Bigotry and NI’s regressive game of tit and tit for tat…

Broadsheet.ie has the pair. Ian McCrea’s fervent wish that his own county GAA would get beaten by the Republic’s Donegal side, so that celebrations would be kept out of his Mid Ulster constituency, and his father’s this fake Twitter account report of an attack on Ian’s car in ‘reprisal’ for Mr McCrea (junior)’s remarks.

Be careful what you say we were always told growing up. Someone clearly thinks that criticism of the GAA (or rather some of its supporters) warrants such a violent physical attack. Should Mr McCrea bite his lip next time? Or should some people learn to live with the fact that not all of their neighbours see things the way they do?

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  • galloglaigh

    Eddie, I suppose the argument of the sports bag would fit certain people better, if it were a Rangers/Celtic hold all.

    This is getting away from the point. Should McCrea have kept his bigoted opinion to himself?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Iluvni

    For your information. Just a sample.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zwpxw-52Co

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13443173

    http://www.u.tv/sport/GAA-tribute-to-Omagh-bomb-victim/51b46821-1b14-48b0-9968-3161092e64db

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/policemans-funeral-hears-plea-to-end-violence-15138590.html

    http://www.belb.org.uk/Documents/265.pdf

    http://ulster.gaa.ie/2008/03/03/belfast-cuchullains-american-tour-2008/

    http://www.gaainfo.com/club.php?co=irishunis&club=garnervillegaels

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7rXhlSFz8Y

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPw2d2W1IJ0

    (The last one, the Edward Carson Cuo, is not a GAA event, but I’ve included it because I think Sammy Douglas deserves to be praised for being enlightened enough to accept the hand of friendship when it’s offered.)

    I could also add that, over and above all of this, the GAA and GAA people have forgiven a great deal.

    If everyone played their part in building to the peace, to even half the extent that the GAA has, and continues to, we’d be more peaceful than Switzerland.

  • between the bridges

    GG, are mccrea’s views (on GAA) bigoted? If a CNR doesn’t support northern Ireland does that make them a bigot? if i don’t support my local tiddlywinks team am i a bigot?

  • Eddie (Eamonn) Mac Bhloscaidh

    Galloglaigh,

    Personally, I dont care what McCrea’s opinion is.

    I just thought it would be interesting to ascertain what the GAA, for example, would have to be to be acceptable (i.e to cease the war of words).

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Mick

    “I hope you are not deliberately misconstruing whats being said? ‘Mirror image’ here was a ref to external attitudes, not the things themselves.”

    That’s an absurd argument. One might equally argue that southern blacks and the Ku Klux Klan are equivalents, since each has an equally low opinion of the other. How the hell can you talk about attitudes, while ignoring the objective reality?

    Even if it were true that there was a general PUL community hostility towards the GAA (and it isn’t – McCrea’s attitudes are towards the extreme end, and though PUL participation at club level is still low, though far from unheard-of, there has always been some PUL attendance at county games), it’s important to point out that such hostility is wrong, it is unjustified and unjustifiable.

    CNR community attitudes towards the Orange Order, on the other hand, are spot on. Because there is one, huge difference, between the two, and it’s this:

    The GAA does not harm the PUL community. generally, protestants, unionists, loyalists can live their whole lives and never be affected one iota by the GAA. The PUL community may not like the GAA, but it has no actual grievances with it.

    The nationalist community and the OO – well, that’s another story. The Orange Order has played a direct, malign role in the lives of the CNR community for centuries, and it has always, always existed for precisely that purpose.

  • between the bridges

    Eddie, change name of clubs/grounds/competitions, neutral flag and anthem, scrap the fighting with sticks game, amalgamate fermanagh with tryone, have a blood and thunder band at half time and then us ones will find something else to whinge about….

  • tacapall

    In addition Billy the GAA is open to all, regardless of religion and is indeed played by many from the PU tradition something I dont believe can be said of the OO.

  • bumper14

    Ian McRea’s opinion about the GAA was not bigoted but a view that is entirely legitimate in light of the raucous and unruly celebrations of Londonderry and Tyrone fans. These “celebrations” have often included sectarian abuse directed at members of the Protestant community after their teams win. I wish Ian McRea well and hope he stands up to these Nazi style thugs who attacked his family in this way. These SCUM and those that torched Inver Orange hall are the same breed that was responsible for “Kristallnacht” and seem bent on dragging Ulster into something that is reminiscent of 30s Germany.

  • galloglaigh

    If a Catholic/nationalist/republican doesn’t support Northern Ireland, they are not bigoted. If they go on Twitter and actively provoke a reaction from ‘the other side’, then that is bigoted. McCrea should have kept his trap shut. His views would be more welcome at his local BigotFest celebrations, not for the whole World to see on Twitter. Whatever about free speech, he has to represent all of his flock, and keep his personal views to himself.

    I will again highlight his excuse: He didn’t want public money spent on honouring the Tyrone GAA team. He feels it appropriate for public money (in the millions per year) to be spent promoting, policing, putting out, and cleaning up after bonfires. He’s making statements that don’t make sense. He’s a hypocrite, as well as a bigot.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    BtB

    In all seriousness, I think your 11.00pm post was admirably honest. Fair play to you.

  • Eddie (Eamonn) Mac Bhloscaidh

    ‘between the bridges’

    I detect a hint of jest in your post, but also a grain of truth.

  • galloglaigh

    Bumper 14, I don’t suppose you have any evidence to support your argument of GAA fans being involved in “sectarian abuse directed at members of the Protestant community after their teams win”. I won’t hold my breath!

    The annual BigotFest across ‘Ulster’ is something that is reminiscent of 15th, 16th, 17th, and 18th century contempt for anything Irish or Catholic. It’s the 21st century. Unionism has a long way to go, in order to catch up with the changes that have occurred within nationalism.

    If only people like you could see that.

  • iluvni

    galloglaigh,

    Given that over the years, there has been no discernable increase in the numbers of the ‘other’ community playing in senior teams in Ulster, maybe its time for affirmative action, similar to that of the Springboks in S Africa.
    Support that idea?

  • bumper14

    galloglaigh. You obviously think is OK for GAA thugs to burn someones car because they dont agree with what that person said. Do you then think it is OK if ,for example , after the Orange Order have been lambasted for a perceived wrong they might have inflicted on the Catholic community, that some of their members attack that lambasters property?
    Come on man condemn it without reservation!

