Kevin Lynch Memorial Parade, Dungiven, 31st July 2011…

Illegal bass drum image as used by a RFB

The bass drum of Spirit of Freedom Flute Band

Pictured are ‘The Spirit of Freedom’ Republican Flute Band, Derry, as on parade last Sunday (31st July 2011) in Dungiven. The parade was notifed as being orgainsed by the Kevin Lynch Memorial Flute Band. Along with this overtly paramilitary bass drum, other features of the event included the chanting of ‘I. R. A.’ prior to tunes by one band, and the blatantly deliberate routing of the parade past the towns only Presbyterian Church (several alternative and more logical routes were available). The notification to the Parades Commission stated that 19 bands would be in attendance and that the event would begin at 2pm. Both counts were ignored, with only 7 bands on show and after 2.30pm before the event got underway. For reference- The Parades Commission Code of Conduct can be found here.

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  • Chris Donnelly

    Quincy
    Several issues immediately apparent.

    1. That fewer bands appeared than was notified is hardly new- this regularly happens at loyalist parades.

    2. The timing issue is also hardly unique. Indeed, only in the case of the prominent contentious parades should this be expected to be enforced rigidly.

    3. The parade route allegation you make- I believe the words were ‘blatantly deliberate.’ Not knowing the geography of Dungiven, I can’t comment, other than to suggest that it is highly improbable that republicans would seek to route a parade deliberately past a protestant church as the trend for republican parades is clearly to seek non-contentious routes, as opposed to their Orange and Loyalist counterparts in too many areas of the Six Counties.

    4. The chanting issue is, to my mind, distasteful. But if we are to judge parades in similarly demographically profiled unionist communities on a similar level, then I’m afraid you’d be in trouble.

    And that really is the core issue here.

    Dungiven is demographically an overwhelmingly nationalist town, akin in that regard to Bangor, East Belfast Carrick, Sandy Row or- indeed- Ballyclare in terms of their loyalist profile.

    Now, were republicans to be seeking to march into or past loyalist communities, then you’d have grounds for complaint.

    But, unfortunately for you, republicans have consistently shown unionists how it should be possible to have a parading culture without heightening community tensions by not seeking to goad ‘the other’ in the manner that remains all too typical of loyalist parading culture.

  • west-east

    I think on this occasion we are looking at the picture of a guy with a base drum the centre of the band with a balaclava and automatic rifle on the side of it am sure he is surrounded by young people

    Then being told by chris that this is showing unionists how it should be done presumably this shows he is on his way out to shoot some one and this is all good

    well if this is republican culture you are in bother and looks more like a scene out of some south american country not the new Northern Ireland how many more bands are like this in the republican community and why do the police not stop this type of display

  • between the bridges

    QD, where there any PC restrictions on what type of music these CNR bands could play while passing the Presbyterian Church?
    or is it a case of par for the course with the PC of one rule for one and another rule for others

  • Dec

    To provide some context to Quincey’s thread, according to the Parades Commission website, on the 31st July the Orange Order, Royal Black Preceptory and the Apprentice Boys of Derry held 27 seperate parades between them.

  • grandimarkey

    “why do the police not stop this type of display”

    I’m not sure if it’s illegal. You’d have to be painting over a load of walls in Belfast and Derry if it was, surely?

    This thread has what-a-boutery written all over it. Perhaps the WAB should be introduced here, this could be a test thread (the what-a-boutery card).

    Anyway, I dislike the Irish parading ritual. It’s just a bunch of people walking down a road. Some of the time it’s down a road that people don’t even want them to be on. Mind boggling.

    Lots of people are ‘into’ parading, they get kicks from it and like to walk loads or watch people walk loads. Fair does. I could question the labeling of it as ‘culture’, but I won’t.

    As a young nationalist I really don’t have any time for nationalist parades. Parading has a stigma attached to it in the north, and it always seems, rightly or wrongly, to be parading to wind up, to frustrate and to get-one-up the other side. Marching with a balaclava-ed, gun wielding Ra man on the side of a drum is well, a bit tacky.
    I don’t like the idea of sinking to that level, the level we see every summer. I’d ban all nationalist parades and not allow those who would, to be pointing any accusatory or self-justifying fingers.

    If you travel to Newry and the surrounding areas there are Republican statues and plagues galore, they are a bit more aesthetically pleasing, a bit more demeure, and some are rather moving in their simplicity. That’s a memorial. If you’re into that kinda thing.

    I’m sure republican parades have been happening for years and years, and if you like watching people walk down a road then fair play to ya. It’s just not for me.

  • Chris Donnelly

    Grandi
    I would concur with your view on parading, though would not support a ban.

    west-east
    Whilst parading is a part of republican culture, it is a very small one. Hence the absence of a reciprocal green boiling point on the annual calendar to match Orangeism’s 12th July.

