Parading & the Lessons for Conciliatory Strategies

Yesterday I was in attendance for the annual Easter commemoration held in Ardoyne for local republicans from the Ardoyne, Ligoniel and Bone areas who had lost their lives in the struggle for Irish freedom.

The occurrence of the event would not have likely registered with the neighbouring loyalist communities on account of the fact that the parade route did not stray beyond the accepted confines of the overwhelmingly catholic Ardoyne area and indeed steered clear of the interface roads in all directions.  

It occurred to me how simple it would be to make Easter Tuesday into an annual interface clash as is the case in the area for the 12th July loyalist parade.

What an interesting challenge it would be to unionism were republicans to seek to parade from Ligoniel to Ardoyne down the same road and using precisely the same argument that loyalists use for their contentious Crumlin Road parades- ie it’s a shared stretch of road and the only direct manner of getting from one district to another. Incidentally, the loyalists were at it again on Easter Monday, marching past Ardoyne so that they could then get onto buses and make their way to Carrickfergus…

So why is it not the case that republicans seize the opportunity to cause trouble for their loyalist neighbours?

Well, republicans will tell you that it is because their singular interest for the day is on remembering and commemorating republicans who have died whilst fighting for a united Ireland. Accordingly, republicans from Ligoneil do not have cause to parade from their district down to Ardoyne. Provoking a sectarian stand off might antagonise ‘the other,’ spark a conflict between young loyalists and the PSNI, as well as giving the Parades Commission a headache, and ultimately it would be to the detriment of community relations in the area and distract from the raison d’etre of the day’s proceedings.

There’s a very obvious lesson in there for the Loyal Orders…..

Peter Robinson doesn’t appear to get how this sits uncomfortably (to say the least) with his slightly conciliatory strategy. But, ironically, the UDA Leader Jackie McDonald does appear to understand the obvious contradictions inherent in Robinson’s approach.

Those who have attempted to argue the case in defence of the sincerity of Peter Robinson’s Outreach initiative will doubtlessly be observing with the rest of us how the East Belfast-based First Minister handles the proposed Orange/Loyalist mobilisation planned for this May in that part of the city.

In a fascinating intervention, UDA Leader Jackie McDonald has revealed that the Loyal Orders are “allowing loyalism to join in” with the Ulster Covenant parade, outlining how UVF members will march in “the Somme gear” and how “the UDA will be suited and booted.”

Throw in the unionist politicians and it’ll be quite the PUL gathering: paramilitary & politician hand in hand with Loyal Orders’ members who once upon a time would have had us believe they opposed paramilitarism.

Unlike the First Minister, who of course intervened to aid the Loyal Orders as they sought to fulfil the right to antagonise their catholic neighbours in the Short Strand last July (just weeks after the UVF had orchestrated a sectarian invasion of the small catholic enclave), McDonald has sounded a dissenting chord, suggesting that unionists should be taking into consideration how nationalists view such a procession, not least since it will pass by the Short Strand area.

Perhaps he’s just a Lundy. Traitor. Egotist.

Or perhaps the loyalist leader, through years of direct engagement with nationalist and republican representatives at all levels, has begun to appreciate the need to accommodate the Irish nationalist tradition within a progressive unionist narrative in a manner which remains at odds with that of the undisputed political leader of modern unionism.

‘Tis a funny old world…….

  • Apart, together. A strategy for CSI. Discuss.

  • “So why is it not the case that republicans seize the opportunity to cause trouble for their loyalist neighbours?”

    Chris, you cannot be serious. The Irish Times carried the transcript in which Gerry Adams described the nature of PRM trouble making:

    Mr. O’Brien said that a crucial part of Mr. Adams’s speech read: “Ask any activist in the North did Drumcree happen by accident, and they will tell you ‘no’ ….. three years of work on the Lower Ormeau Road, Portadown, and parts of Fermanagh and Newry, Armagh and Bellaghy, and up in Derry”.

    “Three years’ work went into creating that situation, and fair play to those people who put the work in”. According to Mr. O’Brien, the Sinn Fein president concluded: “And they are the type of scene changes that we have to focus in on, and develop, and exploit.”

    The Irish Times 5 March 1997 .. source

    The Irish Times blew McLaughlin’s protestations out of the water.

  • The “shared road” rhetoric of loyal Orders (2012) is essentially no different from the “Queens Highway” rhetoric of th3 1990s. Loyalists can walk anywhere. Republicans cannot.
    Things become accepted….ie Orange Order walking where they want…..and essentially that passivity is not much different from the way the Orange Order was permitted to march anywhere, including thru the Tunnel in Portadown. Traditions become “traditional”.
    And yes republicans have an opportunity to create a few traditions of their own. Including marching down the Crumlin Road.
    Sauce for the Orange goose is sauce for the Republican gander.
    Of course loyalists in Crumlin Road will object……exposing the “shared road” lie as merely the Queens highway Re-visited.
    Of course there is no chance of a republican parade from Ligoniel to Ardoyne being permitted.
    Which of course means that an Orange Parade cannot really be allowed either.

    So whether a republican parade is allowed or an Orange parade banned……is a good result.

    Of course with DUP and SF (Stoop Further) addicted to “outreach” that would be an uncomfortable scenario for both of them. Exposing them as hypocrites.
    The thing is that Outreach is not really Outreach if there is an agenda.
    Most decent people in the republican and nationalist communities were involved in Outreach before it became fashionable, organised or even given a name.

  • ranger1640

    Thanks Chris for giving us an insight into the thinking in the republican part of Ardoyne, very insightful.

  • lamhdearg2

    Have you no better link to illustrate Ardoyne’s (big?)Easter whatsit, than a mural dipicting some dead sectarian terrorist’s. ligoniel folk parading to ardoyne, sure why not, right after ligoniel folk of the “pul” varietie get to walk PAST it in peace, and just before suffolk folk get to walk into the city centre via the falls,am i not comparing like for like?, well you started it.

