See that #fleg in Enniskillen? Well, now you don’t…

Now relax… The St George’s flag still flies over Enniskillen Castle as a reference to two former British regiments raised in the town’s defence in 1689. Can’t say I’d ever noticed before, but apparently there’s a row brewing over it’s removal from a leaflet for the G8 Summit… Here’s the council’s reasoning…

“The design team gave long and detailed consideration to the content and design of the leaflet. In relation to any decision around the inclusion of flags, the design team was mindful of the fact that the flags of the eight countries participating in the G8 Summit plus the flags of the European Commission, the European Council and the Republic of Ireland would all need to be portrayed. Consequently, it was decided that no flags would be included within the leaflet and the document is consistent in that regard.

“The draft document was discussed at the Development Committee meeting on Monday 13 May 2013. Some amendments were suggested at that meeting but there were no concerns raised in connection with the absence of flags,” she said.

, , , ,

  • Morpheus

    So they’ve gone for neutrality – what’s wrong with that? It went through the correct channels, no concerns raised – what’s wrong with that?

    On a day when Jimmy Cricket’s Wellies were stolen could we not focus on that?

  • Mick Fealty

    It was close toss up, between that, the verbal ruck between Sheamus Greene and Bernie Swift and Tom Elliott giving off about GAA winning some EU prize no one has ever heard of…

    For such a gorgeous county, they don’t half go at it..

  • Morpheus

    Tom Elliot giving off – SOMEONE ALERT THE VILLAGE ELDERS!

  • GEF

    The reason behind the council’s decision to remove this flag is that Fermanagh District Council has a Nationalist majority (23 seats 10 unionist and 13 nationalist).

  • Morpheus

    I’m pretty sure the Council’s decision is above – “we can’t fit ’em all in so we decided it was best to fit none of ’em in”. I don’t think there’s any Machiavellian conspiracy here – unless you want to make it into one.

    But anyway, Jimmy’s Wellies eh?

  • Mick Fealty

    It’s political, not Machiavellian…

  • Mick Fealty

    Though it hardly ties in with Martin’s address in Belfast this morning (http://goo.gl/OgbWC):

    What does respect for the different political identities, ethos or allegiances in this city mean for me as an Irish republican.

    Do I respect the British identity? Yes I do. A year ago I met with and welcomed Queen Elizabeth to Belfast. I hoped then that this small gesture would offer some assurance to unionists. Can I do more? Yes, of course I can.

    Like the ending of conflict, accommodation will not be achieved on a winners and losers basis. Nor will it be achieved without leadership, without action.

    Or in other words, “it is a very complicated thing that you cannot read into any of my or my party’s actions, except the ones I mention in this speech…”

  • sonofstrongbow

    Sinn Fein talk the talk but can’t seem to bring themselves to walk the walk (indeed they have big problems with others ‘walking’ as well 😉 )

    The flag over Enniskillen Castle is historic. Expect the Shinners to get out the grinders and start taking out all those ‘offensive’ crests and mouldings on buildings, postboxes etc

  • RegisterForThisSite

    Interesting to see if the fleg protests are genuine or just to annoy nationalists, if genuine loyalists should be out in force wrapped in their cheap Chinese manufactured flags over this, should raise a few eyebrows at the G8.

    Mick, in other words what MMcG is saying is that the DUP were elected by unionists on the promise of “a battle a day” SF has disappointed by refusing to play. So while you and others are throwing gibes that they should be doing more for ex-prisoners, Irish language etc. it ain’t going to happen at the moment as it would give you and others what they want a circus of ‘a battle a day’ in the future all this can be dealt with but only when people who want to see both sides baiting each other are in the nursing home and people who want to see all these issues resolved (genuinely) are at the fore.

  • Morpheus

    I’ll hand it to you Mick, you took a total non-story and managed to get people to comment on it. I salute you. 🙂

  • Old Mortality

    “The design team gave long and detailed consideration to the content and design of the leaflet. In relation to any decision around the inclusion of flags, the design team was mindful of the fact that the flags of the eight countries participating in the G8 Summit plus the flags of the European Commission, the European Council and the Republic of Ireland would all need to be portrayed.’

    I’m baffled by this. Why would you need all those flags on a single leaflet that’s intendedt o provide information to locals? It looks as if SF simply took exception to the flag and this preposterous explanation was concocted.

