2013 contingency plan: let’s get all Belfast lodges to go to #Ardoyne

The Irish News is reporting  that the Orange Order may put a contingency plan in place that would see all lodges in Belfast take a return route that takes them to the restricted section at Ardoyne (via paywall). According to the Irish News:

It is believed they [the Orange Order] are considering asking Orangemen to march home from the field along with the three north Belfast lodges banned from walking the Crumlin Road.

With perhaps little sense of irony the Grand Lodge issued a statement yesterday:

The ludicrous decision by the Parades Commission regarding the long established and legitimate return parade by three Ligoniel Lodges on the Twelfth evening has effectively signed the death warrant of this discredited and unaccountable quango. This antiquated and unelected body is clearly not content in merely stifling our proud Protestant culture and heritage; but increasingly by its actions is causing irreparable damage to community relations and a so-called shared future in north Belfast…Despite such unprecedented initiatives, the Parades Commission has opted to reward violence and notably the threat posed by dissident republicans. Who can forget the masked gunman, armed with an AK47 rifle, on the streets of Ardoyne last year? …In spite of obvious provocation, we would call on all not to be drawn into the trap being set by the commission and republicans. While violence may have closed this thoroughfare to a dignified parade; conversely, it will not open the road either.

It also talks up the recent talks over the Ardoyne parade, which only began last week, saying:

… recent genuine and sincere efforts by the County Grand Orange Lodge of Belfast to defuse tensions concerning Loyal Order parades in this part of the city. Ligoniel brethren took the bold and proactive decision to engage with nationalist residents following on from the publication of the comprehensive template, designed to address the issue of respect concerning St Patrick’s Roman Catholic Church.

However, it was widely reported back in May that the Orders were putting the Ballysillan Park contingency in place, almost two months before it attempted to engage in the last minute talks (note there was a time restriction to the return leg last year). If it does proceed with plans to reroute all the Belfast lodges to Ballysillan Park, presumably even the Orders cannot feign innocence on a serious question that throws any pretence at non-violence out the window: how on earth do they think they will arrive at Ballysillan Park from the Crumlin Road other than by the forcing their way through at Ardoyne? Even a contingency plan of Ballysillan Park is an overt threat of violence, as much as marching the usual foot soldiers up to the top of the hill.

Hopefully, the supposed ‘contingency plan’ turns out to be little more than a bargaining chip with the Parades Commission that came to nothing.

 

, , ,

  • Tomás Ó Néill

    I’ll presume you didnt hear our loyal friend Gregory Campbell on Nolan this morning dragging up Drumcree, it seems like the OO needs a new rallying call. Its beggar’s belief that the OO want credit for their thinly-veiled attempt at conning the Parades Commision a week before the 12th!

  • Morpheus

    I love the way the OO has the audacity to call the Parades Commission ‘antiquated’.

  • redstar2011

    I genuinely dont see this happening. It would be a total disaster for the OO and they are not that daft

  • michael-mcivor

    To little to late for the orange order to be making threats-like who do they think they are-they want to show their whole group being held by the law from walking where they demand on T.V again-

    A dope does a stupid thing once-but the Orange Order keeps on giving-

  • redstar2011

    Reads like an Irish News made up yarn to me

  • boondock

    Well if it did happen it would almost certainly prevent the North Belfast orange men from using this route ever again but I guess forward thinking isnt something there used to.

  • pomdotcom

    redstar2011, you say that “the OO are not that daft”

    I certainly have my doubts. As a non marching, non flag waving unionist I have no time for the OO and wish they would stop trying to drag us all back into the “dark ages”.

  • redstar2011

    Thats my pointbboondock. It would turn it into a mini Drumcree with a similar eventual outcome. They are bigoted, throwbacks etc etc but NOT that daft

  • Im not so sure.
    Whatevef happened the Spirit of Dumcree? Will there be a Spirit of Ligoniel?
    At its heart this isnt about Residents versus Orange Order ( and Comrade Stalin) made a similar point yesterday). Its really about a battle within loyalism (and arguably one within republicanism).