  • ranger1640

    I can’t help contrast Chris’ post with that of the dear leaders 7 bullet points to achieve a UI.

    Adams at moment in time is doing more of the jaw jaw were as Chris is wanting more of the war war.

    Have you been getting some of the RNU literature in the post Chris.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Chirs, I was at the parade in Carrickfergus on Monday, had a most enjoyable day, didn’t hear of any problems there or on the way. The rain held off, met up with some friends i hadn’t seen for a while, and enjoy my walk along the sea front, past the historic castle, church, town hall etc. the town is looking a bit “tired” but improvements are underway, lets hope they are successful as it has the making of a lovely place to start the coastal tour.

    See thats how you report on your day, without the need to wind everyone else up. Tell us about your day if you want but why the constant need to used it as an excuse to attack “the others”. Your atemp at claiming some sort of moral highground falls a bit flat when you have it wrapped in a thread that lashed out left right and centre at unionist.

    PS. you started an interesting thread on Uninoists respecting the Republican dead, but then abandoned it, hope you engage better this time.

  • HeinzGuderian

    …..who had lost their lives in the struggle for Irish freedom.

    And the many,many more who lost their lives in the struggle for freedom from the irish.

    ‘Tis indeed a funny old world.

  • Reader

    Chris Donnelly: on account of the fact that the parade route did not stray beyond the accepted confines of the overwhelmingly catholic Ardoyne area and indeed steered clear of the interface roads in all directions.
    If you were keen to avoid offence you set yourself a very unambitious target:
    Does the choice of route guarantee that all of the people in earshot are supporters of the PIRA?

  • ranger1640

    “Throw in the unionist politicians and it’ll be quite the PUL gathering: paramilitary & politician hand in hand with Loyal Orders’ members who once upon a time would have had us believe they opposed paramilitarism”.

    Chris, Unionists and Orange Order members are in government with unrepentant republican terrorists. So why not have a PULfest at Stormont. Or do you not subscribe to an Ireland of equals.

  • tyrone_taggart

    Reader
    “If you were keen to avoid offence you set yourself a very unambitious target:
    Does the choice of route guarantee that all of the people in earshot are supporters of the PIRA?”

    I like your idea. Do you think it should be applied to all parades?

  • Drumlins Rock

    Chris, as any good republican knows Balholm Drive is a stones throw from the interface at the shops, so hardly as neutral as you maintain. Even the Oldpark Road end was within “earshot” of loyalist areas, on another thread that alone seemed to be enough to cause offense.

  • lamhdearg2

    honest? are white line pickets legal, and if not so, ?2, is openly calling for people to break a law, not something the law should be doing something about.

  • Reader

    tyrone_taggart: I like your idea. Do you think it should be applied to all parades?
    That’s very sporting of you. In a likewise generous spirit I would wish the UDA, UFF and UVF to be challenged in the same way.
    But that’s only an idle whim. The current parades legislation balances rights and responsibilities, obligations and tolerance, in a rather successful mix, and I wouldn’t actually want to mess with it. I was just struck by Chris’s implicit assumption that the Provos are mainstream or merely memorial these days. Not yet.

  • between the bridges

    CD’ Parading & the Lessons for Conciliatory Strategies’ given that the 97% of parades/events require no input from the PC one wonders who needs to learn your lesson…

  • between the bridges

    would the sperrin’s be ‘beyond the accepted confines’?

    SF has organised a 12-mile walk through the Sperrin Mountains to mark the 25th anniversary of the deaths of eight IRA men who were killed by security forces as they attempted to bomb Loughgall RUC station.http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/anger-at-plan-to-glorify-ira-gang-1-3719442

  • Fr.Tom

    what does tribalism do except cement the mental barriers
    why not have a “getting to know each other day”
    I am Irish , I am British, I am REpublican, I am Unionist
    mingling , openly .. close the town centre to traffic
    and have stalls, food, music, colourful costume ,dance, street threatre.

    You popularise that & bigots, scowlers, begrudgers
    would be the marginalised damp squibs
    too scared to come out of their homes for fear of maybe enjoying themselves.

    choose somewhere in the North for a pilot initiative, see what goes down.

  • tacapall

    Everybody’s offended by something these days and who gets away with what is all down to who has the biggest mouth and that award goes to Unionism at the minute – No offense intended guys. The Crumlin Road is indeed a shared space and rightfully so. Everyone’s entitled to use it for means of access from a to b but gathering together to parade past an area where the residents feel offended to b so as you can board a bus to go to c to parade seems a deliberate act of antogonism. The Orange Order to Catholics is a reminder of all that was wrong with this state, who’s members although eat the alter rails are far from Christian when they walk out the church doors for they have no problem marching under or behind banners commemorating loyalist paramilitaries some of whom were psychopaths like Robert Bates who toured Catholic areas especially Ardoyne for innocent victims to torture and slit their throats.

  • Drumlins Rock

    taca, can you show me a bates banner?

  • tacapall

    DR

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bates

    The banner of Old Boyne Island Heroes Orange lodge bears the names of John Bingham and Shankill Butcher Robert Bates,

    Bates’ name was subsequently included on the banner of a prominent Orange Lodge on the Shankill Road, called Old Boyne Island Heroes. A fellow Lodge member and former friend of Bates defended the inclusion of his name to journalist Peter Taylor:

    “I knew him very well and he’d been a personal friend for twenty or thirty years and to me he was a gentleman”.

    He went on to describe him as having been “an easy-going, decent fellow, and as far as the Lodge is concerned, a man of good-standing”.

    Bates’ funeral was attended by a large representation from local Orange Lodges.

    Another Shankill Butcher, Eddie McIlwaine, was pictured taking part in an Orange parade in 2003 with a bannerette of dead UVF volunteer Brian Robinson (who himself was an Orangeman).

