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How could Carson attend a Covenant commemoration? Bring the rally to Stormont!

on 10 April 2012 , 9:50 pm 47 | 103 views

Northern Ireland Parliament Buildings - Edward Carson statueWhile the County Grand Orange Lodge of Belfast will be marching to Ormeau Park in May, the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland are going one better later in the year. As the rhyme might go:

Oh, the grand old Duke of York Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland,
He had ten thousand quite a lot of men;
He marched them up to the top of the Hill,
And he marched them down again.

That’s right. Edward Carson’s statue in front of Parliament Buildings in Stormont Estate is the venue for parade.

A BBC NI news online article explains more about the Covenant commemoration march and rally:

It is understood to be the first time in living memory that the estate will have hosted a formal Orange event.

Approval for the Grand Orange Lodge to use the estate has been given by the Finance Minister Sammy Wilson.

The centenary committee plan to have the speaker’s platform next to Sir Edward Carson’s statue in front of parliament buildings, home of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

In a statement, the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP) said that permission had been granted “subject to detailed arrangements and relevant paperwork in relation to the event being agreed with the department’s Estate Management Unit and other relevant authorities”.

From Poc Fada to Formula 1 to Rally Ireland to Red Bull Soapbox racing to Pudsey to Orange Men … all Folks on the Hill!

Image via Wikipedia

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  • Fr.Tom

    will this orge be billed as a cross-community event?

  • Fr.Tom

    oops typo will this orange event be cross-community?

    The two things I find sad are :

    1) The orange order have played no part at at in the immense achievements over the last 20 years.

    2) Carson was instumental in Oscar Wilde being to jail
    The irony there is a statue is built for carson;
    whilst Wilde wrote a beautiful story of immeasurable compassion:
    “A swallow meets the statue of the late “Happy Prince”,
    which houses the soul of the original prince,
    who in reality had never experienced true happiness.
    The statue inspires the swallow to selfless acts”

  • Drumlins Rock

    Fr Tom, first thing, never ever blame a Lawyer for merely doing their job, Carson was employed to defend Queensbury who Wilde stupidly sued, he did it quite brilliantly, but it meant Wilde basically comdemed himself.

    On your first point, considering most of the Unionists who created and ammended the agreement were Orange members it dosn’t really stand up. Even the original “opposition” to the GFA was quite muted.

    I don’t think it will be Cross-Community in participation, but everyone will be more than welcome to watch the parade, and Stormont is a beautiful setting for such an event.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Alan, your attempt at poetry is not quite up to Oscar Wildes standards. However it is a fitting rhyme if as some suggest the Duke Of York actually was an Orange Grand Master. The other possibility is that the much mocked Duke was actually James II (who also had New York named after him btw) William’s enemy.

  • What’s the quid pro quo for The Shinners. The Poc Fada was small beer and maybe the Shinners are looking to do something up on the Hill with one of the upcoming centenaries but to what end other than rubbing Carson’s nose in it.

  • Fr.Tom

    DR
    I’m not actually opposed to the event
    I wouldn’t attend republican events either.
    All too embarassing for me these public dispays of patriotism. *shudder*
    true triumph is an inner struggle, like overcoming a prejudice ,
    or those selfless acts of Wilde’s statue

  • Drumlins Rock

    whereas I enjoy the spectacle of such events, they are enjoyable days out for most of those involved, I enjoyed the Hibs parade on St Pats day, as I said Stormont is an amazing setting, I look forwards to it. I’m sure some more nationalist event will tak place there soon enough.

  • Fr.Tom

    DR
    Have a great day – honest
    I’m uncomfortable with such displays of identity
    It is only for Orangmen really , who as we know
    are quite an insular organisation, with funny rules
    who don’t like to talk to other people from the other side .

    Cricket would be fine by me
    IRE vs ENG or IRE vs SCOT

  • Has the Orange Order no self respect? Carson described them as ALL OLD BONES AND ROTTEN RAGS. Are they hoping not many know this? This is desperation city arizona with stilts.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Tom, couldn’t sit still long enough for cricket, prefer the dander.