  • SK

    “SK methinks point proven…”

    BTB,

    The OO chooses politicise itself- listen to the 12th July speeches next week if you have any doubt about it.

    An organisation that chooses to politicise itself, cannot complain about being subject to political attack. If the brethren can’t take it, then they shouldn’t be dishing it out.

  • SK

    “Ian McRea’s opinion about the GAA was not bigoted but a view that is entirely legitimate in light of the raucous and unruly celebrations of Londonderry and Tyrone fans. These “celebrations” have often included sectarian abuse directed at members of the Protestant community after their teams win. I wish Ian McRea well and hope he stands up to these Nazi style thugs who attacked his family in this way. These SCUM and those that torched Inver Orange hall are the same breed that was responsible for “Kristallnacht” and seem bent on dragging Ulster into something that is reminiscent of 30s Germany.”

    _

    Yeah but who do you fancy for the final?

  • tacapall

    “after the Orange Order have been lambasted for a perceived wrong they might have inflicted on the Catholic community, that some of their members attack that lambasters property”

    Drumcree, Springfield Rd, Shortstrand im sure theres plenty of other last stands.

  • Eddie (Eamonn) Mac Bhloscaidh

    I know it is late, but I am surprised that no one came up with a list of conditions for GAA acceptance.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Iluvni

    “Given that over the years, there has been no discernable increase in the numbers of the ‘other’ community playing in senior teams in Ulster, maybe its time for affirmative action, similar to that of the Springboks in S Africa.”

    If I understand you correctly, you think the GAA should force Protestants to play Gaelic games? How would that work?

    The more pertinent question is, when will the PUL community lift its unjustified and unjustifiable boycott of the exemplary organisation that is the GAA?

    The GAA has shown decency towards the PUL community, time and again. It’s time for the PUL community to show some decency in return – or perhaps a more accurate statement would be that it’s time for the more bad-minded extremes in the PUL community to allow decent PUL people to get involved with the GAA, as many would like to.

    There is no excuse for such bad-mindedness in this day and age.

    (Any thoughts on those several examples above, as you requested?)

  • galloglaigh

    Bumper 14. You obviously know something that the rest of us don’t. There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER, to suggests that the attack had anything to do with the GAA. McCrea said it himself, as did the PSNI. If you have any information, you should contact the PSNI on: 0845 600 8000. Don’t use your mobile though, it’ll cost you a fortune. Still waiting on evidence from you by the way. Still not holding my breath.

    iluvni, I’d be up for anything that promotes mutual understanding. Bumper 14 is the epitome of loyalism; no room for change, nor the will to change. That is counter productive in this day and age. Would you agree?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Eddie (Eamonn)

    “I know it is late, but I am surprised that no one came up with a list of conditions for GAA acceptance.”

    Between the Bridges did. Seriously, it was the most honest answer you could hope to get.

    Many PUL people are already at peace with the GAA. Some will never be. So it goes.

  • bumper14

    gallolaigh. Are you telling me you didn’t see GAA top wearing rioters in the Holy land 2 years back on St Patricks day? And then there was that mayhem for two two years in a row when GAA fans attempted to burn to death Protestant marchers and the PSNI at Ardoyne, not to mention the vile sectarian abuse directed at Darren Graham and the attack on his home. Need I go on?
    You can let out your breath now.

  • galloglaigh

    Billy Pilgrim, something just came to me while reading your post. The more extreme element within loyalism, the sort that won’t let more moderate Protestants play, or support the glorious game, are no better that ONH, the RIRA or the CIRA, who are trying to make nationalists think twice about a career in the PSNI.

    I know it’s a bit extreme given that loyalism has stopped murdering GAA players, while a small number of republicans continue to target and murder (Catholic) police officers.

    It’s just a thought!

  • Rory Carr

    Come on man condemn it without reservation!

    I am more than willing to respond to Bumper14’s demand and forthrightly condemn the burning of Ian McCrea’s vehicle without any reservation whatsoever.

    I would now like to know if he would care to react in like manner and withdraw his scurrillous and defamatory accusation that the burning was perpetrated by “GAA thugs” .

    Gaelic football, hurling, camogie these are sporting disciplines within the GAA remit, arson is not included.

  • galloglaigh

    Bumper, still no evidence presented to show that it was GAA members who burnt Mr McCrea’s car. Your clutching at straws now. Because people wear GAA tops when attacking the Orange Order or the PSNI, doesn’t mean it’s the GAA’s fault as an organisation. I seen a lad at one said riot you talk of wearing a Man Utd top. Does that mean that Man UTD organised and promoted the riot?

    Answers on a postcard, along with the evidence that the GAA burnt McCrea’s car. My face is almost purple by this stage!

  • nunoftheabove,

    “So you’re saying that these events happened and were not reported ….anywhere ?”

    Yes that is exactly what I am saying. It is widely believed that there is a blanket ban on reporting most things that are contrary to the current political narrative.

    “Let’s just be very very clear about what we’re saying and not saying here” – how about we just stick to what I said. Instead of trying to make up stuff or put words into my mouth in order to damage me.

    Let’s have facts, figures and measurable comparators for your view please. – Certainly, the bullet holes are still visible in the roof of the former UDR member’s house in Tobermore, bomb scares in Magherafelt, Maghera and Tobermore have gone on yet stay off the six o clock news but I’m sure an FOI request would clear up the issue for you. The attack on Augnagaskin Orange Hall went unreported by the news as do most attacks on orange halls unless the hall is destroyed. The houses attacked in Leckagh and Killowen stand evident of the attacks on property in those areas. The Orangeman who I spoke of is my gfs father, their house has been attacked three times in the last two weeks, my own house was targeted in the past year. windows were smashed in Tamlaght O crilly, bottles were thrown at houses in Tamlaght, the Orange Hall in Eden was paintbombed… none of this has been reported by the news or media.