    Other prominent loyalists who were also members of the Orange Order included Gusty Spence, Robert Bates, John Bingham, Richard Jameson, Billy McCaughey, Ernie Elliott, and Robert McConnell.

    All of the above loyalist paramilitaries are well known to the people who live in and around Ardoyne and whether you understand it or not, feel offended by Orangemen rubbing salt into their wounds by pretending to be a Christian fellowship while reminding them of the inequality in their right not to be offended or emotionally pained by people glorifying the murderers of their loved ones. No different than the people of Wootton Bassett.

  • ranger1640

    Now now tacapall, you could start a tit for tat posting war on Orange Order members and those in the GAA who are/were republican murders.

  • Neil

    and just before suffolk folk get to walk into the city centre via the falls

    What a revealing comment. Riddle me this: when your thought process is mapping out an hypothetical Orange parade and you end up leaving from a road which at one end, leads you as you say down the Falls; while at the other is the majority PUL Lisburn Road, do you intentionally choose the route through a majority Nationalist area or is it a subconscious thing?

  • Fr.Tom

    Conciliatory strategies!
    its all too bloody serious isn’t it?
    Just meet up for a larf wit t’other from t’other
    No big day, no big deal,
    To heavies from either side saying “what you doing “?
    You just say we’re you’re meeting up fer a laugh,
    is that alright?wanna join us
    there’ll always be one bigoted knob ,
    with a face like a slapped arse who wants to get angry
    ” You’re not taking this seriously are you? ”
    lol- no we’re not , no we’re not ..that’s the whole point .
    hahahaha

  • Drumlins Rock

    taca, your link dosn’t go to the right page.

    Searched for the Bates banner you refered to, found one for Old Boyne Heros, http://www.flickr.com/photos/lancashire/3749960732/in/photostream/ cant see Bates on this one, (the next pic has the other side at a distance, don’t think thats him either) Don’t think banners showing killers should be in any parades no matter if it a 100% one sided area or up a mountain, including the republican banners with IRA killers on them. Some say Bates was a changed character, but that certainly dosn’t make him a hero, or any of the others.

    As for parading through the Ardoyne, that would be completely wrong, but then no Orange parades do go through the area, they very briefly pass some shops on the main road at the very edge of the area 3 or 4 times in a years. It would take an extremely observant nationalist to go to great lengths to even catch a glimps of the banner never mind read whos name is on it.

  • cars1912

    Was in Tigersbay on Monday and heard the parade etc to the Republican plot in New Lodge. Not sure of the route but anyway it was heard. According to some posters on another thread that means the event should not have taken place. No complaints from me apart from guns that weren’t even around in 1916 being carried by SF.

    Back to Short Strand. The parade is walking up the Newtownards Road. The residents there have indicated that they want the parade to walk along “their road”. We will oblige. Approximately 20 houses in Short Strand back on to the Newtonards Road. If they want to watch thye will have to look out bedroom windows. Other than that they will only hear the parade.

    I suggest they do what I did on Monday and carry on about my business.

    There will be no guns on parade, few other than the bandsmen who wear 36th Ulster Division uniforms all the time in “Somme gear”.

  • tacapall

    Ranger the GAA are trying to reach out to Unionism they have no rules barring Protestants from becoming members, something the Orange Order can never do nor would they have the will to do. The GAA don’t parade past nor do they desire to parade past contentious areas with banners commemorating those who murdered the loved ones of that area. A better comparison for you would be the AOH but I guess they don’t annoy people that much. No-one should have the legal right to offend others be that the GAA, AOH, Orange Order or whoever. The scenes of violence and death caused by those who demand their right to walk and offend wherever they wish is inexcusable, no different than clubs who receive public money that name their premises after anyone who murdered innocent people and that includes the RUC.AA

  • tacapall

    DR I know most Orange Order parades are not contentious and I’m sure the majority of its members are Christian in their everyday lives and enjoy their days out parading, there is always a small minority who exploit a situation and the Orange Order has its share of them and if you can’t change them why not just avoid the situation. Orangemen have paraded past Ardyone carrying one of those banners commemorating Brian Robinson and its not the point that you have to go out of ones way to be offended, the point is that its allowed to happen.

  • andnowwhat

    Interesting to see FJH use the SF-Stoop Further. I used a similar tone on an OP on another site. On yet another issue, the shinners have left the building when the spirit of the old protestant ulster raises it’s head.

    The shinners try to assert, with regards to the Ardoyne parade, that they are the only game in town and anyone outside of that fold is branded a dissident. It’s not just unionism that has been given the hall pass by the doffing shinners but loyalism too. Whilst the first minister rewarded the unchecked UVF with tea and bikkies in The Stromont Hotel, Gerry Kelly could only muster a couple of mummblings about the attack on the Short Strand, the Ballyclare riot and the lack of arrests. Of course, he had plenty in reserve for those in Ardoyne who know better than to buy the shinner BS.

    It’s not unionists that are going to be the issue in 2016, it’ll be the shinners and their fondness for Skodas and the average industrial wage with a heaping of very generous expenses on top. Unionists will be unionists but so too, it seems, will the “Stoop Further(s)”

  • Drumlins Rock

    Taca, without going over old ground the GAA would appear to ban Unionists, I would be very please if it could be proven that this is not the case. There are several GAA clubs locally who regularly host republican events, and the victims of these killers they celebrate are reminded of that every time they go into town and see the people wearing the tops assocaited with that club, it isn’t just 2 or 3 times a years, its almost daily.

    Everyone should have a legal right to annoy, you annoy me at times, and I annoy you i’m sure, annoyance should never be legally an issue. However intimidation, threat, incitment and even nuisance are different issues.