    I personally don’t like the military icons on drums, but let’s not kid ourselves into thinking this is restricted to republican bands.

    bridges
    I think you’ll find the Commission is most concerned with applying restrictions in interface communities. Given that republicans have a good tradition of steering clear of such areas to ensure the focus for their parades remain on the given theme and not heightening sectarian tensions, then the issue of restrictions is clearly less of an issue.

    However, I would like to think that republican- and loyalist parade- organisers would voluntarily ensure that the choice of music is not insensitive when passing any church, be it in a majority one-community or mixed area.

  • Joe Bloggs

    Chris Donnelly (profile)
    2 August 2011 at 10:31 am

    Dungiven is demographically an overwhelmingly nationalist town, akin in that regard to Bangor, East Belfast Carrick, Sandy Row or- indeed- Ballyclare in terms of their loyalist profile.

    – – – – – – – – –

    Chris, weren’t you one of the ones gurning about a Loyalist parade in East Belfast on 12th July???

  • Joe Bloggs

    Chris Donnelly (profile)
    2 August 2011 at 11:54 am

    I personally don’t like the military icons on drums, but let’s not kid ourselves into thinking this is restricted to republican bands.

    – – – – – – –

    Do you have any evidence of Loyalist bands having balaclava-wearing gunmen on their bass drum?

  • iluvni

    Which Kevin Lynch was being remembered in this parade: terrorist or GAA superstar?

  • Drumlins Rock

    I still trying to decide if I can be offended by such tacky “artwork”, of course it shouldn’t be there but the drawing is sooo bad it could make even Gerry Adams blush with embarrassment.

  • Reader

    Grandimarkey: This thread has what-a-boutery written all over it.
    In that many of the responses to the original post have included a quota of predictable whataboutery, certainly. The original post isn’t whataboutery – almost by definition.
    Next up – August bonfires.

  • lamhdearg

    are the bands any good?.

  • Roy Walsh

    Afraid what is most offensive to many is the way nationalists seem intent on aping their unionist neighbors with big drums, pipes etc. Could we please let this go and if there is a parade to commerate the dead do it without loyalist symbolism.

  • between the bridges

    lamhdearg…. from the clips no! (well maybe if you like the sound of two alley cats in a bin rolling down a hill.)

  • circles

    What about, what about, what about…. ad infinitum.

    Quincey, dry your eyes and give us some news on those 27 other parades too please for a bit of balance. Oh hold on, balance isn’t what you’re interested in at all is it? You just want to point and winge and say “look mummy, they do it too”.

    But the fact that republican bands can be almost as idiotic as any blood and thunder orange band, doesn’t make the orange bands or orange parades any better nor their behaviour any more acceptable.
    Outlaw the lot – green and orange – and give us all a break in the summer. Of course the orange men won’t like this as walking up and down streets where they’re not necessarily wanted and nbanging on a big drum after spending a night burning thier rubbish is about the sum total of orange culture and identity in the summertime.

  • lamhdearg

    cirles
    as you say “other 27” the band parading trad is in the main a non irish thing, so “outlaw the lot” would hit the non irish nats side, what 27 times as much as the irish nats, no if we are to outlaw the bands, we need parity of esteem, may i sugest outlawing the G.a.a.. no.

  • between the bridges

    circles….given the number of blogs on PUL parades on slugger this blog is exaclty what you ask for ie ‘a bit of balance’

  • Joe Bloggs

    In the interests of equality a ban on Loyalist parades must surely be followed by the outlawing of the GAA or Irish Language.

    It’s up to you circles…..

  • Dullypicker

    Chris Donnelly says:
    “were republicans to be seeking to march into or past loyalist communities, then you’d have grounds for complaint.

    But, unfortunately for you, republicans have consistently shown unionists how it should be possible to have a parading culture without heightening community tensions by not seeking to goad ‘the other’ in the manner that remains all too typical of loyalist parading culture.”

    I’m quite sure Magherafelt, would be a good example of where participants in Republican parades go out of their way to “goad ‘the other’” whilst marching “into or past loyalist communities” in what is an evenly mixed area.

