“It is as if someone is trying to hide the sun with two fingers.”

Another ‘lesson’ from the Northern Ireland Process, being implemented in a more systematic manner elsewhere…

Afghanistan’s government is rewriting history, literally.

The education ministry has endorsed a new history curriculum for school students that deletes nearly four decades of the country’s war-torn past.

The government says textbooks based on the new curriculum will help bring unity in a country traditionally polarised along ethnic and political lines.

But critics accuse ministers of trying to appease the Taliban and other powerful groups by erasing history that portrays them in a bad light. They say the government is trying to win over the Taliban before Nato and US forces leave the country.

Afghanistan is entering a hugely uncertain time post-Nato, during which tricky arrangements with the Taliban and other players are expected.

Read the whole thing.

Adds  As I’ve said before, some people would prefer that we forgot completely about the entire 20th Century…

, , , , , , , , ,

  • Peter,
    I said I wouldn’t comment on any more of your, quote, “Trolling” threads, but here I am because I’m a bit annoyed.
    I deal and talk with schoolchildren in the North all the time. Their knowledge of history, their own history, is lamentable. It seems to stop at 1945.
    Academic excellence. as I am sure you know, involves examination of the facts as well as all viewpoints in order to arrive at a balanced opinion.
    I have been, frankly, stunned by the fact that Irish history is not taught in the North. I don’t mean taught in a biased fashion or in a limited way. I mean not taught.

  • Granni Trixie

    Bangordub: in light of what you write it’s odd that you cannot apparently bring yourself to write “Northern Ireland”!

    And wait until “conflict Resolution Centre” gets going for history to be rewritten.

  • Granni Trixie

    Oops..ought to have added ..” in the Maze”

  • salgado

    Bangordub – you must mean Irish history post 1945 is not taught. It might depend what age you deal with, but in the three years of history I did at secondary school we did cover the Norman invasion of Ireland, the Williamite Wars, the famine, the early twentieth century troubles up to independence and the Irish Civil War.

    History at primary school was a bit less focussed, but parts of earlier irish history were certainly covered.

  • tacapall

    Funny enough salgado they never taught us about English businessmen being able to buy Irish people as slaves for the New World, how they mated them with the African slaves and sold their offspring as slaves.

  • Pete Baker

    Guys

    Focus on the actual topic…

  • Unless I am missing something, I dont see how the discussion in the earlier post linked to bears any relevance or similarity to this story.

  • salgado

    tapacall – there’s a lot to get through. Things like the response to the famine, the penal laws, Cromwell were all covered. I’d say it was reasonably balanced.

    Pete – what actual topic? Afghanistan or the tenuous link to NI you stuck into it? The BBC article is an interesting read though.

  • Pete Baker

    Seymour

    You mean the “lessons from Northern Ireland” link?

    Did they not mention the rewriting of history?

    How strange…

    salgado

    Think harder.

  • Mister_Joe

    It’s way too early to write recent history. Need 50 years or so for “real” historians to be able to put everything into perspective. That includes being able to see State archives.

  • tacapall

    “Things like the response to the famine”

    What response would that be Salgado

  • Peter,
    I’m still waiting for you to answer me directly.
    I’m on topic and you still haven’t got there, several weeks on.

  • Toastedpuffin

    “I have been, frankly, stunned by the fact that Irish history is not taught in the North”

    I’m (kind of) stunned that you think that’s true. Are you sneaking in a bit of ironic recent-history rewriting of you own?

  • Pete Baker

    Bangordub

    There’s only one person “Trolling” here. And it ain’t me.

    Well, maybe more than one. But tacapall doesn’t count.

    Joe

    By that time the current protagonists will be long gone.

    And that points to their immediate concern.

    But, as I’ve said before, some people would prefer that we forgot completely about the entire 20th Century…

  • Mister_Joe

    By that time the current protagonists will be long gone.

    Pete,

    I’m not sure what you mean by that. Are you conflating the issue of the IRA wanting to rewrite history with the lack of justice for their victims?

