Culture of ignoring the law and disorder is the real block to peace


Whilst Gerry Adams may be looking for talks without preconditions (although it’s not entirely clear what he means by that) Warren Little points out in his column for the Impartial  Reporter far from there being a problem with just one murder, there is a broader problem with a broader culture which has grown up around a Peace Process™ driven Northern Ireland:

Nationalists complain with some merit that it is a bit rich for the unionist parties to revolt over Sinn Fein’s links to the IRA when the same unionists are happy to form pressure groups with the representatives of the UVF. But here’s the crux: the unionist parties’ perceived hypocrisy does not invalidate their stated concerns. Those same concerns are shared by many people who find the UVF’s representatives just as shady as they find Sinn Fein, if not more so.

That most unionists should approve of the UUP’s walk-out now, having let their concerns slide for so long, is largely because the Executive has all but eaten itself after a prolonged period of self-harm. The Maze, On-The-Runs fiasco, welfare deal implosion, the expenses scandal and finally the wanton abuse of petitions of concern. That series of blows has devalued Stormont to the extent that few believe it worth saving in its current form. Or rather, few believe that saving it is worth the ongoing risk of letting the underworld flourish, as it has appeared to do under the status quo. The McGuigan murder was just the final nudge.

If Stormont is to be rebuilt, and it will be, the parties and Governments must first work out a means of gradually restoring confidence in the rule of law. Only then can an atmosphere exist where all the compromises in the day to day working of a worthy government become possible.

 

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  • chrisjones2

    I have looked.

    What myth? Are you suggesting that PIRA didn’t murder around 2000 people?

    If so that’s interesting. Where are the figures please and the sources

  • chrisjones2

    “Shinners and SF have constantly called for these crimes to be investigated and the culprits locked up, no matter who they think they are. ”

    Yeah….and they promised to assist in the investigation into the McCartney murder and the Quinn murder and …….what happened?

    I seem to recall that with the Davidson murder they were quickly out of the traps and promised to hand over to the police all the tapes from their home CCTV systems (de rigeur in the Markets). I don’t seem to have heard a similar message on the McGuigan case so can you say how many tapes have been made available in that one? Perhaps yet again all the recorders were in the toilet or switched off at the crucial times.

    No Robin, you are smearing me as a liar to evade the central point. That presented with evidence that PIRA Fuel Laundering was poisoning the local water supply SF fought tooth and nail to remove the name of PIRA from the motion.

    Why do they want to cover that up? Why are they not out disclaiming the organisers and on the side of the ‘plain people’ of Louth? And why are you defending that?

  • chrisjones2

    You don’t have to believe anything or everything…….you sometimes just have to pretend to.

  • Zig70

    Unionist terrorist antenna, love it. A phrase that has depth.

  • Robin Keogh

    You sound like you live in a fantasy world of your own creation. You have no idea what information republicans have handed over to police, you just assume nothing has been forthcoming on the basis that the police have not made public whatever information they have and from whom they recieved it.

    I never called you a liar, i said you told a lie which u abdolutely did, in order to shore up your own manufactured theories.

    SF cant support a motion claiming an organisation that does not even exist are responsible, they can and are happy to support any move to censure criminal behaviour which you conveniently ignore because it does not fit with your conspiracy fantasies.

    GA is the TD for Louth, if the people there agree with you he will be sacked in a few months. If SF have been presented with evidence as u say, it beggars belief that the gardai are not in possesion of same.

    Now Chris can u not engage with me on here again, I have tried dozens of times to give you the benifit of the doubt. But your hatred for Shinners clouds your senses to the point where you cannot seperate fantasy from reality.

  • submariner

    The myth that you stated yourself In relation to the numbers or don’t you even read your own posts.

  • James7e

    I would argue that any attempt to subjugate an unwilling populace in NI into a fabricated ‘united’ Ireland would render those people unfree and thus there would be no peace. As is, Ireland and Northern Ireland are both free to choose their respective futures.