  • tacapall

    DR I’m sure that is an issue that can be looked at and hopefully will and I’m sure you understand what I meant by annoy, at least at the end of a discussion you still have a sense or humor and understanding which counts for something.

  • lamhdearg2

    neil,
    i think maybe (maybe not) you misunderstand me, i am not suggesting the O.O. march from suffolk into the city centre via the falls road,* hence my comment at the end of,,”am i not comparing like for like?, well you started it.”.
    For chris to claim that out of the blue and against the backdrop of the last 20 years of orchestrated violence and attacks on marchers and followers of the marchers including children by irish nats, and with that intimadation still continuing (white line pickets by not on ceasefire groups) if republicans where to seek to parade from Ligoniel to Ardoyne, it would not be the same, simply put he is not comparing like for like.

    ps, where the suffolk band and its followers attempt to walk to the lisburn road i would dare say you and others would not like it, pps, i am not suggesting they should.

  • DR, not only do parades passing the Ardoyne do so infrequently and mostly early morning, but so few in the Ardoyne care that people come from elsewhere to share in the offence and make up numbers – accounting for almost two-thirds of the less than 30 who bothered on Monday morning. Perhaps the lack of photo of the oppressed gathering from Chris might suggest it wasn’t many more turned out later?

  • Drumlins Rock

    diss, I was disappointed that Chris’s link didn’t show the parade just some glorified gafitti, I watched a good bit of the Falls Parade on Youtube, I was somewhat bemused with the duck march as mentioned elsewhere.

  • Drumlins Rock

    btw, is Chris becoming another Pollock/Mallie, pontificating but failing to engage in the discussion.

  • ranger1640

    tacapall, Firstly the GAA may be reaching out to Protestants however they can’t reach out to Unionism that would be contrary to their aims and ethos but I will deal with that later.
    You may be confusing all Protestants with Unionism. I myself am not that religious however I am a Unionist and believe in the Union, but that’s enough about me.

    As far as I can see the Orange Order is reaching out to all sections of the community not just roman catholic’s with Orangefest.

    This is quite different from the GAA; they are an alleged sporting organization. However unlike any other sporting organization I know off the GAA has an Irish republican political and cultural aim and ethos.

    The GAA rules state Quote:
    membership of the Association shall be granted
    only by a Club, to persons who subscribe to and
    undertake to further the aims and objects of the
    Gaelic Athletic Association, as stated in the Official
    Guide.
    One part of those aims and objects, again taken form the GAA rules, quote:

    Since she has not control over all the national territory, Ireland’s claim to nationhood is impaired.
    And,
    Today, the native games take on a new significance when it is realised that they have been a part, and still are a part, of the Nation’s desire to live her own life, to govern her own affairs.

    To join the GAA one must agree to those aims and ethos. Therefore it stands to reason because of my Unionist political and cultural background and principles I would not be permitted to join GAA.

    As for the GAA not parading well that’s not strictly true.
    GAA facilities are the starting point or finishing point for many IRA/INLA hunger strike commemorations nationalist/republican political parades. Hardly a good sign of out reach to the majority of Protestants, Unionists and Loyalists.

    If you check the GAA rules this is allegedly against their rule 1.11.
    Non-Party Political
    The Association shall be non-party political. Party political
    questions shall not be discussed at its meetings, and no
    Committee, Club, Council or representative thereof
    shall take part, as such, in any party political movement.
    A penalty of up to twenty four weeks suspension may be
    imposed for infringement

    However that runs contrary to what Dr John McSparran Chairman of Antrim County GAA Board said when the IRA/INLA terrorist groupings held their hunger strike commemoration and Sinn Fein political rally in Casement Park. He said “political parties in the Irish Republic held events on GAA premises, “yet an event (the IRA/INLA hunger strike commemoration and Sinn Fein political rally) which is described as non-political by its organisers causes so much controversy on a wider basis”

    Now that is offensive to sections of the community.

    As for offence, correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think there is a legal right that lets people offend others?
    What we do have here is an independent parades commission that decides on matters of disputes. The commission weighing up the pros and cons and the checks and balances as to what is permissible or not as the case maybe.

    Hardly a legal right to offend.

    The commission also decides on republican counter protests. Is this were you are getting the scenes of violence and death from? Caused by those who demand their right to defy a determination and take the law into their own hands.

    I agree with you that this violence is unacceptable and I’m sure you will agree with me that this violence needs to be met with the full vigour of the law, at any and all illegal counter parade protests. Even when the violence has descended into days of violence, in fact many days after any parade has past that point?

    Not sure where you were going with your RUC A.A reference? However I agree with you on the names issue.

  • tyrone_taggart

    “As far as I can see the Orange Order is reaching out to all sections of the community not just roman catholic’s with Orangefest.”

    Well not all:

    “When a parade passed the shops at Ardoyne, a similarly sensitive interface, the commission took the order’s hint and specified that hymn tunes could be played. The band picked a great Protestant hymn, What a Friend We Have in Jesus. It goes: “O what peace we often forfeit, O what needless pain we bear. All because we do not carry everything to God in prayer.”

    The sentiments expressed seem inoffensive, but unfortunately those were not the words actually sung passing Ardoyne. A video posted on YouTube shows the tune was announced as Holy Mary by a band leader. A crowd of women chanted: “Holy Mary, I am dying. Just a word before I go. Set the Pope upon the table, and stick a poker up his … Holy Mary, I am dying.”

    No doubt the Orange Order, which likes to wash its hands of any trouble at events, will say that marchers did not join in this sectarian chanting, and that it had nothing to do with them. This would be somewhat disingenuous.

    The order has a duty to ensure good behaviour at its events, or else cancel them to avoid the huge drain on police resources caused by contentious parades. It should be talking to both the Parades Commission and residents to ensure that everything passes off peacefully in the spirit of Orangefest. ”
    http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/Sunday_Times/arts2011/jul10_Orange_Order_must_mark_new_beat__LClarke.php

  • ranger1640

    Where is the link to the video?