  • sonofstrongbow

    History, particularly modern Irish history, is continually being reassessed, rewritten if you will. If the version of events being presented happens to chime with your own prejudices then it becomes a bold truthful statement of the facts. If it conflicts with your own views it is dismissed as revisionist nonsense.

    Take the opening shots of the so called ‘War of Independence’ at Soloheadbeg.

    To some this was a galant attack by Irish Republicans against the local collaborating mercenaries of the British oppressors. When the imperialist lackeys refused surrender and attacked the poor farmers’ sons forced to take up arms to free old Ireland from beneath John Bull’s boot they, regretfully, were killed.

    To others two local middle aged Catholic policemen were murdered by a band of brigands hiding in the hedgerow. The only regret, as expressed by one of the murderers after the event, was that there were only two police officers present to kill.

    The ‘facts’ are that two elderly men were shot to death. Period. The rest is ‘context’ and context is subjective. As is the ‘history’ of the incident. It is still too close, still has too many involved contemporary advocates on all sides to have a definitive history, if such a thing ever exists, written.

    Btw given that the Irish Republic’s Prime Minister has eulogised Michael Collins, the organiser of many such deaths like those at Soloheadbeg, on the 90th Anniversary of his death, at the hands of his erstwhile killer-colleagues, may give some indication of the ‘history education’ Mr Kenny benefited from.

  • tacapall

    Sticks and stones and all that Pete.

    SOS maybe you should read about Bloody Sunday 1920, I dont think those 14 civilians who were murdered were asked about surrendering. There was thousands of witnesses, they murdered 14 Irish civilians in revenge for the actions of the IRA.

    Theres a school of thought that believes Micheal Collins was murdered by British agents within his own Army

  • galloglaigh

    SOS

    the Irish Republic’s Prime Minister has eulogised Michael Collins… may give some indication of the ‘history education’ Mr Kenny benefited from

    salgado mentioned Cromwell – isn’t there a statue of him outside Westminster?

    You’re a strange one!

    History is being rewritten, not only in Northern Ireland, but across the globe. In 200 years time, those whiter the white will be seen for what they are/were. That includes all sides in conflict over centuries. You don’t need me to spell that out.

    On a lighter note – I love the History Channel. They’re more weird than Creationists: They think God made the World in 1939, and that Hitler is the Devil. It’s a bit like how Irish history is taught in schools here. As they say in Belfast…

    Ats balaux

  • Alias

    I guess we can forward to the appointment of a Taliban minister for Women’s Affairs.

    NI shows that folks allow recent history to be rewritten if they can be persuaded that it is their best interests that it should be rewritten.

    They allowed the Shinners to present themselves as a non-sectarian organisation because that pretence was required for their shared, non-sectarian future witch was to include the Shinners as members of their new Assembly and Executive. Unsurprisingly, their known – but expediently ignored – dysfunctional traits manifested themselves in sectarian behaviour at ministerial level in the new ‘non-sectarian’ arrangement.

    If the British state could get away with it, it would have appointed a Shinner as a Victim’s Commissioner. The nearest it could manage to that outrage was to put Eibhlin Glenholmes into the Victim’s Forum. It was careful to make sure she could call herself a victim to in order to deny that its purpose was to rewrite history with by allowing the Shinners to present themselves as victims of the sectarian murder campaign rather than the principal victimisers.

    Once the decision is made by a State to include a particular group that have committed atrocities against the public in a political process then it follows that the history must be rewritten to better enable the State to finesse its objective.

    No one really wants to admit that they voted for the worst murder gang in Europe or for an arrangement that includes them even if they were told by the State that it is their own best interests, so they pretend they did no such thing – with the assistance of the agencies of the state and its servile media class.

  • Dec

    ‘ It was careful to make sure she [Glenholmes] could call herself a victim…’

    How, by asking loyalists to shoot her when she was a teenager?