  • cynic2

    Morpheus

    I have to agree. Besides the attempted airbrushing of 2500 murders this is small beer for SF

  • Skinner

    Mick – have you a link to the history behind the flying of the St George’s flag there?

  • Mick Fealty

    The nearest to an explanation I can find is this, (though it actually doesn’t explain it): http://goo.gl/7gpZT.

    The two ‘historic’ regiments (the Inniskilling Fusiliers and Dragoons) are marked on wikipedia as first being raised under the Kingdom of Ireland, so maybe it’s some kind of early tribute to the suzerain of England.

    I can see why people might start to get tetchy about it…

    Morph,

    Well, it’s the best I could do with what we’re given today. I gave you list of my choices for today (God Bless the Impartial Reporter…)

    I’ve a piece brewing on abortion in the south, but you damned partitionists rarely bite on southern politics here… 😉

  • Morpheus

    It is a slow news day, I’ll give you that 🙂

    Don’t take this the wrong way Mick but have Slugger got any plans to allow the users to submit topics for discussion, obviously watched over by the eye-in-the-sky which is your kind self? It will take the strain off you finding all these anti-SF and anti-SDLP threads 🙂

  • Morpheus

    “…but you damned partitionists rarely bite on southern politics here”

    You know why that is Mick? Because we know feck all about it. Have I ever mentioned my idea for a report I think should be done?

  • sonofstrongbow

    Mick,

    You could have noted the Chief Constable attending a Sinn Fein gathering at the Europa in Belfast (he sneaked in the back door in civvies – didn’t want to scare the Shinner horses by turning up in uniform I expect, or perhaps it’s part the ‘neutral’ space thingamajig).

    The gang were meeting as part of the ‘Protestant Outreach’ [sic] guff – is Matt Baggott a Prod?

    Strangely the CC wasn’t facilitated/bottled the opportunity to mention the impact of the murder of hundreds of police officers on the community whilst in the belly of the beast.

    So a nice cosy day all round then.

  • Ruarai

    the town’s defence in 1689

    Who’s yer man?

    Who was defending what from whom? Dollar says the “threat” was the local population 🙂

  • cynic2

    “didn’t want to scare the Shinner horses by turning up in uniform”

    Health and Safety assessment. In unifrom Baggot could have started a stampede as they all rushed home to check their secret Royal Perogatives

  • Morpheus

    “You could have noted the Chief Constable attending a Sinn Fein gathering at the Europa in Belfast”

    Yeah Mick – how did you miss ‘Police Constable meets Political Party’? 🙂

    I think Jimmy Cricket’s Wellies would’ve been more interesting

  • cynic2

    “It will take the strain off you finding all these anti-SF and anti-SDLP threads”

    Has somebody used some of that empty time in the Chamber to run a ‘Sinn Fein Protection Bill’ to protect the little dears?

    I thought that was the Security Service’s job

    There’s no point having one to protect the Stoops. They eat their political young as the opportunity arises – though there aren’t that many of them under 50

  • cynic2

    ” the impact of the murder of hundreds of police officers on the community ”

    …. why just stop at the Police…..PIRA murdered more Catholics than Police and Army put together but we don’t talk about that now

  • sonofstrongbow

    “Who was defending what from whom? Dollar says the “threat” was the local population 🙂 .”

    Part of the local population at any rate. Most likely that part that showed a particular penchant for murdering others locals in 1641.

  • Part of our “problems” may be that there is no limit in time to whataboutery.

  • sonofstrongbow

    Mr J,

    Context dear boy, context.

    Though I’ll grant you there are many constants flavouring our “”problems””.

    The one uppermost in my mind about 1689 and all that was the default MOPE that sees some nationalists complaining about the other lot reacting violently to violent attacks.

    Thus those within the castle in 1689 are castigated for defending themselves. In a similar vein the RIC and Auxiliaries are deemed rascals for fighting back; and in more recent times the security forces at, for example, Loughgall should have put their hands up when the IRA came to say hello with a big bang and all guns blazing.

    Some nationalists do seem to think it unsporting when the Brits fire back, don’t they?

    Now I’ll accept its somewhat of a chicken and egg situation (if the planters weren’t planted everything in the garden would have been rosy etc), but what’s to be done in the here and now?

    Should some Canadian First Nation guy have cut up rough should the settler have let their throat be cut in some small recompense for their ancestors or kin being on native lands in the first place?

