The truth and damn lies


I was chatting recently with a colleague in work about the Pat Finucane case and the fact that there wasn’t going to be a full Public Inquiry into the murder of the solicitor. It should be noted [if anyone missed the fact] that Ken Barrett was charged and convicted of the murder in 2004. As the discussion progressed about the minutia of such a process he simply said,

Lots of people know the truth here [Northern Ireland] – they’re just not telling it

He went on to mention David Kelly  [the man whose father served in the Irish Army and was murdered by the IRA in 1983] and is in caption, my friend continued,

McGuinness knows the truth; same as the Brits – but do you think he’ll be squealing?

It’s an interesting process we’re now living in. Plenty of people know the truth about the innumerable murders in Northern Ireland but seem shy to tell it.

I agree that the tail end of the Finucane case was handled badly by Cameron, even I thought he was about to announce a public inquiry having brought the families to Downing Street. I also sympathise with the family in wanting to know the truth. The Finucanes decision not to participate in the review is disappointing.

Patrick Corrigans post certainly put forward his case for another public inquiry. Whilst I didn’t comment on the post at the time I thought it a little odd that he would so heavily criticise an independent QC who is so imminently thought of by the UN. Desmond DeSilva helped bring to justice Charles Taylor [the former dictator of Liberia] and negotiated on behalf of the UNDP to secure warrants for war criminals in Serbia. Patrick went on to say,

When a lawyer is murdered in any country, it should be a matter of great public concern, seen rightly as an attack on the entire legal system

I’m not sure that lawyers are higher up the moral food chain than census takers, school teachers or policemen; or for that matter deserve truth and justice any more.

There are lots of families out there who want the truth and some justice. David Kelly is just one of them and I most sincerely hope he gets it. I’m sure the families of the disappeared would also like a few folks to ‘come clean’.  Ann Travers clearly believes that having Mary McArdle, the woman  convicted of the murder of her sister as she left Holy Mass, placed by Sinn Fein into a £90,000 government SPAD role does not equate to justice for her or her family.

I believe it was Gandhi who said

Truth never damages a cause that is just

Don’t hold your breath…

  • badger 3336

    There are about 1,800 unsolved murders associated with the so-called Troubles and included in this total is the murder of part time policeman David Murphy and his friends Keith Dowey and Norman Kendell, they were a party of wildfowlers who were all shot dead in November 1990. There was no inquiry. Pat Finucane’s widow Geraldine is lucky she has got the ear of the press and the television channels who are all too willing to highlight her husband’s murder . She is not special. Other widows, who have no-one to highlight the murders of their loved ones, continue to suffer in silence.

  • Hedley Lamarr

    “I’m not sure that lawyers are higher up the moral food chain than census takers, school teachers or policemen; or for that matter deserve truth and justice any more.”

    Nobody can deny that all people are equally entitled to truth and justice but it is an element of human rights law particularly in emergency situations such as the Troubles that lawyers who are killed by agents of the state (David Cameron admitted that there was collusion) should be highlighted as a particular shortcoming of justice. If only state sanctioned lawyers worked in a state we would get nowhere. Killing lawyers because of their work points goes to the whole essence of a society and the rule of law fades away.

    Others who are highlighted in the field of human rights are journalists, trade union leaders and other categories of people who for one reason or another put the hackles up state or non-state armed organisations.

    Any group of civilians who are by membership of a profession targeted particularly by people who are meant to uphold the law points to a deficiency in the apparatus of the state.

  • Mary Anna

    “This Must Never Be Allowed To Happen Again”

    A young man, David Kelly, from the Republic of Ireland had the guts to come out and speak out against the injustice that was inflicted upon him. He confronted Martin McGuinness about the murder of his father, Patrick Kelly. His father was a 35 year old private in the Irish Army who was killed by the IRA when he and others tried to rescue businessman Don Tidey who had been kidnapped by the IRA. Private Kelly was gunned down along with Garda Gary Sheenan in the rescue attempt in Co. Leitrim in 1983.
    The question is why are there not more David Kellys in Northern Ireland ? – people who are willing to confront the people and organisations responsible for their loss and pain. Perhaps there is a clue in McGuinness’s response to Mr Kelly – “that was 30 years ago”. In Northern Ireland, people are being constantly told to move on and draw a line in the sand by the very same people that perpetuated the violence and hatred. Bringing up the past is looked upon as somehow being against the peace process – it is not – it is merely victims and victims families looking for the truth of what happened to their loved ones and for those that inflicted that pain to face up to their responsibilities.