    Are you saying that ‘equivalent’ attacks to these would have been reported as a matter of course and without question, hesitation or exception had they been aimed at, say, a catholic home, an AOH hall, a promiment Hibernian or GAA figure ? If you are saying this, what evidence do you have that this would have occurred ? — Where did I say that? You are trying to put words in my mouth and then you expect me to defend them, you try to add a sectarian element that was not there in my original comment. I know of attacks on Roman Catholic homes in Magherafelt and other areas which have gone unreported. I know of loyalists being arrested with pipebombs being found and no mention being made of the fact on the news. Police are told but do nothing for either community. The news and media are allegedly only allowed to post news that fits with the current “moving forward” program.

    I am saddened by your attempts to make out that I am prejudiced against those of differing faith or opinions, purely because I highlighted the allegedly impartial coverage of attacks.

  • nightrider

    It’s all gone a bit ‘Celtic and Rangers’. The 2 ‘elephants’ in any sports-or otherwise debate – in NI.
    Crossmaglen Rangers are an Armagh Gaelic soccer team. Why don’t they welcome Glasgow Rangers to a local match? In fact now that rule 21? has been dropped, include the Paras and Marines in a wee local kickabout.
    If we’re going to open up things why not go the whole hog?
    The GAA has not yet left it’s comfort zone. A (Down) match against the SAS, at Ballykinler, would set their association free, even though they’d get their arses kicked.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    “Crossmaglen Rangers are an Armagh Gaelic soccer team. Why don’t they welcome Glasgow Rangers to a local match?”

    Funniest thing I’ve ever seen on Slugger, hands down!

  • nightrider

    Rory Carr
    You forgot GAA Handball, not the Olympic variation, but the ancient Celtic one, still played in Whiterock Leisure Centre, to this very day.
    A bit like British ‘squash’ exept it’s not British, even if it’s the same thing.

  • iluvni

    Billy Pilgrim,
    Sorry missed your links there. The primary school one was a good one. Not too sure GSTQ at Croke Park matters really, or the Queen being there…the sour taste in the mouth with that was the snub delivered by Ulster GAA with the honourable exception of Down.

  • Barnshee

    “the sort that won’t let more moderate Protestants play, or support the glorious game”

    In 70 yeqars never met one -mind you never met a prod who would support the sectarian association that is then Gaw Aw

  • “O’Neil”

    Well, if it does, whose fault is that then, only the MSM? If Mick is happy enough to allow me to post on here, then I can’t see him having any objections to you doing the same.

    No offence but who is going to see it on here? The political class? If I post on an orange hall attacked in Mid Ulster on Slugger what would happen? 80 posts on why the OO is evil and then 20 posts on why the GAA is evil and what use is that to anyone?

  • galloglaigh

    Barnshee, as I have said before, Protestants from all over Ulster support teams like Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan and others. Just because you don’t know them, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. The GAA is not a sectarian association, and the links provided by myself and Billy Pilgrim have shown this. If you know different, put up a few links to the contrary.

  • nightrider

    galloglaigh
    If the GAA is not a sectarian organisation, then it needs to relinquish its links with the Catholic Church, and the damage that paedophile club would cause any institution.
    Meanwhile, games with the Army garrison here would settle the atmosphere. The British Army being a non sectarian organisation (plenty of catholics) that likes sports would probably co-operate, no problem.

  • Mick Fealty

    NIghtrider,

    Whilst you are entertaining other Sluggerites, just remember that Red Card you’re just after having can be very handily commuted to Black Spot.

  • nightrider

    @Mick Fealty
    Where is the line in the sand?
    There was no man playing, so the offence must have been personal. Presumably at the Church(es), take your pick. Any chance of a rugby style approach to these cards, let the spectators know why you’ve left the field of play?
    Or are the churches (1 especially) off limits for your site?
    I’m not the only one who thinks the rules should be made clear.

  • galloglaigh

    Whatever about nightrider’s continual efforts to portray himself as a sectarian bigot for the consumption of certain Sluggerites, there can be no possible justification for this attack on the Catholic Church.

  • nightrider

    galloglaigh
    As I personally know 3 Catholics in the Paras, and a LOT more in a Scottish Regiment, why would they have a hatred there?
    Why would paras or marines hate the RC Church? Since many of them were born into it.
    The UDR were not part of the Army’s general service.
    You’re getting very defensive, why is that?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Barnshee

    “In 70 years never met one – mind you never met a prod who would support the sectarian association that is then Gaw Aw”

    Not trying to be funny here, but how do you know? Perhaps they just didn’t talk to you about it – which, given your openly contemptuous attitude, would hardly be surprising.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Nightrider

    Aye, maybe the paras could put together a Gaelic soccer team…

  • Mick Fealty

    Nightrider,

    Just read the conditions. Talking utter nonsense is an abuse of the hospitality extended you here.

  • galloglaigh

    I’m getting just as defensive as your good self. What’s good for the goose and all that. The UDR were a British army regiment. They, and other regiments, were up to their eyes in collusion with loyalist sectarian murder gangs.

    Need I say any more?

  • nightrider

    Roger and out

  • galloglaigh

    Am I now being moderated for paraphrasing Martin McGuinness?

  • Devil Eire

    Mick Fealty:

    >>> It also allows entirely for your perfectly reasonable answer..

    Apparently a minority opinion. There is a thin line between rabble-rousing and encouraging debate.

    How would you rate the signal-to-noise ratio so far?

  • Nunoftheabove

    youngpolitico

    “It is widely believed that there is a blanket ban on reporting most things that are contrary to the current political narrative”.

    – Widely believed by who ? Based on what facts ?

    “… how about we just stick to what I said. Instead of trying to make up stuff or put words into my mouth in order to damage me”.

    – I’m asking you a few questions, you’re doing a very poor job of answering them. Stop projecting and being so self-pitying. Why would I possibly want to ‘damage’ you ?

    – So you’re now restricting your definition of the media to the six o’clock news ? So it’s a slightly narrower conspiracy than you’d earlier alluded to then ? Since when did a few bottles being thrown make it beyond the local papers if even made it there ?

    “You are trying to put words in my mouth and then you expect me to defend them, you try to add a sectarian element that was not there in my original comment”.

    – No, I’m asking you some questions, not my problem if you can’t discern the difference.

    “The news and media are allegedly only allowed to post news that fits with the current “moving forward” program”.

    – Alleged now…but not necessarily so ? Allowed ? By who ? Where is your evidence for this ?