  • DR. That town in northern France called Cassel where the Grand Old Duke of York actually took his men would be a fitting venue for Paisley to make his final speech.

  • Fr.Tom

    nice DR
    look forward to the day when we can have a green and orange event,
    no military displays.
    cath/Nat/Rep wear the green
    prod/union/loyal/ulsterscots wear the orange.
    celebrating yer irishness N/S/E/W
    ah but we’d need an umpire between to keep the peace
    pete baker in cricket whites directing the traffic 😉
    solved !

  • dwatch

    To my knowledge Edward Carson was not a member of the Orange Order. Prince Fredrick The Duke of York 2nd son the George 11 was Grand Master of the Orange Order of England, he resigned in 1821. The Duke of Cumberland dissolved the Grand Lodge of England in 1836. King James 11. (1633 – 1701) died 94 years before the Orange Order was formed in 1795.

  • dwatch

    Correction: The Duke of York 2nd son of George 111 was Grand Master of the Orange Order of England, he resigned in 1821

  • Drumlins Rock

    Thanks dwatch, wasn’t sure of the exact details. Ironically it was the Royal connection that was the orders bane in those years, getting caught in political crossfire.

    Carson like all good heros was a outsider of sorts to those who adored him, the outsider element seems to be compulsory in such roles.

    Just a wee side issue but this parade will be one of those rare occasions when Belfast gets a variety of music, with Pipes, Silver, and Accordions all bringing variety to the parade rather than the dominance of flute.

  • dwatch

    “with Pipes, Silver, and Accordions all bringing variety to the parade rather than the dominance of flute.”

    DR, something which Belfast has been missing for many a year. The black institution at Scarva and the more well heeled rural LOL’s book these bands every year. If this parade is a success maybe the Grand Lodge of Ireland will repeat it annually.

  • ranger1640

    ardmajel55 Carson was a great orator, however the Orange Orders leaders were not that good at inspiring speeches for the gathered meetings. It was at this point he made the comment. He stated that their speeches reminded him of “the unrolling of a mummy. All old bones and rotten rags”.

    Hardly the context that you try the portray.

  • ranger1640

    Guys last years West Belfast District and Whiterock parade had a silver band lead it around the Shankill and surrounding areas and they were meet with great applause.

    I must admit it was a delight to see and hear a silver band on the road again. By the way I see the band stand in Woodvale has been refurbished. I hope they have a program of various bands for the summer concerts.

  • lamhdearg2

    “What’s the quid pro quo for The Shinners. The Poc Fada was small beer and maybe the Shinners are looking to do something up on the Hill”.
    from the bbc,
    “A Northern Ireland Assembly committee is to debate whether the Irish flag should be flown at Stormont.
    The Assembly Commission, which runs the Stormont estate, has agreed to discuss the matter, according to Wednesday’s Belfast Telegraph.
    Sinn Fein’s John O’Dowd said it was time for a “cool and mature” debate.”

  • Ranger. By implying that Carson’s comment was a reference confined to a rebuke to OO on their delivery style and not the speeches content, you are taking Carson out of context yourself.

  • Drumlins Rock

    what was the context ardma? can you tell us the occasion Carson made the remarks, who to and in what context?

  • DR. Ranger seems to have more knowledge on this event than me. I’ve only recently come across it on a UTV late news report on the covenant.

  • DR. In fact Carson, although at aged 19, joined the OO later he came to a strong dislike of it’s whole practices and was also not much enamoured with the local political discourse that unionism revelled in. presumably due to it’s overt sectarianism.

  • ranger1640

    Ardmajel, be it content or delivery of the speeches I can’t define. However as I said, “Carson was a great orator” and great speech writer. I therefore would not be surprised if it was both the content and the delivery of the speeches that Carson made his remarks.

    However you have not given any context in which Carson made his comment in the context in which you implied in your original post.

  • Ranger. My point in disputing the meaning of the extract in your first post response to mine, is that you sought to suggest that Carson wasn’t being critical of the OO itself in his ”rotten rags’ remarks but simply decrying their uninspired delivery.. I’m saying he was clearly contemptuous of them from his general attitude to the insular ways of unionists in his time. that’s the context.