    Before history gets rewritten let us remind ourselves of just how many victims there were. In our conflict between 1969 and 2001 a total of 3526 were killed and those organisations responsible are listed below.

    Responsibility for killing[125]

    Responsible party No.
    Republican paramilitary groups 2057
    Loyalist paramilitary groups 1019
    British security forces 363
    Persons unknown 82
    Irish security forces 5
    Total 3526

    Now back to David Kelly and the lack of people like David Kelly in Northern Ireland. We in the North have been brow beaten and bullied into keeping quiet – exhausted from a dirty war and only too glad that there is some semblance of peace – the majority think it better to keep quiet and allow the perpetrators to rewrite history. A recent example of this type of bullying was when Martin McGuinness threatened to reveal secrets about Frank Hegarty that would embarrass the Hegarty family. Frank Hegarty was the MI5 agent that McGuinness was alleged to have lured back to his death in Derry.
    There has been much talk – well that is not entirely correct – some talk about the need for a truth commission. In my opinion this is just a smoke screen and a device for those who inflicted the pain to avoid facing up to the pain they caused – they don’t expect a truth commission or its terms of reference to ever be agreed but can deal with embarrassing questions by pronouncing their support for a commission. The nearest we had to a truth commission was the Bloody Sunday Enquiry and even then we never got the full truth – the Ministry of Defence stalled and obstructed the enquiry whenever they could and the IRA, in the form of Martin McGuinness, refused to tell all citing IRA confidentiality.
    I believe that if victims want truth and justice then they have to demand it because the vested interests in Stormont and Westminster are only concerned with self interest and self interest excludes truth and justice. There is a risk that victims will become forgotten and the reality of the conflict blurred and romanticised – increasing the risk that the denial of the past will doom us to repeat it. Take a look at the new young recruits to the UVF or dissident Republicans who are too young to have ever experienced the nastiness and heart break of troubles but are intent in reproducing them – romantic notions of being heroes for Ulster or Ireland.
    That is why victims have to take things into their own hands and confront those now in power and responsible for the pain.
    I believe that it would be a very powerful thing to do if relatives of those killed in the conflict, come together, each with a picture of their murdered love one and display them on mass.
    We have an, early, excellent opportunity presently, with the race to be President of Ireland. Martin McGuinness brought the northern aspect to it . The majority of the population in the Republic have no real idea as to what it was like to live through the troubles and the real consequences of it.
    The sight of so many of the victims from the troubles, in one place, with photographs of their loved ones, will bring home the enormity of the loss and pain, and shame the politicians into doing sometime meaningful about truth and justice.
    Families can take back their lives by standing up for their dead. Take our campaign to Stormont, Westminster and the Dail bring a picture of a loved one. Never forget the damage that has been done by a futile war. We do not need to forget or draw a line in the sand, what is needed is convictions, justice, and then true peace will follow. If we do not make a stand now, then we teaching the next generation it is ok to take a life and to hurt and harm because no one will ever be held accountable.

  • keano10

    “McGuinness knows the truth – same as the Brits, but do you think he’ll be squealing”.

    Does he? Does he really?

    I think the perception that Martin McGuinness knows about every single killing carried out by the IRA is not only naive, but frankly ludicrous. No matter what position he held, the unique cell structures introduced by the Provisionals meant that, in many cases, barely a handful of people were involved in individual attacks. These units mostly acted alone and without direct orders from central command.

    McGuinness has not denied his membership of the IRA and we all know what that entailed. But to pin every single attack on him is the stuff of nonsense…

  • Limerick

    keano,

    You are quite correct about that. Murdering individual Protestants would not have required prior clearance from Coco and the rest of the army council. It is the big ones that can be pinned on him with certainty. For instance do you seriously believe that the Provos would have planted bombs beside two war memorials on Remembrance day, or stuck a bomb with a short fuse in a packed fish shop without first of all getting clearance from OC Ireland? Of course not.