  • carl marks

    Pete, when you see the denial among unionist posters on this site as regards the sectarian nature of the NI state since its foundation, the links between unionist politicians and loyalist terror groups, the violent anti catholic nature of the B specials, RUC, UDR. And the use of terror by the British army against the nationalist community, and the failure to admit that the OO has been involved in street disturbances since it foundation I think your statement about people trying to rewrite history is spot on.
    Certainly the ability of PUL posters on this site to make it up as they go along points to a lamentable standard of history being taught to them.
    I suspect the rewriting that you are talking about is actually people (many respected historians) disagreeing with the; NI was a perfect wee country and the Catholics where all happy until evil men came along and drove them insane; nonsense peddled by many unionists. Which of course wasn’t history but rather crude propaganda, if you want to see rewriting of history read some of the stuff that has posted on slugger recently by PUL posters about the Holy Cross Dispute,

  • carl marks

    Dec (profile)
    20 August 2012 at 8:08 am

    ‘ It was careful to make sure she [Glenholmes] could call herself a victim…’

    How, by asking loyalists to shoot her when she was a teenager?

    Dec,
    Looks like we are approaching the all taigs are guilty of something so how can they be victim’s line. A classic,

  • Greenflag

    The future is certain -only the past is unpredictable .

    And this is as true for Northern Ireland as it is for Afghanistan and any other dysfunctional or inherently unstable State which does not command the full ‘constitutional ‘support from the vast majority of it’s population .

    ‘we can look forward to the appointment of a Taliban minister for Women’s Affairs.’

    You could blame that unfortunate likely scenario on the British Empire , the Russians imperial desire for access to a warm water sea port or the mixed American legitimate desire to hunt down and arrest Osama Bin Laden and inadvertently perhaps turn the whole Middle East region into sectarian killing fields with millions being forced to flee their homes and at the last count perhaps as many as 500,000 killed .

    On the other hand it’s so much simpler and requires absolutely no thought to blame SF and a ‘sell out ‘ British Government ?

    One word -cobblers !

    ‘No one really wants to admit that they voted for the worst murder gang in Europe ‘

    Comparing NI’s recent past or indeed it’s political future to Afghanistan’s is and I hate to use the word -overkill.
    Far better to compare to the Balkans .But then just one genocidal mass killing at Srebenica in 1995 resulted in 8,000 deaths of young Bosnian men which in one day ‘doubled’ the entire ‘death roll’ for the 40 odd years of NI’s ‘troubles’

    Perhaps the 20th century might better be forgotten .With a total of 100 million deaths including WW1, WW2 , the Holocaust , the Gulags , the 3 million in Vietnam and millions more in Africa etc etc .

    So far the 21 st century has been unable to keep pace .Apart from the 5 million in the Democratic Republic of the Congo , the million deaths over a 10 year period in the Sudan uncivil war – and the relatively minor phosphorous bombing to death of a 1,000 Palestinian women and children .

    Not to worry there’s another 88 years left in the century.

  • TwilightoftheProds

    Thats an interesting link to the afghan story.It looks like they are attempting two things:

    1: State approved amnesia. But it doesn’t work, people pick up a particularly lively and partisan form of history in their family, neighbourhood and peer group.

    2: It may be, as suggested, a signal to the Taliban and other actors that a degree of cultural and educational autonomy will be allowed in a future settlement: ‘The state will be amnesiac, but we’ll leave room…you can build your own histories of the conflict to your own taste within your areas’

    This is not by any means an exact fit for NI, but it does raise a lot of questions that might apply to us too.

  • Greenflag

    @ Aliar ,

    ‘the worst murder gang in Europe’

    ?? So what history books do you read ?

    On any list of ‘murder gangs ‘ I would assume the SS would be near the top followed by the NKVD (the Communist Russian ‘security ‘ police’ , followed by the too numerous to list various national aiders and abetters of the two leading murder gangs noted above .

    By comparison with any of the above any of the so called paramilitary murder gangs in Northern Ireland would’nt make it into the top 100 of European murder gangs .And if you widen the catchment area to include the Middle East then they would’nt make it into the top 200 .

    A case of NI punching not above it’s weight in this particular field of endeavour but well below, for which we (all of us on this island and the neighbouring island ) can be if not exactly grateful at least understanding that it could have been a whole lot worse .