  • ranger1640

    Ardmajel. Can you give the a context as to where Carson said what he said please.

    As I said “He stated that their speeches reminded him of “the unrolling of a mummy. All old bones and rotten rags.”

    I can’t find the reference which you are trying to make, and to “presumably” make a point is not making the point.

  • dwatch

    “I’m saying he was clearly contemptuous of them from his general attitude to the insular ways of unionists in his time. that’s the context.”

    ardmajel55, will you please explain If Carson was so contemptuous towards the Orange Order how come he left the Irish Unionist Party to become leader of the UUP from 1910 to 1921? Remembering it was the Orange Order which formed the UUP in 1905, and in those early days of the new political party 50 % of Ulster Unionist Council members were all members of the Orange Order?

  • dwatch. All you have to do is read about carson’s view of northern unionism. I suppose he had to belong to some political party up here and after the failure of his original plan to prevent Home Rule, [the covenant] he voted for the partition solution which created the six county entity, after having earlier voted against it in parliament.It was the best available at the time but he wasn’t happy with the 15% of the island left after Britain insisted on Home Rule despite him.

  • dwatch

    ardmajel55, many Unionists & Orangemen were likewise against partition. Especially the 40 000 from Cavan, Monaghan & Donegal who had signed the covenant.

    Furthermore no UUP member or Orangeman signed the partition Anglo Irish Treaty These 10 men signed:

    British side Tory Party
    David Lloyd George, Prime Minister
    Lord Birkenhead, Lord Chancellor
    Winston Churchill, Secretary of State for the Colonies
    Austen Chamberlain, Lord Privy Seal
    Gordon Hewart, Attorney General for England and Wales

    Irish side (IRB)
    Arthur Griffith Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
    Michael Collins, Secretary of State for Finance
    Robert Barton, Secretary of State for Economic Affairs[1]
    Eamonn Duggan
    George Gavan Duffy

  • dwatch

    “dwatch, It was the best available at the time but he wasn’t happy with the 15% of the island left after Britain insisted on Home Rule despite him.”

    ardmajel55, I agree he was not happy, the Prime Minister David Lloyd George & the Conservative party left Carson & the UUP with no choice but to accept Partition in 1921. Bit like Tony Blair and the Labour party in 2007 at the SAA left Paisley & the DUP with no choice but to go into government with SF otherwise accept joint rule.

  • dwatch. Only seeing your earlier list now.
    WellCarson left the govt in no doubt about his displeasure at that. I well remember the appearance on Nolan by Paisley that night at the end of the month which started with him and Adams at the table. He called it blackmail. odd thing was that the same afternoon Paisley was in Dublin telling Bertie he saw no threat from that quarter. Molto curioso.

  • dwatch

    ardmajel55, Indeed the rapor between Ian Paisley & Bertie Ahern in 2007 became a different relationship than between James Craig, UUP leader from 1921 to 1940 & Eamond De Valera. One wonders if the pro treaty forces had won the civil war and Michael Collins survived, would relationships across the border been more congenial.

  • “Remembering it was the Orange Order which formed the UUP in 1905”

    dwatch, I thought that Ulster Unionism was the fusion of Conservative and Liberal Unionist interests and that the Orange Order was the vehicle that was used to advance the cause of Ulster Unionism. Carson and the leading Liberal Unionist, Thomas Sinclair, were two of the key strategists yet AFAIK neither was in the OO.

  • Scáth Shéamais

    One wonders if the pro treaty forces had won the civil war

    They did.

