Miami Showband: “Disturbing questions about collusive and corrupt behaviour”

Henry McDonald reports (John has more detail here) on the conclusion of the privately released HET report (they are all intended for the families) subsequently released via the Pat Finucane Centre into the killing of the Miami Showband on 31st July 1975. He notes:

The Het team said the murders raised “disturbing questions about collusive and corrupt behaviour”. It said the review “has found no means to assuage or rebut these concerns and that is a deeply troubling matter”.

Update: Pat Finucane Centre have released a copy of that part of the report relating to Robin Jackson

Though as Henry alludes, the membership of the gang who murdered the band members have long been beyond doubt, not least because two of them blew themselves up on the spot had dual membership of both state and non state forces:

The bogus army patrol comprised soldiers from the Ulster Defence Regiment and UVF members in Armagh. Members of the band were made to line up at the side of the road while one UVF member tried to hide a bomb on the bus. The plan was that the bomb would explode en route, killing everyone on board as it entered Dublin. But the bomb went off prematurely, killing Harris Boyle and Wesley Somerville, who were members of the UDR, as well as the UVF.

The focus of the press reporting though is:

The cold case police investigations unit, the Historical Enquiries Team (Het), found Robin Jackson was linked to the murders of three members of the Miami Showband in July 1975.

The pop group were on their way back to Dublin when their minibus was stopped by a fake army patrol near the border. The Het report found that Jackson, a member of loyalist paramilitary group the Ulster Volunteer Force from North Armagh, had been linked to one of the murder weapons by his fingerprints. But Jackson later claimed in police interviews he had been tipped off by a senior Royal Ulster Constabulary officer to lie low after the killings.

Without seeing the the hard core of the report (let me know if you spot it anywhere?) it is hard to draw too many hard and fast conclusions. Collusion is a possibility (Finucane Centre has some interesting background on official British concerns about the UDR around this time), but so too is the likelihood these actions were about preserving an ‘informer asset’ inside the loyalist paramilitaries.

Three other members of the gang, James Somerville, Thomas Crozier and James McDowell were also members of the UDR but these were all convicted at the time; which indicates the operation itself was unlikely to have been ordered at some level by the state.

, , ,

  • michael-mcivor

    thats right- the u.d.r was a bogus army-

  • John Ó Néill

    Mick, PFC posted up extracts relating to Jackson which I linked to the other day. The families offered to disclose more detailed extracts to journos at their press conference.

  • Michael McIvor. Bogus is exactly the word for that, especially since the then Unemployed Dregs of Riffraff was set up conveniently just after the B Specials were ‘disbanded’. The net to catch the specials was ready and waiting for them in late ’69/70.

  • dwatch

    “which indicates the operation itself was unlikely to have been ordered at some level by the state.”

    Mick, not only was it unlikely, but what would be the purpose for, or benefit to the state, in murdering a bunch of innocent musicians in the Miami Showband?

  • Mick Fealty

    Mickey, can we try to confine this conversation to serious comment, rather than political slogans?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    “The bogus army patrol ”

    It was not a bogus army patrol at all, all those identified to date were members of the Britsh Army.

    “Three other members of the gang, James Somerville, Thomas Crozier and James McDowell were also members of the UDR but these were all convicted at the time; which indicates the operation itself was unlikely to have been ordered at some level by the state. ”

    Very few if any person at all has ever claimed that members of Briish Intelligence and their various military units actually turned up at the local UVF or UDA meetings, identified themselves and then gave a list of operations for the next week.
    These people would have enlisted for instance, the likes of Jackson, to act as a conduit for their plans.

    In cases like the Miami murders, with British Army involvement prematurely exposed, sufficient distance could then be put between those who planned the operation and the footsoldiers. All the while the main conduit remained a protected species. Whether that be with the help of the military or indeed the RUC.

    There is every reason to believe that had the bomb exploded as intended it would, as other bombings had previously, an effect on 26 county security police. That being the case there is every likelihood it was ordered at a higher level.

  • Mark

    ” not only was it unlikely , but what would be the purpose for , or benefit to the state , in murdering a bunch of innocent musicians in the Miami Showband ” .

    What was the purpose for , or benefit to the state , in murdering dozens of innocent people in Dublin and Monaghan the previous year ?.

    I seem to remember an interview with a surviving member who recalled how Fran O Toole got two bullets in the face because of his ” pretty boy looks ” .

