Orders find solution to #Twelfth restrictions at #Ardoyne

The optics of this are pretty ridiculous. The BBC are reporting the solution to the restriction on passing Ardoyne by 4 pm as:

Members of three Orange lodges will be ferried across Belfast by bus to meet a 16:00 BST deadline for passing the flashpoint Catholic area of Ardoyne.

Orangemen say it’s a peaceful solution to allow them to complete their return parade from the main celebrations to their Orange halls in north Belfast.

Details have not yet been announced but the BBC understands the solution involves the use of at least one bus.

A group will leave the main celebration and travel to the Woodvale Road.

Obviously, any peaceful solutions should be praised.

But, if I was the Orange Order, why the hell would I want to be bussed through parts of the city that are covered in flags and bunting, where there is potential for a crowd and even a party atmosphere and a memorable evening (in a good way), to make the really narrow point of getting to the one interface on the route where significant problems arise every single year?

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  • The Lodger

    andnowhat,

    I’m not sure what the point of your whataboutery is unless you are trying to stifle the debate with pointless spam.

  • The Lodger

    “Er no the GAA got the same grants as football and rugby, nothing to do with culture. But we could of course cut a deal – Cut the amount of parades. cut the amount of bonfires and pay your own policing costs just like football clubs.”

    Tapacall,

    I had a sneaking supicion that you would be less apt to call for the millions of pounds of funding which goes to the GAA to be cut than trying to claim that you are being put out by paying taxes which are used to clear up bonfires etc. Interesting that you feel that the GAA has nothing to do with culture. There are many who would agree with you.

    “The usual excuse from someone who knows fk all. Those middle aged “eejits” as you call them robbed banks and along with the UDA and UVF imported hundreds of weapons into this country that included RPGs and their warheads. Some of those weapons were used to murder innocent people. Why do you think those middle aged eejits would want those weapons for and does not planning to murder or injure someone actually carry the same sentence as actually carrying it out. But that wouldn’t be terrorism to you would it ?”

    Your knowledge of the Third Force must be pretty extensive if you have evidence that they did these things. Can you produce it please?

    Before you make a fool of yourself by producing endless links about Ulster resistance can I just point out that they were totally seperate and unrelated organisations, and that as soon as there were hints that they were involved in criminality the DUP cut all links with them.

    Contrast that with Sinn fein who openly boasted of and revelled in some of the most disgusting IRA murders of the Troubles.

  • galloglaigh

    Nothing snide about it. It’s there in black and white. You’re justifying sectarian bigotry, by paralleling sectarian bigotry from republicans!

  • The Lodger

    “Nothing snide about it. It’s there in black and white. You’re justifying sectarian bigotry, by paralleling sectarian bigotry from republicans!”

    galloglaigh,

    Perhaps you could take a few moments to explain where and how I am ‘justifying sectarian bigotry’?

  • andnowwhat

    The lodger

    You tried to say that the costs of parading are mostly down to opposition by nationalist but I linked a video from Scotland that showed a very, very large and costly police presence.

    I’d say, nice try but it wasn’t even close

  • The Lodger

    andnowhat,

    My apologies. I was under the impression that we were discussing the parading issue in Northern Ireland.

  • tacapall

    The GAA is just a sporting organisation just like football and rugby they all get government grants are you saying football or rugby is “culture”

    Here ya go. Ulster Resistance

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Resistance

    The group collaborated with the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) and the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) to procure arms. In June 1987 the UVF stole more than £300,000 from the Northern Bank in Portadown. The money was used to buy 206 Vz. 58 assault rifles, 94 Browning 9mm pistols, 4 RPG-7 rocket launchers and 62 warheads, 450 RGD-5 grenades and 30,000 rounds of ammunition which arrived at Belfast docks from Lebanon in December 1987. [4] The weapons were then transported to a farm between Armagh and Portadown, to await collection by the three groups. [5]

    On 8 January 1988 as they attempted to transport their share of the weapons from Portadown to Belfast in a convoy of three cars, the UDA’s share was intercepted at a Royal Ulster Constabulary checkpoint. 61 assault rifles, 30 Brownings, 150 grenades and over 11,000 rounds of ammunition were seized and three UDA men arrested. Davy Payne, the UDA’s North Belfast Brigadier was sentenced to 19 years in prison and the two others to 14 years each. [6] A UR member, Noel Little, a former Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) soldier and the Armagh chairman of the Ulster Clubs was arrested in connection with the find under the Prevention of Terrorism Act but released without charge.