    It could also have been entirely avoided but thats what we elect ‘politicians ‘ for is it not? They obviously failed then so lets hope they don’t fail again given their new dispensation.

  • Greenflag

    oops error above

    not @ Aliar but @ Alias

  • sonofstrongbow

    Goodness only knows what horrible Babylon Northern Ireland would be today if it were not for Irish nationalists identifying the nasty nature of usuns.

    Already we have had sectarianism codified on Slugger as the Protestant Disease. Now Denial Syndrome has also been ascribed in the DNA of those carrying the Mark of Calvin.

    These sages and philosophers of the Unionist Condition must now turn their microscopic analysis on the reasons why the Orange Terror State functionaries were such underperformers.

    Given that upwards of thirty thousand armed oppressors were on the streets at the height of the Troubles they never came within a beagle’s yowl of the body count of those few hundred Defenders of the People they were ranged against.

    Indeed even selecting out their preferred target, innocent Catholics, they were beaten to the punch/bat/bullet/bomb by those very same Defenders of the Innocent Catholic People.

    60:30:10, as someone might say.

  • Greenflag

    ‘Already we have had sectarianism codified on Slugger as the Protestant Disease.’

    We have ? You mean you have ! Sectarianism is a ‘universal ‘disease especially prevalent in regions of the world where one’s religious sect or denomination can make all the difference in one’s life chances and sadly can even enhance one’s violent ‘death ‘ opportunities . The Balkans , Iraq , Iran and now Syria not to mention Israel ,Saudi Arabia , Lebanon , Nigeria are all areas where the sectarian mindset becomes embroiled in these societies power politics and economies .Israel is apart from Saudi Arabia and/or Iran the most theocratic state planet .

    As for carrying the mark of Calvin ? All religions in one form or another carry the mark of Calvin -As you say it’s in their DNA -They have the ‘right ‘ God whereas others have the false God . Try talking reason to a modern day Ultra Orthodox Jew at the Wailing Wall or an Ayatollah in Iran or a Taliban in Afghanistan or a modern day Catholic who still believes that when the Pope is talking ex Cathedra he is infallibly correct .

    Horse manure all of it! Sectarianism of every ilk is just the hard skin on the outside and helps to deaden the smell .

  • looneygas

    I assume this Mark of Calvin business is intended as being an ironic play on words as it’s obvious that Prods suffer fron the weight of Cain’s brand upon their foreheads. These poor people, settled in a hostile land by their Daddy/King some 300-plus years ago, attacked, burned, thrown from bridges by the unwelcoming natives, persevered and carried on in their duty to suppress the congenitally rebellious Papists. They proved themselves to be not only loyal and faithful, unlike the Paddies, but also hard-working and industrious, also unlike the Paddies. Still and all, when the Abelites turn to terror and murder, Daddy responds with power-sharing agreements and seems to somehow acknowledge that the Paddies had some legitimate gripes which ought to be addressed. Who’s to blame the Cainers for crying bloody foul? They simply can’t understand how 300 years of goodness and mercy has been thus rewarded. Surely there is no God.

  • Toastedpuffin

    “congenitally rebellious Papists”

    Oxymoron alert!!!! Man the BS detectors, it’s a Level 4 MOPE we’ve on our hands!!!!

  • Toastedpuffin

    “By comparison with any of the above any of the so called paramilitary murder gangs in Northern Ireland would’nt make it into the top 100 of European murder gangs”

    Well that’s good, isn’t it? Lucky old victims of here!

    Clearly our conflict has been one of the less intense to afflict the world in the last century/aeon. However, I can think of few more deserving times to use the question “So what?” It shouldn’t deflect attention from (in this instance) a grossly inappropriate appointment to the Victims forum , or indeed any other injustice we have inflicted on us in the here and now.

  • Alias

    “By comparison with any of the above…” – GF

    You’re comparing state forces with private gangs. Didn’t you notice or just hope no one else would? The Shinners are by far the worst murder gang in Europe.

  • looneygas

    Sorry Puffin, I forgot that Papists are all obedient to the Pope. As for BS, the term Loyalist is the ultimate BS, closely followed by the state of “Northern Ireland.”

