaxed systemically flawed Euro currency union. Nor did it join the disastrous Schengen Agreement. Ireland opted out of Schengen too.

    The EU has created a rod for its own back. Its Schengen Agreement caused the national discontent on the continent because it abjectly failed to deal with the migration crisis.

    Friends are encouraged to trade but not to take control. The EU over reached itself with its political ambitions. Now it’s facing one self inflicted crisis after another.

  • Kevin Breslin

    I can read your contempt quite well, it’s clearly a thing you are persistent in expressing. That’s fine, but it’s got nothing attractive to offer, just an inflated sence of uncompromising self righteousness.

    You are right that the UK choose not to join the Euro and opted out of Schengen but it opted into the EU, and it opted in to the treaties that bound it to the EU and bad faith towards those treaties will endure bad faith by those other signaturies who see this as a typical British attempt to get all the benefits of the EU such as the Common Market, and none of the responsibilities or compromises.

    That is typical of the Eurosceptic contempt for the other nations in the European Union.

    Similarly “Free Trade” on UK’s exclusive terms is not exactly “free trade” it’s just unilateral British protectionist trade which at the heart of things comes down to taking control of other’s business.

    Can you imagine trading with a country who’s external image of itself is that your nations and their partners are entirely responsible for all their problems?

    The U.K. appears as a selfish judgemental hypocrite with all the diplomatic skills of a spoilt angry child, more and more each day.

  • John Devane

    Your prejudiced contempt for the UK drips through everything you say. It’s fascinating but totally irrelevant. Personally the UK and Ireland were wise to stay detached from the Schengen Agreement and the UK was even wiser to avoid the Euro forever. It’s a complete disaster and the UK has no obligation whatsoever to bailout member states that joined the Eurozone.

    Your opinions are judgemental and smack of pure hatred never mind hypocrisy. Try dealing with the points raised in opposition to your EU love fest.

    Can’t you see the hypocrisy of Irish freedom when it’s so easily bought for EU chains? The EU is a superstate behemoth that will try to crush all members that oppose it. That’s been its modus operandi to date. Now it’s facing a major economy that refuses to share its political objective. There should be an amicable parting of the ways because free trade is all the UK wanted in the first place. If it turns out otherwise then the true nature of the EU will be further exposed

  • Kevin Breslin

    I have a contempt for British supremacism, as I would for Irish supremacism. Bilaterals have to come from accepting reciprocity. I am a firm believer in that principle extending throughout the EU and don’t particularly align myself with Brits and Irish who think otherwise.

    Let’s talk Schegen and migration in focus … In the Balkans there are several non-Schegen nations who control their own borders … Montenegro, Macedonia, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia-Herzegovina and even Bulgaria which is in the EU is no Schegen … That did very little to stop refugees going from the Greek Schegen border to the Slovenian one. Turkey is non-Schengen and it has more Syrian refugees than the whole of the E.U put together.

    Now due to the Dublin regulations refugees need to apply in the first EU country they enter, which kind of sucks for Greece, but in very Northernly and Westernly nations like the UK and Ireland it’s fantastic so long as a supermassive volcano doesn’t go off in Iceland.

    So why the Greeks have to deal with the humanitarian crisis, us Irish and Brits have to suffer having to read about it and reading scary headlines in newspapers in countries miles away from us telling that these things will happen here unless there’s Brexit and Irexit.

    Seriously think of all those Westerners who have to curl up in a foetal position or frantically rub their head about their country possibly having to take in someone fleeing a war.

    Think of all their anxiety and need for carthartic outbursts on Twitter and blogs!

    I really don’t have any sympathy for pathetic people who’s sence of political victimhood is based on disasters happening to other people who they show little solidarity for anyway.

    It’s that attitude to refugees that spurned a lot of anti-Irish sentiment around the world.

    Not being in Schegen doesn’t stop problematic migration, and not having the Euro doesn’t stop bankruptcy or bailouts … I mean look at Ukraine.

    Pretty much the whole of Europe suffered a recession due to exposure to American banks and not having the Euro didn’t stop the likes of Iceland and Ukraine going cap in hand to both the IMF and EU states looking for bailouts.

    So no I don’t think it’s hypocritical to support Irish freedom and European diversity and consensus, I think they both enhance one another.

    I don’t think flag waving and jingoism protects a nation, I think that when it gets aggressive and domineering it turns to an impulse to start wars and other hostilities.

    If people think isolationism protects nationalism and networks are both a threat and a liability, I would suggest with all due respect that they eat a flag sandwich.

  • Kevin Breslin

    To paraphrase yourself “Can you not go through a change without making a drama over it?”