    You see Chris, like it or not, Northern Ireland is a shared community, which is exactly where problems in interface areas arise from. Both sides of the community must share this little bit of greenery and learn to co-exist.
    You would have us believe that the likes of the Orange Order, sit in a smoky darkened room and plot about them, as to where they could hold the next parade in order to annoy the other side. You’re a big one for using the word “Demographic”. Quite simply, Demographics change. Look at Londonderry.
    Before the troubles, the city side had a population of over Sixteen Thousand Protestants. This figure has been almost totally wiped out due to the culture of intimidation which led to the ‘Exodus’ of the majority of this number in just 3 to 4 years from ’69 to ’73 leaving only the 500 inhabitants of the Fountain Estate left on the city side.
    What I’m getting at is, many of these “contentious” routes pass through what are ‘now’ mixed areas, in order to return home, as they have, since there inception, when many of these areas would have been exclusive to the community wishing to pass through them.
    Parades are not a deliberate attempt to intimidate the other side, but in this “Shared Society” there will of course be those who object to the existence of anyone but their own.
    I believe the original article above is an attempt to highlight the difference with which Republican Parades are tolerated in comparison to the stringency now placed upon the Protestant Tradition. Perhaps if the same rules were enforced across the board,we could begin to co-exist.

  • I personally feel its bad practise to comment on your own blog and its something i will be avoiding in the future (just a personal opinion, not judging anyone else). To put it bluntly, answering challenges/ allegations simply could go on ad-infinitum.

    However purely for clarity, the blog post is a factual account. Each element mentioned is fact. This blog is about the parade on Sunday, nothing else. Its a stand alone blog. For those interested, here is footage of the entire parade from one vantage point:-

    http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=GB#/watch?v=R2XobXvcSkk

  • Drumlins Rock

    Quincey, I personally feel it is bad practice not to clarify points raised, so I am glad you have, even just to acknowledge you have read them, certainly not follow up ad-infinitum. I will have a quick look at the parade, but imagine the music might not be to my taste.

  • andnowwhat

    I’m guessing this is some wee dig at nat/reps who object to certain loyal order marches.

    There are quite a few differences but an obvious one (and one the blogger is well aware of), such parades as the featured one are followed by and carried out by a tiny minority who do not represent the vast majority of republicans, never mind nationalists.

    Also, I ma sure it would not make the derisory claim that loyal orders make, that it is cultural and nor would it claim to represent catholic culture as the loyal orders disingenuously claim to do in relation to protestants (so they can play the sectarian card).

  • foyle observer

    ”Hi, my name is Quincey Dougan, and i object to the Irish having a National Anthem. Oh, i also object to Republicans parading through their own streets, far away from Unionist areas, unlike my own breatheren”

    Yawn.

  • between the bridges

    Bass drum showing hooded gunman with an armalite and the only CNR poster to give any comment on it is a rather lame
    ‘I personally don’t like the military icons on drums ‘

  • Skinner

    “their own streets”

    Feck me.

  • sonofstrongbow

    LOL! Some of the responses are proof positive that Irish Republicans don’t like it up ’em.

    Is this Day 1 of Irish Republican Garbage Watch?

  • Joe Bloggs

    foyle observer (profile)
    2 August 2011 at 1:43 pm

    ”Hi, my name is Quincey Dougan, and i object to the Irish having a National Anthem. Oh, i also object to Republicans parading through their own streets, far away from Unionist areas, unlike my own breatheren”

    Yawn.

    – – – – – – –

    You must have missed the bit where they purposely went out of their way to march past an isolated protestant church…

  • grandimarkey

    between the bridges 2 August 2011 at 2:06 pm:

    Bass drum showing hooded gunman with an armalite and the only CNR poster to give any comment on it is a rather lame
    ‘I personally don’t like the military icons on drums ‘

    BTB – Check out my post @ 11:45 am

  • Chris Donnelly

    Dullypicker
    I’m quite content with the north of Ireland being a shared society. Indeed, I think you’ll find it is unionist representatives who have a greater difficulty with embracing the notion of a shared and equal society for Irish nationalists and British/ Ulster unionists- hence Maurice Morrow’s rage at the suggestion of voting rights for northern citizens in future Irish Presidential elections on Talkback today.

    You’re on rather shaky ground on the demographic point, unless you are willing to support a republican parade through Rathcoole justified on the basis that Bobby Sands, Jim Gibney and other notable republicans used to reside in the once mixed estate. Perhaps you’ll clairfy this point?

    You are doubtlessly correct in pointing to the motivation behind Quincy’s thread. However, it is a fallacy, not least because the vast majority of loyalist parades proceed without any bother precisely because they do so in areas where they are welcome. Similarly, almost all republican parades proceed without bother because they take place in areas like Dungiven, which are overwhelmingly nationalist.

    Jettisoning the victim mentality with regard to contentious parades will be a pre-requisite step for the Loyal Orders and their followers as they seek to find a way to carve out a stable and non-contentious future for their tradition.

    I can recall a time when republicans used to march passed the Suffolk estate in west Belfast. When loyalists objected and blocked the route, the initial reaction of many republicans was one of anger.

    They could have played the games many Orange apologists do and complain about the absence of vocal opposition before then, or indeed suggested that many protestants enjoyed the parade.