  • Redstar

    But the current statelet in the North is fabricated and has amply proven to be unworkable

  • submariner

    The 2500 myth or don’t you read your own posts.As for figures According to the Sutton index of deaths on the CAIN website Republicans killed 2058 people The Provos were responsible for 1707 deaths so you can see there is a bit of a difference than the 2500 you claimed. As a matter of interest where did you get your figures from

  • chrisjones2

    The same index. Between what years? The only figures I could see there ended in 1989

  • chrisjones2

    I asked you what they had done. We do know that in the McCartney case SF colluded with PSNI that they would lay off arresting some SF members in return for cooperation. PSNI kept their side of the deal but there was no co-operation. Wasnt that whole sordid little deal shameful?

    “I never called you a liar, i said you told a lie” ….you are getting surreal now

    “SF cant support a motion claiming an organisation that does not even exist are responsible” … PSNI says it exists, the two Governments say it exists, virtually every credible reporter says it exists. Gerry says it doesn’t exist but then he was never a member so how would he know. You say it doesn’t exist so how do you know?

    “they can and are happy to support any move to censure criminal behaviour” ….so will they be out demanding that fuel laundering sites in South Armagh and at Hackballscross be closed down?

    “it beggars belief that the gardai are not in possession of same” You are very very naiive. The Brits certainly dont want to close it down because it keeps the “ex Provos ” busy busy busy.

    “Now Chris can u not engage with me on here again,”

    Happily Robin. I will leave you strictly alone as you are so hopelessly out of your depth on this and I don’t want to shatter your myths . I fear it would be like telling the truth about Santa!!!

  • chrisjones2

  • IRF

    Yes but like I say, Cameron to his credit (and I’m no fan of his) has refused to go along with their request.

  • submariner

    The figures I quoted were between 1969 and 2001

  • Robin Keogh

    Good for you, now run along.

  • gendjinn

    Indeed he has. A rude surprise for Nesbitt et al, if Unionism can’t rely on the Tories anymore who can they?

  • Zeno

    They are all hypocrites. That’s not news. This lot will do anything to keep what little power they have in their grubby bloodstained hands.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Remind me Redstar, how many people have the state security services murdered in NI since the NI assembly was set up?
    If they are not actively murdering people at present (or even recently) then your statement is redundant.

  • Redstar

    They have a track record of murder- just like paramilitaries.

    We are being told we need to investigate if the various groups who carried out murder and other crimes are still at it.

    Surely that would include the state murder gangs too- especially as they utilised paramilitary gangs, both loyalist and republican for their evil deeds.

    We need to be certain they too aren’t still at it

    Of course this highlights the problem of who investigates who’s killing who. But then of course some don’t believe the state murdered anyone, eh Ghobsmacht

  • James7e

    Can be made to work just fine if we aren’t forced to indulge SF, and their private criminal army, in government. I’m sure many nationalists are as tired as unionists are of the Republicans looking to screw up the future for everybody.

  • mickfealty

    A government party bumping off a few local rivals is not a problem then?

  • mickfealty

    Now you have rather substantially shifted your argument.

  • Robin Keogh

    Are u accusing Sinn Fein members of murdering Mr McGuigan, be careful there Mick, ur a good guy, dont let ur prejudices land you in a stew.

  • Robin Keogh

    No Mick, i never made any argument, i simply pointed to the anomoly in the situation.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    “They have a track record of murder- just like paramilitaries.”

    And is this track record ongoing or does there appear to be a point where this is no longer the case?

    “We are being told we need to investigate if the various groups who carried out murder and other crimes are still at it.

    Surely that would include the state murder gangs too- especially as they utilised paramilitary gangs, both loyalist and republican for their evil deeds.

    Yes it would.

    1/ The past – I’d happily string ’em up

    2/ The present – examples please

    “We need to be certain they too aren’t still at it”

    Yes. I agree.