    “I am saddened by your attempts to make out that I am prejudiced against those of differing faith or opinions, purely because I highlighted the allegedly impartial coverage of attacks”.

    – I have made out no such thing but by all means wallow in self-sorrow all you like. I have asked you to substantiate your theory and you’ve not produced any evidence to sustain your argument. Case dismsissed.

  • HeinzGuderian

    Depressing news indeed. Surely One should be able to express an opinion without fear of violent reprisal ?

    If it’s okay with you Nun,I’ll express myself in any way I like !!
    I trust there will be no violent reprisals on your part ?

  • Nunoftheabove

    HeinzGuderian

    Again, probably a couple of question marks too many for my taste (are you by any chance, like, Australian ?) but free expression’s free expression so – non-violently, of course – knock yourself out with the erotemization 😉

  • No offence but who is going to see it on here? The political class? If I post on an orange hall attacked in Mid Ulster on Slugger what would happen? 80 posts on why the OO is evil and then 20 posts on why the GAA is evil and what use is that to anyone

    Journalists read it, one of them might decide to run with it.
    But you need evidence, put photographs up like Moochin does when highlighting his problems with what he perceives is going on in East Belfast. The comments that follow are, to a large extent, irrelevant, people definitely read the post though.

    I do agree with your wider point, tactical decisions are being made at a governmental level, filtering down to our own political class and their mates in the media. Those decision on what to publicise, who to prosecute (eg it won’t be the UVF leadership in E Belfast facing the court, just a few of the teenie foot soldiers) are are being made in honour of maintaining the “Peace Process”. which does do a job at stopping widespread sectarian conflict from breaking out again but the realpolitik does occasionally stink.

  • (eg it won’t be the UVF leadership in E Belfast facing the court, just a few of the teenie foot soldiers)

    Or, in other words, the bast..ds leading the criminal actions of various sorts are untouchable and are given free passes. How long do we allow this repugnant situation to persist? When do we decide that peace is embedded and the “peace process” and the associated danegeld is over and done with?

  • Mick Fealty

    Devil,

    It’s a reasonable answer, but one I only partly agree with. It was weak of McC to hint at grievance but not articulate it. His (and our) job is made more difficult because the kind of low level agitation that goes on in places like Cookstown is barely newsworthy, and therefore discounted in debate at least initially.

    Those who say this has nothing to do with Tyrone GAA are in one sense dead right. It is idiotic to suggest otherwise. But it is harder to imagine a repeat of what happened at St Johns GAC, Leitrim (Co Down) – when it was attacked a few years back and the local Orange turned up the following day to help clear up the mess – in Tyrone.

    As for signal to noise, that’s because this is a dog whistle argument. It probably didnt help that I’d mistaken the secod acc for a genuine one. That and a few heads are overdue a good cracking.

  • between the bridges

    i am confused is it sport, religion or polictics? according to the GAA itself ‘rich history of the GAA, its members and the contribution made by the Association to the social, political and cultural life of Ireland.’

    http://crokepark.ie/gaa-museum/gaa-archive

    religion?
    http://www.bc.edu/centers/irish/gaahistory/religion-images.html

    politics or culture?
    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/sunday-life-reveals-sports-bodyrsquos-controverisal-memorials-to-dead-ira-members-in-ulster-14521633.html

    parades?
    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/gaa_event_sickening_1_1887399

  • Sam Maguire

    “But it is harder to imagine a repeat of what happened at St Johns GAC, Leitrim (Co Down) – when it was attacked a few years back and the local Orange turned up the following day to help clear up the mess – in Tyrone.”

    Bit of sweeping statement there Mick – care to elaborate as to why you think that wouldn’t happen in Tyrone?

  • JR

    You really do have a bee in your bonnet about the GAA BTB. The fact that four of the nearly 2500 clubs in Ireland have named their field after an IRA member says more about the community who named the field than the GAA as an organization.

    There are over 10,000 separate competitions held every year within the GAA and there are only 5 referenced here which are named after IRA members at least one of which is no longer played. Are you going to be taking the Soccer match played in memory of Bobby sands up with the IFA?

    In 90% of villages throughout Ireland the GAA pitch is the only available open space available to the public so if a community decides to hold a commemorative event it is natural that it would end up on the GAA pitch.

    The fact that the GAA is structured so that all the power lies with the local communities is a major advantage but in this instance has it’s drawbacks.

  • Mick Fealty

    I didn’t say it couldn’t happen Sam. Just that it is harder to imagine in Tyrone. Perhaps I am way off there, and taking for granted places where community relations are better than what’s in the public domain?

  • Brian

    GAA never should have allowed modern era IRA members to receive any honors or commemerations from their organization.

  • between the bridges

    JR…let’s be honest here the GAA is an organization which draws it players/members/supporters almost exclusively (apart from Sam) from one community and yet the other community is expected to have no reservations about the GAA. a 99% CNR social, political, cultural and sporting organization. Yes there may well be some PUL that takes part, but again been honest the number is minute epically in NI. Now if it was a fraction as open and welcoming some on here would have us believe there would be a reasonable number of PUL involved would there not?
    Now on top of that it is expected nay demanded that PUL show respect and support to an organization that doesn’t represent them in anyway. now if you are PUL and you do not show this respect and support you are a bigot, and if you do show this respect and support, don’t look for any return because that’s not a sporting…

  • JR

    BTB,
    I don’t expect you to support the GAA in any way. I don’t expect you to respect it either but it would be nicer if you did and that is the only reason I engage with you on the issue. The marching culture (Loyalist or Republican) will never represent me but I challenge myself to respect it because I see the benefits to society in general of having a musical diversion for young people in working class areas.

    There are many within the immigrant community who are totally unaware of any cultural or political dimension of the GAA and yet are able to enjoy all of it’s benefits. Many of the Louth underage players are of Nigerian origin and the best player in the country in the mid 90’s was of Asian origin.

    People have every right to criticize the GAA but when that criticism becomes obstinate intolerance or when someone shows nothing only animosity and prejudice towards what is internationally recognized and admired organization then that becomes bigotry.