  • Greenflag

    @ Alias ,

    ‘You’re comparing state forces with private gangs.’

    I’m sure being murdered by State forces must have been a comfort to the 6 million holocaust victims and the 20 million gulag dead . It would have been so much worse had they been ‘terminated ‘ by private gangs eh ;(? Take off the blinkers Alias and stop reading that Ayn Rand shit !

    If the Shinners are the worst murder gang in Europe then the Haganah /Irgun must have been the worst murderers in British Palestine .

    Haganah -Irgun -Israeli Government

    IRA -Sinn Fein – Northern Irish Government

    The only difference being the Israeli Government has’nt yet got around to sharing power with the Palestinians or agreeing to a separate Palestinian State –

    But give them time .

  • Alias

    GF, that’s another variation on the practice of re-writing history: controlling how it is interpreted. If you can’t hide the facts from the public, you can try to control how they react to them.

    In that example the trick is present the Shinners sectarian murder campaign as ‘nothing out of the usual/nothing to be alarmed about/happens every day’ run-of-the-mill events.

    It’s true that it probably doesn’t matter to a victim’s parents if the Shinners murdered their child or if a Palestinian murdered him/her since the main importance is the murder itself. But pointing out that there are other murderers in the world doesn’t really excuse the Shinners, does it? No, but that is what it is intended to do.

  • carl marks

    Toastedpuffin
    “It shouldn’t deflect attention from (in this instance) a grossly inappropriate appointment to the Victims forum , or indeed any other injustice we have inflicted on us in the here and now.”

    of course she can’t be a victim for 2 reasons,
    1/ she was shot by loyalists when a teenager.
    2/ she’s a catholic,
    Could you supply a list of real victims, e.g. anybody not killed by loyalists, police, army etc?
    you understand it all very confusing for us taigs what with our false memories of state violence ,discrimination, and those dreams we had of unionist politicos standing beside (indeed forming) murder gangs.
    But as Alias hinted many of us had the honour of been killed by state forces and still we complain,

  • Greenflag

    @ Alias,

    ‘that’s another variation on the practice of re-writing history: controlling how it is interpreted.’

    We are told that the ‘winners ‘write the history and use it to advance their particular credos , political ,religious or economic . You on the other hand continue to assert that SF are the ‘losers’ in the great game in NI etc etc etc . So how can the non winners SF ‘rewrite’ history ? if they have lost?

    Are you suggesting that Unionism has lost ?

    ‘If you can’t hide the facts from the public, you can try to control how they react to them.’

    Goebbels , Madison Ave , Spinmeisters , etc the world is awash with them .As per the Randian doctrine of selfishness being the supreme good then you should’nt complain about from your perspective the most efficient and duplicitous liars winning out in the war for the ‘truth ‘?

    ‘pointing out that there are other murderers in the world doesn’t really excuse the Shinners, does it?’

    I did’nt say it did -nor did I state it excused the State forces or Loyalist paramilitaries or individual psychopaths .

    ‘In that example the trick is present the Shinners sectarian murder campaign as ‘nothing out of the usual/nothing to be alarmed about/happens every day’ run-of-the-mill events’

    Your paranoia is showing – Any knowledge of Irish and or British history would tell you that ‘killing ‘campaigns have been part of that history for as far back as you care to go . Hopefully they won’t be part of the future but who knows ? When an economic order collapses and enough people have suffered enough to the ‘fat cats ‘ of the City and their Westminster aiders and abetters and corporate financial banksters then the Levellers will rise again .

    I would like to see a world where there would be no ‘victims’ but such a world has’nt yet existed nor will it ever .The best we can hope to achieve is to minimize and restrict the possibilities for the creation of ‘victims ‘ by the power crazy , money crazy and the ideological extremists of the right and left and the bat shit crazy God botherers of all religions .

  • Alan N/Ards

    looneygas

    It is good to see some one from the america’s taking an interest in Northern Irish politics. I have an interest in North American politics, especially the fate of the indigenous native’s who had their land taken away from them at the point of a bayonet. Obviously these heathens deserved what they got as they were not as hard working as the planters. At least the planters had the “decency” to give the survivors reservations to starve on. I’m sure the descendant’s of the dispossessed natives are glad that all the stolen land has been handed back to them by the descendants of the planters. Tell me this is so looney.

