“We have repeat offenders who are alive and well, and what is to be done about them?”

So Spotlight brought us another look at how Sinn Fein and the IRA handled (and continue to handle) victims of sexual abusers inside their own organisation. In a sense the witness testimony of Paudie McGahan was far less charged than that of Mairia Cahill, and in some respects less shocking.

That’s probably because as the third major ‘witness’ we can now be pretty sure that Sinn Fein has an ongoing problem with the management of victims of child abuse at the hands of their own personnel.

Three aspects to McGahan’s interview are well worth highlighting:

  1. The choice of place where the IRA set its inquiry. Let alone was it in a house he no longer lived in, but was convened upstairs in the very room the alleged abuse occurred.
  2. The by now familiar choice given the victim: ie, we’ll nut him; we’ll let you nut him; or we’ll send him away. For anyone already traumatised by the original offence against the body, that’s no choice at all.
  3. The presence of an ‘IRA Psychiatrist’ in the room is a bizarre detail, but one that fits with the psychological manipulation of the victim to keep his counsel and perhaps, as a future incentive to making ‘the right choices’.

Although some of the details are new, the overall pattern suggests the real emphasis is on getting victims to remain quiet, whilst moving the perpetrator out of harm’s way.

Although as we noted at the time of the Cahill story, the story inside Sinn Fein is inconsistent on the matter. Peadar Toibin is in no doubt that this is exactly what the IRA, whilst Conor Murphy says he knows nothing about it. Or as the party president puts it,  “if you don’t ask, you can’t tell“.

So what, if any, are the politics of this?

Well, one, the issue hasn’t gone away. This case has still to go to court. And it is in the hands of the Guards, not the PSNI or the Northern Ireland DPP’s office.

It also seems likely, given the pathologies of other, far less innately brutalist institutions as seen in Rochdale, Rotherham, the Savile case, that this problem goes much wider and more deeply than is currently on view.

So far the politicking has been relatively light, and mostly limited to compassion for the victims. But with each revelation not only does the modus operandi become clearer, so does the contemporaneous nature of the problem.

The involvement of the then Dail Deputy Arthur Morgan, firstly in the frisking of the victim for bugs and then delivery of the news that the exiled alleged abuser had returned as recently as 2009 (and Councillor McGeough’s failure to comply with party policy last year) suggest this is very much a problem of the here and now.

Politically, as Tommie Gorman pointed out on Morning Ireland this morning, the nature of the offences themselves don’t really sit comfortably even in that liminal space between the criminal and political the IRA found themselves.

Clearly, the news did not go down well with Sinn Fein’s Mid Ulster MP Francie Molloy:

The MP has since removed the tweet, and apologised:

In a statement this morning, Mr Molloy said; “I apologise for any offence my post caused to Paudie McGahon or any victim of abuse.

“I hope that justice is served and the appropriate support delivered to Mr McGahon.”

Mr Molloy added: “Sinn Féin’s priority is to support victims of abuse whether that abuse is historical or contemporary and we will support victims in their efforts to get truth and justice.

“There is a currently a Garda investigation into these allegations. These matters are best dealt with in the justice system rather than trial by television and it is my hope that justice will be done.”