  • Sam Maguire

    Jim Wells has been equally as outspoken regarding the GAA as Ian McCrea – are community relations really that much better in Castlewellan or Leitrim as they are in Cookstown? Maybe I’m underestimating the depth of feeling but I’d like to think that if there was a similar incident in my community I’d be made as welcome by the OO as I’d be fairly certainly they’d get plenty of appreciation from my club if the roles were reversed.

    btb – Who asked for support? What Ian McCrea was chastised about was that he was reveling in the fact his local team got beat in a game he has no interest in. That’s probably the worst type of schadenfreude. It would be a different story if, for example, Coagh United Reserves had beat Coalisland Athletic in the Mid Ulster League final and he was gloating. This was solely about soliciting a sectarian row.

  • Nunoftheabove

    JR

    What does it matter whether BTB or anyone else respects it or not ? He’s stated that PULs are “entitled to have reservations about” the GAA because its membership is predominantly catholic/nationalist/republican. That statement should stand for itself, I think. No further clarification of his position is required, no embellishment needed.

    Unless he advises otherwise, it’s simply sufficient to agree and have him confirm that its existence and/or activities are causing him no personal inconvenience, unnecessary or intolerable expense, humiliation, embarrassment, annoyance or physical harm of any kind. If he’s remotely curious about what the GAA does, why it does it or how it does it presumably he has a couple of legs, some ears and a mouth with which to find out and presumably some form of mind with which to process that information in whichever fashion he chooses. There is ample information out there. If he’s content to mire himself in naked prejudice without bothering to check his facts out on the other hand then hey, let him knock himself out so long as he does it reasonably. If he wants to join the GAA, that’s fine. If he doesn’t, that’s fine too. His life can be as full and enriched or as empty and impoverished or free and easy or bitter and twisted as he chooses it to be, he’s entitled to that. Tolerate his way of life and he may or may not be more inclined to tolerate yours, either way nobody much cares. He’s not entitled to your respect for his beliefs or his way of life and you aren’t entitled to his for yours. It’s sufficient that there is some agreement on tolerating each’s right to have their own opinions.

  • between the bridges

    ‘People have every right to criticize the GAA but when that criticism becomes obstinate intolerance or when someone shows nothing only animosity and prejudice towards what is internationally recognized and admired organization then that becomes bigotry’…..indeed Jr indeed would an organization with branches in Rep, UK, Canada, USA, Australia, and NW fit into that category too?

  • Devil Eire

    Mick Fealty:

    >>>It was weak of McC to hint at grievance but not articulate it.

    I think that statement would make a far better basis for discussion than the original false dichotomy you presented (if you will accept a constructive criticism).

    You appear not to believe Mr. McCrea’s cost-saving explanation for the tweet, instead interpreting it as a hint of a (perhaps quite legitimate) grievance. Perhaps Mr. McCrea could be invited to submit a blog to Slugger on the matter?

    While we wait, do you think are there any legitimate reasons that the GAA celebrations should not have been held in Tyrone (had they won). Should such celebrations be held differently, or more ‘sensitively’ in future?

    >>>That and a few heads are overdue a good cracking.

    Agreed.

  • between the bridges

    Nun..presumably some form of mind with which to process that information in whichever fashion he chooses… ah your too kind!!
    as for facts check a few posts back, facts and questions no one wants to answer…

  • Nunoftheabove

    between the bridges

    Im (sic) kind enough I suppose, aye. Decent of you to say so. Apologies for discussing you as if you weren’t, so to speak, in the room.

    I’m not a GAA man myself . I ‘get it’, I’m just not involved in/with it (other interests, mainly). I can see why most unionists and/or loyalists aren’t or won’t be any time soon, if ever) – no difficulty with why they won’t, slight difficulties with some of the misconceptions and extrapolations some of them make about it though. If you want particular facts – that are semi-interesting and relevant – checked then I am happy to help as best I can if it helps although as I say I’m not necessarily the go-to guy on the finer details of this. If you’re only interested in airing pre-existing prejudices then I ain’t wasting my time on it however if enlightenment’s what you’re after and some search for objectivity at all hazards and at all costs – to you, to them, whatever – then I’m at least partially ears. Commitment to the truth’s important where I come from. Nice to be nice too sir.

  • between the bridges

    nun nice idea but then we would ALL have to give informed opinions rather than opinions and where would the fun be in that….

  • Nunoftheabove,

    With all due respect your hounding of me for expressing an opinion is unbelievable, what ever happened to play the ball not the man?

    You took my post and tried to change it out of all proportion to suit your narrative, you have already said you don’t believe most unionists when they say the same as me or at best that they are exaggerating. So what is the point in talking with you? Your mind is made up and you won’t listen to anyone unionist or nationalist who says that the media is being kept from publishing things that may be detrimental to the peace process.

    I did not realise that for posting a comment I would need to give some randomer with a grudge every last detail on everything that has ever happened since 1998 which hasn’t been reported in the media, nor for that matter did I realise that every time I use the word “media” I have to specify every single newspaper, magazine, website and tv broadcast specifically lest you try and twist what I am saying.

    I understand that up in that Ivory tower it can be easy to forget that your just like everybody else but alas you are. If your going to just keep hounding me then I’d rather go elsewhere.

  • Nunoftheabove

    youngpolitico

    The ball here is your claim about the media, I make no apology for chasing it and kicking it as hard as I like when I’ve won it. Your bother is you know there’s been no contact and you’re claiming a foul off the ref so play the game, son. If you genuinely can’t quite tell the difference – and that feels like it might well be a possibility – then you can have as much of my sympathy as you can cope with.

    You have made quite a significant claim and have produced no persuasive evidence – not yet, anyway – in support of it or even produced a theory as to why it is even if you were able to prove that it was so.

    I will be honest, I have an aversion to people making very wide-ranging pseudo-conspiracy comments without any evidence to back them up. All must be doubted and all must be subjected to dialctic rationalisation, thus I challenge them quite a lot. It’s called free exchange mate. If you want to regard that as me twisting what you say and hounding you (why would I care to even if minded to ? And why would I be minded to ?) then yeah, you probably are in the wrong place, aye.

    I’ll continue to believe it’s an exaggeration – if not an outright untruth – until you or someone else peddling the same notion can meaningfully back it up.