    For God and Ulster ……..

  • The Pat Finnucane Centre made an hour long presentation to the SDLP Conference last month. Murders and Colusion in the “Mid Ulster” area.
    Slugger cameras/recording devices unfortunately were not working properly or the whole thing could be recorded including this particular case.
    The format was usually to tell the story thru the voice of “weapons” used.
    In this case…..and indeed others….it was very convincing….much more than I thought it would be.

    But in the end I think its only important that we “know” these things. Absolute proof or Reports from HET or elsewhere dont really add anything.
    There are two levelsof “knowing”. One the absolute proof……”closure” some would call it which inevitably annoys some as much as it validates others.
    The other level of “knowing” is the way that even the dogs in the street “know”. And the Miami Showband Case is/was surely one of those.
    Theres nothing to be gained by mentioning aloud the names of people who were only spoken of in a hushed and more legalistic way, ten, twenty, thirty years ago.
    Elevating cases from one level of “knowing” (usually by one community) to another level of “knowing” (or grudging acceptance) by two communities is all fine and dandy…….but we should have been listening a lot closer to the Miami incident…….and Claudy……..and Bloody Sunday…..McGurks…..Ballymurphy……..Kingsmills……..and so on.
    There is no community redemption here in suddenly accepting the level of knowledge that really our hearts told us was probably true all those years ago.

    Has anyone really just woken up to the reality of what happened in these and other cases? Didnt we always “know”?
    Certainly relatives might be validated in these cases.
    They might even need this kind of closure.
    Shame on the perpetrators and cover up merchants……of Bloody Sunday, Bloody Friday, Claudy.
    But shame on two broader communities for being wilfully blind to it all……..and wilfully deaf……….and for trying to make OURSELVES victims that need something like this to tell us the Truth.

  • dwatch

    “It was not a bogus army patrol at all, all those identified to date were members of the Britsh Army.”

    Quite, but unfortunately most non service people (Catholic & Protestant) are ignorant of how Soldiers are employed in the British Army. The UDR was a part time regiment of the British army recruited for the period of “Operation Banner” 1970/2007. Unlike regular soldiers (who were watch on stop on week in week out who lived, slept & messed in Army barracks) 95% UDR part timers only did one or two official (8 to 12 hour) duties a week. The other 5% were WO, NCO’s & junior officers transferred from other regular regiments to train the UDR part timers. The rest of the time (when not on official duty) these part time UDR soldiers worked as civilians and lived in homes. with their family. Regular soldiers receive an annual wage ( with pension rights) while part timer UDR soldiers were paid on an hourly basis (with no pension rights). Unfortunately A small minority of UDR part timers (civilians) intermixed with UVF loyalists when off duty, and were involved with this horrendous murder of the Miami Showband.

  • sliabhluachra

    I am obviously missing something here. The UDR has a rap sheet longer than that of the Provos. Few would dispute they were murderous sectarians. John McGuffin used to use up a page of an Phoblacht every edtion cataloguing their crimes.
    When the Jackal died, most Irish papers carried extensive obituaries, detailing his links with the British Armed forces: how they trained and financed him and how they helped him smuggle weapons in to Ireland to kill Catholics and “bad Provos” such as the Cappagh Gun Club.
    The security foces got guys with heads on their shoulders – King Rat, The Jackal, the Nutting Swquad – and used them for their own ends.
    Given that there is nothing new in all this, why the furore by the state-santioned HET?
    Also, I imagined the Miami deal was to pain the Miami as Provo bombers when their truck would blow up shortly after they were stopped. Of course, it blew up earlier than expected. The idea was to stop showbands and others invading Ulster. Part of the Save Ulster from Sodomy and Big Tom movement you could say.
    And of course, if showbands stopped visiting, then the Occupied Six would be less British. Same reason to shoot GAA types.

  • andnowwhat

    Mark

    If you watch the video I posted, Des Mc Alea recounts that the police asked him if there was a woman in the band. Obviously he told them there was not but surmised it was Fran O’ Toole they were talking about.

  • andnowwhat

    A guy posted a link on P.ie that was purporting to be on behalf of a loyalist group. It started with some Ervinesc crap about innocents that were killed by them and then went on to list their legitimate victims which included GAA members and SDLP members/activists.

  • Mark

    andnowwhat ,

    Just watched the video . It’s amazing how some seasoned observers are still in denial about what British Intelligence got up to / gets up to / will continue to get up to ……….