  • WorkInProgress

    How tragic it is that even neutrality is now considered to be offensive.

  • SK

    If archaeologists discovered that some palaeolithic fenian hit a Prod with a bone back in the Flinstone era, SonOfStrongbow would be on to whine about it. (note I avoided using the word “Neanderthal” for fear of prompting another “mongloid”-like breakdown).

    In 1954, unionists introduced the flags and emblems act as a means of reminding nationalists of their place in the pecking order. In 1964, Ian Paisley ordered the police to remove fenian emblems from a private property in Divis Street and the cops- surprise, surprise- duly obliged.

    Perhaps it’s time to pay the piper?

  • I was at the conference until lunchtime. If the PA had been better, and if Martin McGuinness had rambled less, I’d have put up a post so folk could listen to some of the speeches and commentary.

    It was a useful event – though a slight wasted opportunity. The audience was large and diverse – though elected unionism chose to stay away. There were plenty of unionists in the room, but none wearing the badge of a party.

    If the flag protesters outside had asked to come in, I bet they’d have been allowed. McGuinness chose to enter and leave via the front door and took the facile abuse they guldered at him.

    Some interesting questions from the floor. Sectarian doesn’t seem to have a universally understood definition.

    Gary Mason (EBM) asked if republicanism had an insatiable appetite to deal with the past?

    Norman Hamilton (PCI) praised the ongoing contact with Tom Hartley but asked SF to agree to “real and sustained” engagement between SF and Presbyterian church, both public & private.

    Matt Baggott was there and spoke but didn’t say much of substance.

    Martin McGuinness said he didn’t criticise Mike Nesbitt for not attending. Gerry Adams on the other hand was more scathing about the absence of unionism.

    Mentioning his handshake with the Queen, Martin McGuinness wished Prince Philip well in his hospital stay.

    The chocolate muffins and free wifi was appreciated; but the broadcast media disliked the half hour overrun that squeezed edit times to make the lunchtime news bulletins.

  • DC

    A shared future is an erased future.

  • Morpheus

    “A shared future is an erased future.”

    Nice. What does it mean again…?

  • DC

    It means what it says and says what it means and based on the above – it shouldn’t be hard to figure out.

  • cynic2

    A shared future is an erased future……aye let themuns in and before you know it your daughter will be pregnant and the bath be full of coal

  • DC

    no no, much worse – Ian James Parsley with his own weekly opinion column in the News Letter 🙂

    Recurring theme – encouragement to vote to eliminate yourself.

    The idea being if you remove your identity and replace it with nothing then no one will be offended.

    World peace everyone – world peace!

  • aquifer

    Identity schmadentity

    Hope we get some goths and punks along to the G8

    A rainbow flag or two would be nice.

  • Mike the First

    It strikes me that the position given by the council is downright drivel – to put it crudely, palpable bullshit.

    Do they seriously expect anyone with an ounce of intelligence to accept that because there’s a picture of the castle, which would feature a (minuscule) image of a St George’s flag within it, somehow the flags of all the G8 nations would “have to be portrayed”? How does that work?

    Then there’s the bit where they say the EC and Republic of Ireland flags would “have to be portrayed”. Erm…why on earth would that be the case??

    I can’t say I’m particularly bothered about this spot of airbrushing, but the attempt to bullshit the public by Fermanagh District Council really does take the biscuit.

  • GEF

    Unlike the Belfast City Council Union flag issue At least G8 is over in one week and that will be the end of it, and the leaflets will be all forgotten. The St George’s flag will still be flying over Enniskillen Castle which will please the members of the local Orange Order as they are the the ones most interested in the 1689/90 “Battle of the Boyne” history. Unless of course the 13 nationalists ( mostly SF) on FDC have anything else up their devious little sleeves to aggravate Tom Campbell and Unionists of Fermanagh and South Tyrone.

  • Morpheus

    No, you’re all absolutely correct, those pesky kids at SF’s World Media Manipulation Centre thought the best way to get in Unionist’s faces was to come up with a Machiavellian scheme regarding a G8 marketing brochure for Enniskillen Castle. The fact that it went through the Development Committee and no concerns were raised is totally irrelevant – this is all about SF and their Global conquest to rewrite history

  • Republic of Connaught

    Too right they took the flag down. Don’t want foreign visitors to think they’re in England rather than beautiful Ireland.