  • John Devane

    In principle a very empathetic position to hold. Jeremy Corbyn espouses the same opinion regarding refugees and economic migrants. An open borders society.

    Yours is also a form.of nationalism that you say you despise in others. Yours is infact a far more dangerous variety because it demands not asks for unquestioning loyalty. Your body politic is the ever expanding EU superstate with its own flag and its insidious insipid anthem ‘Ode to Joy’ where we all jog along in mind numbing happiness opening doors to all and sundry.

    The problems only arise when you have to pay for it. That’s when the music stops, the ugly lights turn on and in front of us is the horrific reality…..The EU.

  • Kevin Breslin

    I’ve never asked for unquestioning loyalty, and if the EU was the horrific reality of stopping the questioning of its authority it would’ve banned all Eurosceptics from its European Parliament.

    So no, that’s a very false accusation … I’m probably the only one in the SDLP who has supported not only Remain, but the holding of the referendum of itself … because I am a republican and social democrat … and your protrayal is at odds with things that I have said many times on this forum.

    I think being vigalent about the EU is no substitute for vigilance for the actions of politicians at home, those who have continuously used the European Union as a scapegoat for their own domestic policy failings.

    I’m a proud European, not just identifying with the 27 other nations but the continent as a whole, I’m proud of the network of good relations that have lasted decades and the souring of relations based on false promises and a Dunning-Kruger overestimation of the nation’s honest labour effort and abilities in isolation.

    After the UK leaves the EU, even if the Republic of Ireland leaves the EU, or there’s no EU, I will still offer the dissent about the positive contribution collaborations can bring.

    It could really be the case that the UK doesn’t get any clear tangible benefits from Brexit, and the only real clear sign it’s happened at all on these islands come from the unintended consequences of an English driven decision upon an island that didn’t want it.

    Whatever the British or Irish antipathy is to the European Union, what is clear is that it will largely come tied to apathetic hand-waves about the border region bar the usual Orange and Green stuff.

    I’m not going to go around thanking people for stopping some conspiracy theory in their head, I will call out their narcissism for being a useless autistic self-indulgence that never made anyone’s life even the slightest bit better.

    And sadly they will struggle to find evidence to prove me wrong.

  • John Devane

    False accusation? EU nationalism is a fact. Listen to Remoaners like Timothy Farron.
    There’s a difference between being a proud European to being a committed EU superstate Europhile; the former is a reasonable identity whereas the latter is more questionable. Brexit was and is a rejection of a supranational EU and a rejection of its ECJ in favour of something more accountable
    Vigilance of national elected representatives is also why Brexit triumphed. The expenses scandal only served to illustrate how self serving many politicians are and the need to keep them under scrutiny. The EU and its army of bureaucrats and MEP’s on extravagant expenses is too remote and by definition too unaccountable. The UK electorate rejected the whole corrupt edifice and not before time. To paint this rejection as simply the recidivism of English isolationism misses the point

  • Kevin Breslin

    Wow, you are angry that I am being vigalant about those who campaigned for Brexit. If I have to be called a “Remoaner” all my life because I scrutinise and criticise the empty platitudes driving the Leave campaign.

    Without the pressure of people like me, Nigel Farage would not have been on Television with a guilty conscious saying there isn’t £350 million that will go the the NHS (or indeed anything) after the UK’s departure from the EU.

    Instead the crooks would’ve camouflaged their deceptions behind an “ignorance is bliss” nationalism that views any crook that waves a flag as a patriot.

    Look I get that those who wanted to leave have all these convictions about the EU being some terrible dystopia and everything getting better again just from the carthartic act of Leaving.

    It’s really a false sense of carthartic reasoning, based on vain glories and poor psychology. It is my conviction that these little stories about the EU have no substance in reality, it will only lead to a painful self-actualisation people talk a good talk, but they walk when it comes to delivery.

    To me it is nothing more than a nihilistic paranoid idealism that inspires people to vegetate. The fact that the revolution (or rather revulsion as there really isn’t much actual resolve when it comes to the hard parts) is built entirely on complaining and hating stuff.

    Wow … “It’s going to be Great.”

    You should be happy I’m just “Brexiting” the whole useless, futile and pointless Brexit process. Apparently the world has never been angry before Brexit and Trump and now suddenly things are going to be great.

    I’m “Brexiting” that Europe and the EU is run by federalists instead of 28 proud nations with many of the same concerns as the UK.

    I’m “Brexiting” that the UK is somehow owed something and is somehow independent just because it says it is.

    I’m “Brexiting” that the handwaves that have been used to reassure people about the mitigations of the risks of Brexit are nothing more than empty platitudes, humiliating ignorance, and drawn from a sheer lack of expertise, experience or even the will to experiment.