  • dwatch

    ” John McGuffin used to use up a page of an Phoblacht every edtion cataloguing their crimes.”

    Did John McGuffin record this massacre in Phoblacht sliabhluachra ?

    Kingsmill massacre. IRA murders 10 innocent Protestants.

    The Kingsmill massacre occurred on January 5, 1976 when ten Protestant men were killed just outside the village of Kingsmill in south Armagh, Northern Ireland by Irish republicans IRA. The Kingsmill massacre was one of the worst single incidents in a period of severe sectarian violence during the Troubles, in Northern Ireland. January 5, 1976, a Ford Transit mini-bus carried Protestant textile workers travelling home from work. The Provisional IRA South Armagh Brigade stopped the van and shot the men in cold blood with Armalite rifles, SLRs, a 9mm pistol and an M1 carbine, a total of 136 rounds were fired in less than a minute. No one was ever charged in relation to the Kingsmill killings.

  • galloglaigh

    Dwatch

    Your last comment is comparing an IRA atrocity the that of the UDR massacre outside Banbridge. Wasn’t one as bad as the other (both the killings and the people responsible)?

  • Mick Fealty

    Pat Finucane Centre have just added this report at 2 this afternoon. It’s the detail from the HET report regarding Jackson: http://www.patfinucanecentre.org/cases/miami/miami_jackson.pdf

  • RepublicanStones

    Has anyone ever been able to explain the mysterious english accent present at both Miami Showband and Kingsmill massacres?

  • sherdy

    How could the UDR have been anything other than rotten when the UDA and UVF advised their members to join the UDR to get their hands on weapons training and ‘intelligence’ which they could then use illegally?

  • dwatch

    “How could the UDR have been anything other than rotten”

    sherdy, the UDR were so rotten HM the Queen awarded the whole regiment the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross CGC (2nd to the VC Victoria Cross) in 2006. Ulster Defence Regiment
    http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.org/ulster_defence_regiment.htm

    and thats why these wonderful statues were unveiled in outside the Linen Museum in Lisburn City recently this year.
    BBC News – New statue in memory of UDR is unveiled in Lisburn http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13744058

  • PaulT

    dwatch, even by slugger standards thats an outstanding example of both feet in your mouth.

    How about these medals

    http://www.irishmedals.com/1921.html

  • dwatch

    “How about these medals”.
    Mickey duck junk unnamed bling, this says it all here:

    NUMBERS ISSUED : 15,224 medals with bar and 47,644 without bar have been issued up to 1989. Authentication is virtually impossible as they were all issued and presented un-named. There were medals that were presented posthumously that were ‘named’ and numbered’ but verification is impossible and should be treated with caution if offered for sale.

    http://www.irishmedals.com/1921.html

  • sherdy

    Dwatch – Possibly you haven’t seen the statues of Saddam Hussein, Joe Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Nelson in Dublin’s O’Connell Street – where are they now?

  • galloglaigh

    dwatch

    Hitler was fond of handing out gallantry awards – but does that mean they were honourable men now that they had such awards?

  • dwatch

    Dwatch – “Possibly you haven’t seen the statues of Saddam Hussein, Joe Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Nelson in Dublin’s O’Connell Street – where are they now?”

    sherdy, what mickey duck outfit is going to remove this statue? Could you be referring to the dissident IRA?

    BBC News – New statue in memory of UDR is unveiled in Lisburn http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13744058

  • dwatch

    “Hitler was fond of handing out gallantry awards – but does that mean they were honourable men now that they had such awards?”

    galloglaigh, so is the present Pope, was he not a member of Hitler youth prior to serving Hitler in WW2?

    “the only statue in Dublin to an Irish volunteer killed during World War 2” – was an IRA stooge who died on a Nazi U-boat! Sinn Fein and the IRA’s support for tyranny
    http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.tyranny.html

  • dwatch

    galloglaigh, lets get some facts straight, “ALL” 50,000 men who served in the UDR & three home battalions of the RIR from 1969 to 2007 were not a rotten bunch, but all IRA, INLA, UVF, UDA and other terrorists who planted numerous bombs, shot and murdered the state’s citizens throughout that period were !!!A ROTTEN BUNCH OF STINKING BAST@RDS!!

