Greenacre ‘slavery’ camp: They knew nothing and were just passing through…

Quite shocking news from Bedfordshire, that a large group of UK, Polish and other overseas citizens have been held captive on a travellers site. Two thoughts worth sharing from this mornings coverage.

One, on Morning Ireland, a local radio news broadcaster noted that no one on the site that had spoken to would admit to knowing anything about it, that they were all just passing through (which of course is likely to have been the case).

Secondly, on the Today programme in BBC Radio Four, Dr Aidan McQuade noted that often the problem with slavery is that people who do know about become so accustomed to it that they don’t see it for what it actually is.

He also made an interesting point that the UK government is lagging behind the Police in their framing and understanding of the problem, often miscasting it as ancillary to the issue of immigration.

  • Independent Ulster

    There is an eviction battle looming with ‘travellers’ in Essex and this is very good timing for those supporting the evictions.

    Are both sets of travellers from Eire? There has historically been a far more tolerant attiude to Irish travellers in Britian than there has been in their homeland.

  • Harry Flashman

    You know the English really are an extraordinarily tolerant bunch, perhaps too tolerant for their own good. Most people in England will read this story, harumph in disgust and then pass on to the sports pages.

    Can one imagine the outrage in Ireland if a concentration camp, and no that’s not too strong a word for it, was found to be full of Irish slave labourers controlled by a gang of foreign criminals, some for as long as fifteen years?

    Joe Duffy’s phone lines would go into meltdown. Mobs would be converging on the sites of these criminal gangs to burn them to the ground.

    But it’s England, just another story in the happy success story that mass immigration and multiculturalism has brought about in a once civilised land.

    Nothing to see here folks, move along.

  • pippakin

    I think it may be part of the pc world we live in. No one wants to intrude on another way of life and some complaints may have been dismissed as anti this or that rants. Some of the ‘slaves’ had been there years and there had apparently been complaints going back years as well.

    It also looks like a kind of tribalism, anyone (English, Polish, whoever) who was not from that tribe, and was maybe down on his luck would have been fair game.

    Slavery of one kind or another is almost certainly happening in the UK. This is just one example, there have been others.

  • Rory Carr

    “But it’s England, just another story in the happy success story that mass immigration and multiculturalism has brought about in a once civilised land.”

    But nothing to say of the part that multi-national corporate capitalism might have played in all this “mass immigration and multiculturalism”, Harry, not to mention the demand for cheap, complacent labour in the agricorp business and the blind eye turned to the practices of the gang-masters who provide the labour..

  • Surely the real scandal here is:

    Det Ch Insp Sean O’Neil said: “The men we found at the site were in a poor state of physical health and the conditions they were living in were shockingly filthy and cramped … some people did leave and told us what was going on and when we looked back since 2008 we were aware of 28 people who had made similar accusations.”

    It wasn’t the general public who turned a blind eye.

    Beyond that, all is speculation. But … cause and effect. I’m watching to see if those carrots I buy in the supermarket get involved. In any case, there is need for a serious debate about UK agri-business and the supermarkets’ overweening power.

  • OK. I forgot the end-quote before last two paras. ‘Pologies.

  • Alias

    I lived in Leighton Buzzard for a few years and there is no PC attitude where Irish gypsies are concerned, certainly not among the business community there. They’re rightly regarded as vermin on the industrial estates, who would steal anything from pallets to CCTV cameras.

    It’s a great little town, and this will shock the lot of them.

  • Greenflag

    Alias ,

    There are no Irish gypsies .The Roma are gypsies . Irish and English ‘nomads’ are referred to as travellers . The so called ‘slaves ‘ may under close examination and questioning turn out to be the ‘new homeless ‘ dumped on the streets as a result of the looting and pillaging of the UK economy by rapacious banksters .

    BTW referring to people as vermin is but one step removed from referring to them as untermenschen and consigning them to the gas chambers . You might want to use the same terminology on the financial services sector and bankster buddies of the Cameroonians . Or perhaps use it on the early released corrupt Westminster Lords and politicians who have been convicted of fraudulently thieving from the British taxpayer to support their ‘lifestyles’

    Oh yes thats another news story which hopefully might make the inside pages as the tabloids hone in on the latest sensational . Slavery in England -imagine that . Bet they would’nt have had that headline a couple of centuries ago approx .

    ‘British slavers doing great job of whipping natives into church for the good of their souls and our bank accounts ‘

    would probably not have made the front page of the Thunderer.

    There may be more to this case than merits the typical tabloid reaction . As Malcolm points out above there were some 28 people who had made complaints and then there is the timing of this ‘raid’ with the Essex eviction .And then the ‘early release’ for those poor sick Lords who found life in prison too uncomfortable for their delicate constitutions .

    indeed

  • Harry Flashman

    “But nothing to say of the part that multi-national corporate capitalism might have played in all this “mass immigration and multiculturalism”,”

    As I recall the first waves of mass immigration to the UK came at the behest of your much beloved nationalised industries and the NHS Rory.