, , ,

  • Robin Keogh

    Actually Mick, Spotlight gave us a tragi mini movie complete with black and white film, scary music and many actors dressed as goons. Maybe it was hoping to appeal to avid Eastenders fans, that the programme was a real and accurate account of what happenned rather than just a piece of sensationalised clever camera work. Of course with Independent News and Media up to its neck in it, we could hardly have expected anything else.
    In any event they needn’t have bothered, Paudie’s words, demeaner and sincerity was all the viewer needed to know that he has been through a shocking ordeal, another example of how our beautiful mystical smiling Ireland hid a horrible monster behind its skirts. It appears now that up to 200 thousand of us were abused across this Island over the years. What sort of a messed up, sick society can allow such a wretched scourge to engulf it. I cannot imagine how Paudie has coped, not just with the alleged attack itself but also the alleged threat to his life as an add on. Whoever this man was, there is no doubt we are dealing with the lowest form of life on earth and I hope that the investigation leads to his arrest and imprisonment.
    More than that, i hope the hunt for his abuser is maintained and focused on getting Justice for Paudie, but I think we all know the usual suspects will take up the battle, not in defense of Paudie but as a weapon to try once again to bash in the front door of SF. More important is that I hope Spotlight and Indabimbo news and Media dont do anything stupid to affect the outcome of a future trial. We can be well assured that Paudie is far down their list of priorities when it comes to what they hope the fall-out might be.
    It seems that Paudie and his family were very much a part of the Republican family, what I gather from the programme was that their home was used as a safe house for IRA volunteers. His family were obviously dedicated to the cause, and its an outrage that an IRA member should abuse the family’s trust in such a despicable way. I am personally disgusted that the memory of so many fine Republican volunteers might be tainted by the actions of the men who allegedly caused such pain to Paudie, Mairia and others.
    As a SF supporter I have no hessitation in calling for the SF party and wider organisation to come forward with any information they have to the Gaurds or the PSNI. It is also important that those SF individuals who interacted with Paudie after the fact, give a full account of what those interactions were; what advice was sought and given, and who acted as SF representatives.
    It has taken Paudie a very long time to find the courage to come forward with his story, unlike Mairia he has a chance of seeing justice being done, I hope the media will not interfere with that opportunity… I wont hold my breath.

  • Jay

    Every single victim needs to make themselves heard. SF need to reveal every single kangaroo court they have ever sat. Every abuser they have dealt with. They could save a lot of face, maybe even gain abit of respect if they stood up and said
    “This is how we dealt with these situations, at the time we thought our actions were correct, we apologise. Here is a list of ABC that happened in XYZ, we fully support the Gardai and PSNI in all there enquiries” Be honest ffs. It’s hardly like your past image is that impressive anyway, you killed people for christs sake. Own up!!

  • Robin Keogh

    Its a nice Ideal but to do that – even if they had the info – if might mean exposing victims to an ordeal that they are not prepared to face. Your suggestion is flawed on the basis that it is not victim centred and in my view, and from my own personal experience, the victim has to be at the heart of any sort of investigation.

  • james

    I think an enquiry is needed into this squalid chapter of Irish history, and light needs to be shone into how many current Sinn Fein members were involved or even implicated in these shocking crimes. Interesting that they are now claiming that going to the police was not an option because of the usual “policing problem”. Given that this happened in the Irish Republic, does this mean Sinn Fein now include the Guards and the Irish government on the long list of their ‘oppressors’?

  • james

    Furthermore, one would hope that OTR letters will not be produced to protect culprits.

  • Robin Keogh

    Joe I am not here to do a question and answer session with you. If you have anything substantial to say or any sort of analysis to offer that might help us all wade through the issue, let us hear it. Sniping form the sidelines is not only cowardly but its shockingly lazy and helps nobody.

  • Robin Keogh

    For Paudies’s famuily at least and given the fact that they were clearly centred at the heart of the republican movement in Louth, it would have been anathema to them to go to the authorities North or South under any circumstances, such was the culture of the time.

  • Glenn Clare

    If they could not go the Garda, should the Garda now be charging them with assisting Sinn Fein/IRA terrorists.

  • barnshee

    unable to reply then

  • Robin Keogh

    Glenn, if u would like to take on my views or opinions please at least try to respect me. I am quite happy to learn and be influenced by the opinions of others but it is very difficult to do i the face of snipes, swipes and nonsensical interjections. If you cant engage intelligently please look elswhere for a playmate.

  • Glenn Clare

    Is a direct question to much for a shinner/provo!!! All is required is a yes or no.

  • Tacapall

    What a shocking revelation my heart goes out to the victim how could anyone not be disgusted and enraged that any victim would be treated so trivially and dismissive but its not unexpected and it wont be the last, this issue will be used as a rod to beat all of Sinn Fein for the actions of a few, this drip feeding of cover ups within the republican movement is soul destroying for those who give everything and gained nothing, only mirrored by the same cover ups at Westminster by government ministers engaged in politics just as long as those within the republican movement, who also turned a blind eye and covered up the same sordid type of abuse in order to blackmail and gain political advantage, the likes of which, will in all likelihood never be brought up by the likes of Mick, Pete or whoever decides whats allowed to be debated.