  • between the bridges

    keano..’McGuinness has not denied his membership of the IRA and we all know what that entailed.’ really? well as martyr won’t tell, maybe you will enlighten us?

  • Others who are highlighted in the field of human rights are journalists, trade union leaders and other categories of people who for one reason or another put the hackles up state or non-state armed organisations

    I guess the provos would fall under the category of “non-state armed organisations”?

    In which case vanhelsing’s point stands.

    Which specific international “human rights law” designates that examining the murders of lawyers, journalists and trade unionist leaders should somehow deserve more of our attention than that of census takers or school teachers?

  • Limerick

    the unique cell structures introduced by the Provisionals

    Keano,

    What was unique about them? They copied them from other terrorist organisations and they were totally counterproductive as they helped the British efforts to infiltrate them. Especially their unique tactic of having their terrorists debriefed by Freddie Scappaticci.

  • ranger1640

    Keano, your dear deputy leader couldn’t or wouldn’t tell the Saville inquiry everything. So what has he got to hide, and why will republicans not assist the HET, ala Mary McArdle?

    And a query I have about McGuinness’ claim of leaving the IRA in 74. Just how easy is it to leave the IRA. McGuinness makes it sound like the bhoy scouts, join to-day get all that terror training and terror intelligence and then leave the next day. Hardly creditable Marty.

  • I think some of the comments on this and other threads make it clear that, even if the “truth” is told, some people will not believe it. They are more comfortable with their personal “myths”.

  • Jimmy Sands

    Pat Finucane’s widow Geraldine is lucky

    A somewhat unconventional use of the word perhaps

  • keano10

    Ranger,

    Firstly he’s not my “leader”. Im not a member of Sinn Fein, im simply an ordinary punter who throws a vote their way every now and then. That vote is open. If they go off the the political path that I aspire to, then I’m off. Simple as.

    As it happens, I think they are doing a more than satisfactory job just now. Although personally, I would give Adams much more credit for the success of the strategic planning than McGuinness. Just my view and no-one else’s.

  • Limerick

    I would give Adams much more credit for the success of the strategic planning than McGuinness.

    Keano,

    And the handlers?

  • Mary Anna

    Those who deny the past a doomed to repeat It. Political language … is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and give an appearance of solidity to pure wind ” george Orwell.

  • Mary Anna

    Politicial language… is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectful, and give an appearance of solidity to pure wind ” George Orwell” Those who deny the truth are doomed to repeat it.

  • “included in this total is the murder of part time policeman David Murphy and his friends Keith Dowey and Norman Kendell, they were a party of wildfowlers who were all shot dead in November 1990.”

    David Murphy was a senior full-time Special Branch Detective Inspector.

  • Limerick

    David Murphy was a senior full-time Special Branch Detective Inspector.

    Ulick,

    He wasn’t in Special Branch, but your point was?

  • Jimmy Sands

    David Murphy was a senior full-time Special Branch Detective Inspector.

    Well that’s alright then.

  • keano10

    To be fair to Ulick, he was simply correcting a factual inaccuracy. Lead blogs should really be vetted thoroughly, bearing in mind that we seem to have already lost one lead blogger today.

  • Jimmy Sands

    I think we both know exactly what he was doing.

  • Limerick,
    yes he was and it’s obvious I’m simply correcting an inaccuracy in the post I quoted.

  • Mr E Mann

    Ranger, a *disgruntled* Provo who wanted to quit probably had to flee as far from NI as he could get. It’s probably safe to assume that, if it’s true that McG left the PIRA, there was a high-level decision that he could accomplish more as an SF politician than as a guerrilla commander. Undoubtedly, that decision would have been correct, which tends to lend credibility to this conjecture. The higher up a politician was in SF, the riskier it was for him to know about illegal operations, so McG might not have had a hard time getting a discharge, so to speak. It may or may not be true that he left the Provos, but I don’t find it hard to believe.