    DUP and Sinn Fein have to rally the troops by getting expelled from the House of Commons or being attached to the radiator of a PSNI Land Rover. But really Nigel Dodds and Gerry Kelly needed to be seen to do something for their own core…wary of the fact that most of them will feel the need for some optics…while for the dissidents within the two communities, the object of the exercise is to destroy whatever it is we have post-1998.
    For both DUP and SF, thats the nightmare scenario. They both want September to come along quickly where they can get back to normal. Co-operation until mid June 2014.
    But I think mass protests by bringing The Twelfth Night to The Crumlin Road is a high risk strategy.
    First of all there is that threat that it cannot be contained (and thats what Loyalist dissidents want).
    And secondly Drumcree was a disaster.

    Ultimately the sight of Trimble pointing and gesticulating in the Drumcree Graveyard and the sight of Trimble being roughly handled at his Westminster Election Count, a few short years later will concentrate minds.

  • GEF

    “It is believed they [the Orange Order] are considering asking Orangemen to march home from the field along with the three north Belfast lodges banned from walking the Crumlin Road.”

    John Ó Néill,
    would you please include evidence for this statement?

  • redstar2011

    Gef I believe John is just quoting from Irish News

  • michael-mcivor

    If all the Belfast lodges are going to Ardoyne on the 12th
    that means that a lot of Belfast lodges will not be taking their traditional walk back home-can they not see the irony-

    Stupid is what Stupid does-

  • John Ó Néill

    The clue was the preceding line:

    According to the Irish News:

    It is believed they [the Orange Order] are considering asking Orangemen to march home from the field along with the three north Belfast lodges banned from walking the Crumlin Road.

    It’s on page 3, story is by Allison Morris.

  • cynic2

    The could of course go down Agnes St across onto the Cliftonville Road and up that way to the old park road and into the playing fields. And as they have now realized, if they don’t tell the PC it has no power to adjudicate on them

    I stress I am not suggesting this ….but it is an option for them as is fortwilliam road / cavehill road. They could even turn the Twelfth on its head and take the whole parade along that route to Ballysillan. Would PSNI then dare to stop it? How could they cope with 9000 arrests or prosecutions?

    Baggot may need all his 600 English police and more but will their Police and Crime Commissioners be as happy when they realise what they have been sucked into? G8 has given them a totally false impression of the risks here

    I really hope that none of this comes to pass …..but the handling of this in media and political terms has been appalling giving the impression within unionism that the Commission has caved in in the face of Republican violence at the shopfronts.Within the contended political space of Ardoyne its also bad news fro SF. The message is clear – that violence works and that the dissers and their puppet residents group achieved more than the politicians in sticking it up to the Orangies.

    Thats very far from the whole picture but it has a resonance that will reverberate for months.

    After her lamentable performance on this I suggest the SoS starts to learn what her powers are and what is / is not a reserved matter.Cameron might consider the next reshuffle as a chance to put in post someone who know what they are doing or at least is prepared to spend more than a day a week here, rather than a friendly (but useless or disinterested) cast off in exile.

  • cynic2

    “Well if it did happen it would almost certainly prevent the North Belfast orange men from using this route ever again ”

    Really? Why?

  • redstar2011

    Cynic I wouldn’t see them being welcomed on the Cville Road. Also not too far for New Lodge etc to get involved.

    Its bluster.

    My prediction- on this occasion they will huff and puff but take it on the chin and then use that as a bargaining chip for next year

  • John Ó Néill

    cynic2 – they haven’t applied to walk those routes, nor would they get permission if they did – there is no alternative to get to Ballysillan from Crumlin Road other than up the Oldpark and through the Bone which is even less likely to get a go ahead than the Ardoyne shops.

  • Ulster Press Centre

    More baseless, disgusting, sectarian scaremongering and rabble-rousing from the Irish News – but what else would we expect from the ‘newspaper’ who’s sordid hate campaign drove protestant Asda worker Billy Hunter to take his own life?

    The disappointing thing is that Mick allows this drivel on his site – yet another excuse for Sinn Fein propaganda and an anti-protestant blog on Slugger O’Toole I guess…..