  • tyrone_taggart

    The Sunday times did not give it.

  • ranger1640

    There we go. I too have searched youtube and I can’t find it. I can find a video from last year were, Abide with me was played and many where no hymns or music was played.

    I’m minded of sinn fein indulging in street politics at Ardoyne. When they lose control of the mob they called into the streets. And when all hell breaks out they blame everyone from Uncle Tom Cobley and all. There where also questions as to why and how did parents let their 8 year old’s out to riot, sad very sad indeed.

    It was a brief verbal exchange that spoke volumes. By a burned-out car that still smouldered, its blackened bonnet strewn with broken bottles that the night before had been fashioned into lethal Molotov cocktails and hurled at police officers, the pair stood face to face, only inches apart. One, grey-haired and balding, 6ft 4in with a distinctly age-stooped gait, folded his arms across his chest and narrowed his eyes in a flinty glare. The other, a swaggering teenager in a hoodie, his face swathed in a Manchester United scarf to conceal his identity, stared straight back. “Shove off, old man,” he said mockingly. “Sure, you sold out your community. Just so that the likes of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness could parade about in posh suits and sit up in Stormont. What do they care about the Ardoyne now? You lot don’t speak for us any more. Why don’t you just f––– off.”

    It wasn’t the response the older man, Bobby Storey, had expected. Nor the reaction to which he was accustomed. Storey, a veteran IRA man, a legendary godfather of terror in the nationalist heartland of north Belfast, is not a man many would challenge.

    Known in paramilitary parlance as “The Enforcer”, Storey served 18 years for gun attacks on the Army. In 1983 he was among 38 Provisionals who escaped from Northern Ireland’s Maze prison – the largest jailbreak in British history. Maudlin republican ballads eulogise his terrorist exploits, and his portrait glares down from the gable walls of republican west Belfast.

    In short, among the nationalist community, when Bobby Storey, in his trademark low, menacing voice, says jump, the required response is: “How high?”

    Here, however, in the riot-scarred streets of Ardoyne, the young pretender in his hoodie and mask was far from intimidated. All week he had led locals, some as young as eight, in pitched battles against the police – hurling stones, bricks and home-made grenades.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/northernireland/7896588/Sinn-Fein-are-yesterdays-men.html

    http://www.u.tv/News/Policewoman-stable-after-Ardoyne-riots/5d6b539c-6b79-468f-a3b7-b4e767d6485c

  • tyrone_taggart

    “I too have searched youtube and I can’t find it.”

    I never searched youtube, do you think the person who wrote the article was not telling the truth?

  • tyrone_taggart

    Why are you on about sf? I don’t think anyone blames the OO for sf actions?

  • ranger1640

    I was drawing the comparison between where you inferred that the Orange Order were responsible for the crowd, as they sing.

    I was making the point that shinners bring a mob onto the streets to indulge in shinner street politics. It inevitably descends into violence and attempted murder. That goes on for several days and nights of violence. The shinners are very well adept at attempting to wash their hands of responsibility.

    One, grey-haired and balding, 6ft 4in with a distinctly age-stooped gait, (Bobby Story) folded his arms across his chest and narrowed his eyes in a flinty glare. The other, a swaggering teenager in a hoodie, his face swathed in a Manchester United scarf to conceal his identity, stared straight back. “Shove off, old man,” he said mockingly. “Sure, you sold out your community. Just so that the likes of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness could parade about in posh suits and sit up in Stormont. What do they care about the Ardoyne now? You lot don’t speak for us any more. Why don’t you just f––– off.”

  • tyrone_taggart

    “where you inferred that the Orange Order were responsible for the crowd, as they sing.”

    It was not me it was the Sunday times. The English see the situation in the same light as football teams. The club/national side is often held responsible for it supporters even if there actions are away from the actual match.

  • ranger1640

    Yes, like the shinners bringing rent a mob out!!!

  • tyrone_taggart

    “Yes, like the shinners bringing rent a mob out!!!”

    That is your view and in the end it does not matter for the OO if they do. One cannot control the actions others only oneself.

    BTW: Why is it that the contested areas tend to be in places Unionism is strong? Why do think the shinners do not bring there rent a mob out “west of the Bann”?

  • ranger1640

    Tyrone, I don’t know where your going with your posts. You seem to be all over the place now you want to go west of the Bann????

    “One cannot control the actions others only oneself”. So you agree that the Orange Order were not responsible for the women who allegedly sang the song (no link). At last we agree on something.

    As for shinner polit bureau, they even got offended with the Kingsmill victims remembering their loved ones. I just can’t rational the shinner neurosis.

  • tyrone_taggart

    “So you agree that the Orange Order were not responsible for the women who allegedly sang the song (no link). ”

    As you raise the issue of the link again can you clarify to you think the article in the Sunday times was truthful on its claim of the youtube video?

    I would not hold the OO responsible for people who are not either directly or indirectly part of its origination.

    As you would agree:
    “The order has a duty to ensure good behaviour at its events, or else cancel them to avoid the huge drain on police resources caused by contentious parades.”

  • tyrone_taggart

    “Tyrone, I don’t know where your going with your posts. You seem to be all over the place now you want to go west of the Bann?”

    It was you who was always on about sf.

    It was your post on “Orangefest” to which I responded.

    As “Orangefest” occurs west of the bann where sf are particularly strong its a reasonable question to ask “Why do think the shinners do not bring there rent a mob out ” there.

  • stewart1

    ‘ I was at the parade in Carrickfergus on Monday, had a most enjoyable day, didn’t hear of any problems there or on the way. The rain held off, met up with some friends i hadn’t seen for a while, and enjoy my walk along the sea front, past the historic castle, church, town hall etc.’