    In fact I’m not at all sure that multi-national corporations have had any role to play in immigration to the UK as protecting the national borders is after all one the most basic responsibilities of a sovereign government, or at least it used to be.

    No, I’m really struggling to see how you can blame a bunch of Irish thugs exploiting poor vulnerable people at the door of mult-national corporates.

    No doubt it’s all Maggie’s fault, it always is in your world isn’t it Rory?

  • Harry Flashman @ 1:38 pm:

    As I recall the first waves of mass immigration to the UK came at the behest of your much beloved nationalised industries and the NHS Rory.

    Depends when one starts counting, and how one defines the UK. There were the “navvies” who dug the canals, even before the 1801 Act of Union.

    Swift, Boyle, Congreve, Farquhar, Goldsmith, Sheridan, Prunty/Brontë, Burke, Arthur Wellesley, Thomas Moore and many others testify to a significant incursion. Not all were employed in state capitalism.

    Then the Victorian railway boom was built on the backs of those Irish who arrived as a result of the Famine. No “nationalised industries” involved there.

    However, let me not subvert well-worn prejudices.

  • Greenflag

    update.

    ‘Police believe some of the men appeared to have been ‘recruited’ from soup kitchens and benefits offices and may have had problems such as alcoholism.’

    Soup kitchens ? Is this another facet of the Big Society bollocksology or are they still dishing out soup in return for hymn singing and prayerful repentance by the British and immigrant poor for causing their own poverty . Perhaps the poor sods got so sick of the soup and singing that they opted for ‘real slavery’ instead that being an eh improvement .

    George Orwell’ s’ Down and Out in Paris and London ‘ in the early 21 st century . Plus ca change .

  • It’s a real tale from the margins of society. Travellers traditionally operating outside the boundaries of settled society. Years of exclusion – self-imposed and otherwise – probably breeds an attitude of the law of the land not really applying to them and using their own code instead. (which appears to contain some mediaeval clauses)
    The victims were also marginalised, no one obviously missed them when they were gone.
    Wonder is this a one-off or is there a wider pattern of this kind of thing.

  • The Grauniad is saying at least one of the “slaves” is disputing the story…

  • colmoregan @ 3:13 pm:

    A real and live and far too general a disgrace, perhaps.

    The answer to your very valid point may lie in this, from Mark Hennessy’s Irish Times report:

    Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Constabulary indicated charges against the five under the Slavery and Servitude Act will follow over the next two days, while they continue to search for three others suspected of involvement.

    I believe that to be the Slavery and Sexual Servitude Act (note the missing word), which was revised as recently as 1999. Of necessity. Then was further revised by section 71 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009:

    A person (D) commits an offence if:

    (a) D holds another person in slavery or servitude and the circumstances are such that D knows or ought to know that the person is so held, or

    (b) D requires another person to perform forced or compulsory labour and the circumstances are such that D knows or ought to know that the person is being required to perform such labour.

    Since the definition of forced or compulsory labour is that of Article 4 of the Human Rights Convention, the Daily Mail may construe the arrests at Green Acres caravan park as a gross intrusion of alien practices into British life.

    Else I’m being sardonic.

  • Alias

    Actually, the surprise is not that the council dismissed 3100 of the 3500 objections as ‘racist’ but how the other 400 managed to avoid being so dismissed under the Act.

    The very act of objecting to gypsies/travellers is classified as racist under the Act.

    “A person discriminates against another in any circumstances relevant for the purposes of any provision of this Act if …on racial grounds he treats that other less favourably than he treats or would treat other persons.”

  • Greenflag

    ‘So basically the same as the banksters and Cameron’s buddies in the City ‘

    Or as Max Keiser would put it re the ‘elephant in the room ‘ or the serial financial terrorist offenders law which western governments have yet to enact if they want to save their democracies from the mobs that are to come in the aftermath of the Greek default and possibly others .

    http://maxkeiser.com/2011/09/07/keiser-report-teaser-bankers-raping-pillaging/

    Compared to which the ‘Travellers tales ‘ are a pinprick on the surface of the moon 🙁

  • Greenflag

    Alias ,,

    ‘how the other 400 managed to avoid being so dismissed under the Act.’

    Perhaps they were able to afford the eh ‘legal advice ‘ A lot of people especially Brits and Irish unlike Americans still instinctively recoil from paying lawyers particularly in what seems an open and shut case of common sense .

  • Greenflag

    I read now that 5 people have been charged with offences relating to modern day slavery here’s the RTE link for anyone still interested in this ‘unique’ case .