  • redstar2011

    God this is gonna hurt but UPC I agree with you its a load of Irish News sensationalist nonsense

  • tacapall

    UPC did Billy Hunter leave a note explaining why he took his own life, did he say he took his own life because the Irish news hounded him. Im not judging Billy Hunter he carried out a terrible act just like many others, as far as im concerned he paid his debt to society just as Mary Mc Ardle paid hers and Bik McFarlane paid his, but it seems unionists seem to want to be able to cherry pick who has and who hasn’t paid their debt to society.

    I dont think Slugger is anti Protestant anymore than I think its anti Catholic there is a wide diversity of views expressed and not everyone will always agree with everyone elses opinion but the majority try to be civil and and disagree without insulting one another.

  • michael-mcivor

    Ulster Press Centre is now blaming the Irish News for making the Hunter killer go out in his blaze of glory-

  • GEF

    “Gef I believe John is just quoting from Irish News”

    redstar 2011, I have looked at the Irish News connection John gave and there is nothing there.

  • GEF

    “It’s on page 3, story is by Allison Morris.”

    Thanks John but unfortunately I cannot find article on the internet.

  • John Ó Néill

    GEF – it is in the print copy in front of me on page 3 and behind the pay wall online (ie if you subscribe).

  • GEF

    One way for the 3 lodges to go is turn left at on the Crumlin Rd at Cambrai St, go along to Enfield St, turn right go along to beginning of Ballgomartin Rd. Go along to Forthriver Rd then turn right and go right up to Forthriver Drive. At the end of Forthriver Drive there is a well used footpath which connects to Glenside Park and upper Crumlin Road by the Ballysillan Presbyterian Church. The 3 lodges can then carry on up to their Lodge Hall in peaceful fashion.

  • stewart1

    Orange order’s Mervyn Gibson said on the radio at lunchtime that the Orange march won’t be completed until 3 lodges banned get home & called on people to stand with them.

    Sounds like the Irish News report was spot on.

  • GEF

    Thanks John, I will take your word for it as I am not subscribed to the IN.

  • John Ó Néill

    BBC now reporting Spencer Beattie saying there will be protests and that unionist community no longer recognise the Parades Commision*:
    He said the order asked that the commission “is no longer recognised, acknowledged or engaged with by any member of the unionist community.”
    “It is a determination that will halt progress towards a shared future and will set back community relations,” he added.
    “You cannot have a shared city when Protestants are excluded from two of the main arterial routes into Belfast; you cannot have a shared future where Christian music is banned from our streets.
    “Belfast is not a city of equals when the Parades Commission, at the behest of nationalists, discriminates and demonises the unionist community.”
    Mr Beattie said the Parades Commission’s decision on the order’s feeder parade past Ardoyne shops showed that “violence pays”.
    He said he looked forward to actions “planned by our unionist politicians and parties that will show – no longer will our British culture be attacked with impunity”.
    “The Protestant unionist loyalist community has had enough – the rot stops now,” he added.

    *A tip from history. Republican used to habitually refuse to recognise the jurisdiction of courts attempting to try them for offences. They just got longer sentences for it.

  • ForkHandles

    Is it not a breach of some human rights to ban people from public assembly because of their religion? Why don’t the OO go to the EU court on the grounds that they are being discriminated against because of their religion? Surely its a no brainer. Everyone knows that ‘residents’ are just people who are filled with hatred towards protestants. They are seeking to force a minority group out of a public space because they hate them. Comparing this sort of thing to racism has been done before, but I don’t think people in NI know any better than to think its somehow normal to hate people of another religion. Think of it as whites forcing blacks out of an area because they hate blacks and it should be pretty clear who is in the wrong.

  • Morpheus

    ForkHandles

    If you have to scrape the barrel to bring ‘blacks v whites’ into it then to nationalists this is now more akin to the KKK wanting to force a march through a black neighborhood to remind them of their place in society.

    Everyone needs to calm the feck down now, the parade goes through the area in the morning without protest it will just not be coming back that way.

  • Son of Strongbow

    Some nationalist posters have inadvertently underlined the problems facing the Loyal Orders in North Belfast. With the PC refusing them access to Ligoneil via the Crumlin Road (a main arterial road) there are no other practicable routes left for them.