  • dwatch

    galloglaigh,
    furthermore without a few bad apples (that happen to be in all military regiments & police, (and other official organisations & institutions) had it not of been for the good work (road blocks etc) done by the UDR, RUC and other Army Regiments during “Operation Banner” the casualty figures would have been in their tens if not hundreds of thousands instead of the few thousand who died over a period of 36/37 years.

  • carl marks

    it’s truly amazing just looked at this post and there is dear old Dwatch trying to make the rather weird point, that because they were given medals the UDR must have been a wonderful bunch of blokes, then no longer able to defend his argument goes along the approved route of a lot of unionist posters on this site and has a go at republicans.
    The UDR ( and its daddy the B specials ) is regarded as a disgraced force by everyone ( including the British) but NI unionists, who cannot admit that in our little war both sides were as bad as the other, this is just another example of the same nonsense we got when Gusty Spence died and unionism tried to pretend he never existed (no comment in the newsletter), or when we see the “old UVF” been honoured, or when we see a group of thugs with flutes named after a loyalist assassin,

  • fordprefect

    I have to laugh, when it is suggested in previous posts that there was no such thing as “collusion” . Of course there was/is and anyone thinking otherwise is an idiot. The Brits did it in every country they ever invaded. In Kenya (lately), they admitted that they made stuff up, you know, “top hole old boy, what have those nasty Kenyans been up to now” . Then it came out that they were torturing and murdering Kenyans with the full blessing of the Brit Government. So, anyone who thinks that, that kind of thing didn’t go on here needs their head looked at!

  • dwatch

    “The UDR ( and its daddy the B specials ) is regarded as a disgraced force by everyone”

    carl marks, believes everyone believes what he believes.
    What arrogant ignorance.

  • the future’s bright, the future’s orange

    I guess it all depends on your definition of collusion:

    – does having an informer in the gang = colllusion?
    – does having prior knowedge of the attack = collusion?
    – or is collusion just the organisation of such attacks?

    Everyone will have their own opinion but I doubt anyone will ever be satisfied by these enquiries.

  • carl marks

    dwatch (profile) says:
    17 December 2011 at 11:50 am

    “The UDR ( and its daddy the B specials ) is regarded as a disgraced force by everyone”

    carl marks, believes everyone believes what he believes.
    What arrogant ignorance.

    Dear Dwatch please have a look at what the British government has said about the UDR/RIR, also check out amnesty international and the work done by the American government on this subject..
    also in my spare time i am involved in a local charity one member is a retired middle ranking retired British army officer who was transferred to the RIR when it was formed and his brief was to remove the connection between it and the loyalist terror groups, when he took one his new post he was shocked at the level of sectarianism in the RIR and the amount of dual membership between that group and the loyalists.
    .

  • dwatch

    Dear Dwatch please have a look at what the British government has said about the UDR/RIR, also check out amnesty international and the work done by the American government on this subject..”

    How can I look at something which you have not put up any official documented evidence to read?

    Regards your story about a retired middle ranking Army Officer. First of I all I don’t believe it and secondly neither you or your make believe friend have any knowledge of the renaming, joining together, or interlinking different British Army regiments throughout its 400 year history. It is still happening today.

  • carl marks

    dwatch
    Regards your story about a retired middle ranking Army Officer. First of I all I don’t believe it and secondly neither you or your make believe friend have any knowledge of the renaming, joining together, or interlinking different British Army regiments throughout its 400 year history. It is still happening today.

    Wow Mick am i been called a liar here. and by Dwatch of all people.

  • carl marks

    dwatch
    as regards documentation go to the links at the top of the thread and mentioned in a post by Mick Fealty at16 December 2011 at 6:04 pm

    you could also try reading anything else but the daily mail.

  • galloglaigh

    Sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting “la la la la la la la” doesn’t change the fact that the UDR were a sectarian bunch of thugs!

  • galloglaigh

    And how many reports and apologies from the MOD and various Prime Ministers will it take for dwatch to give up the ghost?

  • dwatch

    One can always tell when republican supporters have lost their argument. They start being silly and make cynical statements like: Sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting “la la la la la la la”, or “you could also try reading anything else but the daily mail.” or “thats an outstanding example of both feet in your mouth.” yawnnnnnnn, its time for my afternoon nap.

  • galloglaigh

    Yeah dwatch

    And so is flipping a thread around to make republicans out to be worse than the Crown forces. But in reality, one was as bad as the other!

    Sweet dreams xox

  • Cynic2

    “flipping a thread around to make republicans out to be worse than the Crown ”

    Oh you poor things.