  • dwatch

    Nevin, because Carson & Sinclair were liberal Unionists as were many other Protestant Liberal (Whigs) (who built the reform club in Belfast to hold meetings) joined the UUP shortly before and after partition this does not alter the fact that it was the Orange Order which formed the UUC in 1905 which in turn was the ruling arm of the new Ulster Unionist Party. The Orange order only broke their link with the UUP in 2005. Read info inclosed:

    The Orange Institution and the Ulster Unionist Council
    http://www.grandorangelodge.co.uk/history/Orange_Institution_Ulster_Unionist_Council.html

    Orange Order severs links to UUP
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4342429.stm

    One of the reason Carson (a Dublin Irish Unionist MP before becoming leader of the UUP in 1910) as did many UUP leaders after him (who were background members of the OO) did not particularly like the Orange Order was because the Orange Institution had so much power over and above them within the UUC & UUP.

  • “[had] Michael Collins survived, would relationships across the border been more congenial.”

    dwatch, Collins was killed in August 1922 and events in the previous June show that Collins was not in the mood for congeniality so far as either Unionists or the Irregulars were concerned.

  • dwatch

    Nevin, would Collins have supported articles 2 & 3 being wrote into the Irish constitution in 1937 (laying claim to Northern Ireland) after he had already signed the 1921 Anglo Irish Treaty, remembering such a claim only would harden Protestant Unionists to become even more resentful towards Catholic republicans in Northern Ireland.

  • dwatch

    I should have added, if Unionists became the such hated black Northerners then De Valera & articles 2 & 3 helped make them that way.

  • “it was the Orange Order which formed the UUC in 1905”

    dwatch, the OO website doesn’t make such a claim. The OO influence within Ulster Unionism appears to have increased after that time but the earlier convention and the later covenant were mainly Sinclair initiatives.

  • dwatch, Collins may have signed the treaty but, had it not been for the Civil War and his death, his moves indicate that he would have used direct action to remove NI from the political map, not staked a claim to it.

  • dwatch

    Nevin, not my supposition but please read the following:

    “Whenever the Ulster Unionist Council was formed in 1905, the Orange Institution played a leading role. From that point Orangemen played a prominent part in unionist politics.”

    http://www.grandorangelodge.co.uk/history/Orange_Institution_Ulster_Unionist_Council.htm

    As for Collins using direct action to remove NI from the political map by going to war had he lived. I doubt it, my opinion is he would have been far to busy trying to make the Irish Free State (later ROI) into a decent economic country to live in, were hundreds of thousands of the population did not have to emigrate overseas to find work, which happened throughout the time De Valera was in office. And funny enough is repeating itself once again after the collapse of Fianna Fail and the Irish government.

  • dwatch, that is an OO document so it’s hardly likely to downplay its role.

    Who do you suppose was supporting IRA actions, Regular and Irregular, in the territory that is NI prior to Collin’s death?

  • dwatch

    “dwatch, that is an OO document so it’s hardly likely to downplay its role.”

    Nevin, I don’t see any reason for the OO to mislead readers over this issue.

    “Who do you suppose was supporting IRA actions, Regular and Irregular, in the territory that is NI prior to Collin’s death?”

    The IRA has spilt that many times since 1916 its hard to keep track of which group is doing what. The easter republican parade in Derry/Londonderry unlike Belfast was supported by mostly dissident IRA members or supporters.

    “Declan Kearney told dissident republicans that there was no armed struggle to be finished . Speaking at the Easter commemorations which took place at Milltown Cemetery in west Belfast on Sunday, he said: “Make no mistake, there is no other IRA, here in Belfast or anywhere else”. So in that context you are saying that Collins would have used force after signing the Treaty in 1921 to remove NI from the political map, so if he were alive today and had been part of the SAA 2007 would he still be a member of the SF- IRA or a dissident member of the IRA?

    I can only go by what is written here by no doubt republicans

    Irish Republican Army (1922–1969)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army_(1922–1969)

  • tacapall

    Dwatch maybe you should read up on Micheal Collins. Maybe you should try and find out where the “Stepping stones policy” came from.

  • dwatch

    tacapall, there is enought on the internet to satisfy any curiosity I may have on Irish republicanism without spending money out of my tiny state pension on a book about Collins.

  • tacapall

    Well I’ll let you get on with it then Dwatch heres a pointer for you though.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/easterrising/profiles/po03.shtml

  • dwatch

    tacapall, thankyou.