    The only agenda I have here is highlighting bullshit. That’s my ‘narrative’. Do behave as adults ought to and stop personalizing that. I don’t know you nor you me. All we know here is what we say. This one whiffs a bit but I’m very open to considering substantial evidence and any theory you have as to why you think that is the case and why it is. Thus far, you’ve delivered nothing worth considering by any sensible criteria. Feel free to take that as personally as you please, I feel certain you will in any case.

    If you don’t mean the whole media then don’t use that phrase – be specific. It’s not just more honest, it’s good faith in argument.

    No idea what ivory tower you’re referring to but I must say wherever I am feels like it’s a whole bunch less self-pitying and neurotic than the space you’re occupying sounds like it might be. Poor poor you 🙁

  • Nunoftheabove

    BTB

    Somehow, not a single aspect of that response comes as any kind of a surprise, the absence of surprise in itself no kind of surprise.

  • between the bridges

    nun…be fair it was hardly a gracious offer on your behalf, so no surprise that it got the reply it merited.

  • Nunoftheabove

    BTB

    What was ungracious about it ? Still on for the co-fact-finding but I have a feeling you’ve just confirmed that I’d be wasting my time. Up to you to confirm otherwise though, Your Grace.

  • But you have won nothing, you are deliberately ignoring anything provided that is contrary to your own biased view. You are needlessly rude and I do not understand why you take such a pride in being so. Do you really need to curse to get you point across?

    I have no wish to argue with anyone and will not be drawn into one with you regardless of your attitude towards attacks on homes in mid ulster.

  • Nunoftheabove

    youngpolitico

    Yes I’m probably inclined to agree with you that you don’t understand. You can’t even articulate what it is I am being biased about. You have literally no idea about my attitude about alleged attacks on homes in mid-ulster; you’ve not asked me and I’ve not told you. That’s not relevant to what I’m asking you about and your minor conspiracy notion.

    I sense you’re backing off now and you’ve given this one the (very) best you have. It wasn’t much while it lasted in all candour so I shall consider that an effective concession on your part, boychick.

    Next time – bit of advice: “Events, my dear boy, events”.

  • Nun of the above I have told you of the homes that have been attacked in recent months in Leckagh, Westland Park, Tobermore, Upperlands and Maghera – including my own home and the home of the District Master of the Orange Institution in the Magherafelt area as well as the attacks on the orange halls in Eden, Bellaghy, Aughnagaskin all in recent months. I have given you the lodges involved, even in some cases the former occupation of one of the residents and even one of the residents roles within the Orange Institution… yet the local media never reported on any of the incidents. Bomb Scares etc have also gone unreported and as I told you earlier a FOI request would get you the information you wish. However it would seem rather than have to actually do something you expect me to prove you wrong. You seem ot expect me to publish names of private individuals online just to satisfy you need for on upmanship.

    The reason I have no wish to argue is because you descend to using profanity and personal attacks. Just because I do not wish to be subject to a tirade which has nothing to do with the original topic but rather something that wasn’t actually there that you read into a comment doesn’t mean you can make remarks about my sexuality like calling me a “boychick”

    The problem here is that you are fighting an enemy that doesn’t exist. You are claiming a victory when no battle (not even a war of words) is being fought. You are simply namecalling and launching personal attacks against someone who isn’t fighting back but rather asking you to stop and move on.

    Bit of advice:
    “be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you.”

  • Nunoftheabove

    youngpolitico

    I have no idea what a FOI request would prove and I’m fairly sure you don’t know either; more to the point, if these things actually happened why aren’t you pursuing it with the local media and/or raising it with public representatives ? Still don’t see anything like a conspiracy of the type which was alluded to by you originally.

    Boychick’s a jewish terms of endearment for a young man/boy or a favoured son, leastways it is where I come from. I have a feeling you may either be confusing it with something substantially different or it may represent something known to you that’s not known to me, possibly from the world of adult entertainment. If the latter, hats off for being so au courant; wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been out-perved by a bible-believing Christian 😉

  • youngpolitico,

    It is refreshing to hear the world outlook from a young man such as yourself even though I am an atheist and don’t accept religious beliefs. I do, however, defend the rights of others to hold religious views.
    Take Drumlin’s advice to heart about not needing to answer every point, especially denigrating ones.
    Please keep posting. We need all viewpoints to keep Slugger interesting.

  • Mick Fealty

    Nun,

    It *might* prove you’ve been acting in pretty poor faith.

  • bumper14

    galloglaigh.Where is your proof that the UDR colluded with Loyalists? Catholics served in the UDR and were murdered by the IRA so how was it a sectarian regiment?
    What are your views on the massive state collusion between the Republic and the IRA/INLA, the Smithwicks tribunal only being the tip of the iceberg?

  • galloglaigh

    Bumper14, I provided you with two links, which have been researched by the University of Ulster. One deals with “Subversion in the UDR”, and one deals with “State sponsored violence/Shoot to kill and collusion”. Now research is research, and this project by the University of Ulster is respected all over the world.

    I suggest you try and take some time to read the research provided by myself. I also suggest you do some searching yourself, to provide evidence for your claim of “massive state collusion between the Republic and the IRA/INLA”. No matter how many times I hear these claims, I see no evidence provided to back up such claims. You may prove me wrong, but somehow I doubt it very much.

    As far as I am aware, the Smithwick (not Smithwicks) Tribunal has yet to publish it’s report. I’m guessing that you are a member of the inquiry team, as you seem to have inside knowledge of the outcome of the final report.

    Now do yourself a favour, and do some searching for said research/evidence. Otherwise your claim is simply that – a claim, with nothing viable to back it up.

    P.S. I’m still awaiting your evidence that the GAA burnt McCrea’s car. I feel you cannot produce said evidence, giving your claim an ‘F’ for failure!

    Brian: 2:47 pm

    “GAA never should have allowed modern era IRA members to receive any honors or commemerations from their organization”

    Nor should modern era (nor any era) UVF be honoured by the Orange Order – should they now?

  • Nunoftheabove

    Mick

    What would ?

  • Mick Fealty

    Nun,

    An FOI request. BTW, yp, it might be a good idea to put one in.

    You’ve been telling youngpolitico that the things he’s been saying cannot be true because it’s not in the media. Lagan, bubble, yesterday.

    Whilst you are perfectly entitled to be sceptical you also have not demonstrated any practical grounds for asserting that he’s wrong.