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0913/slavery.html

    It appears that 9 of the alleged slaves have chosen not to support the police investigation .

    The name Connors is widely associated with being a ‘travellers’ name as is Ward at least in Ireland . I know this as a fact as I once made the error of referring in a political debate to a candidate as Mr Connor’s . I was rudely informed later by the same gentleman that his name was O’Connor and not Connors . To my ears they are the same name with the latter being more anglicised than the former . It was then I was told by a local that there was a travellers encampment of Connors outside that town and Mr O’Connor resented being associated with those *********s.

    I digress . But what I find fascination is what actual work where these slaves actually doing in Leighton Buzzard -I mean the type of work . It’s hard to imagine them mowing lawns or being house /trailer/mobile home servants ? Does anyone have any idea ? They surely were not ‘sex slaves’ as there was no mention of ‘female’slaves ?

    And then the thought struck me that things must be a lot worse in the England than one can possibly imagine and that the anarchic financial sector led capitalist system must be near the abyss, if a bunch of traveller ‘thugs ‘ are forced to employ slave labour in order to remain competitive in the eh ‘Big Society ‘

    I’ve read about the race to the bottom which is a concern in all western developed societies unless one is a bankster or hedgefund manager but this Leighton Buzzard surely takes the biscuit or it did until this morning when i read that in return and thanksgiving for the billions it received in taxpayer ‘bail out ‘- Bank of America has expressed it’s gratitude by giving notice of cutting 30,000 employees from it’s payroll and dumping them on the already 25 million USA unemployed lines .

    Oh before I forget -guess who gets to pick up the tab for these 30,000 new entrants to the unemployed labour force – yes those taxpayers again .:(

    I read that the British government is hoping that by 2019 they’ll have reformed the eh’ banking system ? Well that should give the present generation of politicians to loot as much as they can before they retire . They’re obviously in a rush unlike the manner in which they rounded up the small fry looters during the London riots a couple of weeks back .

    One wonders what motivates them -the politicians I mean . Surely it’s not the same as what motivates the looters and criminals of the riotous plebs and their better dressed cousins in the financial and bankster sectors ?

  • Neil

    I know a few ‘travellers’ myself. Find them to be much like any other people in society. Some of them are alright, some of them aren’t.

  • Neil

    Good posts btw, GF & Malcolm.

  • Rory Carr

    While Greenflag ponders precisely what type of occupation the alleged slaves were engaged in I immediately assumed that they were probably involved in agribusiness which is woefully unregulated even after the horrendous tragedy when 14 unsupervised Chinese labourers engaged in picking cockles at a rate of £5 per 25kg were left to drown on Morecambe Sands in 2004.

    “From 2005 to 2006, four men and one woman were tried at Preston Crown Court, accused of manslaughter or helping the cocklers break immigration law. On 24 March 2006, Lin Liangren was convicted of 21 counts of manslaughter. Lin was described in court as being “callous” and motivated by money. Lin claimed that ultimate responsibility lay with the clients, with frequent price cutting by middlemen to blame for the harsh regime. On 28 March 2006, he was sentenced to 14 years imprisonment, with a recommendation that he be deported to China at the end of his sentence.” (My emphasis).

    The disaster led to the Gangmaster Licensing Act 2004 and the formation of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority which allows the government and the industry to carry on under the pretense that workers in the industry are now safe from the grosser forms of exploitation. In a pig’s eye…

  • Rory Carr

    P.s. Isn’t this remark a bit sexist, Greenflag?

    “They surely were not ‘sex slaves’ as there was no mention of ‘female’slaves ?”

    Well here’s proof of just how wrong you are:

    http://bit.ly/efZUxF

  • Greenflag

    LOL or should that be Ho Ho ?

    I may have got that wrong but a little search came up with the family tree of that likely band of twins namely one Barnshee and/or Limerick. I suppose it could be called a ‘creative ‘ if not creationist concoction.

  • nemesis2

    “As I recall the first waves of mass immigration to the UK came at the behest of your much beloved nationalised industries and the NHS Rory.”

    So who built the London Underground? Dug the Welsh Coalmines?

    Anyone hear of the famine which was (at least) the second wave of mass Irish emmigration?

  • Alias

    Greenie, it’s a bit more organised and extensive than that. These Irish travellers, protected by UK human rights legitslation, were able to abuse the human rights of what is now suspected by SOCA to be in excess of 100 vulnerable people thoughout the UK.

    The local councils will tell you that there is no evidence that Irish travellers are more prone to crime than other UK citizens but what they don’t tell is that the reason there is no such evidence is because the police are prevented by EU legitslation from collating crime statistics by ethnic, racial or national group. Since Irish travellers are classified as a race under UK legitslation, it is illegal for the police to seperate them from other UK citizens when reporting crime and so the councils are able to make that misleading claim about Irish travellers.