    Part of the UVF’s share of the weapons was among weapons recovered in February 1988. A RPG7 rocket launcher with 26 warheads, 38 assault rifles, 15 Brownings, 100 grenades and 40,000 rounds of ammunition were found following searches in the Upper Crumlin Road area of North Belfast.[7]

    In November 1988 part of the Ulster Resistance share of the weapons was uncovered in police searches at a number of locations in County Armagh around Markethill, Hamiltonsbawn and in Armagh itself. Among the items recovered was a RPG7 rocket launcher and 5 warheads, 3 assault rifles, a Browning pistol, 10 grenades, 12,000 rounds of ammunition and combat equipment.[8] Also discovered in the arms caches were parts of a Javelin surface-to-air missile and a number of Ulster Resistance red berets.[9]

    In September 1989 a 33 year old man from Poyntzpass and a 35 year old man from Tandragee were jailed to 9 years and 6 years respectively for storing and moving weapons and explosives on behalf of UR.[10] In January 1990 a 32 year old former member of the UDR from Richill was jailed for 12 years for possessing UR arms and explosives.[11]

    The DUP subsequently claimed that they had severed links with the group in 1987.

    By the way –

    Three members of the group, Noel Little, previously arrested in connection with the 1987 importation of arms, James King, a Free Presbyterian from Killyleagh, County Down and Samuel Quinn, a sergeant in the Newtownards Territorial Army were arrested at the Hilton Hotel, Paris on 21 April 1989 along with a diplomat from South Africa, Daniel Storm and an American arms dealer, Douglas Bernhart, leading to claims that they were attempting to procure arms in return for missile technology from Short Brothers. The “Paris Three” were charged with arms trafficking and associating with criminals involved in terrorist activities. They were convicted in October 1991 after more than two years on remand. They received suspended sentences and fines ranging from £2,000 to £5,000.

    Does Peter Robinson and the DUP still have links with Noel Little ? Is a family member of Noel Little not one of the DUP’s special advisers ?

  • andnowwhat

    The Lodger

    Read my last post. I disproved your point on costs of parading

  • andnowwhat

    Tacapall

    I well remember Gerry Kelly shutting the DUP up quickly when he asked them what they did with the arms they had got. It couldn’t have been much more than a year ago

  • Great argument going on here guys.
    Please remember that “Terrorist” is a relative term. Usually best viewed with the benefit of a little time having passed
    http://bangordub.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/south-tipp-1919-2/
    Here’s my take for what it’s worth

  • andnowwhat [2.11pm] The NL owner , as you most likely already know, set up UTV back in ’59, and they’re as close now, judging from the criticism in the paper today of the BBC coverage of the ardoyne [the editor was clearly fuming], and the two organs similar disinterest in the Chapel story.

  • galloglaigh

    anw

    That was Hearts and Minds. Gerry Kelly v Nelson McCauseland. The latter near had Duck’s Disease when the former came out with it!

    I always enjoy the ‘we severed links’ claim from the DUP. It reminds me of Martin McGuinness’ claim that he left the IRA in 1974, and Gerry Adams’ claim the he was never in the IRA… 🙂

    As they say in Norn Iron ‘aye dead on hi’!

  • andnowwhat

    Yep galloglaigh, that may have been it but I’m pretty sure Gerry did it in the Assembly also

  • Alias

    “Loyalism is a political standpoint, not a cultural one.” – andnowwhat

    Culture is a product of a group’s self-determination, not subject to the approval or veto of outsiders. Your tribe’s attempt to censor loyalist/protestant culture is as counterproductive in the historical sense as British attempts to censor Irish culture. It makes it stronger, not weaker. The political aspect of the Orange culture is about asserting a set of religious, civil and political rights against those entities that are seen as undermining those rights. They would not need to be asserted if they were not seen as being challenged.