    Strange how you missed all the anti-social behaviour, teenage drinking and mass fights close to the castle?

  • “you missed all the anti-social behaviour, teenage drinking and mass fights”

    stewart1, you can see that sort of thing in Portrush and Ballycastle – mainly during the ‘night-time’ economy and mostly at week-ends.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Stewart,
    Actually I did see gangs of drunken teenager fighting and arguing with the police on Monday, after the parade, only this was the Mardi Gras style Easter parade in Bangor where I was later in the afternoon. Want to blame the council for that?

    Saw no trouble whatsoever in Carrick, and drove by the castle when I was leaving long after the parade had ended.

  • stewart1

    drumlin

    BBC now reporting the Carrick trouble

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17686614

    As i say, strange you missed it?

  • To be fair, big crowds will always attract an anti-social element.
    And nine times out of ten the cause is alcohol.
    Alcohol is the biggest cause of anti-social activity.

  • between the bridges

    stew1.. teenagers? drink? bank holiday? sea side? never!! ( i take it you never watched Quadrophenia!! )

  • Drumlins Rock

    Stewart, I resent your implication that I am lying, I did not see any trouble and drove past the castle on my way out of town, the parade had passed the castle well over an hour beforehand.

    Reading the report it says there was an accident before the incident, I did see an ambulance car with sirens on as I was sitting in traffic on the road out.

    The castle was at the furthest point from both the start and end points of the parade so it is highly unlikely parade participants or those travelling with them were involved.

  • between the bridges

    Ps.. like Dr i was at the parade and seen no hassle, however there where a few groups of yooths with blue bags. there is a wide variation with enforcement of on street drinking across n.i there seemed to be a very ‘light’ psni presence at carrick and the parade marshals would have no powers re alcohol. given that there where 30k at the event and 4? arrests after it was over methinks perhaps the other 99.99% could get a mention…

  • Comrade Stalin

    Chris, you cannot be serious. The Irish Times carried the transcript in which Gerry Adams described the nature of PRM trouble making:

    Nevin, just because Gerry and company chose to push at an open door does not mean that the problems around marching are merely “trouble making” (apart from anything else you’re going back 15 years – a lot has changed since then).

    In danger of sounding cliched, the experience in Derry shows that ways can be found whereby marches can proceed and the local community are fine with it. I’m not aware of anyone on either side of this argument expressing discontent at the way things are done there. Why couldn’t this be a model for how we solve parading problems elsewhere ?

    If the various marching bands chosen to reroute just a couple of these contentious parades, such as the 12th in Ardoyne, the effect would be transformative, both on the ground as well as in terms of the perception across the whole community that the OO is serious about lifting its end of the log when it comes to consolidating the peace.

  • JR

    Btb,
    No harm to you but there wasn’t anywhere near 30K in carrick at that parade.

  • JR

    In my opinion the parade in ardoyne and the one in carrick are culturally exactly the same. I am sure there is a point to them somwhere given that people patronise them but personally don’t see it.

  • between the bridges

    JR personally i don’t see the point in running around with a football in your hands, slapping it to each other and kicking it over the bar, but hey each to their own..if you have a more accurate assessment of the numbers at the event do say…

  • Dec

    ‘Chris, you cannot be serious. The Irish Times carried the transcript in which Gerry Adams described the nature of PRM trouble making:

    Interestingly, that speech appears to be the single pronouncement by Gerry Adams that unionists believe to be entirely truthful. Odd that.

  • “Gerry and company chose to push at an open door”

    You must be joking, CS; the Athboy strategy was carrying on the ‘war’ by other means. Not only was it about confrontation, it was also about removing folks from local communities whose faces didn’t fit; the PRM’s loyalist counterparts ‘reciprocated’. As I’ve previously stated loyalist and republican parades are sometimes held without troubling the Parades Commission for a licence – and the authorities maintain a safe distance.

  • “Odd that.”

    Dec, perhaps he boasts to the faithful in private about his exploits during the ‘war’; they don’t seem to be too put out by his public denials.

  • JR

    I know what a crowd of 30,000 is and what I see in those videos isn’t it. When there are 30,000 in clones there are 20 mile tailbacks in every direction out of the town, every street is solid with people.

    I can make a very educated guess though. From Youtube videos of the parade about 100 pass the camera every minute. The parade took about 15 minutes to pass. That is 1500 in the parade. I can’t see anywhere where the crowd is more than one deep or where it is shoulder to shoulder. Even if it were and there was 1 person every meter for four km on both sides of the road that only makes 8,000 people. My guess because of the gaps in the crowd is closer to 3,000 spectators.

    If your estimate is accurate there would need to be spectators 5 deep both sides of the road over the length of the parade. The parade would need to take an hour to pass a given point. Therefore I conclude you are over-blowing the event to make it seem more popular and relevant than what it is.

    If I claimed there were half a million Irish speakers in the six counties or that three quarters of a million people attended last years all Ireland final you would pull me up on it too.

  • between the bridges

    JR there would have been 1500 bandpersons in the parade, add in the clubs & guests you would have had a total of 2.5-3.5k on parade, it took 1hr 45min to pass, as for spectators they where sparse down one end of marine road, but they where 10 deep in other areas, imho your estimate of 3k spectators is a joke!

  • Total in Carrick about 20,000. They were five deep along from before Sainsbury’s and well along Marine Way.

    Was parked in the Castle Car Park. Was there waiting from about 2.30 (half hour after the parade had ended) to 3pm, and was stuck for a further 40 minutes trying to leave the car park due to traffic congestion. Didn’t see any bother at the Castle. Haven’t seen timing report.

  • Comrade Stalin

    You must be joking, CS; the Athboy strategy was carrying on the ‘war’ by other means.

    I don’t care about what SF’s strategy is or might be, or what your opinions about that are.