    Ireland now prosecutes travellers who settle on private land under criminal law whereas the UK still prosecutes them under civil law. Their vans and caravans are instantly seized in Ireland whereas it is an expensive and time consuming legal process to evist them in the UK. A racket they used in Ireland was to move onto sites where planning permission had been granted and then demand money from the developer to move on. Unfortuantely for travellers, developers and FF got on rather well so that crinimal racket backfired on them. That has allowed Ireland to export its crinimal class to the UK, where they employ the same racket.

  • Alias @ 2:50 am:

    … the police are prevented by EU legitslation from collating crime statistics by ethnic, racial or national group.

    Pity nobody told the EU, the police, the Home Office or the Scottish government about that prohibition.

    For example:

    The Crime Recording process compiles ethnicity, gender and age data but not disability. sexual orientation or faith unless these are identified at the time of reporting as a factor of an offence. [Merseyside Police Crime Recording Policy — Impact Assessment, paragraph 1; similar statements come from other police authorities across the UK & NI.]

    and

    Everyone who is stopped or stopped and searched will be asked to define his or her ethnic background. You can choose from a list of national census categories that the officer will show you.[Met. Police FAQ: those “national census categories” do include “Irish”, and in NI “Irish traveller” — google the term for yourself.]

    and

    ECRI is of the opinion that the collection of ethnic data is a beneficial instrument for shaping sound policies against racism and racial discrimination and for promoting equal opportunities. [European Commission against Racism and Intolerance report on “Ethnic” statistics and data protection in the Council of Europe countries, 2007]

    How else do you think ethnic-based crime can be reported, not least by the Daily Mail? See, for example, Rebecca Camber on 27 June 2010 and Littlejohn passim.

    Any chance you can stop making it up as you go along?

  • Alias

    You are confusing statistics produced by the police to monitor crime committed against ethnic, racial or national groups within the UK and to monitor police performance in relation to them witht crime statistics produced for crimes committed by ethnic, racial or national groups within the UK.

    Perhaps you should read what you paste?

    The Metropolitan Police Service is the only exception in that it produced a report a few years ago showing that 20% of all crimes in London were committed by foreign nations, giving a breakdown of nationality.

    No police force in the UK has released figures for crimes committed by racial or ethnic groups such as Irish travellers.

    In Ireland, where compliance with EU regulation is more servile, arrested EU nationals are not even required to fill the nationality field.

    So statistics about nationalities relating to crime would be questionable. The Central Statistic Office, an independent body who compile the statistics for the Garda, agrees.

    “The recording practice is not accurate because people do not always fill in the nationality field,” a spokesperson for the CSO said. The Court Service said they record people according to addresses, so nationalities would not be collated when it came to people coming before the courts.

    This is the opposite scenario to London, where police figures recently gave an exact figure of 22,793, or 20 per cent, crimes being committed by foreign nationals in the first half of 2007. It even went further by giving the top twenty nationalities accused of crimes as well as the type of offences that were committed.

    Why don’t you put your google fingers to good use and produce the crime figures for crimes committed by Irish travellers in the UK to prove your claim that the police do produce them?

  • Alias @ 8:49 am:

    A fertile imagination but a totally barren and baseless attempt at an argument.

    That first paragraph is unmitigated tosh. Of course police across the nation record and report ethnic origins of suspects, and in the most (for the time being) “scientific” way, and in far, far greater depth and detail than any other known recording across the globe.

    Arrestees for “recordable offences” (which include such heinous crimes as begging, D&D, and demonstrating) are DNA sampled. This allows statistics to be collected and reported — as you then contradict yourself by noting. This is not some product of the race-relations industry, as you seem to imply: the official 2009 report, Nothing to hide, nothing to fear?, showed that ¾ of young black men were on record.

    You may recall this was all briefly a shock! horror! General Election campaign issue for the Tories and LibDems, particularly inspired by that report I note in the previous paragraph, by SOCA, and as a spin-off from the case of S and Marper v. UK. Since when, the May 2009 guidelines, formulated in Jacqui Smith’s term of office, have been quietly allowed to persist — quelle surprise!

    No police force in the UK has released figures for crimes committed by racial or ethnic groups such as Irish travellers.

    Which isn’t surprising. “Irish traveller” is a census category only in NI, not in the rest of the UK — as I noted in my previous post. However, there is an independent count done by the Irish Chaplaincy in Britain. Look it up.

    Quite what impact any recording deficiencies by the Garda have on UK statistics escapes me.

  • Alias

    Malcolm, I repeat the question that you are unable to answer and conclude that you can’t answer it because, contrary to your false claim, the UK police forces do not produce the statistics:

    “Why don’t you put your google fingers to good use and produce the crime figures for crimes committed by Irish travellers in the UK to prove your claim that the police do produce them?”