    These is a context there where the OO needs these sham fights, needs these people who try to oppose protestant culture and belief, because without them it becomes little more significant than a festival organiser. In reality, that is all it can be without folks like you because the rights it claims are already enshrined in constitutional and treaty law and it is fundamentally redundant as a political organisation.

    It is none of your business to pronounce upon the value of loyalist/protestant culture since that is properly a matter for that group to determine.

    What I find interesting is the proxy war over territory between the two tribes, as if the Battle of the Boyne was being faught again in each locality. I can’t see why the OO would want to replay that war unless thry don’t really grasp that they were on the winning side back then and in 1998.

    At any rate, there were hundreds of parades that properly reflect the festival aspect of the modern OO. Why you should pick out one parade that was the exception that proved the rule and duly rant about the OO, expressing your hatred of those hundreds of thousands loyalists/protestants and their families who support it and who enjoyed the day, while ignoring the hundreds of parades that disprove your claims, is a question where the answer might reveal more about you than the OO. But then again, I’m sure it’s only the other tribe that can be bigoted…

  • Alias

    Incidentally, I think it was ‘The Lodger’ who claimed that some nationalists are using their hatred of the OO as a cover to vent their hatred of unionists because it is seen as acceptable to either society or to themselves to do the former but not to do the latter (or some similar argument, sorry but I can’t find the post).

    I think that is worth exploring, since the use of covert proxies can often explain why minor things become invested with more important than they actually merit. The self-delusion aspect is worth exploring because we had a proxy war on protestants that masqueraded as a war on the British state by those who are now ministers of the British state, with those sectarian thugs using the label of republican to disguise their actual condition from themselves and others.

  • ‘wherever you please, whenever you please’
    tapacall. The ‘wherever’ and ‘whenever’ was lost at Drumcree for good, and the ‘whenever’ bit, is now lost at ardoyne as well as the parades commision will insist on any ardoyne marching next year will be on their terms. Nigel Dodds face was a picture.

  • The Lodger

    Tapacall,

    Just in case you missed it the first time.

    “Before you make a fool of yourself by producing endless links about Ulster resistance can I just point out that they were totally seperate and unrelated organisations, and that as soon as there were hints that they were involved in criminality the DUP cut all links with them.”

  • The Lodger

    “The Lodger

    Read my last post. I disproved your point on costs of parading”

    andnowhat,

    Er, no you didn’t. You diverted yourself off to Scotland.

  • The Lodger

    “Incidentally, I think it was ‘The Lodger’ who claimed that some nationalists are using their hatred of the OO as a cover to vent their hatred of unionists because it is seen as acceptable to either society or to themselves to do the former but not to do the latter (or some similar argument, sorry but I can’t find the post).”

    Alias,

    It was indeed and I absolutely stand by that statement. Speak to a republican and he will tell you that he doesn’t hate Protestants, but he does hate the OO, the police, the army, people who serve the police or support them in any way etc, etc, etc. In other words he hates 99.9% of Protestants, but not because they are Protestants per se.

    It is all very crudely used as cover for blatant sectarian hatred, but that is something they refuse to admit because, you’ve guessed it, they hate Protestants for their sectarianism.

    The OO is a very easy target for them to vent their hatred on now post ceasefire when they don’t have the RUC and UDR etc to hate. It is the ‘acceptable’ face of republican sectarianism even though it flies directly in the face of the logic behind the flag that they profess loyalty to.

  • The Lodger

    “the ‘whenever’ bit, is now lost at ardoyne as well as the parades commision will insist on any ardoyne marching next year will be on their terms.”

    danielsmoran,

    I doubt that very much indeed. The parades commission has repeatedly rewarded the side which can produce the greatest violence. In Portadown there is no threat of violence from loyalists in the Drumcree area. North Belfast is a very different prospect.