    Of course we all agree with you that Threads are classifed as either Pro PIRA murderers or Anti PIRA Murderers and no comments are allowed that disturb the narrative. We dont wnat anyone challenging the offical version of Republican MOPERY and other opinions must therefore be stifled.

  • galloglaigh

    Cynic2

    dwatch is, on the one hand defending the UDR members who massacred the Miami Showband, and on the other, is saying that the Kingsmill massacre is “one of the worst single incidents in a period of severe sectarian violence during the Troubles”.

    Loyalist MOPERY…

  • Reader

    galloglaigh: dwatch is, on the one hand defending the UDR members who massacred the Miami Showband, and on the other, is saying that the Kingsmill massacre is “one of the worst single incidents in a period of severe sectarian violence during the Troubles”.
    Could you supply the timestamp where dwatch defended the murderers? The murderers were surely among the “bad apples” (17th December 10:48)
    And by any measure, Kingsmills was one of the worst single incidents, wasn’t it? Approximately twice as bad as the Miami Showband massacre, for a start.

  • Alan N/Ards

    galloglaigh

    How many former members of the UDR do you actually know? I never served in the regiment , but my father served in it on a part time basis for a number of years. He doesn’t have a sectarian bone in his elderly body. I never once heard a sectarian word come out of his mouth as a child, teenager, youth. I’m now the wrong side of 50 and he is still the non sectarian old soldier. He served in the TA during the 50’s and 60’s and early 70’s alongside many RC’s. He joined up because he saw it as his duty. He never had and still doesn’t have time for loyalist paramiltaries, OO or any kind of rabblerousers. I’m kind of proud of him. He has never insulted anyone because of their religion or politics let alone murdered anybody. I would say there were quite a few like him in the UDR.

  • Alan N/Ards,

    Your Da sure sounds to be a good guy and you should be proud of him.

  • galloglaigh

    Approximately twice as bad as the Miami Showband massacre, for a start

    Well that just shows your mentality… Sad!

    Alan

    My point is, that the UDR men who carried out the Miami Showband, were not a one off. I’m sure the UDR had some very nice people, your father included. But the government, and the MOD knew that members were up to no good (to say the least). Recently uncovered documents state that, in the words of the government at the time. This gang was not the only UDR/UVF gang in this state. UDR HQ did nothing to prevent these actions at the time of the massacre. The British government have a lot to answer for in how it led its counterinsurgency. Sorry if I offended, but the vast majority of Catholics who had noting to do with any political organisation share my opinion. It’s up to political unionism and the British government to tell what they know, and change the perception of nationalism!

  • Barnshee

    The British government have a lot to answer for in how it led its counterinsurgency”

    Its fraction of what the roman catholic community in NI have to answer for i the mdecades of support for the sectarian murder gang AKA the IRA

  • galloglaigh

    The entire Catholic community supported the IRA. And I suppose you can prove that?

    I could easily say the the entire Protestant community supported the UVF and the UDA – but then I would just be a bigot!

  • dwatch

    “The entire Catholic community supported the IRA. And I suppose you can prove that?”

    galloglaigh, I wouldn’t say “entire” but I would say the majority of the Catholic community in Northern Ireland support Sinn Fein which is the political wing of the IRA. Its therefore obvious this same majority of the Catholic community also supported the IRA when they murdered the majority of the 1,857 civilians who died during the troubles.

  • Alan N/Ards

    galloglaigh

    What I find annoying is that good men who have never broken the law and behaved in a civillised manner while serving in the RUC and UDR, are having their good name tarnished because of the lawbreakers. The vast majority of people who served in these orginisations, were decent law abiding people, who deserve our respect. The lawbreakers need to be condemned as such not the honest man/woman who went on duty without a balaclava to hide their face. The blanket condemnation and the tarring of eveyrone in that regiment as sectarian is wrong. It is not a crime to be a protestant and a unionist/loyalist, just as it is not a crime to be a RC and a nationalist/republican. It is however a crime to murder regardless of your background. Thankfully the vast majority of people here stayed within the law during our dark days.

  • Submariner

    “The entire Catholic community supported the IRA. And I suppose you can prove that?”

    galloglaigh, I wouldn’t say “entire” but I would say the majority of the Catholic community in Northern Ireland support Sinn Fein which is the political wing of the IRA. Its therefore obvious this same majority of the Catholic community also supported the IRA when they murdered the majority of the 1,857 civilians who died during the troubles.