  • mickfealty

    Robin,

    More simply, its another pin in an otherwise dark map.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    It seems Robin that regardless of what Sinn Fein and the IRA have done and do at present, you will continue to support them without question. However as has been pointed out, when it’s on the Unionist side of the fence you can’t help but play Lord Protector denouncing all so called evils.

  • David Crookes

    I had thought better of Mr Molloy. In the event I’m glad that he has shown us what he’s really like inside.
    His tweet resembles rape to the extent that it cannot be magically annulled by a hypocritical apology.
    That tweet would spell the end of his political career if he belonged to a normal political party, but there is no form of sewage which a certain party’s zombie-electors will not obediently lick up.
    I’ll therefore be amazed if Mr Molloy suffers anything more than a momentary feeling of embarrassment.

  • james

    Very convenient for IRA, then, given that this story – and quite possibly many, many more like it, would have shattered the innocent ”boyos on a bike” myth they peddle to all and sundry. Also, one suspects, very convenient for contemporary Sinn Fein. The IRA were a scourge on society, to their opponents and supporters alike, and SF seem intent on continuing to cover for them. I will say again that I think it is high time an enquiry was at least seriously discussed into the degree of separation (if any) between the two organizations and whether the IRA really did “leave the stage”, or merely changed costumes.

  • james

    Are you suggesting, then, brushing it under the carpet? The victims of such crimes will already have been traumatized. Who stands to lose by their reporting it to the police are only those who are guilty and complicit.

  • Robin Keogh

    You have no idea what criteria i apply when deciding who or who not to support. And i dont know why u are bringing whataboutery into it? I certainly have not gone there. Where the state are found complicit in covering up rape or child abuse i have always said that the individuals involved should answer for their actions, in the same way that i have called for those with any knowledge of events within SF to come come forward to the authorities, i am not quite sure what part of all that u are having a problem with?

  • james

    What kind of punishment do you think should apply to those who carried out such attacks? And indeed to the enablers who covered it up and rotated the guilty parties?

  • Robin Keogh

    its a blatant stupid question, and dont shout at me please, try to engage with some dignity it u can. If the Gaurds have questions for Paudies family regarding their connections to the IRA then obviously its up to the Gaurds to make a decision about that. But in the context of how the man is suffering now, i doubt it would be very humane.

  • Robin Keogh

    I am just saying that u cant force victims to come forward if they dont want to. However they can be encouraged through counselling and care. It is this latter approach that puts victims at the centre rather than pushing them to the edge.

  • james

    I fully agree with that, Robin. It should be a matter of choice to come forward – but it is disgraceful that they are actively discouraged from doing so. Victims are hardly encouraged by the orchestrated campaign on social media against Maria Cahill and the comments of Francie Molloy on this case.

  • james

    And, yes, while I do have huge sympathy for the victim in this case, I do also feel that his family role in hiding members of a criminal organization should also be the subject of enquiries by the Guards.

  • Robin Keogh

    If an abuser is found guilty I believe it is the courts who should decide the punishment, it is certainly not for me or anybody else to over-ride the judicial process in that regard. For those that have covered up such crimes, again its up to the courts to decide to what extent they were complicit in protecting the abuser from prosecution and what punishment if any should follow. My own priority, if it were up to me is to first of all find Paudie’s alleged rapist and deal with him through the courts rather than by-passing the culprit in a vain attempt cause political damage to my opponent. Paudie and others in his position need to be given priority in all of this and if it results in some SF heads rolling, i certainly will not spill any tears for them. But if it ends up in another anti shinner witch hunt, we are more likely to see witnesses withdraw in fear of exposure, meaning Paudie and others like Mairia, will be left to wither on the vine as the media and politcal opportunists move on to another topic.

  • Robin Keogh

    Mick, at this stage we could probably drain the last bit of colour out of a map of Ireland and fill it with pins given the sheer extent of abuse in this country. The problem of course is where exactly to stick the pin. Into the abuser? Into the family? Into SF? Into the victim? Into the police? Into negligent politcal representatives? Into the IRA? You can be sure that there will be people with very different views of who or what is deserving of the blame for this and you can be equally sure that not all of them will have Paudie’s best interests at heart.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Out of interest and this is a genuine question as I agree with most of what you said, however why would you have thought better of Molloy?