    Limerick, assuming PIRA did have a cell structure like that of, say, the Algerian NLF, how do you think it helped the Brits infiltrate them? Many underground organizations have found cell structures are very resistant to infiltration, although they introduce other problems. Scappaticci (and I have no idea whether he really was an informer) stood outside and above that structure, in the general staff; he would have been in place even if PIRA was organized in some other way.

  • padraigpearse

    When Rosa Parks sat on , on the bus refusing to give her seat up to white folks, she was not, by doing so claiming to be more superior to other African Americans by so doing. As Winston Churchill said about his oratory during World War 2, ‘I happened to be the roar of the lion’.

    Similiarly the widow of Mr Funucane is not being uppity by trying to find out the faceless men and women who conspired to kill her husband. For by so doing she happens to be the ‘roar’ of a very considerable constituency.

    Those who forget the past are destined to repeat it. Uncovering the nest of slimey crawling things that lodge under State secrecy is not a harmful enterprise but one that willbenfit us all. Rosa was right not to give up her seat on the bus, Mrs Finucane is right to hold very tightly onto her own.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Which specific international “human rights law” designates that examining the murders of lawyers, journalists and trade unionist leaders should somehow deserve more of our attention than that of census takers or school teachers?

    Because the State having a role in murdering defence lawyers is extremely serious. It means that the government acted knowingly to threaten the right of people to a fair trial. Which is part of pretty much any definition of human rights that you might care to mention.

    It’s depressing that this simple concept has to explained to people. Even more depressing that the widow of a murdered solicitor trying to find answers to these questions is described as “lucky”. I can’t get over the unbelievable callousness and plain disrespect of some people here who find it more important to try to justify the actions of a loyalist paramilitary murder gang than to understand why state involvement in the murder of solicitors is such a serious matter.

  • Hedley Lamarr

    O’Neill- Under UN mechanisms the independence of lawyers is a litmus test of compliance with human rights standards.

    Intervention into the independence of lawyers particularly through murder shows a lack of tolerance.

  • venhelsing, back up there a little.

    “Patrick Corrigans post certainly put forward his case for another public inquiry. Whilst I didn’t comment on the post at the time I thought it a little odd that he would so heavily criticise an independent QC who is so imminently thought of by the UN.”

    I did not “heavily criticise” Sir Desmond. Indeed, I described him as an “eminent QC” and, for the benefit of readers, I embedded the link to his wikipedia entry, which lists his many career achievements. I also noted, in passing, that Conor Burn MP, the current PPS to Hugo Swire, the Minister of State at the Northern Ireland Office, regards Sir Desmond to be a ‘loyal Conservative’. If you don’t think that all of this background information is useful or relevant, then so be it. But, please don’t misrepresent my views.

    Criticism of the government’s paper review is based on its utter inadequacy as an alternative to an effective, independent and impartial public inquiry.

    This is not about the integrity of Sir Desmond, it’s about the integrity of the process.

  • vanhelsing

    Lemarr and others

    Firstly I don’t buy the,

    “I’m a lawyer – therefore my treatment by the state is clearly a more defined marker as to whether the ‘state’ is in compliance with international HR standards”.

    I agree that if there was a widespread campaign by the state to murder a number of the judiciary and the press then perhaps you could start making a somewhat related case. This however is patently not the situation here and to paint it as such is disingenuous.

    In fact I find the arguement even distasteful. It denigrates the other ‘ordinary’ folk who were murdered [perhaps without state collusion] and those families and loved one don’t and won’t have any answers.

    My post was illustrating that some people [and parties] who are shouting the loudest for this Public Inquiry have lots of information that would be “really useful” in some unsolved murders in Northern Ireland.

    Lets start with the SPAD to the DCAL Minister giving up the gunmen who shot Mary Travers. Then we could move onto the gunmen who murdered 10 Protestant workmen in Kingsmill.

    If you think that there should be a full independent public inquiry on the Pat Finucane case then you should also be shouting loudly about the fact that terrorist organisations have harboured many uncharged murderers whose crimes have gone unpunished by the state.