    My problem here is the notion implied by your line of argument, which is that there wasn’t a problem with marching before SF decided to agitate over it. You’ve even elevated it to the term “Athboy strategy” suggesting all opposition to marching is orchestrated. I have a problem with this idea because it’s bollocks. There has been serious disorder associated with certain – not all – Orange marches for a long time. Going back to the 60s. Many of us are very unhappy about some of what the Orange Order and other organizations stands for, especially as loyalist paramilitary organizations have in the past taken it as their duty to uphold what they see as the Order’s interests.

    But, speaking personally, I don’t mind parades provided they are lawful and respectful, do not involve glorifying any criminal individuals or organizations, and where the paraders show willingness to accommodate the reasonable concerns of the residents in the neighbourhood where the march is due to proceed. I think that’s common sense. In fact in a debate I would 99% of the time side with those parades going ahead and I would be happy to persuade others to that point of view.

    The reason why your attitude – sectarian and ignorant as it is – is damaging is because it seeks to marginalize anyone who thinks that a march should be rerouted as some sort of fellow traveller with SF. This kind of mischaracterization in turn discourages marching orders, and those who support them, from the need to believe that there might be legitimate reasons why some people are unhappy at certain marches going past. It’s the height of irony that people like Jackie McDonald can talk about this in public and unionist leaders can’t.

    The reality is that certain marches, like the one up in Ardoyne around the 12th, bring out the criminal lowlife minority prevalent in some parts of our community, to the delight of the more organized violent elements who want to plunge this society back into the dark ages. That problem needs to be properly addressed, and that cannot happen if unionists stick their fingers in their ear and dismiss all the unhappiness with Orange marching as mere SF pot-stirring.

  • ranger1640

    CS “like the one up in Ardoyne” Just a bit of clarification the parade is not in Ardoyne.

    The parade goes along the main Crumlin road. The area of Ardoyne is to the rear of the shops on the main Crumlin road.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Would prob go with Dissenters figure of around 20,000, about 4,000 in the parade (44 bands, check the PC website) and most of the route was at least 3 deep both sides.

  • “The reason why your attitude – sectarian and ignorant as it is ..”

    CS, it’s not the first time you’ve resorted to the ad hominem attack – and it probably won’t be the last.

  • jthree

    CS is right. Let me give one very small example in a place I am familiar with, Ballymena.

    On many Saturday nights during the summer the vigil mass at All Saints church would happily coincide with various band parades. Pretty much every band would stop outside the church at the junction of Cushendall Road/ Broughshane Street to belt out some sectarian standard as various bits of blue bag pondlife swaggered about with only the lightest of policing to be seen.

    This was unsurprisingly a source of some resentment/ distress/ annoyance to local Catholics. But they felt pretty much powerless to do much about. There political representatives – two SDLP councillors – understandably did not make a great deal of public fuss.

    On the face of it might have appeared that the local Catholic population had no objection to being intimidated in their place of worship on a regular basis. But that impression would be wholly wrong.

    Then came some bits of SF activism in the town, the Parades Commission, a more confident nationalism generally. Those parades are now lightly regulated, only really requiring people not to act like dickheads.

    The open door was pushed at.

    Also CS is being remarkably generous in saying violence at parades was only a problem from the 60s. Being going on much longer than that.

  • lamhdearg2

    “If the various marching bands chosen to reroute just a couple of these contentious parades, such as the 12th in Ardoyne”,
    CS, there is no way to reroute the ardoyne parade to one that would be less contentious, the route the parade takes has been changed a number of times to shorten the distance that it would be open to attack, these changes have not been enough for some, and the attacks have continued, i understand you may not know the area, so i will leave it to others, to explain what a less contentious route would be.
    ps i agree that some parades should take the moral high ground and reroute, but i also understand why they dont, as i share the thinking that it would not be the last time they would be asked to change, and thats what causes the give an inch lose a mile mentality
    If you read what some of the commentors on slugger are saying, that is, that they do not want to be able to hear the bands let alone see them,then add that,anyone with a knowledge of the lay out of belfast, would know that the city centre can not be reached without passing within earshot of irish nat ears, so what these folk are saying is the 12th and any other parade, which is not of their liking should be banded, thats fascism, and i am not for that.

  • Several years ago when Mary McAleese became President, BBC Norn Iron showed an interview with her which had been recorded before her Presidential Campaign.
    She is much the same age as me and she spoke about Orange Parades and how as a child and young person, she could not understand how passive people were about them.
    Certainly living in a “mixed” street in West Belfast (one end Protestant, the other Catholic…….and predictably we lived in the middle) I remember an Orange band and lodge coming into our street on 12th July. I think it was to pick up the local Master of the lodge at his home (is this a 12th July tradition?).
    And certainly I recall parades up Broadway to Falls Road Church (which is now an Cultúrlann) and parades up the Grosvenor Road to Drew Memorial Church.
    And on holiday in Coalisland, County Tyrone most summers, there was often an Orange parade along Loughview Gardens and down Platers Hill.
    I dont recall any trouble (although I believe the Grosvenor Road parade was attacked at Leeson Street).

    While I was a child it was a pleasant enough spectacle. Kids like bands. But after a while it became an attitude of sullen resentment and a certain embarrassment that Catholics were so passive about it all.
    I am glad that has changed.

  • BluesJazz

    FJH
    I live in a village where 1 annual (band) parade is just about accepted.
    The majority of people (as far as I can ascertain) have no religious beliefs. -They’re mostly young and well educated. Admittedly the elderly, less well educated in science, are more prone to tribalism.
    Most would be insulted to be termed ‘Catholic’ ot ‘Protestant’. They think rationally.
    Hopefully that’s the future.