  • Robin Keogh

    James, as a Catholic I was shocked and horrified at the child abuse revelations…but I am still a Catholic… I know dozens of Religious who dedicated their lives to the service of their people… While I am disgusted by the antics of many catholic Clergy I admire greatly those who honour the Church with the their service and charity. Equally while I am horrified at the actions of those IRA members who engaged such horrendous acts against the innocent, it in no way diminishes my admiration and respect for those who held faith with the true princilples of Irish Republicanism (See The Proclamation).

  • Glenn Clare

    Humane and the shinners/proves show humanity.

  • Robin Keogh

    I dont know what the F%^&K Francie Molloy was at. I can only assume he was enraged by the typical BBC/ INM sensationalisation of the story. I was too, but he should have known better than to rise to it like he did. He obviously realised he had messed up and withdrew the comment… but still, think before you speak especially when u are a public rep.

  • Robin Keogh

    Punctuation ?

  • David Crookes

    Thanks, Joe. I reckoned that he was more urbane, that’s all. That may be a stupid thing to say, because I haven’t gone out of my way to analyse the man’s pronouncements.
    If the tweet represented merely a sudden explosion of bad temper it might be forgiven by many people, but the six letters BLUESH reveal Mr Molloy’s message to be carefully crafted and carefully directed. Those six letters bear a solemn message: to criticize the morals of the IRA is to be a quisling. Or in cruder language, ‘We may love rapists, but our critics love the Brits, which is far worse.’

  • Niall Noígíallach

    How may times in a single day Glenn would you say that you both write and speak the phrase “shinner/provo”?

    Also, what impact does this actually have on Irish republicanism in the long term?

    We are all ears,

    Yours Sincerely,

    Shinner/provo

  • Tacapall

    “but there is no form of sewage which a certain party’s zombie-electors will not obediently lick up”

    Can the same be said of those people who obediently lick up the sewage to support the Tory party, or those obedient Labour supporters who once the deckchairs are rearranged when scandal after scandal is exposed continue to elect in their hundreds of thousands the same people who covered up the same abuse.

  • james

    No matter which heads they are? Even if some of the heads that rolled belonged to the leadership?

  • james

    I would say the Proclamation, and the flag which embraced the Orange section of Irish society, bears precious little relation to Republican actions in recent decades.

  • David Crookes

    Thanks for the question, Tacapall, to which the answer is: please let us keep to the subject! It’ll be a sad day for intelligent discourse if every time someone says something specific about the sins of North Korea we are obliged to rush off and consider the sins of South Korea.

  • james

    I suspect what he was at was sending a message that any criticism of the Republican movement whatever makes one a West Brit.

  • Tacapall

    David is it okay if I remind you this is the British controlled, Westminster governed part of Ireland, the event your referring to happened in the 26 county Irish republic, Francie Malloy is elected in the British governed part of Ireland so his electors would be represented by Westminister and the parliament he refuses to take his seat in is at this point in time engaged in a cover up of child abuse and peadophilia even bigger than the above and one you seem to ignore and want to also cover up.

  • Robin Keogh

    Yes David do try keeping to the subject without subjecting voters and individuals to unnessecary insults in order to gratify your own anger or justify why people may hold a different view to yourself…good man

  • Robin Keogh

    James u seem to be a bit behind. If the leadership of any organisation is charged with a crime, brought before the courts, found guilty and appropriately dealt with… as dissapointed as we might be… we have to suck it up.

  • Robin Keogh

    Thats a matter of opinion

  • Robin Keogh

    Maybe, but I think he is a bit long in the tooth now to be getting upset at critics of Republicanism, its not as if he hasnt heard it all before.

  • David Crookes

    Thanks, Robin and Tacapall. If we’re going to drag in politicians from other parties, let me make three points.

    The Liam Adams affair would have finished Peter Robinson.

    The Liam Adams affair would have finished Enda Kenny.