    I’m “Brexiting” any hope for the UK unless there is a massive change of attitude.

    It’s ridiculous to think that quitting the EU is being used as almost an excuse to quit living, working and caring about other people.

    The UK is taken a path taken by Algeria, it really believes the USA and the rest of the world is going to come to it as some sort of Mecca, when the reality is it was just an Old Tired Nation with too much pride chasing its neighbours away.

    It’s not much more revolutionary as any other isolationist nation doing the exact same thing … say Israel or Palestine.

  • John Devane

    Angry? Far from it. And your vigilance was aimed at national politicians yet exempting the EU variety was it not?
    The holding to account of national politicians proved difficult enough. Why would you not question how much more difficult it is to hold to account the EU variety?
    You may not be aware of the subtle difference between a Remainer and a Remoaner? You say you scrutinise the leave campaign, yet dismiss its concerns regarding the EU’s political superstate objective as nothing more than empty platitudes. IOTW your scrutiny is about as useful as Timothy Farron’s, another discredited Remoaner politician.
    The act of leaving the EU is a cathartic feeling as it was a narrow escape from a brutal EU hell bent on destroying any last vestiges of national democracy. The UK electorate did more than threaten to leave; they delivered it. It was the tissue of lies and rampant Remain scaremongering that tried unsuccessfully to thwart the leave campaign but of course you’d never scrutinise that because it doesn’t support your anti UK pro EU narrative.
    I believe in calling out Remoaners for what they are. A balanced scrutiny of the Referendum would at least question why your pro Remain argument failed to persuade the UK Electorate of the merits of its case.
    Remoaners are like Remainers except the former cannot accept the democratic decision to leave. Instead they moan incessantly, re invent conditions post referendum, insult the intelligence of those that voted Brexit, demand neverendums and like all cults believe in the idealism of their cause; in this case a United States of Europe.

  • Kevin Breslin

    You are really get boring now. Firstly I have other nationals able to hold their government and their MEPs to account without engaging in some paranoid chavenistic superiority complex that other nations don’t understand the tenants of liberal democracy and the nature of politics.

    No one questioned the leaders of the Leave campaign until they were beaten into submission on their guilty consciousness and their phoney self assurance and their incompetence.

    There’s not going to be a narrow escape, Leavers will be banging their heads off desks wondering why things aren’t working looking for some Remain supporter or a European to pick a fight with long after the UK leaves the EU.

    Honestly, I doubt that Leave supporters could cope if they didn’t have pro-Europeans around to badger.

    Perhaps there’s separation anxiety, perhaps they think they be left lonely and afraid if they had to rely on like-minded people for companionship.

    I almost regret even entertaining this faux-outrage, but you are wasting your time if you think that I will trust anyone who evangelises Brexit when they need my vindication for their personal faith.

    I really don’t believe in Brexit, I don’t believe those who won the referendum have really taken on board any of the big challenges that are heading down the line.

    I’m sorry if you really cannot tolerate my opposition, but I’m sure there are dogs and rodents about you can take your Brexit arguments to if you just like hearing the sound of your own voice.

  • John Devane

    So instead of addressing the direction of travel the EU is taking with its superstate political union project you prefer to castigate Brexit as an evangelical movement. If anything the opposite is the case. You’re in favour obviously of the superstate project. Just come out and say it.

    I more than tolerate opposition. I am genuinely interested why Remoaners ( note not Remainers) are so convinced by this united states of Europe bs.. You haven’t once made a convincing case for it.

    Then you question why you condescendingly ever entertained this discourse because wait for it……It bores you!!! How about making a coherent case for your Europhile federalism. Instead you substitute any reasoned argument with childlike insults.

    Remoaners haven’t taken on board the immense self inflicted problems the EU faces, never mind the challenges of an unsustainable Euro currency and a host of basket economies.

    If you can’t so be it

  • Kevin Breslin

    Dogs, Rats, Cats … Go out and do something interesting with your life. Not going to entertain this pointless vendetta any longer.

  • John Devane

    Vendetta? To me it’s just robust argument. No offence meant.

  • John Devane

    Anecdotal evidence

  • John Devane

    What a load of sh….. nonsense. Do you even understand what a free trade agreement is? Obviously not. A UK EU free trade agreement would work both ways. Nothing whatsoever supremacist about that! The new Brexit UK just doesn’t want ‘membership’ of the single market because that’s just Remain in other guise. It requires free movement of EU citizens as its price. No a free trade agreement is more than adequate

  • John Devane

    The UK government is in favour of retaining the CTA along with the Irish government. They have every chance of making it a reality provided Brussels doesn’t impede what is in the interests of both the UK and Ireland