    All you have to do, Malcolm, is produce the crime statistics that you claim exist.

    Perhaps the reason you can’t produce them is because the statement you wrongly claimed is false is actually true?

    “The local councils will tell you that there is no evidence that Irish travellers are more prone to crime than other UK citizens but what they don’t tell is that the reason there is no such evidence is because the police are prevented by EU legitslation from collating crime statistics by ethnic, racial or national group. Since Irish travellers are classified as a race under UK legitslation, it is illegal for the police to seperate them from other UK citizens when reporting crime and so the councils are able to make that misleading claim about Irish travellers.”

    I’ll pop back in a few hours and see if you have managed to produce the crime statistics or just posted more Guardian-inspired waffle.

  • Harry Flashman

    “So who built the London Underground?”

    UK people, including many people from the part of the Kingdom called Ireland.

    “Dug the Welsh Coalmines?”

    A really wild guess here but I’ll go for Welsh coalminers.

  • Harry Flashman

    Greenflag have you ever considered that you might suffer from a mild form of Tourette’s Syndrome where you feel the need to shriek “banksters!” at all times and in the most inappropriate circumstances?

    I appreciate that “banksters” has replaced your previous obsession which as I recall was “Rapture” which you used to feel the need to mention in every single post.

    However corrupt banking practices, appalling and all though they doubtless are, have absolutely diddly-squat to do with this story. The last time I checked no one in Lehman Brothers, Anglo-Irish Bank or the RBS had any had act or part in enslaving vulnerable individuals to work for Irish itinerant criminals.

    There is simply no connection whatsoever, none, zilch, nada, between the financial meltdown and this alleged crime and yet you still felt the need to mention the word “banksters” almost half a dozen times.

    Extraordinary.

  • Sorry, Alias @ 10:33 am: I have things to do, a life to live. I am not here at your beck and call, responding to your fantasies. Even so, before “over and out”, a couple of thoughts:

    Of course, as I have now said explicitly twice previously, there are no specific police figures for crimes by “Irish travellers”. “Irish traveller” exists as a historical category largely in the columns of the Daily Mail, and — of course, among its readership among the BNP and ENL.

    If one wishes to maintain that “Irish traveller” is a specific genetic or sub-ethnic group, the sole evidence I know is the discovery of the common mutant allene Q188R in DNA samples: however, the same research found Q188R in 89% of the whole Irish “native” population.

    Consider: one steps off FR206 or EZY258 at Stansted this bright morning. One is questioned by the Essex Constabulary in the terminal. Should one be recorded as “Irish” or “Irish traveller”?

    In which case a category of “Irish traveller” is as irrelevant as noting membership of the Church of the Latter-Day Dude.

    Moreover quoting oneself (as you do @ 10:33 am) is not really convincing. Give us some evidence, or give up.

    You maintain that:

    the police are prevented by EU legitslation [sic] from collating crime statistics by ethnic, racial or national group — Absolutely untrue: see my citing from ECRI on that @ 4:39 am.

    Irish travellers are classified as a race under UK legitslation [sic] — true mainly in so far as Roma and Irish Travellers were a joint self-descriptor, for the first time, in the 2011 Census. What is also true is the pejorative, “pikey”, has been deemed racist, and cannot be an descriptor — except, apparently, in the documentation of Constant & Co, the bailiffs receiving £2m to clear Dale Farm.

    No copy of the Guardian was harmed in the making of this post.

  • Greenflag

    Harry

    ‘you still felt the need to mention the word “banksters” almost half a dozen times.’

    Actually twice – They haven’t gone away you know -to quote a phrase oft used here on slugger in relation to non financial former terrorists/freedom fighters .Neither have the banks reformed their ways and express no willingness to do so . Like the dog that won’t stop barking on Sunday morning the only way to stop them is by putting lead in their collective ears on Saturday night with a gun -figuratively speaking – and no politician in the western world seems able , capable or willing to do whats necessary . Osborne’s baby steps are way too late as he says himself about 10 years too late.

    So I guess it’ll just have to take place in the wake of another world wide meltdown when the Greeks drag down French and German banks and American and British banks amidst political chaos and probable wars sparking in the Middle East and elsewhere. .

    The Greeks may be doing the world a favour when they finally pull the plug.

    BTW the above is of a lot more import than the ‘travellers tale’ .

    And has anyone yet found out what type of slave work these unfortunates were forced to do by the thug travellers ?

    It was’nt selling CDO investment tranches to unsuspecting investors was it ?

    And I’ve been listening to Mr Osborne who is getting around to commissioning ‘recommendations ‘ but by the time any action emerges it may be already too late . The traditional responses are not working nor will they .