    The Liam Adams affair would have finished David Cameron.
    Now back to Mr Molloy. Last night’s programme was not a load of rubbish, and it may not be invalidated by the adduction of irrelevant matters.
    We’re talking about Mr Molloy and his BLUESH accusation.
    We’re not ignoring any other scandal.
    We can talk about other scandals on another thread, and at another time.
    Scandals relating to Britain, or Europe, or Africa, or the USA are not germane to our present discussion.

  • Granni Trixie

    Note the pattern of Republican supporters in such cases: big up their wholehearted sympathy for the victim whilst shooting the messenger. Then slip in this and that detail to try to obscure a focus on the culpability of the Ira as an organisation,

    Btw, Mairia Cahill has not withered on the vine – isn’t there for instance a formal, independent investigation set up but the Doj into what happened in her legal case? And up to the present day aren’t individuals and communities articulating support for her? She often demonstrates that she has no intention of going away anytime soon.
    Seems to me also that each of these two victims are taking power into their own hands not at all that they are “being used” by spotlight or other journalists. Other than staunch SF supporters I think most of us are in awe of their courage. I pray (which I don’t do as a rule) that they remain safe.

    Agree with the posts comment about the IRA Psychiatrist would be interesting to know if this illegal role leads to her being struck off.

  • Robin Keogh

    I simply asked you to refrain from lashing insults out at the electorate man, I never suggested dragging anybody into the fray politician or other…you need to calm down

  • Robin Keogh

    Granni, as much as you may like to think u have the market cornered when it comes to sympathising with victims, u are foolish to elevate yourself to such heights. Intolerance of other views and opinions is more a mask to hide your own severe short comings when it to comes to balance, fairness and due process. Nobody has of yet tried to obscure anything, they simply have commentated in a way that does not suit your own aganda, which is par for the course in healthy debate, you do well to focus on providing credible solutions rather than try smear people based on your own sub-starndards.

  • Practically_Family

    “Agree with the posts comment about the IRA Psychiatrist would be
    interesting to know if this illegal role leads to her being struck off. ”

    That or made Health Minister.

  • Tacapall

    Kincora didn’t finish Paisley just like Jimmy Saville didn’t finish the Royal family nor did Leon Brittan finish Thatcher and Lord Bramall is still Lord Bramall, so whats your point are some victims more important than others. I know you would like to cherry pick victims and their sufferings for your own selfish reasons as your quite happy to intertwine what happens in the Republic with what happens in the UK controlled part of Ireland so what happens in Westminster is relevant to this discussion after all Francie Molloy is a Westminster MP.

  • David Crookes

    All right, Robin, let me use temperate language. It bemuses me that a scandal which would unseat any other party leader in the RoI or the UK is unable to unseat the leader of SF. Thanks for your posting.

  • David Crookes

    Let us suppose that Kermit the Frog does something bad.
    Some of us decide to discuss what he has done.
    But we find it hard to hear our own deliberations. All round us people are shouting, ‘What about Miss Piggy? You want to cover up the Miss Piggy scandal, don’t you?’
    Miss Piggy has nothing to do with the case, so if I’m not allowed to talk about Kermit the Frog I may as well go and discuss marine ivory with Chumley the Walrus.

  • Guest

    Both Mairia Cahill, Paudie McGahan & I’m sure others have had a grievous crime committed against them. On top of that they have not received justice. Neither from the republican community they come from, nor from the state.

    What has emerged is that Sinn Fein has been involved in running kangaroo courts. In the two cases we know about the victim was ultimately believed and then given a ghastly choice of punishment. That both Mairia & Paudie choose exile over the other options speaks to their character and gives credence to their stories.

    Yes their stories are being promoted by the usual suspects that are out to get SF. However that in no way diminishes the crucial question – WTF is SF doing running a kangaroo court & offering to have people murdered in 2002? Whatever you want to say about the conflict, distrust for RUC etc that does not get you off the hook for 2002.

    The next question then has to be – when did you stop?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Mr C, I confess ignorance at this point, what exactly does BLUESH mean/refer to?

  • Robin Keogh

    If u think u are going to draw me in to a circular whataboutery argument on the tit for tat combat nature of the war, u are very mistaken. Stay on topic.

  • Tacapall

    Blueshirts.