    Dwatch the majority of the 1857 civillians killed during the troubles were killed by Loyalists. Its what they specialised in.

  • galloglaigh

    dwatch

    I think Sinn Fein only gained the majority support after the exit of John Hume and the peace process. It’s a bit like the DUP – When they stopped saying no and never, and with the self destruction of the UUP, they gained the majority support. But sure you’ve your mind made up and that’s that.

    It still doesn’t deflect away from the HET’s report. The more reports come out, the more the narrative changes.

  • Reader

    galloglaigh: Well that just shows your mentality… Sad!
    Are you objecting to the arithmetic, or to my presumption that innocent victims should be treated equally?

  • galloglaigh

    Reader

    How can you treat victims with equality, when you say some killings were twice as bad as others? Especially when it’s a case of ‘ours was worse than yours’. That just shows the mentality of thought.

  • dwatch

    galloglaigh, there is no comparision between the support for politicians at Westminister, assembly & local councils the PUP/UVF received from the Unionist community at elections to the support of SF/IRA from the Republican community after the signing of the 2006 St Andrews agreement. Remember one reason most working class Unionists refused (and still refuse) to support the PUP/UVF to this present day is because a minority of loyalists have not surrendered their weapons. Unlike SF/IRA who put on a well dramatized show disposing of weapons on TV in the ROI (to please Blair, Ahern,& Paisley) many Unionists still do not believe all IRA guns & Semtex were destroyed otherwise the dissent IRA would not be in existence or have the guns they have today.

  • galloglaigh

    dwatch

    Nice try sir, but the DUP and the UUP were supported by the UVF and the UDA for a generation. Drumcree, Anglo-Irish Agreement, Ulster Workers Council Strike. The two parties were the de-facto political wings of the loyal terror organisations, and they all worked hand in hand to ‘keep Ulster British’!

  • dwatch

    galloglaigh, Utter nonsense, thats like saying the IRA supported the SDLP. The DUP, UUP, & SDLP have always been totally against violence, & murder throughout the troubles.

    I attended a large meeting a couple of years ago in West Belfast were one of the speakers was Alban Maginness SDLP. He asked Gerry Adams and other SF members present why they went down the road of the gun & violence for 30 + years when they could have easily followed the road of the ballot box like the SDLP and as they are doing now? There was silence all round.

  • dwatch

    galloglaigh, Oh! I forgot to mention Gerry Adams could not have answered Alban Maginness’s question after all he has told everyone he was never in the IRA.

  • galloglaigh

    The DUP, UUP… have always been totally against violence, & murder throughout the troubles

    It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt!

    Yes the SDLP did not support violence, but to suggest the UUP, and especially the DUP were akin to the stance of the SDLP is utter nonsense. In fact, it’s pure pish!

    William Craig’s Vanguard had the support of the loyal terror organisations.

    The Ulster Workers Council Strike in the 70’s, organised by the UUP, the DUP, the UDA and the UVF heightened tensions, and led to an increase in the numbers of innocent Catholics being murdered.

    DUP members set up a unionist terrorist organisation, who along with the UDA, the UVF, and MI5, shipped weapons and ammunition from South Africa, after the group set up by DUP members sold weapons technology to South Africa.

    The rally at the Ulster Hall in opposition to the Anglo-Irish agreement was organised by the DUP, and was marshalled by the UDA and the UVF. This event again, led to heightened tensions, and led to an increase in the number of innocent Catholics being murdered by Unionist terrorists.

    Previous to the Drumcree stand-off, Willie McCrea, a DUP MP, stood on a platform with one of the most notorious sectarian animals born on Irish soil. McCrea defended Billy Wright and supported his right to stay in Norn Iron, even though his organisation were killing innocent Catholics as presents to the Rat scumbag.

    During the Drumcree stand-off, the Orange Order, the DUP and the UUP welcomed Wright’s bunch of murders to gain support from unionist terrorists. They also welcomed another notorious sectarian scumbag, Johnny Adair and his merry bunch of murdering bigots.

    So don’t try and tell me that the DUP and the UUP were against the men of violence. They used their support to heighten tensions, which resulted in the deaths of many, many innocent Catholics.

    And before I forget, please stop defending unionist terror, by pointing out republican terror. It makes you look like a fool!