    However, you seem certain that the ARE still at it QUOTE: “Unfortunately the state security services going about murdering people is a major part of the problem not a solution

    If this was meant in the past tense then forgive my misinterpretation, but would you mind editing the comment to make the past tense element clear for it clearly reads as present tense.

    “Of course this highlights the problem of who investigates who’s killing who. But then of course some don’t believe the state murdered anyone, eh Ghobsmacht”

    Spare me your sarcasm, I’d happily string up anyone who murdered an innocent and I challenge you to find any comments of mine that even hint to the contrary.

    I see your point regarding who does the investigating, I’m up for outside investigators to be employed.

  • Pasty2012

    ” because of the past shortcomings of the State ” is this the new phrase to sweep State Murder under the carpet. The “Connected” people as you call them get away with murder – and the state get away with a short coming. Have you applied for a job with the British MOD by any chance and are awaiting word ?

  • New Yorker

    How many convictions have there been for fuel laundering?

  • Robin Keogh

    You hit the nail on the head

  • Robin Keogh

    I have been ordered to, but i thought you knew that already or are u just confusing yourself again?

  • Jimmyz

    Ireland was NEVER united……..(well apart from under British Rule)
    One Island two nations……
    It’s not that difficult to understand Robin.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Thank you Chris for the reassurance! But “So do the English actually have a part claim on Ireland that pre dates modern Irish as their ancestors were here before the modern Irish people developed” is a weird way of putting it in that case. The “English” (certainly that culture and polity built around the English language) developed out of the invasions of Germanic peoples in the fifth century after the withdrawal of the Roman Empire from Britain.

    I quote Wikipedia on this:

    “The English identity is of early mediaeval origin, when they were known in Old English as the Angelcynn (“family of the Angles”).……Their ethnonym is derived from the Angles, one of the Germanic peoples who migrated to Great Britain in the 5th century AD.”

    Three thousand years before this Ireland was beginning to be inhabited by peoples speaking a Proto-Celtic language. The modern Irish culture certainly has a far greater claim of continuity from this movement of peoples that the English culture! You are making a spurious political point that may not have cognisance of the work of Dr Adamson, but certainly covers the same dreary ground. Just why is the idea of Irishness so obnoxious to you, that you should have to formulate such bizarre suggestions? I know about the IRA thing, but that is such a tiny speck within a rich complex culture that has living roots in the most ancient continuous linguistic tradition in Europe, something of a privilege for us all. I entirely agree that we here share very much the same DNA markers, but that links our inheritance to the Hibernio-Scots culture, not that of the Sassenach……

    Ah well, back to ironing my kilt!

  • Pasty2012

    And the State who sponsored Unionist Terror Groups, supplied them weapons, training and intelligence information on people they wanted executed ?

    “all of which allow it to do what it wants and support its Unionist associates in doing what they want – including murder.”
    Along with the DUP Party who asked the UVF Not to call a Ceasefire – rubber boundaries there also is there not.
    The State and Unionists play out your accusations of rubber boundaries do they not ?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Not, James7e, with our history. It did not work just fine before 1968, and as long as both major politics parties feel at heart that there may be some solution of their “grievances” through some future recourse to violence (freelance or state violence) then everything happening now has simply moved from a short post conflict situation to a long pre-conflict situation.

    The will has to be there to genuinely co-operate for the common good of all and I can see neither camp standing sincerely behind that so very necessary position. In this the Unionists are just as culpable in their intransigence as their “partners in government”.

  • Jag

    And 41 years since the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, intelligence in respect of which *today* David Cameron himself stops being handed over to the Irish authorities. Never mind about feeling uneasy standing shoulder-to-shoulder next to Billy Hutchinson or representatives of UPRG, wouldn’t any right-thinking person be embarrassed to stand anywhere near the British prime minister?