  • Niall Noígíallach

    If you haven’t already guessed, noticed or been told David, the Sinners couldn’t give a toss about what anyone else thinks, especially the media and their political opponents. That’s why he’s still leader. It’s their party and nobody elses. They’re in it for the long haul chief. The very long haul. End goal all-Ireland republic. Nothing is getting in the way of that. They’re ticking long nicely.

    Bizarrely the onslaught against Adams in recent years has cemented his position as leader even more. Why would you dispense of someone who makes your opponents behave like an eight year old on a bouncey castle after two litres of Coca Cola?

    Put it this way, if Roy McShane (Adams’ former driver) and Denis Donaldson (his close friend) had been working for the British for years as informers and they couldn’t unseat him as leader through or using them, do you really believe that Spotlight, Independent News and Media and a series of blogs will? A blind man on a galloping horse could even tell you it ain’t happening

  • Robin Keogh

    Why would it unseat him… nothing in the report suggested he had any hand act or part in any of it.

  • Tacapall

    Did Miss Piggy do exactly what Kermit the Frog did and was her actions covered up or in the process of being covered up at the same time but you just want to focus on Kermit ?

  • Robin Keogh

    Lol, that made me laugh. Bouncey castles and coca cola.. brilliant

  • Robin Keogh

    Thank you 😉

  • Granni Trixie

    Robin

    Happy to have rattled your cage.

  • Robin Keogh

    little amuses the meek

  • mickfealty

    I think the strength of this programme is the way it built upon insights gleaned from the previous one. In particular, you could see the inquiry as a form of chillingly manipulative piece of theatre (all politics at the end of the day is theatre, even this bottom end version).

    So setting aside any natural feeling of sympathy for the alleged victim in this case, we see a play of sorts, with an entrance, a foyer, even an usher, all intended to instill respect, and the dread fear of the courtroom.

    Add to that that the enquiry is set at the scene of the alleged crime and you are walking into a space that is no abstracted or imagined, but is only too real for you. A singular and shaming reminder of the vulnerability of the very moment of the rape.

    Add to that again the by now familiar offer of ‘three choices’ that aren’t actually choices at all for any normal human being, never mind someone who’s not only been traumatised but is having the source of that trauma dramatised and scaled off the map.

    It’s an MO worthy of the late L Ron Hubbard (http://goo.gl/riVWVb)…

  • David Crookes

    Thanks, Tacapall and Robin. Maybe everything is indeed ticking along nicely. But if you cover up rapes on the way to the throne, you will cover up rapes when you sit on the throne. That’s why many people who see a unified Ireland as the best way forward are unable to contemplate a UI with SF on the throne. These people aren’t afraid of what SF might turn out to be like. They can see exactly what SF are like now, so they know exactly what SF will be like if they get on to the throne.
    SF don’t seem to realize that they are showing everyone exactly what they are like. Of course their supporters don’t mind, because they had a lovely time at the bouncy castle, I mean the ard fheis, drinking their Fanta-stical Britvic.

  • Robin Keogh

    I am always very curious about these dramatizations in what is left on the editing room floor. The INM guy who was on the programme last night said he had been working with Paudie over the last six years. I wonder did he report the incident to the police? I also noted that there were no interviews with family or friends, it made it seem as if the lad had no support around him, i certainly hope that is not the case. In all the time INM and the BBC team where working with him did they find out anything about IRA activities considering how close his family seemed to the centre of the republican movement, and if they did pick up anything have they passed that to the police? I think there is a lot more in all of this, choppy waters ahead for everyone involved.

  • David Crookes

    Agree 100%, James.

  • mickfealty

    You don’t get the L Ron allusion then?

  • Robin Keogh

    Sorry yes i think i get u and i dont disagree, i would certainly feel better if the courts took over, for sure…btw check ur email

  • james

    Indeed. Do you think that Sinn Fein have worked to prepare the foundations for a united country in which their Orange brethern will be welcome and prosperous? Have they furthered the cause of peace in the last 40 years, which the white is supposed to represent? Or have they forgotten the original meaning of their flag?