    But, instead, they opted to simply reroute the parade, removing the contentious issue and ensuring the focus for future commemorative parades remained on the day’s theme.

    There’s a lesson in there….

  • Clanky

    Chris, the fact that Loyalists do it doesn’t make it acceptable for nationalists to do the same, if anything, having been very vociferous as to the damage that loyalist parades do to the concept of a shared communkty then nationalists should be even more keen to stamp out such nonsense.

    All of the drum banging taunting at each other, no matter from which community can only be counter-productive to anyone who wants progress in ireland. It is one thing to talk about heritage and culture, but when that culture is based on sticking to the other side and commemorating terrorists then maybe we would ll be better saying stuff the culture and the history and working towards a better future.

    As a nationalist I find the orange parades repulsive, I cannot see the point in a bunch of people banging drums and proclaiming there allegiance to one side of a battle that no-one in their right mind seems to have the heart to fight any more. Republican parades sicken me even more as they seem to be more about mimicking the darker side of loyalism than working towards a better society for the nationalist community in the north of Ireland.

  • SethS

    “Dungiven is demographically an overwhelmingly nationalist town, akin in that regard to Bangor, East Belfast Carrick, Sandy Row or- indeed- Ballyclare in terms of their loyalist profile.”

    Nationalist does not necessarily equate to republican, just a protestant area does not imply support for loyalist terrorism.

    I can’t say I know the profle of Dungiven, but I daresay there are a fair number of nationalists (to use your term) who are thoroughly disgusted by the whole carry on.

    Personally I do not see the point of parades except as an exercise in winding up the “other side”, and stopping everyone else going about their normal business.

  • between the bridges

    grandm…i stand corrected there was also…
    ‘Marching with a balaclava-ed, gun wielding Ra man on the side of a drum is well, a bit tacky.’

  • Reader

    Chris Donnelly: I can recall a time when republicans used to march passed the Suffolk estate in west Belfast. When loyalists objected and blocked the route, the initial reaction of many republicans was one of anger.
    Chris, I found your whole contribution was interesting and should be a challenge to some less thoughtful posters. However, I wanted to pick at just a couple of points from the above paragraph.
    When did this happen – was it before or after the Drumcree row started?
    You mentioned republican anger. We have seen a lot of marching related anger, and it may be helpful to see why it sometimes boils out of control and sometimes it can be managed – so: What was the cause of that anger? [intentionally incomplete pick-list – (1) Supremacist resentment, (2) MOPE offense, etc.]

  • Dec

    ‘You must have missed the bit where they purposely went out of their way to march past an isolated protestant church…’

    First of all, Quincey has yet to substantiate that remark and secondly the church is hardly isolated as it’s located on new Street just of Main street in Dungiven.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/New_Street%2C_Dungiven_-_geograph.org.uk_-_594477.jpg

  • Joe Bloggs

    Dec (profile)
    2 August 2011 at 4:04 pm

    ‘You must have missed the bit where they purposely went out of their way to march past an isolated protestant church…’

    First of all, Quincey has yet to substantiate that remark and secondly the church is hardly isolated as it’s located on new Street just of Main street in Dungiven.

    – – – – – – – –

    So themmuns’ churches on main roads are fair game?

    No more complaints about St Matthews on Newtownards Road from now on then???

  • BloodThunder

    Lovely nationalist hypocrisy thus far in this topic . The fact of the matter is that 99.9% of ‘Orange bands’ (a term in itself which highlights the lack of knowledge about unionist parading culture) adhere to the rules regarding parades set down by the PC. Republican bands, by contrast, consistently break rules regarding paramilitary emblems and symbols, whether it be the gun toting painting as seen above or paramilitary fatigues worn by the bands. The argument that the parade was in Dungiven does not wash. It is still illegal and offensive. Nationalists in this thread have proven that they hate all Orange Order parades no matter where they happen. One poster has even tried to use the volume of loyalist parades to deflect from the republican terror marches simply because less of them happen. The fact of the matter is that less rules are broken by this bigger demographic of loyalism than this hate-filled smaller republican demographic.

  • JackCade

    As someone from Dungiven, (but knows very little of these things) I find it hard to believe that the route was chosen to offend. The Kevin Lynch memorial is very close to the church, and it’s on the main street which is the more probable reason. Community relations are relatively good to my knowledge. A couple of weeks ago the folks from the Presbyterian church helped do up the town for the ulster fladh.
    The chanting is a bit strange though- considering Lynch was in the inla.

  • Parading by it’s very nature is triumphalist, compounds division and is counter-productive to building a shared future.

    Orange Order parades are a cold house for Nationalists and will continue to be so until they choose to progress with the times and in revise their archaic ban on Catholics (and even those whose close relatives are Catholic according to Wikipedia) from joining.