  • Granni Trixie

    I think that Mr McGuigans murder which Mike Nesbitt claims galvanised him and the UUP to take action is the part which is most puzzeling – just doesn’t ring true. However now that paramilitarism and the dysfunction of Stormont are openly being acknowledged by the majority of politicians and the public, the ‘crisis’ can turn into an opportunity to get back n the right track.

    The sticking point relates to is there really the political will to change attitude and behaviour? I mean it may seem an unimportant thing ( especially compared to murder etc) but I was disgusted to read that leading unionists would not even go into a lift should a Sf person already be in the lift! How can you run business this way? You don’t need to change your thnking to change to professional behaviour. I conclude Therefore that the best chance for this country is that at the next election people vote in new people. Wishful thnking?

  • Granni Trixie

    You have a serious attitude problem.

  • Robin Keogh

    Lol, that sounds painful 😉

  • SeaanUiNeill

    It is, Robin, it is, so I’d not recommend it for anyone sane!

  • Catcher in the Rye

    You are into “when did you stop beating your wife” strawman territory here Mick.

    Of course a government party with a private army is a problem. My issue here is that, the way people get on, only a government party with a private army is a problem.

    The idea seems to be that if unionists can put some distance between themselves and the loyalist paramilitaries they openly flirt with in East Belfast and at the Twaddell protest camp that they can escape this kind of scrutiny.

    And of course the other idea is that loyalists can go around shooting people with near impunity, but since they aren’t in government it isn’t really a big deal.

  • Catcher in the Rye

    I was just answering your question.

  • Catcher in the Rye
  • Zeno

    Thanks. I was just replying to your answer.

  • Robin Keogh

    COYBIB at the moment, me nerves are in flitters !

  • kalista63

    If unionism is about cultural Britishness, there’s no shortage of it in the 26 counties, from Dublin to Cork to Donegal.

  • Nevin

    Unionism is mainly about NI’s continuing membership of the UK, kalista.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Good luck with the outcome, although I (predictably) cheer for Ulster, “Lámh Dhearg Abú” and all that jazz…….

  • Kevin Breslin

    “Reporter far from there being a problem with just one murder, there is abroader problem with a broader culture which has grown up around a Peace Process™ driven Northern Ireland:”

    Two things:

    1. A reporter has to report … this to me is commentary.

    2. I realize you’ve become technically a “dissident” now with all this “Peace Process™” malarkey, but this commentary does not share the interpretation you are now trying to impose on it.

  • babyface finlayson

    Zig70
    True enough I’m sure, but are we not beyond the stage where we think of Unionists as occupiers.? We are all the locals now.

  • barnshee

    dispute my account

  • barnshee

    Fuelled plants raided endlessly one arrest (HMRC staff dismissed for collusion)

  • Zig70

    The planters are now locals, that’s a given. I was just making the point that integration hasn’t been happening for hundreds of years. Maybe 30 or less since the majority of us saw the partners religion as an issue.

  • gendjinn

    That it’s acceptable for soldiers to murder civilians? Already disputed it but then I have morals, ethics and empathy. What’s your excuse?

  • Kevin Breslin

    I also think presumption of innocence and burden of proof are ignored … so people can accuse others of ignoring the law.

  • William Carr

    “But here’s the crux: the unionist parties’ perceived hypocrisy does not invalidate their stated concerns.”
    But it does, the unionist parties have no problem with working with terrorists, It republican terrorists they have problems with!
    Ruth Patterson attends a ceremony organized by loyalist terrorists to commemorate loyalist killers, no action taken by the DUP, Pacts with the UVF/UDA are perfectly acceptable to the DUP/UUP/TUV despite the fact that these groups are deeply involved in criminal activity and are believed to be recruiting.
    During the Flag riots the CC stated that he believed that members of the UVF/UDA were involved in the street violence but the groupings themselves were not, more or less what he said about IRA recently, Yet the Unionist party’s still felt able to form a pact with them.
    Sorry Mick the Hypocrisy of the Unionist part’s does invalidate their concerns.
    This “principled ” stance of the unionist party’s is about the next election and nothing else.