  • andnowwhat

    The lodger.

    You said that the costs of policing was down to nationalist opposition to parades.

    I posted a video that showed a massive police presence (and intervention) in Glasgow.

    Now, this was not Ardoyne.

    This was not the lower Ormeau Road.

    This was not the Grarvaghy Road.

    The video was in a different country, on a different island.

    (sorry for the spacing folks. Lodger clearly need the space to absorb points)

  • The Lodger

    andnowhat,

    I don’t see what relevance policing tactics in Glasgow have to do with a disussion on policing orange parades in Northern Ireland. A much better example would have been Tobermore where there were about twelve officers present in a village packed with thousands of marchers and spectators.

  • Republic of Connaught

    Actually, Lodger, I’d say what happens in Scotland is very relevant.

    The Orange Order want to parade in Dublin, I believe. They claim their Scots Irish identity is sacred to them. I think it’s time the Irish government and Scottish executive had some joined up thinking on how to deal with the Orange Order in the 21st century. If Dublin and Edinburgh come to a common “Scots-Irish” consensus on how to deal with parades, then the wails of discrimination by the OO won’t hold much water.

  • Lodger. That shows that , had the DUP been able to prevent stories being aired about UR, they would have been happy to carry on with them. Their swift disowning of the group, shows they wanted the link kept quiet.

  • The Lodger

    “If Dublin and Edinburgh come to a common “Scots-Irish” consensus on how to deal with parades, then the wails of discrimination by the OO won’t hold much water.”

    ROC,

    I wonder if you would be so fond of that concensus if it involved allowing the parades to proceed unhindered?

  • The Lodger

    “Lodger. That shows that , had the DUP been able to prevent stories being aired about UR, they would have been happy to carry on with them. Their swift disowning of the group, shows they wanted the link kept quiet.”

    danielsmoran,

    I don’t see your logic. The DUP were aligned with Ulster resistance until they became aware that they were involved in criminality. When they became aware of that criminality they publicly disassociated themselves from UR. That stands in stark contrast to SF who embraced PIRA criminality and boasted about their murders etc.

  • PeterBrown

    RoC

    Wouldn’t it be ironic if dissidents could march to the City Hall in Belfast but the Order could not march in Edinburgh or Dublin? Time for a new Civil Rights movement with government discrimination in job allocation and banning of peaceful marches….

  • Republic of Connaught

    Lodger,

    Of all the hundreds/thousands of Orange parades in Ulster every single year, how many exactly are hindered? I’d say when 98 per cent of your parades are allowed to proceed as desired then you won’t get much sympathy if a few can’t. Unless you have some weird superiority complex that makes you think every single parade should go exactly where Orangemen want irrespective of anyone else’s view?

    Peter,

    I can’t personally see why Orangemen from the south can’t march in Dublin in the near future. They’re from the Republic and always behave with dignity in their Donegal parade. Burning tricolours wouldn’t be their thing.

    Northern Ireland Orangemen, of course, want no part of the southern state and probably don’t even have Irish passports. So I’d see no reason for them to be involved in any parade in Dublin. It should only be for Orangemen who are part of the Republic.

  • Lodger 16th July. Yes, I see what I’ve done there. I wasn’t living here in the 80s so haven’t picked up accurately on the DUP ivolvement with UR.

  • Reader

    Republic of Connaught: Northern Ireland Orangemen, of course, want no part of the southern state and probably don’t even have Irish passports. So I’d see no reason for them to be involved in any parade in Dublin. It should only be for Orangemen who are part of the Republic.
    Should all parades, marches and protests in Dublin be restricted to Irish passport holders, or is this a specific restriction you would like to see imposed just to deal with possible unionists?

  • Republic of Connaught

    Reader,

    It should be restricted to Orangemen resident in the Republic whether they have an Irish or British passport.

    Why should the Irish taxpayer have to pay for policing Orangemen coming down from NI who contribute nothing to the state?