  • Robin Keogh

    I think that SF have shown the way in reaching across the divide in terms of the peace process and its commitment to represent all citizens regardless of their personal beliefs when it come to government. Althought its not easy to appeal to the orange order when most of them hate catholics , gays and anybody else who doesnt swear to the sash. In terms of peace, they have certainly helped bring an end to the conflict and thats a great thing in my view. If u look at GA speech at the ard fheis last weekend he specifically mentioned the importance of all colours in the flag in terms of brining us all together

  • james

    Words which are not backed up by sincere actions mean nothing imho.

  • Robin Keogh

    True but then our perception of what is sincere or insincere is subjective

  • LordSummerisle

    So you actually know what happened in Kincora ?

  • Tacapall

    No LS I only know what I hear from the victims and whats being disclosed by former British spies – Why are they telling lies and are all those victims of Jimmy Saville and his brother and all the victims of peadophile politicians over in Westminster telling lies ?

  • Tacapall

    David dont lump me in as a Sinn Fein supporter I wouldn’t take part in a British election if you paid me to and if I was allowed to vote in the Dail I certainly wouldn’t vote for Sinn Fein and quite the opposite I wish to see all rape by those in positions of power highlighted including those victims who’s rapists and abusers are being covered up by those already on the Throne.

  • David Crookes

    Thanks a lot, Tacapall, and sorry if you thought that I was characterizing you.
    We can agree about quite a lot.
    Ugly things happen when people get into power. If you and I set up tomorrow the All-Ireland Moral Righteousness Party, and swept to power on both sides of the border, we should be unable to guarantee the perfect moral righteousness of all our members for even one year.
    In the present case, the argument comes down to one question. Does the moral record of a certain party render it unfit to hold significant political power in the near future? Only electors can give a meaningful answer to that question.

  • Tacapall

    Thank you David and yes we can and do agree on a lot of issues. Yes ugly things can happen when ex combatants from war or conflicts become politicians, history is littered with Churchills, Husseins and Pol Pots however none of them got to where they got to without being sponsored or supported by others in high places both financially and publicly but collectively labeling a group of people for the actions of a minority should either be applied across the board or not applied at all, like the law applies to everyone or no-one.

  • John Collins

    Well the Louise O’Keeffe case did not finish Kenny

  • Joe_Hoggs

    I would love an explanation Mick as to why my comment on this topic which received quite a lot of approval was deemed necessary to remove?

  • David Crookes

    Thanks for your comment, John.
    Louise O’Keefe was abused in 1973, when Enda Kenny was 22.
    Enda Kenny was first elected to the Dail in 1975.
    The case of Liam and Gerry Adams is completely different.

  • John Collins

    Al government parties over the past long number of years disgracefully defended the indefensible as the European Court resoundingly confirmed. I absolutely detest Sinn Fein and all their lies, but that does not alter the fact that this fine lady was also treated horrendously.

  • Spike

    Too many politicians involved and will probably not allow that to happen whether they be from republican, loyalist, unionist, nationalist or FG/FF. one now wonders what the point of the GFA was? The majority voted to support it and by doing that we turned a page on the ‘troubles’. What was the point of involving former republicans and loyalists in politics if the past constantly becomes a political football and a stick to beat them with. We cant have it both ways. We all know these kangaroo courts were rife and at the time they were accepted by both communities.
    If some victims availed of one of the ‘3’ options presented to them by these courts are we then to prosecute them for the end result to the alleged perpetrator?? Can of worms

  • Spike

    Bottom line is that the alleged perpatrator of the heinous act against Paudie MUST be found and tried in a court for his actions which no reasonable republican (or otherwise) could ever say was an action done in the name of a united Ireland. I would expect if a soldier in any army around the world steps out of line or does their own thing then there is consequences for their actions – in this case a court case and imprisonment.

  • John Collins

    David
    There is one thing that sooner or later may trip up Sinn Fein in the South. The prospect of they ever getting more than 25% of the vote is remote thus making it very difficult for them to be anything but a junior partner in Govt. Every Junior partner in Government here since the thirties has died on the vine and most of them have disappeared altogether. On the other hand if they continue to refuse to go into government people will just lose interest in them

  • David Crookes

    Thanks, John! I wonder then if the idea of a SF government in the RoI is a bit like the idea of Marine Le Pen as president of France. Nice to talk about (or even vote for in the opening round), but not a serious choice in the long term.