    All of which conflicts rather dramatically with those great quotes in your profile. If this is how new commenters are treated, I don’t blame people for not joining the fray.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Mick

    “You’ve been telling youngpolitico that the things he’s been saying cannot be true because it’s not in the media. Lagan, bubble, yesterday.”

    It reads to me like he’s saying youngpolitico hasn’t provided any evidence to back up his assertion. Furthermore, it seems to me that youngpolitico is the one using the absence of media coverage to suggest there is some sort of conspiracy of silence about all this.

    I hate to use the term ‘conspiracy theorist,’ but it is a hallmark of conspiracy theorists to regard absence of evidence as itself evidence of the overarching nature of the conspiracy in which they believe.

    “…you also have not demonstrated any practical grounds for asserting that he’s wrong.”

    He has pointed out that no evidence has been provided to support the assertion.

    You were guilty of a similar logical fallacy on one of the recent Mary McArdle threads: you seem to think that if a person makes an assertion, even if backed with not a shred of evidence, there is a responsibility on everyone else to prove the opposite of the assertion. This is not the case.

    There is a responsibility on the part of the person making the assertion to provide at least some evidence to support that assertion. There is no responsibility on the part of those hearing the assertion to positively prove the opposite.

    This really isn’t rocket science. Any half decent GCSE-level teacher can be expected to drum this into his students, and an average fourteen-year-old can be expected to grasp the concept that evidence should be provided when making an argument.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    I should add that the above is my take on where each of the posters is coming from, not on the substance of the debate itself.

    I hope the above post doesn’t seem too critical of youngpolitico (though, on reflection, I fear it does). In fairness, he has attempted to point out instances of low-level intimidation, though the absence of corroborating evidence is a drawback.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    youngpolitico

    I hope you don’t mind my intruding on your debate, but I think the substance of your exchange with Nun centres on this:

    ‘…you won’t listen to anyone unionist or nationalist who says that the media is being kept from publishing things that may be detrimental to the peace process.’

    I just wondered, who do you think is keeping the media from doing so.

    (I should add that, in a roundabout way, I actually think you are correct here, though perhaps not in the way you think you are.)

  • between the bridges

    nun…’What was ungracious about it ? Still on for the co-fact-finding but I have a feeling you’ve just confirmed that I’d be wasting my time. Up to you to confirm otherwise though, Your Grace’.

    ah should i confirm what you feel you already know or should i confirm what you have already decided? it is indeed a wise man who knows the answer to his own question but wiser still is the one who knows it all….

    ‘My advice to you is get married: if you find a good wife you’ll be happy; if not, you’ll become a philosopher.” – Socrates

  • Nunoftheabove

    Mick

    I’ve been telling youngpolitico no such thing. I actually don’t have a strong view on whether they happened or not, I’m sorry if I gave the impression that I didn’t necessarily believe him on that. I have no reason to doubt him and no particular reason for believing him; that’s not primarily what I was/am interested in. I’m more interested in whether he can back up his notion that these things are deliberately going unreported (on, if he’s to be believed, an impressive scale) and are unreported for expressly political reasons i.e that they don’t sit comfortably within the narrative of the peace process.

    The reason for this is simply that it echoes something that I think I’ve noticed we’re hearing more from loyalist quarters more often and with more conviction (media bias, paranoia, self-pity etc) of late and it hasn’t gone particularly well challenged so far that I’ve heard in the more popular media. This might indicate that those who believe it are believing it more and that its gaining traction. If the proposition’s true, it’s of course serious. But big claims demand sizeable evidence. If it’s not true and gaining traction despite its essential untruth then it’s potentially dangerous and therefore can and should be countered with reference to the facts. That’s all I’m trying to tease out of youngpolitico.

  • Nunoftheabove

    BTB

    No good faith gesture goes unpunished, I fear. Pity. You create the impression of being much more comfortable throwing stones than you are at building and/or repairing greenhouses so I shall leave you to it mon brave. Incidentally I think you’ll find that unless or until you develop the capability to distinguish facts from feelings, married life will be even more tortuous for you than it may already be.

    “A friend to all is a friend to Nun” ~ Socrates

  • between the bridges

    Ah nun… you would be correct in your assumptions, but only if you 9the not to go to guy)are the font of all knowledge? As for the stones it’s the trajectory that is important, as the great man (Sócrates Brasileiro Sampaio de Souza Vieira de Oliveira) himself said “That Brazilian team represented fantasy, idealism, an idyll. Italy represented efficiency, effectiveness. But at least we lost fighting for our ideals. And you can compare that to society today. We have lost touch with humanity, people are driven by results. They used to go to football to see a spectacle. Now, with very few exceptions, they go to watch a war and what matters is who wins. For me beauty comes first, victory is secondary and what really matters is joy!”

  • Nunoftheabove

    BeeTeeBee

    I tend to take the traditional method of assimilating new knowledge through experiencing, reading, arguing and debating. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis kid. The joy is in the learning for perhaps a small number of us, not just rehashing lame old prejudices with closed ears and eyes – that’s more flat than a puncture, man.

    You’d be as well holding that thought for, like, literally ever.

  • between the bridges

    nunsabove… good one, the irony made me laugh.:) I can’t but help pointing out that self praise is no praise… now back to the ball… the moral of the topic is woe betide anyone who criticizes the glorious game…

  • galloglaigh

    BTB, it has nothing to do with the GAA or the glorious game. If you can point us all to some evidence that the GAA, or people who are ‘defending the glorious game’ attacked McCrea’s car, it would give your argument some credence. Who’s to say it wasn’t the UVF who burnt McCrea’s car, to heighten tension in the run up to BigotFest?

    Evidence?

  • between the bridges

    GG. if you read back you find that i have stated it was unfortunate coincidence….

    When you live your life with an appreciation of coincidences and their meanings, you connect with the underlying field of infinite possibilities.
    Deepak Chopra

  • galloglaigh

    Well I’m glad you have climbed down from your high horse, and have now accepted that anyone could have burnt McCrea’s car.

    Deepak Chopra Mo carra!

  • All I said was that I wondered if Ian McCrea hadn’t been a politician would the attack on his car have gotten the same media coverage?