    Equally, I don’t think I’d find many from a Unionist/Protestant tradition who would feel comfortable watching the Republican parade above – imagery and icons that should be in a museum.

    As for banging drums outside the “other sides” places of worship – Grow up.

    How much further along would Northern Ireland be if parading was taken out of the equation?

  • Dec

    Joe Bloggs

    ‘No more complaints about St Matthews on Newtownards Road from now on then???’

    Only if those marching break the restrictions set out by the Parades Commission. Reasonable, no?

  • CharlieMcCarthy29

    Given the deep divisions which have existed for centuries in N.I. it is virtually impossible for any “political” parade not to offend someone. Those small numbers who deliberately set out to offend are to be despised. For those who don’t like these parades, stay away and let your acquaintances know how you feel .

  • Joe Bloggs

    Dec (profile)
    2 August 2011 at 4:56 pm

    Only if those marching break the restrictions set out by the Parades Commission. Reasonable, no?

    – – – – – – – – – –

    There would be no need for restrictions if it wasn’t for Nationalists’ hypocritical MOPEry.

    “We can bang drums with IRA gunmen painted on them outside your place of worship but you aren’t even allowed to play a hymn outside ours…”

  • Dec

    Joe Bloggs

    An yes ‘hymns’…lyrics by God, tune by him that wrote ‘The Sash’. Anyway, i’ve wasted enough time feeding you…bye

  • ayeYerMa

    Hilarious to see Donnelly squirming and getting a taste of his own medicine for a change. Donnelly’s followers squirming along too asking for “balance”, as if they ever cared before. :/

    Good to see that Slugger has a few more bloggers coming along to balance out Donnelly, though I think Slugger has still a long way to go before it ever becomes representative of Northern Ireland’s demographics.

  • Brian

    When did Republican bands and parades start up, anyway? Why did they ape this loyalist and unionist pastime?

    It’s all stupid and pointless.

    If anyone wants to parade, how bout you leave out references to paramilitaries, murderors, and gunmen…or is that your only thing to celebrate?

    NI is such a sh*thole, glad I got out in my youth.

  • Chris Donnelly

    Reader
    If memory serves me correctly, the loyalist blockade outside of Woodburn Barracks during the republican internment parade happened sometime in the mid to late 90s, around the time of Drumcree.

    Wisely, subsequent republican parades were routed through Lenadoon to avoid the interface- hence the reason this parade controversy has been consigned to the history books.

    ayeyerma
    There are many bloggers on Slugger with a political viewpoint rather hostile to republicanism. They are perfectly entitled to that and indeed an essential part of why Slugger works- there’s something everybody will find to agree and disagree with.

    That republicans don’t get themselves into a tizzy about the posts of non-nationalists is something that should make you pause and think before producing such silly rants as that above.

  • west-east

    just a thought does any of these bands with the machine guns on the drums attened sein fein organised events or parades

    It would be a bit hypocritical of sein fein to complain about pul parades and have these types of displays going on with there own parades and events one would think

  • bumper14

    Looks like Sinnfein’s sister organisation, the Parades commission , has turned a blind eye again to Republicans blatant disregard for adhering to any sort of rule , in fact they dont even bother imposing restrictions on these vile displays of bigotry by Nationalists.

  • CharlieMcCarthy29

    ..Sinnfein’s sister organisation, the Parades commission..

    As the old saying goes, just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.

  • Drumlins Rock

    “Equally, I don’t think I’d find many from a Unionist/Protestant tradition who would feel comfortable watching the Republican parade above – imagery and icons that should be in a museum.”

    That is true Barry, however as a Unionist I have no problem whatsoever watching a Catholic or Nationalist parade, and have done so numerous times, I might not agree with the symbolism involved but I don’t find it offensive. However anything that glorifies the barbaric butchers of the IRA & INLA does offend and sicken me, as does that of of the UVF or UDA.

  • BloodThunder

    “just a thought does any of these bands with the machine guns on the drums attened sein fein organised events or parades

    It would be a bit hypocritical of sein fein to complain about pul parades and have these types of displays going on with there own parades and events one would think”

    Sinn Fein seem to think they can balance present condemnation of violence (i.e. the Kerr murder) with glorification of past murder (i.e. hunger strike commemorations in which these paramilitary bands take part.) Republicanism remains wedded to its bloody past and seems to think violence is acceptable so long as the Provisional IRA did it.

  • antamadan

    I’ m driven to supporting the banning of all sectional parades until NI society kops on. Surely orange (and a few republican) bands could have their ‘demonstrations’ in parks (within areas or their own supporters) without any marches outside. If that is good enough for Pavarotti, Rolling Stones etc., surely it is good enough for orange and republican bands.