    Justice for them could be full and swift if some folks touted.. but I go back to my original Gandhi quote

    “Truth never damages a cause that is just”

  • vanhelsing

    Patrick,

    You’re right I probably went a little heavy although you were clearly making inferences. I’ll leave the quote in here to correct,

    Patrick Corrigan

    “Instead, the knife was twisted a little further today, with Cameron and Paterson instead announcing a toothless review of the case files by eminent QC (and ‘loyal Conservative’, according to Conor Burns MP, once of this parish) Sir Desmond DeSilva.”

    Apologies

    VH

  • Thanks.

  • Neil

    Van Helsing,

    There are lots of families out there who want the truth and some justice. David Kelly is just one of them and I most sincerely hope he gets it. I’m sure the families of the disappeared would also like a few folks to ‘come clean’.

    Taking the above statement in the context of I’m not sure that lawyers are higher up the moral food chain than census takers, school teachers or policemen; or for that matter deserve truth and justice any more. I assume then that you support the families, Finucane included, to find the truth and to have justice?

    So what has he got to hide, and why will republicans not assist the HET, ala Mary McArdle?

    What do you mean ‘ala Mary McArdle’? Presuming you mean something like ‘regarding Mary McArdle’ what would you have Republicans tell the HET? The people involved have already been imprisoned and released, their time is served and even in your wildest fantasies you won’t be prosecuting and imprisoning someone over something for which they’ve already been prosecuted and imprisoned.

    Therein lies the problem that Unionists can’t seem to understand: the IRA and Republicans were pursued by the RUC and imprisoned by the justice system. The RUC were not pursued by the RUC (surprisingly) for their part in murders, very few soldiers saw the inside of a cell for their murders and this is why people want inquiries.

    Some people have had justice – the killers have been locked up already. Unfortunately the state, hands dripping with blood, has gotten off lightly. So far. Thanks to the bravery and determination of people like the Finucanes the truth will eventually out and the state will be held accountable.

    I’m happy for everyone, Unionist, Loyalist, Republican and other to have their inquiry. I have nothing to fear, I know what Republicans did (doesn’t everyone after all) and I’m well aware that many of those bombings were unjustifiable, but Republicans have never hidden the fact that they bombed or killed for a UI.

    The only people who try to hide their actions under a veneer of faux respectability are the British and some Unionists who try to pretend their community’s hands are clean. I have nothing to lose by the truth coming out – everyone knows our truth. The only real loser will be the British when we find out, yet again, that they comit war crimes in every country they colonise, right up to the present day in those coincidentally oil rich countries they keep invading. Going on for a million dead unarmed civilians. Our brave boys eh? Look on the brigvht side at least our brave boys had guns with which to defend themselves unlike the majority of their victims.

  • Cynic2

    Keano

    Last week you posted on here how as a SF voter you were a normal person who enjoyed tucking his daughter into bed this sitting down with his partner for cup of coffee and a chat. Today again you step up to the plate to defend Marty

    I am delighted that you take such enjoyment in such family issues. I do too. But let me put this to you.

    In 1978 a young girl called Lesley Gordon was murdered by PIRA. Her crime was that her father was in the UDR and ran her to school every day. She was 10 years old – probably about the same age your daughter is now it – but she never had the opportunity to grow up. The bomb under the car killed her and her father as they sat side by side. Her legs were blown off.

    The murder was committed by Frank Hughes who later starved himself to death on Hunger Strike. He is eulogised by your party. The attack was well planned and Hughes must have known that the child would be in the car – she was there every day. He simply didnt care. She was a Protestant and a legitimate target in his eyes.

    I would ask you every night for a week – just for one week – as you tuck your daughter up in bed, to think of poor Lesley Gordon. Just ask yourself what sort of individual would do that to a 10 year old girl and query the mentality and ethics of a party that would celebrate the child killer. Just do it for one week, every night as you put her to bed

    If after that you are still a great SF supporter and apologist good luck to you. That is your right.

  • BluesJazz

    MOPE Alert!

    Bad Brits, It was Frank Kitson wot done it, etc

    neil, you forgot to reference the Famine.

  • Neil

    Nope Blues Jazz just talking about Finucane and British War Crimes. The topic of the thread as it happens. Should you not be laughing at pictures of bereaved windows or something?