  • Toastedpuffin

    carl marks:

    yes, you’ve got this Hun taped alright. Glenholmes isn’t unacceptable as a member of the Victims Forum because of her support for victim creation for many years, nor because of numerous questions regarding the level of her involvement with Republican paramilitaries that remain unanswered, nor because her appointment has at one (completely unnecessary) stroke made the work of the Forum worthless for many of the people it was meant to assist, no, none of those:

    It’s clearly because she’s a catholic, and indeed the only Catholic on the Forum, hence the one who’s attracting so much negative comment, don’t ya know.

    With deductive powers like that they’ll be calling you the new Clouseau before you can say “ballix”.

  • looneygas

    Alan, for one thing,I’m Irish Canadian. The conquset of the natives here was the act of the British.and the French. Tons of Irish and others swarmed here and settled land that was formerly native land. Yes, this was cruel, but not unusual. That’s the way of the world. Nations invade nations for one reason or another. What distinguishes us from you loonies is that we don’t celebrate the defeat of native peoples or the defeat of the French at the Plains of Abraham with inflammatory parades every year. We don’t provoke the natives at every turn, then accuse them of being offended. We try to acknowledge the wrongs of the past, and allow all Canadians a sense of dignity and belonging. We aren’t perfect, and life on reserves is dismal in a lot of cases,but this is due mainly to lack of economic opportunties in remote regions. When Canadians see reports of reserves with no clean drinking water and substandard housing, we don’t all have a laugh at themmuns, (Some of us do, but they’re mainly Ulster Prodfolk.) My beef with Prods is not that you were settled 300 years ago to suppress natives, but that you haven’t moved an inch in all that time. You still think that you are special, and the IRA’s campaign of violence and terror has given you the excuse to continue to hold yourselves on a pedestal and believe that you are more deserving of God’s favour than your brother.

  • carl marks

    Very good you of course have evidence of her guilt. Of course it bollix as we know she not only has the temerity to survive a murder attempt when a teenager but even worse is a republican,
    Can i now take it that anybody involved with terror groups in any way can’t be involved in government because if that’s so republicans are not the only side that will have to take a long look at themselves? .
    Then again I see your point Ulster resistance was” loyal” so Peter and Ian really didn’t set up a terrorist organisation after all dead taigs don’t count.
    Perhaps you would prefer if a “community worker” was appointed,
    But you go ahead and tell nationalists who can represent them a tactic that has worked so well in the past,
    The hypocrisy of unionists is astounding, one the one hand they boast we don’t vote for terrorists but have no qualms voting for those who shamelessly used loyalists whenever it suited them, attended their funerals when they got killed,
    I wouldn’t need all the fingers of one hand to count the times unionist politicians condemned without reservation loyalist groups. However I would need more hands than Kali to count the amount of times they stood with them.
    You do understand that their where two sides involved here (by the way check the history books out regards who done the first killing bombings etc) both sides have victims both sides need representing and each side will pick its representatives, so you have cried your river now time to build that bridge and get over it, or get even futher left behind.

  • carl marks

    the above post was for Toastedpuffin

  • Toastedpuffin

    Carl marks:

    Easy up on the hysterical overreaction, I’ve no time for the unionist equivalent of Glenholmes and her ilk either. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but your only “defence” of the appointment of someone who has openly advocated violence against other human beings as a legitimate means of expression is pointing out that unionists are a bad lot.

    If you take the time (and maybe breathe into a paper bag a wee bit), you’ll see this is rubbish. Glenholmes is not a legitimate member of the Victims Forum because she believes that most of the rest of the victims were legitimate targets. That killing and mutilating human beings was acceptable behaviour. The VF had an uphill task at the best of times, but her appointment has alienated many from it before it even started. A poor, and gratuitously offensive, decision.

    I suspect though that I’m wasting my time here: your support for glenholmes is based on her being a good catholic nationalist (and sticking it to the huns never did any harm, eh?)