    The history of Enniskillen will always be there in the history books. It’s not going anywhere. The idea that the English flag should be flying there 365 days a year in a nationalist county is ridiculous anyway and should be changed permanently.

  • grandimarkey

    A St George’s flag 365 days a year? That’s a bizarre fact I was completely unaware of. Both the regiments in question, the 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons and the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers who were raised in 1689 were/are Irish regiments, seems odd to salute them with the English flag.

    Imagine trying to fly a St George’s flag 365 days a year in any of the historic castles in Scotland or Wales for their home-grown regiments (or for any reason for that matter), I doubt you’d get 1 day let alone 365.

  • GEF

    What if this King Billy or “Prince of Orange” fleg was put up in its place, would the shinners be any happier?

    http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=flag+of+the+prince+of+orange&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ei=MxSzUYTpJc3y0gWukoGYAw&ved=0CCoQsAQ

  • SK

    Why not just urinate around the perimeter of the castle and be done with it GEF?

    The sooner unionists evolve beyond this need to mark their territory at every given opportunity, they happier they’ll be.

  • DC

    @mike

    and the motives behind the bullshit Mike?

    If FDC has done something for an apparent ‘good’ reason which is really bullshit – what is the real reason driving this?

  • cynic2

    “The sooner unionists evolve beyond this need to mark their territory at every given opportunity, they happier they’ll be.”

    you have obviously never been to North or West Belfast festooned in Irish Flags or to South Down, Arrmagh and Tyrone where the roadsides are littered with memorials to Volunteers killed by the evil Brits while on their way to murder someone or blow up another livlihood

  • GEF

    “The idea that the English flag should be flying there 365 days a year in a nationalist county is ridiculous anyway and should be changed permanently.”

    The flag in question seems to be an artifact and part of the history in attached to the Castle Museum. Its removal would only be seen by Fermanagh Unionists and the local Orange lodges as just a beginning by republicans in removing other such artifacts from the museum. So one can understand UUP MLA Tom Elliot’s concern.

    ‘Enniskillen Castle’
    “The castle also houses the Inniskillings Museum, which is the regimental museum of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers and the 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards. Displays include uniforms, medals, flags, regimental regalia, weapons and other military memorabilia.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enniskillen_Castle

  • carl marks

    Was going o comment, then thought wtf the suns out I’m off to the pub, I’ll let SOS carry on with his incoherent bigotry and DC can be his usual vague self I’m off to the beer garden for a pint.

  • sonofstrongbow

    Hi stalker!

    You old enough to be in a pub?

  • carl marks

    Had a lovely pint back for dins,
    And bless him he thinks I’m stalking him! How cute, delusional but cute

  • carl marks

    On the subject of flags, the Irish News today carried a story about the British Army being a little annoyed at loyalists flying their regimental insignia as sectarian banners , seems the army also thinks this is a insult to the men and women serving overseas(can’t help to wonder why no thread on this) so two things of interest here,
    1/ the British army is embarrassed with loyalist attempts to align themselves with it,
    2/ it’s going to be interesting to see what is more important to your average unionist (any politicians willing to speak out about it)/ loyalist is it respecting the wishes of the army of the state they profess loyalty to or is it annoying Catholics, i know which one I suspect it is.

  • goalsboyce

    “Part of the local population at any rate. Most likely that part that showed a particular penchant for murdering others locals in 1641.”

    Locals my arse. More like settlers and land grabbers who benefited from ethnic cleansing. I doubt many of them even had a grandparent born in Ireland.

  • GEF

    I wonder how many NI citizens have ever been to visit the musuem in Enniskillen Castle let alone know it existed? On 2nd thoughts, Tom Elliot and the Orangemen of Fermanagh and South Tyrone should indeed be grateful the 13 Nationalists on FDC have given this military museum such publicity. (Controversial it may be). I will no doubt pay it a visit next time I am in or passing through Enniskillen.

    “Enniskillen Castle is situated in Enniskillen, County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland. It was originally built in the 16th century and now houses the Fermanagh County Museum and the regimental museum of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers and the 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enniskillen_Castle

  • Mick Fealty

    I was at a wedding all day yesterday, but you are right CM, could be worth a thread… Morph, were you offering to join the blogging team the other day?

  • Morpheus

    “Morph, were you offering to join the blogging team the other day?”