  • CharlieMcCarthy29

    Don’t be so silly, antamadan. That would be too sensible and wouldn’t give the few the chance to give offence or others, or allow some, a few of who travel considerable distances, to take offence.

  • bystander

    Think its a bit strange that the media stays so quiet on these types of events, if Peter Robinson took part in such a parade all hell would be let loose. So when nationalists say on here this is only a small rump of republican culture, and no one bothers to tell Marty DFM, who looks happy watching marching bands when he attended this event I’m sure with pride.The PC have no interest in republican parades whether illegal or not, as their only remit is to aid republicans in attempting to destroy the loyalist marching culture in Northern Ireland. Happily they have only been successful in strengthing it by uniting us like never before

  • circles

    Lamhdearg and Joe Bloggs:
    You’ve obviously never heard of how useless it is to compare apples and pears have you?
    Its taken me all this time to try and work out if you were just taking the mickey or you meant that seriously. I still haven’t quite worked it out.

  • lamhdearg

    circles,
    i was hopeing you would come back with “dont be silly” so that i could retort “well you started it”. as a irish nat (you are a irish nat?) you don’t know how much the band/orange parade’s mean to people like me, when someone says ban the lot, to me,it means f**k you, and when i am told that i say, f**k you back, if irish nats continue with their war on everything that is not irish nats, then non irish nats will reciprocate, i do not want that i want both (and other cultures) to thrive in Ulster, but “turn the other cheek” it’s just not me.

  • Nunoftheabove

    leamhdearg

    Glad to see you repudiating one of the many immoral tenets of the christian belief system. Do yourself a favour and jettison the whole mess and you might just be onto something.

  • lamhdearg

    nunoftheabove,
    i am not a christian. christ the man (my view) was a good man, but i do not try/claim to follow his teachings (as laid down in the bible). why would you think turn the other cheek is immoral, impracticable maybe but immoral?,but maybe we should leave that for another thread, this one is one of the few over the last couple off months that has as its starting point the Fact that its not only the O.O. that walk Ulsters streets.

  • Nunoftheabove

    lamdearg

    It’s a pacifistic if not masochistic charter. Turning the other cheek is just a faux modest way of allowing oneself to be serially taken advantaged of and an injunction to bow down to unfairness, injustice, prejudice and cruelty of literally every description. without defined limit. If that’s not immoral then what is it ?

  • lamhdearg

    nunoftheabove,
    i will have to leave it to believers to counter your view, as i said its not me, i am more of an eye for an eye, but that also has its down side, i guess we should float between the two. how do you think that folks that come on here complaining that O.O./band parades are bad and should be outlawed because for one thing they play tunes as they pass churches, should these folk pay more attention to the plank in their own eye.

  • lamhdearg

    how read now, sorry.

  • CharlieMcCarthy29

    Turning the other cheek

    Nunoftheabove,

    It’s simply the best choice sometimes when someone is trying to wind you up. Walk away in distain.

  • CharlieMcCarthy29

    disdain even.

  • separatesix

    I notice the Hibernians claim to be a religious organisation why then do they allow millitaristic republican flute bands to tag along to their demonstrations.

  • HeinzGuderian

    Just one more reason why our Southern Brethren want nothing to do with them !! 🙂

  • Nunoftheabove

    CharlieMcCarthy29

    In other words, it can work as a tactic in certain circumstances but as a principle, it sucks.

  • CharlieMcCarthy29

    Yes, Nunoftheabove.

  • CharlieMcCarthy29

    Turning your back, rather than your cheek, is a win. It’s certainly a loss to the wind-up merchant who hoped to devastate you with his brilliance. Turn your head and eyes upwards to the side, smile and walk away.(I even have, sparingly and with a lot of circumspection, used the technique with my better half. Nobody wins such “discussions” but the make-up sex can be very satisfying.)

  • carl marks

    Could someone explain to me why these people (green and orange) want to march?
    It seems to me such a bloody stupid way to spend your time you block the traffic , hold people back from their business and always somebody gets offended,
    Pride I can accept it’s in the city centre colourful and more like a mardi gras than our traditional exercises in annoying the other side

  • carl marks

    by the way that’s the censored version of my opinion of all marchers, if i put my real opinion down id get a black card and someone might sue me for there all a bunch of (edited for use of profane and obscene language)

  • carl marks

    separatesix (profile) says:
    3 August 2011 at 9:59 pm

    I notice the Hibernians claim to be a religious organisation why then do they allow millitaristic republican flute bands to tag along to their demonstrations.
    thats a very good point but watch it, it,s double sided it equally could be used against the orange order.