    Similar difficulties were evident when the Lower Ormeau Road was blocked against them and now access to the City Centre at Peter’s Hill has come under scrutiny.

    Perhaps the agitation around Short Strand has the objective of making passage on Newtownards Road and Albertbridge Road equally difficult?

    Is the overarching strategy to make entry to the City Centre by the Loyal Orders verboten?

    It all could appear to be the replaying of an old game. Way back in the 80s when Obins Street and the Tunnel in Portadown were the focus as soon as the RUC successfully fought (literally) to close that route Gervaghy Road became the new front. The rest, as they say, is history.

    Is it really such a good idea to back people into corners?

    Is it not ironic that all this comes as Sinn Fein try to restart their ‘March on Dublin’ that will (allegedly) lead us all to the Golden Future Time of a ‘united’ Ireland?

    Ireland nua looks set to be much like the South post 1922 when suppressing unionist culture was seemingly one of the top items on the new state’s agenda.

  • 6crealist

    Yeah that’s exactly right ForkHandles, the situation here isn’t nuanced or hideously complicated in any way: your analogy is spot on.

    Nelson McCausland is a latter-day Rosa Parks.

  • DC

    (Please don’t be red carding UPC, not at this point!)

    i went looking for the irish news and the news agents i went into said ‘it should be here it normally doesn’t sell well’ – so the headlines and front page picture must have been popular to some unionists today.

  • tacapall

    “Why don’t the OO go to the EU court on the grounds that they are being discriminated against because of their religion”

    “By way of contrast, in Wise v. Dunning [1902] 1 KB 167 a Protestant preacher in Liverpool was held by this Court (Lord Alverstone CJ, Darling and Channell JJ) to be liable to be bound over to keep the peace upon proof that he habitually accompanied his public speeches with behaviour calculated to insult Roman Catholics. The distinction between the two cases is clear enough: the reactions of opponents would in either case be unlawful, but while in the first case they were the voluntary acts of people who could not properly be regarded as objects of provocation, in the second the conduct was calculated to provoke violent and disorderly reaction.”

    “English law does not recognise any special right of public meeting for political or other purposes.”

  • Comrade Stalin

    sonofstrongbow :

    Is it really such a good idea to back people into corners?

    I don’t agree with the ghettoization of routes and normally I’d be happy to write letters to my local politicians to complain about it, but since the Orange Order aren’t interested in my sympathy or winning cross-community support for their plight – especially after the behaviour of one of their bands outside St Patricks (and the arm-twisting to get them to acknowledge that they even did anything wrong) I don’t feel especially motivated to do so.

    It is clear from what you are describing that the Orange Order’s strategy of outright refusing to engage with the communities where they intend to march is causing more harm than good. Perhaps an alternative strategy (mooted in the face of defeat at Ardoyne last week) might yield better results – after all what is there now to lose ?

  • cynic2

    “nor would they get permission if they did”

    They might walk through Cliftonville which is not the Bone.

    And you miss the point. the locus of the PC only exists once a march is notified. The ‘refuses to recognise the PC’ line suggests no more notifications.

    If a march isn’t notified PC have no power, no locus at all. The March is then illegal but its for PSNI to decide how to police it. They will then have to do so through the prisms of:

    1 ECHR
    2 Their existing polices
    3 What will cause the least disruption / disorder / risk to life

    Hey presto and we are back to 1997 with Baggot on the rack. Simples

  • Comrade Stalin

    I’m afraid I have to agree with UVF Press Centre for once. The Irish News article sounds like speculation being made with the intention of inflaming tensions.

    It is, however, speculation based on past form. In the past loyalists and Orangemen have staged mass demonstrations when decisions were made that they disagreed with, most notably at Drumcree where marches around the country were cancelled and Orangemen (and lots of ‘roided up loyalist thugs) were bussed to the stand-off site. The then Chief Constable Hugh Annesley buckled under this unexpected pressure and the march went ahead.

    The problem is though, as FJH has said, while this “siege” may have ended in victory, the police and the Secretary of State resolved that this was the last time it would happen. This event is what led to the creation of the Parades Commission; and the police and army were installed at Drumcree in force and the march was never allowed through again. But, to date, the Orange Order have shown no inclination to think in a strategic fashion.