  • Neil

    *widows that is

  • Neil

    Just in case I get carded again, that is in reference to this heart warmingly decent post from Blues Jazz:

    Very amusing to see the faces of the Finucane clan as they exited Downing Street yesterday.

    I have to say I don’t get your sense of humour at all.

  • between the bridges

    neil…’I have nothing to lose by the truth coming out – everyone knows our truth’….indeed republicans have bee so truthful we know gerry adams wasn’t in what never went away and martyr went fishing in 74

  • BluesJazz

    Neil
    You quoted me without the full context.

    On operations in Afghanistan, Prince Harry wore an Army t-shirt ‘We do bad things to bad people’.
    That’s the deal.

    A large number of the populace are indifferent to the details.

    We want, in fact need, people like Brigadier Frank Kitson to deal with the details.

  • badger 3336

    Geraldine Finucane lucky enough, again, to get the ear of the media unlike the relatives of Letitia McCrory, a Catholic Civilian from Lucan in Co Dublin, the mother of five daughters, who was killed in an explosion on the Dublin to Belfast train on 12 October 1978. In all, four IRA bombs went off on the 8 am train as it approached Central Station. So many families suffering, so many needing to know the names of the killers, so many wanting to know who gave the orders, but not having access to the SF propaganda machine they will never get the publicity they need to get closure.

  • @badger3336

    Badger I don’t know if you are doing this deliberately for propaganda purposes or simply getting your information from some dodgy loyalist website but for the second time on this thread you have posted factually incorrect information. Four bombs did not go off on that train or any other train that day. One incendiary bomb went off as it was being transported by an IRA man who was killed along with Letitia McCrory.

  • badger 3336

    @ulick Like so many of our local politicians I’m just being ‘economical with the truth’. But I state again: So many families suffering, so many needing to know the names of the killers, so many wanting to know who gave the orders, but not having access to the SF propaganda machine they will never get the publicity they need to get closure.

  • vanhelsing

    @ Neil
    “Taking the above statement in the context of I’m not sure that lawyers are higher up the moral food chain than census takers, school teachers or policemen; or for that matter deserve truth and justice any more. I assume then that you support the families, Finucane included, to find the truth and to have justice?”

    The Finucanes may, or may not, get their independent inquiry but at least the person who murdered their father/husband was brought to justice in 2004. I’m simply saying that many families from both communities never got justice but could get it now if the Shinners were to open up their books. Of course they won’t because as much as they crow about transparency and openness we all know they’ll never give up on their comrades in arms. The people who murdered Joanne Mathers, Mary Travers and the Kingsmill heroes would be a reasonable start..

    There is also an overbearing sense of irony in all this. Most hacks are aware that the Finucanes have the backing [and possibly financing] of, as badger so eloquently put it,

    “the SF propaganda machine”

    who are of course are the people holding the information which could enable lots of families who never received justice to get it now.

    Of course Gerry was never in the IRA and Marty was only a gofer so I guess we’ll have to search elsewhere for the info…:)

  • Comrade Stalin

    Because the State having a role in murdering defence lawyers is extremely serious. It means that the government acted knowingly to threaten the right of people to a fair trial. Which is part of pretty much any definition of human rights that you might care to mention.

    It’s depressing that this simple concept has to explained to people

    And you appear to be struggling with my point, so permit me to try again.
    A murder of a lawyer is no worse, no better than the murder of a teacher or journalist.
    The most basic human right of all is the right to life and that is the case whether that right is removed by either the state or a terrorist organisation.

    The relatives of either set of victims thus deserve no more or no less investigation into the cause of their loved ones’ murder.
    Correct me if I am wrong but you appear to be arguing against the basic human right which lies behind that “simple” concept

    Hedley Lemar,

    Under UN mechanisms the independence of lawyers is a litmus test of compliance with human rights standards.

    Intervention into the independence of lawyers particularly through murder shows a lack of tolerance

    You still haven’t quoted the specific UN “mechanisms” which designatse that the murder of a lawyer is of higher importance and thus worthy of a higher level of investigation than that of a teacher or census taker.