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/house_of_commons/newsid_9588000/9588535.stm

  • Greenflag

    Alias ,

    Irish travellers are not a ‘race’ nor even a different ‘ethnicity ‘ from the Irish people as a whole . Their ‘differences ‘ to the rest of the population can be put down to their nomadic lifestyle, the maintenance of cultural practices which have long since died out in the majority population such as early and arranged marriages often with close kin leading to later medical complications -shortened life spans and high rates of infant mortality and still births among other traits .Amongst themselves they have their own code of conduct of which I know very little .I believe that most of their health problems could be due to ‘inbreeding ‘ which of course leads to a higher risk for those who carry certain ‘mutant ‘ genes which would otherwise be bred out in a larger population .

    They choose to live the way they do for reasons which the settled communities don’t understand or care to understand. Referring to them all as ‘criminals ‘ is justs as bad as referring to all protestants and catholics in Northern Ireland as terrorists .

    A couple of years back I answered a knock on the door one Saturday morning only to see a young girl /teenager with the looks of a Hollywood film star on the door step offering her services and her brothers to cut the grass and do any tidying up around the back etc.

    I do my own so I said no thank you but later saw them working away happily enough further down the road . Later I was told by the man who hired them that they did an excellent job and were no bother .

  • Barnshee

    “couple of years back I answered a knock on the door one Saturday morning only to see a young girl /teenager with the looks of a Hollywood film star on the door step offering her services and her brothers to cut the grass and do any tidying up around the back etc.”

    Yea I had that as well its called “casing the joint” and the no doubt wholly unconnected disappearance of a lawmower and assorted power tools might suggest

  • Greenflag

    @ Harry ,

    You’re obseesing too much about Greenflag 😉

    Are you sure you haven’t got a touch of TS yourself .?

    Maybe that’s whats wrong with Max Keiser when he finds 27 million slaves and the price of slaves has gone down . Second only to the arms market

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNoPqiUQDFM

    If you have a touch of TS you could be in good company 😉

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociological_and_cultural_aspects_of_Tourette_syndrome#Notable_individuals

  • Greenflag

    barnshee ,

    ”Yea I had that as well its called “casing the joint”

    I’m and was well aware of that possibility but that was’nt the case neither for me or the neighbour. Of course just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you but to be honest our banksters and powerless failing politicians scare me a lot more than ‘travellers’ or would be burglars or petty thieves or bigots .

  • Neil

    Sorry folks, but some of this horse shit is clearly influenced by a severe lack of first hand knowledge. I live near a camp and have a traveller family living in a house on my street. They are among the more decent neighbours we have.

    As GF points out, good and bad folk everywhere. All travellers are no more criminals than all [insert ethnic group] are [insert characteristic].

  • Harry Flashman

    “You’re obseesing[sic] too much about Greenflag”

    Actually Greenie you might not have noticed but this is the first time I’ve replied to you in months, so interminably predictable has become your single transferable post about “banksters” (amazingly reposted again at 1.49) endlessly repeated in every single post you comment upon.

    Give it a rest man, we’ve got it already. Banksters, bad guys, we know.

  • Harry Flashman

    @Neil

    “travellers are no more criminals than [other groups]”

    Statistically incorrect I’m afraid, no matter what you might pretend to believe. Despite your personal experience the actual facts say otherwise.

    Comment is free but facts are sacred.

  • Greenflag

    @ harry

    ‘ Despite your personal experience the actual facts say otherwise.’

    What facts ? Where are the numbers ? Haven’t seen any here -Plenty of tabloid sensationalism though .

    ‘Give it a rest man,’

    I will when they finally jail one half of the b******ds and hang the other half from the lamposts and when we see the elected governments actually represent the ‘people ‘ instead of a minority of financial gangsters and criminals .

    It may be a while just so you don’t raise your hopes !

  • Harry Flashman

    “What facts ? Where are the numbers ?”

    Traveller support groups have continually produced statistics which they hope will show how underprivileged and marginalised travellers are, these statistics invariably demonstrate high infant mortality rates, poor health, low educational attainment, high substance abuse rates and lower life expectancy.

    I dare say you’d probably accept those statistics and subjective observation and anecdotal evidence would confirm them.

    The statistics also reveal however a far higher level of domestic abuse and imprisonment among travellers than among the settled community. Once again subjective observation and anecdotal evidence would lead one to believe that this is so.

    Ipso facto, despite the best efforts of liberal society to cover up the blindingly obvious we do have statistical evidence that criminality is more rampant among the travelling community than in the settled community.

    Furthermore given the increased difficulties faced by police forces in trying to apprehend law breaking travellers as compared to settled offenders the actual level of criminality is probably even higher than is indicated by the prison population (I add this to counteract inevitable allegations that police and courts discriminate unfairly against travellers).