  • circles

    lamhdearg:
    My problem here isn’t necessarily with the OO, but with all marches that use militaristic behaviour to intimidate those who don’t belong to the marching group. By this I mean forcing marches through streets where they are not welcome, playing particularly provocative songs at sensitve areas in the parade (for example in front of religious buildings or where people have been murdered), using symbols in a heavy handed and provocative manner just to wind people up.
    What is supposed to thrive in this kind of culture? Is it a culture of fear and distrust and mutual antagonism we’re aiming at here?

    So I’d be interested in knowing what it is about the bands and parades that mean so much to unionists like yourself. Do they have to provoke to be cultural? Does there have to be an element of having outdone “the others” for it to feel like it has been a good marching season? If not, then why are there these stand-offs every year? Why is there a determined refusal to adapt parade routes or even to limit them to areas where people feel proud to see them? Or is part of the pride the fact that they can pass through areas where people don’t want them?

    And these questions, LamhDearg, I would apply to every “tribal” march – whether its the orange or the green tribe. The fact that the vast majority of these parades are from the “orange tribe” of course means that this is a bigger issue for you. Maybe – to use your “parity of esteem” logic – these hardcoe provocative republican bands should be givien more money so we can have just as many of those parades as we do orange ones. Does that sound sensible to you?

  • lamhdearg

    circles,
    i have only a moment, so i shall skirt over some of your points, and get back to you later i more detail.

    the parades i like the best are the ones that are not attacked, as i am out for a good day and feeling that i may get a brick to the head is not conducive to that. there are stand offs every year because a lot of folk in Ulster (like every where else) are not capable of tollerance off anything but their view on everything. there are many reasons to refuse to adapt routes, and each parade would need to be looked at on its own merits, lastly for now, i am not aware the bands of the loyal type are given money, but collected it from the local communitys form which they reside, but if they are then i am sure the irish nats bands could apply. catch ya later i am late for work.

  • west-east

    circles
    The only group that have received Millons of pounds of public money and are a one sided group is the nationalist GAA am afraid bands get very little public funds and this is clear discrimination

    I think you are entitled to have as many parades as you like think one of the reasons you dont is the display and machinguns on the side of drums if you had more parades would this not let the cat out of the bag so to speak

    anyway back to the pul bands that can display in public pretty much anywhere open and transparent think its time they got some of the public funds that have been directed at the GAA

  • circles

    Just to clarify my point before anybody tries to use it to distract from the actual discussion.

    I was not saying that orange bands get direct funding and as such republican bands should too – i was being sarcastic and using lamhedearg’s twited use of the concept of “parity of esteem” by suggesting that in order to have as many provocative parades as the OO, republicans should receive financing so that they can annoy their neighbours just as much.

    I find the very idea that public money should be spent in any way on these “celebrations” to be absolutely absurd – whether that be to fund bands, parades or even to pay for the security problems directly caused by the disorder provoked by these parades. The security bill could be saved and the money spent better elsewhere if these parades were limited to areas where people welcomed them.

    Regarding the rest of your post west-east – I don’t know if you have misplaced the full-stop and shift button on your keyboard or what, but I really haven#t a clue what you were trying to say.

  • west-east

    Think you do circles- should the nationalist GAA get public money if the unionist Bands get none.

    Funny thing when we bring up the subject of the millons the GAA get people haven#t a clue what to say.

    Tell me circles in your sarcastic way should money be spent on the GAA am sure to you public money going to such an organisation in your words would be absolutley absurd .

    ps hope i got all the full stops old boy.

  • circles

    west-east: You’re not going to get me caught up in some childish game of compare my apples to your pears. Equating the GAA to orange order marches is ridiculous. Have 2 GAA clubs ever insisted on holding a match in your street? Have you been barricaded into your house to ensure that a match has been able to be completed where you live? Has a GAA team ever stood at a point where a sectarian murder occurred and sang sectarian songs celebrating the killers?

    I’m talking about antagonistic parades. If you’re interested in talking about that, I’d be interested in reading what you have to say. If you want to continue banging your GAA financing drum (which has nothing to do with this issue) and avoid talking about the offense these parades can cause to those not marching (either unionist, loyalist, nationalist or republican) then I’d say you’re posts are irrleevant here.

    Still at least you’ve found your full stops and shift button.

  • west-east

    No time today circle to discuss the discussed as it has been discussed so many times on slugger .

    But maybe a new topic might allow us to discuss Bands and GAA funding in the future .

    By the way circle this post is about republican antagonistic parades if you are interested full stop.

  • Neil

    should the nationalist GAA get public money if the unionist Bands get none.

    The cost of policing parades across NI from 1 April to 31 July was £3.67m.