    Simple question: do you believe that the families of *all* victims are entitled to the same level of investigation (from either the State or representatives of the various terrorist organisations) that the Finucances are demanding?

  • Jimmy Sands

    Geraldine Finucane lucky

    There’s that word again. I assume it means something different up there.

  • badger 3336

    what’s the difficulty with the word ‘lucky’ – blessed, fortunate …. to have the SF propaganda machine.

  • Jimmy Sands

    She was shot and her husband murdered in front of her. Define “unlucky”.

  • badger 3336

    If you read my initial post and subsequent post carefully then it is obvious that the word luck refers to fact that she was in a position to avail of the SF propaganda machine which is able to get the ear of the media.

  • Jimmy Sands

    I think Kylie Minogue put it best….

  • Hedley Lamarr

    oneill- the extra-conventional mechanisms which have been set up in order to monitor compliance with various international human rights instruments and to investigate alleged human rights abuses are specifically United Nations special rapporteurs but also other representatives, experts and working groups. Special rapporteurs deal with particular human rights abuses including lawyers being killed because of their job. It is part of the special rapporteurs remit. The targeting of lawyers violates their right to be impartial, right to liberty for their potential clients and other aspects of emergency law regarding a fair trial just as the killing of journalists violates the right to freedom of speech.

    Of course I would treat every victim the same with regards to level of investigation. The problem with killings involving the state at any level means that state institutions can’t be trusted to investigate or sentence impartially.

  • Of course I would treat every victim the same with regards to level of investigation.

    OK, thanks.

    The problem with killings involving the state at any level means that state institutions can’t be trusted to investigate or sentence impartially

    Fine, I haven’t argued otherwise. I was arguing that the Finucane are no more and no less entitled to such an investigation than, for example, the victims of the Kingsmill Massacre. The United Nations, within its own human rights structures, does not anywhere adhere to a the concept of a hierarchy of victims.

    This principle of universal disclosure seems to be more of a problem for the Sinn Fein leadership than its electorate who seem to be fully aware of and reconciled to the crimes committed on behalf of the movement they vote for.

  • kaiser

    Hands up – setting the murder as a one off event and looking at the evidence , If this was the only murder committed during the troubles How many think Pat F was setup by the state that was supposed to protect us all

  • Mark

    Hands and feet in the air Kasier …..

  • HeinzGuderian

    mark

    you won’t be missed 😉

  • 241934 john brennan

    Suppose Sinn Fein’s Mary McArdle is given the following options relating to the murder of Mary Travers:

    Name her accomplices, or give up her paid position at Stormont.

    Given that silence is not an option, which choice do you think she would take?

  • Nunoftheabove

    241934 john brennan

    I know which choicer she’d take; which one do you think she’d take ?

  • 241934 john brennan

    The whole truth will never be told, even, if there is a total amnesty and complete forgiveness. In electoral terms the truth, as opposed to the myth (or lie), would be disastrous. A pity, because in the long run, the whole truth would be wholesome, for the whole of society.

  • Mary Anna

    The only thing good came out of the troubles was jobs for the boys! War is big business -it was all about greed power and control over the weak! Those who support murderers think hard. The troubles were all wrong – we were all about civil rights not for taking a life – I knew many people who were murdered and killed for nothing. I would never use the lack of civil rights or the death of a person as an excuse for violence as Martin McGuiness constantly does – John Hume didn’t have to kill anyone.

  • Mary Anna

    And what needs to happen for everyone to heal, is convictions justice for everyone then peace will follow – those no matter who they are STATE, IRA, UDA, UVF. I don’t care who you are -you all should be taken to task for war crimes and not rewarded with professional jobs what a joke to the world. We can learn how to live with our difference. What is the difference – murder and child crimes.

  • Mary Anna

    People can sleep in their nice beds and talk a good fight, but only when it hits your home it is a different story. why will people not support decent people – David Kellys family, Anne Travers, the Kingsmills families the claudy families bloody sunday families, bloody friday families dropin well families, the Deery family and young Seamus Browne murdered just
    because of hear say – I could go on about this for the next life time. But at the end of the day who really cares???

  • Nunoftheabove

    241934 john brennan

    Wholesome ?!

  • wee buns

    Holistic?