    Facts are awkward things for liberal lefties, as they like to say “who are you going to believe, us, or your own lying eyes?”

  • Neil

    Facts are awkward things for liberal lefties, as they like to say “who are you going to believe, us, or your own lying eyes?”

    Yet to see any ‘facts’ though, verifiable ones. One can assume they don’t exist as I’m sure at least one of our anti-traveller contingent has had a cursory examination of Google looking for the results.

    I’ll certainly take a look at any facts anyone can produce, but at this point, I can believe facts, my lying eyes, or a couple of guys on an internet forum who keep telling me that they are producing facts yet don’t (or can’t) include any evidence.

  • Greenflag

    ‘The statistics also reveal however a far higher level of domestic abuse and imprisonment among travellers than among the settled community.’

    And the same can be said of the ‘settled’ poor or lowest income groups in every developed country of African Americans and Hispanics in the USA and those of Caribbean heritage in the UK etc etc . In recent years there has been a huge increase in white collar bankster criminality -but alas the courts -if they ever get to court seem to find it beyond their powers to put any of them behind bars .

    The law has always favoured the rich for they have the means to avoid or evade prosecution and can afford the legal costs to mitigate . Those at the bottom of course are ‘written off ‘ as guilty by association .

    The recent London riots were blamed on ‘gangs ‘ by the Cameoonian tabloid press amongst others . There has been no call for any public enquiry or commission on the causes of said riots . Writing them off as gang led is enough for the powers that be .

    The fact that 80 % of the rioters arrested have not been associated with gangs by the police is a tiny fact that Mr Cameron will not acknowledge just as he’ll never acknowledge that the bollocksology that is the ‘big society’ is just right wing nutter ideology by a different name brand .

    BTW how do you manage to avoid being yellow carded for remarks like

    ‘your own lying eyes?”’

    Its beginning to look as if I’d get yellow carded for posting ‘
    Mary had a little lamb ‘

  • Rory Carr

    “Traveller support groups have continually produced statistics which…” Harry Flashman insists support whatever prejudices he holds about the Traveller community. Unfortunately so numerous and easily available are these reports that they have become a delicacy among the canine population.

    Isn’t that right, Harry, the dog ate yours?

  • Alias

    Malcolm, I’m not going to get into a non-terminating argument with you as I’m sure you’d much rather be squinting distasefully [sic] at whichever unflattering picture of Sarah Palin is published in today’s Guardian, but you are being mischievous in referring to statistics for crime committed against racial groups when the actual claim refers to statistics for crime committed against racial groups.

    The emphasis is on presenting travellers as the victims of crime, and not as the perpetrators of it, and that is why crime statistics are published for crimes committed against them but not for crimes committed by them.

  • Alias

    Typo: “…when the actual claim refers to statistics for crime committed by racial groups.”

  • Harry Flashman

    “Harry Flashman insists support whatever prejudices he holds about the Traveller community. Unfortunately so numerous and easily available are these reports that they have become a delicacy among the canine population.

    Isn’t that right, Harry, the dog ate yours?”

    Woof! Woof!

    http://www.dohc.ie/publications/aiths2010/TR2/AITHS2010_TechnicalReport2_HR_PartC.pdf?direct=1

    Travellers are five to eight times more likely to be in prison than settled people.

    This is the only statistic we can go on because as Alias rightly points out the police and traveller support groups adamantly refuse to publish statistics of crime committed by various ethnic groups.

    Rest assured if there were statistics proving that travellers were NOT more likely to commit crimes than settled people the equality quangos and the travellers’ activist lobby would be trumpeting them from the highest mountain. The fact they can’t produce such evidence is damning in the extreme. Speaking of dogs, as Mr Holmes would put it, there is a strange reluctance on the part of the nocturnal canine to express itself.

    Case closed.

  • Alias @ 9:56 pm and Harry Flashman @ 1:55 am:

    You still don’t get it, either of you. There are no statistics for crimes committed by “Irish travellers”, for three very simple reasons:

    ¶ The term “Irish traveller” was not used as a category in the UK before the 2011 Census. in anticipation the Census was decried by the Daily Mail as “the snooper’s census” and the “most intrusive ever”.

    Even then “Irish traveller” is conflated with Roma — which puts a completely different interpretation on any numbers produced. The police use ONS categories (see my previous comments) and don’t use a term without statistical correlation. Doubtless when the 2011 numbers are established, comparisons can be made. Even then, ethnic categories are self-ascribed — so subjective. For now, you are simply inventing.

    ¶ You cannot firmly identify a perp’s ethnicity until you’ve caught him/her. So rabbiting on about “crimes committed by” any particular group is nowhere near the same as “criminals convicted”.