    I see today that the Orange Order are inciting lawbreaking by suggesting that people will take part in protests. A protest which is organized “in connection with a parade” is outright illegal under Section 7 of the Public Processions (Northern Ireland) Act 1998 and anyone involved in organizing or participating in such a protest is liable to arrest.

  • cynic2

    Everyone needs to calm the feck down now

    I suggest you go to Ligonel Orange Hall tomorrow and explain that to them. I am sure you will get a civil welcome

  • Comrade Stalin

    cynic2:

    And you miss the point. the locus of the PC only exists once a march is notified. The ‘refuses to recognise the PC’ line suggests no more notifications.

    But it is still illegal. Section 6, para 7 of the Public Processions (Northern Ireland) Act 1998 is clear :

    (7)A person who organises or takes part in a public procession—
    (a)in respect of which the requirements of this section as to notice have not been satisfied; or
    (b)which is held on a date, at a time or along a route which differs from the date, time or route specified in relation to it in the notice given under this section,shall be guilty of an offence.

  • cynic2

    One of the issues on Ardoyne is that the road isn’t owned by one community or another. One side is Unionist and the other Nationalist. De facto it is shared territory

    My personal gut feeling is that both should have reasonably free access to roads like this but the PC has decided not. That’s up to them to justify and carry the consequences of what now happens – whatever (if anything) that may be

  • cynic2

    Comrade

    Yes it is illegal. So what. Just shouting ‘It will be illegal’ means nothing

    The question is how will PSNI police it and that choice falls squareley on the Chief Constable. Do you expect them to block every OO march that’s not notified? They will still be busy

    Do they then let them march and prosecute? Fine…..but they will be busy and will need a lot more than 600 extra officers.

    Do they pick out the ringleaders? How do they prove they are ringleaders? Then what if lots of DUP Ministers start to walk too? Do they lock up half the Executive? How long do you expect Stormont to last then?

    Enforcing the law in any civil society needs the cooperation of most of the population. When they lose that they are stuffed

    And during all of this the Chief Constable and his senior officers will be under unending scrutiny at a time when their hold on their jobs may look increasingly tenuous anyway after HET gate, Contract gate and Desertcreat gate

    This could go horribly wrong. I hope it doesn’t but we slept-walked into Drumcree and I doubt that PSNI could manage a Drumcree scale oeprtaion

  • cynic2

    Perhaps what we need is a peace wall down the Crumlin Road from say the old Everton Complex to the Chapel?

    Red Sky could knock it up in a week or two

  • tacapall

    Its amazing the way unionist law abiding citizens can float the idea of civil unrest yet turn the other cheek and claim no responsibility for rolling the snowballs that they claim others will throw.

    Are we going to have another Springfield road stand off, where loyalists retorted to throwing bombs, shooting, and engaged in wide scale rioting with the police or another round of sectarian murders or little children burnt to death by sectarian bigots just because they cannot walk up a road. Is this the type of consequences thats being threatened by some unionist and loyalists ?

  • Son of Strongbow

    Comrade Stalin

    You are of course quite correct. The Orange Order do not endear themselves to many people outside of their own, diminishing, group.

    This includes a number from within the wider unionist demographic (shocking I know to those who regard the ‘PUL community’ as a homogenous kindred).

    Perhaps if unionist politicians were a little bit bolder they could encourage the Loyal Orders to a more outwardly focused understanding of where they are in society. I’m not so sure, or at least not as sure as some politicos seem to be, that there are that many Orange votes to lose (and perhaps some to gain) in response to a call for more intelligent thinking from within marching loyalism.

    However, in the meantime…….

    Should we restrict free speech to only those we agree with? Should the only messages heard be the cute fluffy ones?

    Should we allow only those who’s jib we like the cut of into the public space?

    Human Rights should surely not be so discriminating.

    ….and finally to nationalists. Is ‘this is our land and none other than us will pass on it’ really the future? I thought people planting their flag on a patch of earth and declaring their writ alone must run there was their beef with the Saxon foe for the past x years.