  • wee buns

    Mary Anne
    I think people do care, but the question of how to proceed is one that we are largely not consulted about, as in every ‘democracy’ the people are never asked to decide the pertinent questions directly. The problem of how to take our concerns to the government is ours alone. To those in power, victims are an inconvenience, as are most of our concerns!

  • Nunoftheabove

    wee buns

    There’s a reason for that. In this particular variant of democracy, people freely elect other people to make a range of decisions on their behalf. Try forming a single issue victimhood party if you feel that strongly about the issue. I think you’ll find out beyond much doubt just how genuinely important the issue is to the bulk of the people who vote in the event that you do so.

  • Mary Anna

    Wee buns thank you very much for returning your thoughts! I get very upset at the past, when people lie and use the dead to make them out to be decent true leaders for a reckless cause. It was their dirty war and a fuitle war. I was 13 when the troubles started and did things like marching joined the riots build the barricades. I always supported John and Pat Hume, Eamon Mc Cann and people like that they are non-violent people, they are real people who never agree with the killings , civil rights was never about taking a life! But when the IRA murder people I walked away.In my eyes ps/f are blood hounds. I saw so much and witiness the pain and suffering- these people who run NI are Fascists Ps/f -DUP something has to give. People must waken up and keep the likes of McGuinness & Adams out, he and Adams are not holistic -they will go down in history as ruthlessness and self serving not heroes. Damage beyond repair. Do not let them tarnish the rest of Ireland as they have done in the North.

  • wee buns

    Nun
    In this particular variant of democracy, people freely elect other people to make a range of decisions on their behalf.

    True – but worth noting that this particular variant of democracy is the result of a politically engineered consociational agreement – the main goals of which is the avoidance of violence. Where the focus is on diverging identities, they are institutionalized now and more entrenched than ever; rights are given to communities rather than individuals: hence the ‘range of decisions’ a party makes, esp. main parties, is unlikely to include policy that integrates victims across the community. None of which is reason to conclude that people don’t care.

  • wee buns

    Mary Anna

    Do not let them tarnish the rest of Ireland as they have done in the North.
    I’m afraid it would be a case of filing a vacuum if they do. The incredible thing is that the south had not gotten around to having the debate about the north, until now, with McG’s run for the Aras. Be it due to an out-of-sight-out-of-mind mentality in the south and that the GFA is so focused on itself, we are only getting around to it. The pressure is on SF to do something leading up to the centenary of 1916. Plenty of people both north and south share the view that there was no need for the killing esp. of civilians to achieve civil rights and it remains to be seen how effective the myth making machine really is, esp. among the young,(most of who have left the country so this time their votes won’t count!) Otherwise I don’t think the set up in the north is engineered towards the righting of wrongs. Hopefully it is in transition.

  • tuatha

    MaryA & WBuns – unfortunately, young males will always need their validation, whether infibulation or the more recent ‘whiff of cordite’. If the women don’t stand up, like Lysistrata – albeit Aristophanes’ phantasy – the madness will continue.
    Bottom feeders like GA & McG can only exist because a mob is less than the sum of its parts and the bit missing is the brain – they can only function because others do their bidding, rather than be responsible for their own actions.
    Men need women more than women need men – like a fish needs a bicycle.

  • Nunoftheabove

    wee buns

    I’m not sensing much of a groundswell in either/both communities as articulated through their, so to say, ‘respective’ political representatives, are you ? Besides, the administering sectarian cartel could without strain agree a diluted form of approach on victims however we both know this is unlikely to be worth the bother even if it is agreed and without international involvement won’t have any credibility or for that matter purpose either. There’s the affordaibility hurdle too.

    Above all though, the reason it won’t happen is that the agreement/s and in place now do not anywhere define what it is an agreement in response to or define the ill for which it is supposed to represent a cure. To the extent that it does not – or, as I believe could not have done so – there is no basis for a cross-community political subscription to any form of remedy to the issue of victimhood. Above all, the agreement was about agreeing to disagree on why the agreement was/is necessary….but without saying so. The issue of victims is but one of the contradictions which this vulgar if polite fiction gves rise to and will continue to give rise to.