  • galloglaigh

    By the way dwatch

    You’re using a question asked of Gerry Adams, as if it has something to do with me. How about the question Gerry Kelly asked Nelson McCauseland “Where are the guns held by the Ulster Resistance?” which of course Nelson refused to acknowledge never mind answer!

  • Reader

    galloglaigh: How can you treat victims with equality, when you say some killings were twice as bad as others? Especially when it’s a case of ‘ours was worse than yours’. That just shows the mentality of thought.
    3 victims of the Miami Showband massacre.
    10 victims of the Kingsmills massacre.
    So therefore the Kingsmills massacre was over three times as bad. (If you treat the victims with equality.) I underestimated the difference in my earlier post. You still complained!

  • Davy McFaul

    If the Unionist electorate so abhor the men of violence isn’t it strange that they didn’t reject the DUP & UUP at the polls after both put Hughie Smyth into the Belfast Mayor’s seat ( five months before the UVF ceasefire) and Frank McCoubrey into the Dep Mayor’s seat while his colleagues were murdering and destroying the Shankill?

  • Just a thought. Adams has always denied being in the IRA. Has anyone asked him the specific question “Were you a member of the Provisional IRA ?” or whatever they officially term themselves.

  • galloglaigh

    Joe

    The dogs in the street know that answer, but I wonder would some DUP and UUP current and former members be comfortable with a similar question?

  • galloglaigh

    3 victims of the Miami Showband massacre… 10 victims of the Kingsmills massacre

    Again a very short sighted post. What about the families? They are also victims. If one person was killed, that is as much a tragedy as 100 people being killed. But back to the point of ‘ours was worse than yours’, the mentality shines through; we suffered more than useins!

  • Decimus

    galloglaigh,

    Still working hard on your rewriting of history dissertation I see. Sadly no one outside of dronesville and the green beer regions of the USA* agrees with you. Trying to equate constitutional politicians with SF or the security forces with PIRA is laughable.

    *Greatly reduced since 2011.

  • galloglaigh

    Decimus

    I found a book in the library when I was a teenager. It had a photograph in it with Willie McCrea and Billy Wright on a platform in solidarity. I can’t remember the title of the book, but I definitely seen it, and this is accurate. It had a number of related photographs, that followed the trend of unionist politicians cosying up to their loyalist terror buddies… and so on… and so on 🙂 🙂 🙂

  • Decimus

    galloglaigh,

    Bully for you.

  • RepublicanStones

    Sadly no one outside of dronesville and the green beer regions of the USA* agrees with you. Trying to equate constitutional politicians with SF or the security forces with PIRA is laughable.

    it would be laughable if someone could show how Unionism was always as vociferous against state murder as it was against non-state actors. to cross post a comment of mine from an earlier thread on this issue…

    And this post explains why unionists played hard to get with loyalists. They’ve had their own full standing paid armed forces since the creation of the state. The attempt by some to paint nationalists as being less moral because the shinners achieved electoral success within that constituency ignores the reality of collusion. British armed forces always had the fullest support and protection of the unionist community. Which is why you have never heard any Unionist leader demand the British govt open the books on collusion. Instead we get the fruit analogy, no matter how many instance and times the issue comes up.

    I’m still waiting for the evidence where Unionist leaders have called on the British govt to open the books to independent investigation on collusion. Perhaps Decimus has a link….

  • Decimus

    RepublicanStones,

    Your basic problem is that the accusations which you make about the security forces remain unproven, whilst the fact that SF’s military wing were responsible for the majority of murders here is indisputable.

  • RepublicanStones

    Can someone explain the terms ‘state’ and ‘non-state’ to Decimus?

    (Still waiting on that link)

  • Decimus

    RepublicanStones,

    I’m aware of both terms.

    Link to what?

  • RepublicanStones

    I’m aware of both terms

    Aware? But evidently not in possession of the meaning.

    Link to what?

    Thought not…good night.

  • Decimus

    RepublicanStones,

    Good luck.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Submariner,
    Just a point of information on the civilian deaths: the figure I have for 1969-98 is 1,856 killed, of which Loyalists killed 873 – so they didn’t kill most of the civilians in the Troubles. Loyalists did kill more civilians than Republicans did (735).

    While I have the stats out, why not share some of the other interesting ones (ignore if not interested!) …

    In 1975, the year of the Miami Showband killing, the stats for who did what were:
    Security forces – killed 7 people
    Loyalist paramilitaries – killed 121 people
    Republican paramilitaries – killed 125 people.