  • qwerty12345

    “Waaah my culture”

    “Waaah my civil rights”

    “Waaaah my fleg”

    “Waaah Waaah Waaah”

    Seriously. Thousands of marches and every lamp post covered in everything from Ulster Independence flags through to the Star of David and these fools still think they are being persecuted.

    Forkhandles no offence mate but your post gave me the best laugh, you should write a few paragraphs about how ecstasy could cure nationalists of their condition now.

    Im sorry to say it but the spoilt brat that is Unionism doesn’t need more sweets it needs the naughty step until it shows some sign of growing the hell up.

  • SK

    “Its amazing the way unionist law abiding citizens can float the idea of civil unrest yet turn the other cheek and claim no responsibility for rolling the snowballs that they claim others will throw.”

    Spot on. Just saw the grand wizard there on UTV doing everything except wink into the camera when asked if he was trying to up the ante with his latest stunt. Meanwhile Cynic2 has waded in to suggest that the Orange Order simply disregards any law that it deems inconvenient. Genius.

    The days where unionists can simply do what they want and to hell with the other lot are over. They’re going to learn that one way or another.

  • cynic2

    “Meanwhile Cynic2 has waded in to suggest that the Orange Order simply disregards any law that it deems inconvenient. Genius.”

    Do read the post and stop imagining. When I say that this is what they might do but i sincerely hope they don’t that is what i mean. The comments made today are worrying because they are reminiscent of pre Drumcree – especially that line that until the lodges get home the parade aint over.

    I hope it is bluster and that behind the scenes there is some cunning political plan to keep it of the streets but I doubt it

    The issue with the Parades Commission is also not my suggestion. This year in the flegs dispute the OO and Loyalism suddenly woke up and realised the gap in the Public Processions Order. If they ignore the PC it ceases to exist. yes a;ll their parade are illegal and they may be prosecuted ….but that they may see a s preferable to being banned

  • ForkHandles

    Morph, The whites against blacks example is to show that it is two groups where the problem is just hatred. The example should be removed enough from NI society that people could take an objective look at what is going on. While the KKK have obviously attacked and killed many black people the OO are just a protestant organization. They do themselves no favours by reacting in a way that may cause public disorder of course. But they don’t organize attacks and so on. To make a comparison with the KKK that actively have killed and so on only shows a person’s own hatred. You want to demonize by exaggerating because you hate the group. Try not to hate. Just look at whats going on.

    Tacpers, I agree that a person or organization that is inciting hatred of other religions or races etc is most definitely not an innocent party. It is entirely right that residents object to such a procession in their neighborhood. So for OO parades they should not be allowed if there is aggressive sectarian behavior from them or sectarian murderers take part or there are flags supporting them and so on. But if a procession has tidied itself up and is decent then there is no reason that it should be stopped from occurring just because the residents have a hatred of people from that religion. Do you agree with tolerance of other traditions? I assume that is somewhere in Republican beliefs?

    The point is that the motivation of residents is purely because they hate protestants. This is as unacceptable in western society as hating people because of their race. I’ve travelled all over the world and there are processions and events through cities from minority racial and religious communities. Its called mutual respect and freedom. The idea that no one from another religion can walk along a public street where most people are from a different religion would seem disgusting and barbaric to most of the world.

    In 2013 people in NI really need to take a look at their motivation of objecting and see if they have a valid reason or if it is just down to their very backward hatreds. Participants in public processions need to look at their behavior and consider if people from other religions would want to view their behavior in their area. Its not rocket science to see that an acceptable public event can take place without hatred.

  • cynic2

    Its all racist but none of us want to admit that because its too unsettling. We are comfortable in our grievances

  • Morpheus

    Racist? Remind me, what races are involved again?

    ForkHandles, please save me the psychobabble BS. I took your ludicrous comment (“think of it as whites forcing blacks out of an area because they hate blacks and it should be pretty clear who is in the wrong”) and cast it in a different light so you would get an different perspective on the situation.

  • DC

    I guess with it being the 11th Night no better time to remember all those lost in keeping the link with Britain.