    Earlier this month, the PSNI chief constable, Matt Baggott revealed that dealing with four days of rioting in Ardoyne in July cost the police £1.1m.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11339718

    So West-East, that well over 2 million for parades, taking the costs of the rioting in Ardoyne out of the equation (that’s in assuming that the riots in Ardoyne are unrelated – a point many would argue against as if there were no parades through Nationlist areas there would be no riots).

    That obviously compares favourably to the fourteen million a year spunked up against a wall to cover the policing costs alone of the drumcree dispute:

    The RUC Chief Constable Sir Ronnie Flanagan put the annual cost of policing the Drumcree protest at £14m.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/385714.stm

    At the time I lived in Ballymena (I vividly recall being threatened by Loyalists for not shutting up shop one night) and on one night alone local Christians burned over 300 cars from Lindsay’s showrooms in protest at their Christian brethern’s inability to march through a hostile Catholic area.

    Those additional figures are not accounted for in the 14 million Hugh Orde says we spent ‘policing’ the dispute. So using your (piss poor) argument that this ‘Christian’ organisation should have equitable funding to a totally unrelated organisation (apples and pears argument), 14 million per year for 5 years plus 2 million a year every year going back for, say 20 years, means from now on the order will have to pay for it’s own policing, cleanup, etc., as they’ve breached 110 million pounds over 20 years, a sum the GAA can only dream of.

    Suddenly that equation between the GAA and the OO doesn’t seem so sound any more does it?

  • Neil

    i am not a christian. christ the man (my view) was a good man, but i do not try/claim to follow his teachings (as laid down in the bible)

    Lamhdearg,

    Can I query why you attend or participate in parades in what we are regularly told is solely a Christian religious organisation (and in no way an excuse for some sectarian triumphalism) if you are not a Christian? I’m assuming you can’t be a member straight out as:

    An Orangeman should have a sincere love and veneration for his Heavenly Father; a humble and steadfast faith in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, believing in Him as the only Mediator between God and man.

    So what is the attraction of a solely Protestant organisation to an athiest? Incidentally nice to see your style of posting change back to normal after your 12th fortnight where your ability to spell seemed to take a serious dip. Someone else operating the PC for a wee while?

  • Drumlins Rock

    Neil, your right in saying membership of the Orange Order requires an expression of Christian faith, however this does not apply to bands, which are open to all creeds and none, and spectating certainly dosn’t count as an expression of faith, but simply an interest in that culture. This may be hard for you to understand, but watching and taking part in parades is generally a most enjoyable experience, and as the vast vast majority of them take place in “unionist” communities it is hard to see how the are triumpalist.

  • Neil

    This may be hard for you to understand, but watching and taking part in parades is generally a most enjoyable experience, and as the vast vast majority of them take place in “unionist” communities it is hard to see how the are triumpalist.

    Not hard to understand at all DR. And the triumphalist parades by definition are the ones that occur or pass through Nationalist areas.

  • between the bridges

    nail..’And the triumphalist parades by definition are the ones that occur or pass through Nationalist areas.’

    so by your own ‘logic’ in a 70% PUL area the parade isn’t triumphalist by definition and the 30% need to find another excuse to be already offended?

  • Neil

    BTB,

    well that would depend on how you define a Unionist area wouldn’t it? I don’t think I mentioned 70% being a specific cut off, one might suggest that a 30% minority would make an area mixed? I was thinking of say Broughshane, the Shankill, that kind of place (>95% Unionist).

    By the way your habit of adjusting everyone whom you argue with’s name is ingenious, it helps your argument immensely. I hope you don;t mind if I do similar with your own handle and just refer to you as ballbag or something like that, you can call it being shown the same level of respect as you afford to others. But it’s good, in no way is it the behaviour of a petulant child who has little recourse to a decent debate and has to try to offend using some other method like name-calling. As I say, keep it up you’re making yourself look real good.

  • between the bridges

    nail, ballbag will do nicely ta for the compla lament.
    now back to your all defining logic where would you place the cutoff point? 0.1%/ 99.9%?

  • between the bridges

    ophs my bad! i see 95%, so if dungiven has a 5% PUL community the parade that this topic refers to would not take place, using your rule/logic?

  • Drumlins Rock

    Neilly, be creative and call him “Burn The Bridges” or something like that!

  • lamhdearg

    neil.
    jews do not follow the teaching to christ but jews are not atheist, an atheist is someone that believes there is no god.
    i go to band parades because i like to listen to them play there music on the street, i think its the drums.

    “Incidentally nice to see your style of posting change back to normal after your 12th fortnight where your ability to spell seemed to take a serious dip. Someone else operating the PC for a wee while?”
    my spelling is atrocious at the best of times, but over the holidays i was probaly churning out comments quickly, and without checking them in an attempt to counter the annual july non irish nats bashing.
    when is mark mcg back anyway, i miss him.