    1975 was therefore one of those exceptional years in which Republicans did not do a majority of the killing (though they weren’t far off). It was the only year that happened in the whole of the 1970s and 1980s. (The other years when Republican killing was under 50 per cent of the total deaths were 1969, 1992-4 and 1997).

    1975 was the third most deadly year of the Troubles after 1972 (479 deaths) and 1976 (295 deaths). The six worst years of the Troubles were consecutive: 1971-1976 inclusive.

    Taking the Troubles overall, Republicans out-killed Loyalists by more than 2:1; and out of the 30 calendar years of the Troubles 1969-1998, Republicans killed more than Loyalists in 25 of them.

    In terms of overall killings, including those by security forces, Republicans had an overall share of the deaths of 65% or over in 15 of the 30 years from 1969-1998. In terms of averages, the overall of mean of Republican killings was 58.7% and the median was 65%.

  • Decimus

    1975 was therefore one of those exceptional years in which Republicans did not do a majority of the killing (though they weren’t far off). It was the only year that happened in the whole of the 1970s and 1980s. (The other years when Republican killing was under 50 per cent of the total deaths were 1969, 1992-4 and 1997).

    MU,

    1975 also happens to be the year in which they were supposed to be on ceasefire.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Decimus,
    That is funny that 75 was a ‘ceasefire’ year (in a very black way).

    That Republicans still killed 125 people also shows how much bigger the scale of the Troubles were in the first 6-7 years compared to the rest. They killed 154 in 1976 but after that, in the 22 years of their campaign, the most killings they managed in one year was 102 (in 1979). In the 1970-1976 period, they were averaging 134 per year; their average for 1977-98 was 50 killings per year, so it fell by just under two thirds.

    The Loyalist drop-off was similar in scale after 1976, obviously at a lower level but with a more dramatic reduction. Their 1970-76 average was 83, but from 1977-98 they averaged around 18 murders per year. So it fell by around

    The deaths attributable to the security forces followed a similar pattern, though at a much, much lower level. They were responsible for 30 deaths a year in the 1970-76 period, but in the rest of the Troubles averaged under 7 per year.

    So the Troubles from 1977 onwards had a killing pattern of around 67% Republican, 24% Loyalist and 9% security forces. But in the fiercest period of 1970-76, the gap was narrower: 54% Republican, 32% Loyalist and 12% Security Forces. Enough death stats for now, it’s Christmas!

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    sorry, for the sake of completeness, the Loyalist reduction in killing rate post 1976 was around 78 per cent. Missed that off before.

  • lcockrammicha

    Scrapbooks are an ideal way towards preserve recollection and restore them for the purpose of later referrals or employ.They allow for a escape down storage area lane devoid of struggling of what someone got said on a particular even or what we should were wearing against your first prom celebration.These pleasure books have precious recollection safe and tucked away in a corner till the moment you are ready to revisit and share these folks with a person.By among them our thoughts in a scrapbook, not only how can you hold memories for a long time but can also utilize cannot time around doing a thing creative and even meaningful.

    Given the choices that are there in the market today, getting started with the process can effort you more than.Craft stores have a bundle of varied products to offer you starting because of complete kits that are included with the performs, stickers, colorful paper, a wide range of colored paintball guns, paint as well as glitters.To top the lot you will see choices that you may need to make on know about book you want to use for your personal cherished thoughts.

    But there is no need to be worried about such decisions imagine you’re definitely need not buy the whole set of products to be found in the shop to set up.You could start in a quick book ?n which to keep pictures along with pen down your thinking or choose an record.You could also choose an important scrapbook fashioned specially for the purpose that regularly have various ideas and sections to assist the course of action.The the first thing that you need to do want to check about before settling on the guide is that it should be sturdy and should be able to stand this test of your.For timeless safekeeping today there are digital choices for scrapbooks and also could get a scrapbook template and even load it within your personal webpage to discuss.

    Beyond the course, you should pick out a few from the various options that you have to get one started.If you feel that you would like to add further aspects to all your scrapbook, you can always come back to the come up with store ever again.Some questions that you need to ask one self before getting going are how you will customise the e-book and how will safeguard the illustrations or photos.Personalizing typically the scrapbook is an easy task since all that you need to do might be be by yourself and choose the accessories which you want.However, while deciding to retain your memories ensure that you use urate crystals free paper to maintain it harmless from pesky insects.