  • Reader

    Republic of Connaught: Why should the Irish taxpayer have to pay for policing Orangemen coming down from NI who contribute nothing to the state?
    Because they are Irish, belonging to an all Ireland organisation, and most taxpayers aren’t as partitionist as you. And it’s really, really cheap compared with the costs of an actual United Ireland.
    How do you feel about the costs of policing visiting GAA fans? (horse racing, golf, rugby…)

  • Republic of Connaught

    Reader,

    We’ve been incessantly told by northern unionists not to put labels on people they don’t put on themseves. So saying they’re Irish doesn’t seem appropriate if they don’t say it themselves.

    Is it about the Orange Order being allowed to march in Dublin or is it about six county unionists being allowed to wave Union Jacks on O’Connell street and then run back up north and burn a few tricolours in bonfires?

    You’re putting the cart before the horse, Reader. When the country is united an all Ireland Orange parade would march in Dublin. For now we live in a partitioned Ireland, and those who choose to perpetuate that partition will have to accept they aren’t part of the Republic and can’t expect the same consideration as Orangemen who are.

  • The Lodger

    “Of all the hundreds/thousands of Orange parades in Ulster every single year, how many exactly are hindered?”

    ROC,

    Just as many as republicans feel they can deal with. When they manage to get one banned or rerouted then they simply shift their efforts onto another. That is one of the main reasons why the OO is refusing to back down on the Crumlin Road.

    Republican dissidents are not targetting that parade because it keeps them awake at night thinking about it. They are targetting it because it gives their drones an impetus for violence and they hope to encourage loyalists to carry out violence as well.

    Their intention is to create a spiral of violence which will lead to killings which they can attempt to justify as self defence. Just as that homicidal freak McKee did at St Matthew’s Chapel in 1970.

    Indeed some of the key players involved are the children of those who were directly involved then. So much for evolution.

  • Submariner

    The Lodger (profile) 17 July 2012 at 8:55 pm
    “Of all the hundreds/thousands of Orange parades in Ulster every single year, how many exactly are hindered?”

    ROC,

    Just as many as republicans feel they can deal with. When they manage to get one banned or rerouted then they simply shift their efforts onto another. That is one of the main reasons why the OO is refusing to back down on the Crumlin Road.

    Republican dissidents are not targetting that parade because it keeps them awake at night thinking about it. They are targetting it because it gives their drones an impetus for violence and they hope to encourage loyalists to carry out violence as well.

    Their intention is to create a spiral of violence which will lead to killings which they can attempt to justify as self defence. Just as that homicidal freak McKee did at St Matthew’s Chapel in 1970.

    Indeed some of the key players involved are the children of those who were directly involved then. So much for evolution.

    LOL ALF i knew it was you

  • Republic of Connaught

    The solution is pretty simply really, Lodger.

    The Catholics should simply ignore Orange Parades and the Protestants should not bother themselves going down areas where people spit and shout obsenities at them 🙂

  • Reader

    Republic of Connaught: We’ve been incessantly told by northern unionists not to put labels on people they don’t put on themseves
    The title of the OO is “The Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland”. Anyway, when did you ever stop being true to your own perspective?
    Republic of Connaught: Is it about the Orange Order being allowed to march in Dublin or is it about six county unionists being allowed to wave Union Jacks on O’Connell street and then run back up north and burn a few tricolours in bonfires?
    Instead of presuming they are all guilty of flag burning, how about presuming that some of them might not be, and treat them right? Anyway, what’s so bad about Union Flags on O’Connell Street every now and then? It’s not as though you expect even the Dubs to be either intimidated or won over to the union.

  • Republic of Connaught

    And the name of this island is Ireland. But we have been told ad nauseum by many in the north east they are British and not Irish. So eventually, Reader, you get to the stage you just don’t care.

    I have no doubt many within the OO are ordinary, decent gentleman respecting their own family tradition. The problem they have is they don’t seem to be able to stamp out the influence of many knuckledraggers who continually shame their organisation with overt sectarianism.

    As for union jacks on O’Connell street, there’s no reason whatsoever Orangemen from Dublin, Leitrim, Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan etc.. can’t bring whatever banners they want.