    No Mick, I was asking a general query to see if there are any plans to allow the users to select some topics that they think are of interest and allowing the other users to comment.

  • Mick Fealty

    Okay, well the answer that is, as the man says, “Never x 4…”

  • carl marks

    Could you just post a link to the article and the army’s statement or perhaps Chris could do something with it,
    Most interesting would be if one of our PUL bloggers handled it!
    But i think it would b interesting to see how this plays out. As you may have noticed i have a bee in my bonnet abut flags, I get quite annoyed if for example my national flag is flown as a tribal marker (the huge tricolour in Rasharkin annoys me every time I pass it)or stuck on a bonfire and it would appear that the British Army feel the same about their regimental flags.
    I would love to know if any of our posters feel the same about the union flag?

  • Morpheus

    “Never x 4…”

    🙂

    How did that end up for the last guy?

  • Reader

    Morpheus: How did that end up for the last guy?
    He retired, laughing, at the age of 84(ish), and still lives in Northern Ireland.

  • carl marks

    Reader (profile)
    9 June 2013 at 3:54 pm

    Morpheus: How did that end up for the last guy?
    He retired, laughing, at the age of 84(ish), and still lives in Northern Ireland.

    Yep and it turned out never x4 meant, only until they offer me enough!

  • DC

    Mr Never was supposed to go to the grave with the convictions he had:

  • Morpheus

    “Mr Never was supposed to go to the grave with the convictions he had”

    Yet he ended up: “Never, Never, Never, Never…oh go on then” 🙂

  • GEF

    Interesting question. I lived in Carrickfergus before I emigrated. It has one of the oldest castles in Ireland and a wonderful one it is. The year I left was its 800th anniversary. The local paper did a survey and close to 65% of the town population had never entered the castle walls, not even to visit the museum.

  • antamadan

    If I remember correctly from my visit to Enniskillen Castle, the English flag of St. George is flown ‘for-ever’ because the King of Englang wanted to celebrate the taking of the castle from the Gaelic Maguires.

    I presume a Gaelic chieftan flag flew before, and the local chieftan would have proclaimed it will fly for ever.

    Thus, the English flag should fly for ever because of a violent invasion; or the nationalist majority in the council should ensure an Irish flag flies now that democracy is in place, or no flag should be flown because NI is a divided society. I am amazed that most unionists insist on the former. It shames them.

  • GEF

    Mister_Joe, I don’t doubt it regards the old Carrickfergus Museum. This happens to many Local Museums including the recent new museum at Lisburn. If locals have to pay a small fee to enter their local museum they won’t visit it unless its free.

    When direct rule was in place Carrickfergus Castle Museum was no longer run by the local council. Pre 1978 the Irish Dragoon officers uniforms including a uniform of Winston Churchill along with many other military artifacts from Irish 19 century regiments was on display in the castle. All were removed and went on display in the Dragoon regiments museum in York. After the GFA in 1998 they never came back to Carrickfergus. So there is nothing to see today.

    Another interesting story is at the start of the troubles there was a 4 pounder field gun (minus breech) from the Boer war on display outside Belfast City Hall beside the Irish (Ulster) rifles statue. In 1969 the council had it removed to Theipval Barracks in Lisburn for safe keeping and guess what? The Paras stole it and it is now on display at the gates of their Regimental headquarters Colchester. Like the Military uniforms from Carrickfergus in 1998 it was never replaced.

  • GEF

    The flag of St George will continue to fly over Enniskillen Castle despite Sinn Fein attempts to force its removal, Tom Elliott has claimed.
    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/elliott-defiant-in-st-george-flag-row-1-5176239

  • GEF

    I know Tom Elliot and all the unionists in the surrounding area would not approve, but If the castle and its museums function is primarily to promote history, rather than 21st century political one up mans ship then a flag of the man who built the castle Hugh Maguire could be flown alongside the St George’s flag. Just a suggestion for the republicans to consider.

    http://www.enniskillencastle.co.uk//page.cfm/area/information/page/Maguire%20Chieftains/pkey/109

  • Tochais Síoraí

    Sligthly off topic but the council / psni could do worse than get a cherry picker once a month and remove the union flags and various loyalist paraphenalia at the bottom of Coleshill as well as the tricolours on the Cornagrade road, both main arteries into the town. Keep removing all flags on a regular basis and the clowns who put them up will soon give up.