  • sonofstrongbow

    This rewriting of history lark seems to be taking off. Thus we have an “Irish Canadian” assert that the Aboriginal peoples of Canada are “allowed” (yes ‘allowed’, how kind) a “sense of dignity and belonging” alongside the Johnny-Come-Latelys.

    They are also ‘allowed’ to experience the full spectrum of a marginalised community, and on their own turf too. Life expectancy for First Nation peoples is significantly lower than that for other Canadians. Infant mortality is double that of the general population. All socio-economic outcomes are poorer as a group for Aboriginal communities: alcoholism rife, poor general health, inadequate sanitation and social infrastructure.

    Attempts by Aboriginal people to claim their land rights on many occasions meet with hostility and the provision of basic services has to be fought for. Presently there is a human rights case against the Federal Government over the provision of children’s services on reserves.

    All this is wrapped up in a widespread racist attitude towards Aboriginal people highlighted in recent reports by the National Anti-Racism Council of Canada.

    Now it is unlikely that Federal and State governments in Canada are in thrall to “Ulster Prodfolk” but such casual sectarianism in suggesting that it is “Ulster Prodfolk” who “mainly” cheerily support the deprivations of Canada’s First Nations might just indicate a mindset where dissing an entire community would find a home.

    But hey not to worry I’m sure Aborginal people get a nice warm feeling watching the parades by the blow-ins on Canada Day.

  • carl marks

    I suspect though that I’m wasting my time here: your support for glenholmes is based on her being a good catholic nationalist (and sticking it to the huns never did any harm, eh?)
    firstly I don’t have a lot of time for the catholic church therefore being a good catholic doesn’t mean a lot to me, secondly i don’t know if she is a catholic good or otherwise (but nice of you to bring her religion into it says more than a bit about where you are coming from) Secondly since I’m not a shinner I probably would have been happier with a happier appointee but alas that’s the whole democracy thing for you they are the largest nationalist party, this is much the same reasoning I use when I face the reality that Clontibret Pete is first minister.
    Also if you would care to look at unionism they have demonstrated that they regarded “That killing and mutilating human beings was acceptable behaviour.” providing the victims where themmuns.
    I do not support her right to be on the victims committee no more than I would support a loyalist on it ,I merely recognise that she represents a section of the victims and they like every other section of victims need representing.
    Now in order for me to take you seriously perhaps you would show me where in the past you have condemned the unionist politicians who have quite often in the past supported the premise “That killing and mutilating human beings was acceptable behaviour.” and called for their removal from office.
    Also your remarks sound like those we have heard from unionists for as long as I can remember telling nationalist’s who they can vote for and who can represent them.
    (And maybe breathe into a paper bag a wee bit)
    Good one, again I’m not the one hyperventilating over a appointment to the VF.

  • Toastedpuffin

    carls marks of Glenholmes @ 9.21a.m. :

    “she’s a catholic”

    carl marks of Glenholmes @ 9.56p.m. :

    “i don’t know if she is a catholic ”

    😀

  • looneygas

    SOS, Way to seize on the word “allowed” and magnify it wildly out of proportion. Yes, Native people are in a terrible position and there’s no easy answer to their problems. I’m glad if their plight makes you as an Ulster Prod feel like less of a jerk. Glad you appreciated my little jibe that those Canadians who revel in the suffering of others are mainly Ulster Prodfolk. I assure you that mainstream Canadians wish the best for native Canadians, and do not countenance any measure of the hateful bigotry that is “Northern Ireland.”

  • sonofstrongbow

    Still with the sectarianism Looney? No doubt you will soon post statistics that support your contention that “Ulstet Prodfolk” is the community that “revel” in the deprivations of Canada’s Aboriginal peoples.

    You are in denial about the conditions of day to day life for First Nation communities when you state that “mainstream Canadians” do not “countenance any measure” of bigotry towards them. Their second class social and economic conditions are bigotry write large.

    Perhaps in your own private little Jerkdom you know as little about Aboriginal Canadians as you patently do about Northern Ireland.