    Thanks to all those who gave their lives to keep up the British link and British subvention and in doing so helped to both limit emigration and fight impoverishment in Northern Ireland.

    Time to reflect with this song:

  • Neil

    Not hitting the boney tonight DC?

  • DC

    No i am holding a protest against the parades commission in the house – involving alcohol. that’ll teach them!

  • Neil

    🙂

  • DC

    The protest will of course continue tomorrow, when i intend to lie in bed all day, that’ll be the death knell. The PC no more.

    You’ll see! Don’t doubt!

  • Neil

    Funny thing is you may even be right. Doubtful but possible.

  • Comrade Stalin

    sonofstrongbow,

    very little for me to disagree with in your last contribution, strangely enough.

    Both sides are territorial. I reject the idea that a group of people should be able to simply band together and say who may or may not pass in “their” area, as it is the essence of apartheid. And, without intending to introduce whataboutery into it, the territorialism is not restricted to nationalists. There was traffic disruption in the late afternoon today when the loyalist illegally closed Broadway roundabout by placing a children’s bouncy castle on it. The attitude is, it’s our area and we should be allowed to do what we want. This same mentality justifies the bonfires.

    But in the longer term I look forward to a 12th which is traditional as is possible for the participants and where the residents of whatever neighbourhood feel that they have been at least asked to buy in to the event. I think that is both realistic and within the realms of possibility, maybe even in Ardoyne.

  • ForkHandles

    Ah Morphy, you’re still not getting the idea of stepping back and looking at what is going on with an objective eye. If I was a Buddhist in India and I lived in a Muslim area and I wanted to have a procession from one temple to another. Should I be able to do that through streets where the population is mostly Muslim? Most people on slugger are reasonably intelligent and can and are willing to discuss the real issues. If you just pick up on some words someone has said and just aim to raise more questions in an effort to misdirect, then it usually just makes you look silly and stupid. But oh well….sigh… Yeah the races are all whiteys. Now do you feel intelligent? Have you achieved your objective to divert attention away from the hatred of protestants that everyone knows is the motivation behind residents objections? Come on, make a really good argument to support intolerance towards other religions. The western world would like to hear it 🙂

  • cynic2

    Morpheus

    If you don’t this it racist just read the statements from both sides. They see themselves as racially different groups. By denying that you are breaching their Human Right to hate each other – but its still racist

    Have a read as the Ardoyne whatsits collective (dissident branch) press release and then dare to deny it again

  • cynic2

    “Both sides are territorial. ”

    Like dogs pissing on trees

  • cynic2

    “i intend to lie in bed all day,”

    ….. be very careful. The maternity ward are always crowded in mid April …….

    The Twelfth and Buckfast work their magic

  • goalsboyce

    Instead of marching past Ardoyne why don’t they take a different route into the Silverstream Highfield area on up the Crumlin Road from Ballysillian which would take them into the Woodvale Glencairn area. There may not be a road? but certainly access and if a road needs to be built then so be it. A small price to pay and save us from this nonsense every year.

  • ForkHandles

    Maybe they feel they’re being persecuted because of their religion and denied freedom of assembly. Maybe they feel being told where you can and can’t go because of your religion is wrong.

  • Morpheus

    The Sash played outside St Patrick’s Church according to The Nolan Show…classy

  • SK

    Everyone knows that ‘residents’ are just people who are filled with hatred towards protestants

    I suggest you peruse through the comments sections in the Daily Mail and Spectator websites today. The right-wing Brits are not impressed at all with what passes as ‘culture’ in Loyal Ulster.

    Does that mean Tunbridge Wells must hate Prods too?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Maybe they feel they’re being persecuted because of their religion and denied freedom of assembly. Maybe they feel being told where you can and can’t go because of your religion is wrong.

    Yeah. And Bobby Sands was jailed because he was a Catholic.