    ¶ Quoting Irish statistics, as Harry does, is irrelevant to the UK issue. For the record (and I thought to mention this earlier), the most reliable and recent source of any numbers of “Irish travellers” in UK gaols is likely to be the Irish Catholic Chaplaincy in England and Wales. The Chaplaincy published, to considerable applause, a report Voices Unheard earlier this summer. I’ve hot-linked the .pdf site for you there: suck it and see.

  • Harry Flashman

    “I’ve hot-linked the .pdf site for you there: suck it and see.”

    The report you mentioned indicated that between a half and one percent of the British prison population were Irish travellers. Irish travellers make nowhere next nor near 0.5 – 1 % of the British general population.

    Thank you for confirming my point Malcolm.

    Suck, slurp.

  • Skinner

    Just to clarify something posted above, Irish Travellers have been recognised legally as a distinct ethinic group since 2000 and enjoy protection under the Race Relations Act in the UK.

    Issues with Travellers usually arise as a result of a culture clash. Travellers maintain their right to live outside of settled society and in many cases shun contact with settled people. Nobody has a problem with that concept itself, except of course that Travellers only live outside settled society when it suits them or when it is pretty much impossible not to. So they will use schools and hospitals, roads and other things that settled society has produced. They will also use laws that protect them. But then when settled society has laws that do not suit them, e.g planning laws, they pull out the culture card and claim that somehow it doesn’t apply. No wonder this attitude generates resentment.

  • Harry Flashman @ 10:56 am:

    Thank you for confirming my point Malcolm.

    Well, grateful for the acknowledgement, with or without the usually-obligatory comma. However …

    Errr, no.

    The figures from the Chaplaincy don’t “prove” your prejudices at all.

    Read the document.

    You will see what it may evidence (see the final paragraph here) is that any gaol-inmate who is thought or who declares himself/herself as “Irish traveller”, or who gives a “home” address on a camp site, isn’t going to get bail, early release or tagging. Hence any “Irish traveller” serves a discriminatory longer sentence than most others. That distorts the stats for bodies in quod.

    Skinner @ 11:44 am:

    All valid points.

    However, even now “Irish traveller” is not a 100% Persil ethnic descriptor. See my points above, and even refer to that Chaplaincy report which suggests numerous reasons why individuals, for good reasons, shy away from using it as a self-descriptor.

    [Next discriminatory topic up: why does Her Majesty’s Office for National Statistics not equally allowed me proudly to describe myself as “Anglo-Irish”? Anyone prepared to join me in legal action to get that category recognised in UK law? I’m surely not alone in this archaic allegiance. Whenever I have addressed this previously, it has done wonders for my blog’s stat-porn.]

    However, my dispute here is with a couple of other ne’er-do-wells here who insist that subjective prejudice = statistical proof.

    Answering all unvoiced question, the answer is “yes”. I did do a wombats-, anoraks- and nerds-only one-year post-grad course in statistics. I was the one who came out un-gibbering at the other end.

  • Cynic2

    “any “Irish traveller” serves a discriminatory longer sentence”

    ….which may be perfectly lawful if there is a risk they will abscond, interfere with witnesses, etc

  • Greenflag

    @ malcolm redfellow

    You may have posted that link re Churchill before as I recall it from somewhere ‘

    As to Anglo Irish as an archaic allegiance well perhaps but it survives as I found out a few years ago when a group I was with were attending a course at the NIHE . Among a somewhat varied group just over half were Irish (ROI) there were some Americans , a couple of English and a former Rhodesian believe it or not . As we lined up to be served a quick lunch in the college campus canteen a young woman present in the group had been given the wrong item and she asked across the counter to the serving lady for it to be replaced . The counter staff lady turned to another employee and said in a somewhat huffed manner (guess she was stressed) to “give that Englishwoman what she had ordered and nothing else . The tone may have been mildly disparaging but I was a little taken aback when this young woman spoke up for herself in a voice which was heard by all of us in line.

    ‘I’m NOT English- I’m Irish even if it’s Anglo Irish ‘ . Jaws dropped on both sides of the counter -feet shuffled -faces reddened . Later in classes even the English (Preston possibly North End ) lecturer kept a civil lip when herself made an entrance or spoke up for he too had been present at the scene and did not desire to get on the wrong side of herself.

    Wonderful spirited young woman . I often wonder what became of her and if she ever ‘quietened ‘ down . I like to think and quietly hope she did’nt -for the world needs people like that 😉

  • Harry Flashman

    Jeez, no pleasing some people, they ask you for statistics showing a higher percentage of Irish travellers in prison than settled people, you provide the evidence for not one but two separate jurisdictions and still they faff around.

    Malc, I’ll put it as simple terms as I can for you.

    Irish travellers are more prone to crime than settled people.

    Easy? Simple.