  • carl marks

    Toastedpuffin
    I would argue that if you look at the post at the post you quote properly you will see that I am talking about your perception of her,
    I’m still waiting for proof of your outrage at those who where closely involved with unionist terrorists, and just to give you he benefit of the doubt I went to your profile and looked at all your posts (your quite repetitive you know) and guess what not a bit did I find, so since you have never presented a argument challenging unionist terror or those who used them I can only assume that what we have here is another example of a imbalance in the mote and beam ratios.
    As a matter of fact I if I believed it I would be delighted with your new found recognition and disgust at unionist sectarianism, but you have to admit that every time a nationalist has pointed out unionists faults past and present your standard reply seem to accuse them of “wanting to stick it to the huns” ;-0

  • looneygas

    SOS, Once more, I’ll say that I was just teasing when I claimed that our racists tend be Ulster Prodfolk. The people who complain about Natives not having to pay sales tax, having special hunting rights, free tuition and so on tend to be poor white people of all backgrounds who are envious of anyone else getting a break. Personally, I recognize that Natives got the shaft in the whole colonization deal,(tuberculosis, smallpox, rape, murder, dispossession, forced assimilation, destruction of an entire way of life,) and think it’s proper that Natives get a break or two. As to the conditions on some of these remote reserves and the stats on Native suicide rates, rates of alcoholism, drug abuse, poverty, illiteracy, I am far from ignorant or uncaring. There is an ongoing debate in this country as to how alleviate these problems, and “allow” for a better life for Native Canadians.
    Chinese-Canadians, Greek-Canadians, Portugese-Canadians, Jamaican-Canadians and non-hyphenated Canadians tend to want all Canadians to have a good life. We do not see politics as a zero sum game where one group’s gain is our group’s loss. We are not perfect and the state of some reserves and some big city native ghettos are a disgrace, but we are rank amateurs compared to you when it comes to bigotry. Really, those signs at the border should read—“Welcome to Northern Ireland, home of Sectarian Hatred.”

  • Reader

    looneygas: We are not perfect and the state of some reserves and some big city native ghettos are a disgrace, but we are rank amateurs compared to you when it comes to bigotry.
    Does this imply your ghettos are better than our ghettos? What other *actual* comparisons would you propose? (Hint – rhetorical comparisons aren’t winning anyone over to your case)

  • looneygas

    I meant no comparison between ghettos. I was adding, for the sake of accuracy, that it’s not only Natives on remote reserves who live in poverty, but also many of those who live in cities. If you want an “*actual*” comparison, we don’t have parades that are expressly intended to remind Natives that “we” defeated “them.” I’ll state again that we, as Canadians fall far less into the us vs. them mentality that is evident every day on this blog.
    We can’t draw too many parallels between Canada and the six- county looney bin. We are made up of many ethnicities. We’re not split down the middle like you are. The ethnic demographics here are completely different, and we do see other Canadians of all stripes as fellow Canadians, although we’re not without bigots. I’m not trying to win anyone over to my case. I am simply saying that Prods should realize that they live in Ireland and consider the possibility that being a sizeable minority in the republic might be preferable to being a tiny minority in the U.K. Can’t hurt to try. You are no longer needed to keep the French and/or Spanish from invading England via Irealnd, so embrace Eiru as your queen and be happy Irish people.

  • Mister_Joe

    ..we do see other Canadians of all stripes as fellow Canadians..

    Unless, of course, it’s an “Asian looking” woman on the $100 bill. 🙂

  • looneygas

    In which case, after consulting a focus group, we don’t want to run the risk of furthering stereotypes of Asians as science geeks(not exactly the most negative stereotype, but anyway.)

  • looneygas

    Joe, what did my Irish-Canadian sister say to her Irish-English-Scottish-this-that-and-the-other-Canadian son when he told her that he got the highest mark of any white kid on his math test?… “Way to go Bri!”

  • Mister_Joe

    Highest white kid? Behind all the Chinese and Indians I assume?

  • looneygas

    You assumption is correct. No white kid is expected to outperform Asians in math. We do have our stereotypes.