  • lamhdearg2

    fjh,
    “Certainly living in a “mixed” street in West Belfast* (one end Protestant, the other Catholic…….and predictably we lived in the middle) I remember an Orange band and lodge coming into our street on 12th July. I think it was to pick up the local Master of the lodge at his home (is this a 12th July tradition?).”

    The gall of them, an Orange band* and lodge coming into OUR street, even though she admits it was a mixed street, ie, to collect their leader.

    Whats the odds that both churchs and marys old west belfast street* no longer have a prod/non irish nat about them, maybe she is “glad that has changed”.

    * bandmen/ladies are not necessarily members of the Orange order, maybe she was using the term Orange in the way some nats do, as in all prods are Orange Bastards.
    * was she not from ardoyne (north belfast).

  • Drumlins Rock

    Jazz, do you live in Ballydarwin? or maybe Dawkinsville?

    Although the NI figures aren’t available, the ROI have RC at over 85% and only 5% non-religious, even double that figure for NI, make your village exceptional and triple it again to 30% is still far short of the majority you claim, I get the feeling you are exagerating and that most are happy using the religious labels. Even if if it does mean you label them old, poorly educated, un-scientific, irational tribalists.

    As for the annual band-parade, hope you enjoy it, you know that bands also contain well educated athiests? they are quite a mixed bag.

  • “she could not understand how passive people were about them.”

    fjh, this would be the President who endorsed the Finaghy Crossroads Group (loyalist and republican paramilitaries) and whose husband played golf with a UDA ‘brigadier’. Now that’s passivity to excel all. Perhaps she was just acting as an agent of the Irish government, in particular, the Department of Foreign Affairs; the Irish Department of Justice is much less sanguine about the paramilitary control of local communities.

  • between the bridges

    FJH is this a 12th July tradition? yes it goes back to when lodges would meet in the WM house, it is still common practice in some areas, but the only time i personally have paraded from a WM house was in Glasgow…

    as for ‘the embarrassment that Catholics were so passive about it all’…good job the east europeans don’t do bands and music eh?

  • Well actually I was referring to MY street in West Belfast and I hardly mean to imply that I had ownership. And I dont think “our” street would imply that it was owned by “our side”.
    Merely stating a fact from the late 1950s/early 1960s.
    At one end of the street a cluster of British flags flew in July with a RUC man from Cullingtree Road “barracks” on permenant duty. Alas no Irish flags flew at the other end of the street.
    Perhaps if there had been, the RUC would have been equally protective.
    But it was remarkably harmonious in the mid 1960s…with our little mixed football team going to play in the Falls Park, Botanic, Lady Dixon, Ormeau.
    And on Sundays people quietly went to their respective churches.
    And on Sundays, the Catholic parents made sure their kids did not upset the Protestant neighbours by playing football or other street games.
    And the little Protestant boys went to the local mission hall dressed like sailors.
    Alas nothing much changed because of ethnic cleansing.
    Most people were on the housing list to move to better areas.
    Oddly the Protestants did seem to be the first to get out of our street….to Rathcoole, Gilnahirk as I recall.
    Cant think why.
    Perhaps they were just on the housing list longer.
    The only other explanation would be that housing allocation was unfair and that might be why the Housing Executive was set up in 1971.
    Will we ever know?

  • Barnshee

    “The only other explanation would be that housing allocation was unfair and that might be why the Housing Executive was set up in 1971.
    Will we ever know?”

    The following might shed some light;

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/discrimination/gudgin99.htm

    Some uncomfortable items in there (for all parties)

  • “The only other explanation would be that housing allocation was unfair”

    It was all down to political patronage, fjh: mostly Unionist, sometimes Nationalist, sometimes Socialist. I recall Sheelagh Murnaghan giving off to Gerry Fitt when he proposed that politicians be given a say in the earlier Northern Ireland Housing Trust. Presumably patronage could mutate into votes.

    We’ve moved on since the formation of NIHE; even its troubled leadership has been in the news in recent years. Patronage in some areas really lies in the hands of paramilitaries. It’s probably just a matter of time before patronage is returned to local councillors.

  • Indeed …political patronage and disproportionately unionist.
    But Sheelagh Murnaghan might not be best example of democratic accountability. Gerry Fitt was at least MP for Dock. Sheelagh was one of four MPs for Queens University.
    No doubt she was able ……as evidenced by the number of quangos on which she served.
    And she was quite properly an early advocate of Travellers Rights and was campaigning for a site on the Beechmount area of West Belfast in early 1960s.
    Personally I always thought that the grass outside the Lanyon Building at Queens would have made an ideal Travellers site……..but Sheelagh did not see it that way. Not in her front yard obviously.

  • ranger1640

    Now the moment is moving onto another sacred cow housing. From alleged discrimination at the parades commissions determinations to housing all in 80 odd posts. Classic pincer movement.

  • between the bridges

    bit of flip there FJH…anyway if i was to suggest something to be embarrassed about perhaps the ingrained oppression?

  • lamhdearg2

    fjh,
    “Certainly living in a “mixed” street in West Belfast* (one end Protestant, the other Catholic…….and predictably we lived in the middle) I remember an Orange band and lodge coming into our street on 12th July. I think it was to pick up the local Master of the lodge at his home (is this a 12th July tradition?).”

    The gall of them, an Orange band* and lodge coming into our street, even though you admits it was a mixed street, ie, to collect their leader.

    Whats the odds that both churchs and your old west belfast street* no longer have a prod/non irish nat about them, maybe you are “glad that has changed”.

    * bandmen/ladies are not necessarily members of the Orange order, maybe you where using the term Orange in the way some nats do, as in all prods are Orange Bastards.

    on moving on and getting first choice of the new houses,
    my parents having been forced to leave their martial home(council), had to live with my fathers brother for two years in a cockroach invested two up to down, before getting an nihe house, in that row of nihe houses of the seven homes 5 where familys who had been forced to leave previous homes, my wifes famliy suffered the same.