  • tacapall

    “Do you agree with tolerance of other traditions? I assume that is somewhere in Republican beliefs”

    Forkhandles thats what the orange on the tricolour is for and im the type of republican that would defend the traditions and rights of those who that colour represents. I understand your misconception that all those opposed to Orange order parades simply hate protestants or their culture but I can assure you that is far from the truth. I personally have no problems with Orange Order parades I was born and bred near Carsile Circus, I grew up watching and enjoying many of them. I have friends in loyalist bands and I know for a fact not all loyalist bands are either sectarian bigots or controlled by loyalist paramilitaries and I understand the talent and rivalry between bands that sometimes inevitably leads to the playing to the gallery of the sectarian, bigoted, insensitive music like that which happened outside St Patricks church. No-one not even yourself can deny that an underbelly within the Orange Order deliberately set out on parades year after year, parade after parade to insult, intimidate and belittle nationalist residents and the faith they believe in. That cannot and will not be tolerated in a normal society, im not religious but just like I would defend the rights of those that are represented by the Orange I would also defend the rights of those represented by the green in that they have the same right to object to this type of behaviour as much as Orangemen have a right to parade.

  • Tapacall[6.03]
    ‘Is this the type of consequences that’s being threatened by some unionists and loyalists?’
    Sounds like that’s what Dodds in NIQuestions on Wednesday was flagging up and using the euphemism ‘get into difficulties’ in other words OR ELSE.

  • tacapall

    Of course your right Daniel, Deputy Dawds is rolling snowballs for others to throw, like all DUP politicians – Armchair generals, willing to fight to the last drop of everyone elses blood. He is at odds with what his party leader is preaching but thats not unusual for a unionist politician who’s waiting in the wings for a leadership bid or playing to his own gallery of bigots who elect him into office, they showed their respect for the parishioners of St Patricks church more than once again today. If there is a stand off and crowds gather, violence will be inevitable, the combined military loyalist command, supported by those loyal orange order members will no doubt engage with the enemy, innocent school children, innocent taxi drivers, police officers, generally anyone or anything that looks like catholic or Irish.

  • Comrade Stalin

    There are certainly splits internally in the DUP; there have been for years but Robinson has been successful so far in using carrots and sticks to hold it together.

    But politics has changed to the extent that politicians stuck in Westminster exercise much less influence than ever before. How often do we hear about Ian Paisley Jnr or David Simpson ? Or Jim Shannon ?This is the real reason why people like Sammy Wilson and Gregory Campbell have resisted resigning their Assembly seats. Dodds is not, currently, well-placed to mount a leadership challenge on the DUP. Sammy Wilson on the other hand is, and he seems to command respect from across the party. It would surprise me if Sammy’s planned decampment to Westminister – and from there to relative obscurity behind Nigel Dodds – goes ahead, and if it doesn’t I’d suggest it’s the death knell for Robinson’s leadership.

  • Morpheus

    CS

    Do you think that Jonathan Bell has a chance? I mean he has the smarminess of a career-politician down to a T. Plus he has the mysterious Caleb Foundation behind him

  • ForkHandles

    Tacapall, good reply. I also mentioned that the same behaviour is unacceptable, and I think most people would agree. Residents are entirely justified to object to an event on that basis. The question is what happens when those things are removed? What is left is discrimination based on residents hatred of protestants. It’s not everyone though, in Derry they can tolerate events by people from a minority group. I hope people in NI can be a bit more reasonable and learn tolerance.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I know next to nothing about what is really going on in the DUP, so it’s very much a case of being on the outside looking in. But in the Belfast Telegraph yesterday there was an article speculating on the apparent differences on emphasis on the part of Peter Robinson, Nigel Dodds and Sammy Wilson.

  • Comrade Stalin

    FH,

    What is left is discrimination based on residents hatred of protestants.

    Why do you keep saying that ? If they hate anyone it’s the people marching, which is not the same thing.

  • tacapall

    Comrade I do see a challenge coming Peter Robinsons way in the not too distant future, the dogs of unionism/loyalism are growling at Robinsons feet and I fear he will not survive, especially when those same politicians that are rolling the snowballs attempt to walk hand in hand up the Crumlin road later today.

    Just seen an enormous amount of police jeeps, water canons heading towards Clifton street now.

  • DC

    Just seen an enormous amount of police jeeps, water canons heading towards Clifton street now.

    I wonder if we will get to see Ulster Press Centre, hope he brought his camera with him.