    I then highlighted intimidation of ordinary people from both sides of the community which so far have not got any media attention. Nunoftheabove then started calling me a conspiracy theorist and dragged my comment into an alleyway to suit his own needs. Why should I have to defend a position which I neither originally commented on or wanted to comment on?

    I thought the thread was about Ian McCrea’s car being destroyed and the regressive game of tit for tat that exists… had I realised I was going to be judged by what I “didn’t say” then I wouldn’t have posted.

    My main and original point was said two days ago on 4th July 2011
    “It is not as though Ian McCrea is the first unionist to have their home or property come under attack in recent weeks and months in the Magherafelt area.To be honest I wonder if Ian wasn’t an MLA would it even have made the news at all? Or would it just have vanished into the forgotten past like happens to everyone else?” – I still stand by that question. I don’t think it was purporting a conspiracy theory, nor “bullsh**”. It was an honest question and one that most of when acting impartially know the answer to.

    The problem on slugger (no offence to anyone) is that far too many people are only interested in dragging things down dark alleyways so they get one up. There are topics detailing matters that affect all of us and yet in truth every topic might as well be called “Anti-Orange” and “Anti-Republican” where each side can just go into their respective thread and post bile about the other’s sports, culture and religion for an hour or two.

  • Billy Pilgrim of course I don’t mind, I just do not understand how I can provide evidence when the names of the orange halls that have been attacked have been given (anyone can go for a drive down and see them for themselves or contact the orange lodge), the estates in which the attacks have happened (again anyone can go for a drive around the estates and see the damage), the villages in which the attacks have happened (anyone can go to them and ask to see the houses), the office one of the men holds within the Orange Order (there is only one district master per district), the former security role of one of the men involved and the village he lives in etc.

    As for the pipebombs go to Meetinghouse Avenue in Maghera and ask them about the disruption in the town due to bomb alerts, go to Tobermore and ask about the leaving of pipe bombs by loyalists who wanted to drive a Chemist from Draperstown from the area, or alternatively send an FOI request to the police who will have investigated all of the incidents (and probably more) that I have mentioned.

    Bar putting on a minibus and driving you all around the areas and applying for an FOI request that I can hand out at the end I do not know what it is I am to do to actually prove to you all that things have happened yet the local media has not reported. All I am saying is that things have happened here (MidUlster) that are kept out of the local press… a local politician spending Ulster Scots fund improperly and being investigated, another Councillor having an affair for a number of years and more… none of which have appeared in local press. I don’t know why, but nor do I know why I am expected to know that.

  • Nunoftheabove

    youngpolitico

    You’d expect a response to that.

    “It is widely believed that there is a blanket ban on reporting most things that are contrary to the current political narrative”.

    You used the expression “was kept off the news” three (that’s three) times in the one post in relation to incidents that you seem to be aware of.

    I’ll repeat my main issues with what’s been said for you if you like:

    # Widely believed by who ?

    # You clearly do not attribute these media omissions to coincidence (which points to some form of possible conspiracy already) – to whom and/or what DO you attribute them ? Rationale ? Motive ?

    # Do you have any tabgible evidence of any kind that there is any form of either censorship or self-censorship by local and/or regional and/or national news outlets in relation to this failure to report the incidents you refer to ? Surely it wouldn’t be that difficult to find out if you were that interested in it ?

    I didn’t drag your comments into any alleyway young man, you’re screaming out loud from one end of a dark – perhaps blind – alley. I’m the one with the torch in this exchange.

  • Widely believed by whom?
    Even you say there is a growing belief within Unionism and I have seen nationalists saying the same. True it usually at the more extreme ends of the political spectrum but it is starting to come into the more mainstream. It is widely believed by those in Loyalist circles (as any trip to a rangers forum would have showed you), in Orange circles (as a quick glance a couple of orange standards would have told you) and I am led to believe it is also held with in republican circles particularly amongst those opposed to Sinn Fein.

    To whom and/or what do you attribute them? rationale? motive?
    I attribute most to a fear of reprisal from loyalist/ republican groups who do not like some going to the press. I attribute others to the growing belief that the police does nothign and so it is better simply not to go near them and I attribute others to press fears of legal action or even media fears that they will be called biased.

    Ammm… I’m not that interested in it. It is you who keeps going on about it demanding evidence of the dealings of senior press and media personnel from a 21 year old who expressed an opinion – an opinion that had nothing to do with media conspiracy but well since you heard some loyalists talking about media bias you thought you would use me as a whipping boy because of something I didn’t say in my original post.

    Torch? It looks more like a baseball bat.

  • Nunoftheabove

    youngpolitico

    Oh well if only you’d mentioned the Rangers fora and orange standards earlier I’d have cleared off happy that we’d put this one to bed 😉

    Like most discerning news-watchers, one tends to monitor a range of ‘Bears sites in order to sate one’s appetite for cutting edge current affairs coverage. No better stop for one’s research on the affairs of state than the oul’ orange standards too – sure it’s all there. All the bluenose news that’s fit to print.

    So you’re just another one reporting what other people are saying and not having any actual proof either. Commoner and commoner, sadly. Until anyone weighs in with some facts here this kind of thing is just paranoid and in some chain mail as far as I’m concerned, at least some of it (and I’ll excuse you here, note) with sinister demagogic motivations behind it. The fear of going to the press argument doesn’t wash really unless again you have any actual examples. Pretty tough for the cops to do much if folk don’t bother reporting stuff, wouldn’t you agree ? Now fear of media bias on the part of the media, there you may be onto something. Then again, maybe not. Some of them failed at the short strand very badly on that a couple of weeks ago – completely bottled it. It’s because their impartiality policies and practices are contrary to the principle of journalistic objectivity.

    Don’t put yourself down young man; 21’s a right few furlongs into adulthood. If you want to get ahead in life you’ll need a skin a bit thicker than the one you’re wearing on here so lighten up chap, this is just good kickaround stuff, being held to account for your opinions is good for the, er, soul. Besides, as a theology student you’ll have plenty of that kind of challenge in front of you so best you get used to it now, no ? After all, Christians were warned by the alleged Nazarene himself to expect to be mocked and ridiculed for their beliefs. But sure you knew that already 🙂

  • bumper14

    Galloglaigh, Republican rants about “shoot to kill” will be treated with the contempt they deserve because the IRA scumbags were out on a murder mission when the SAS stopped them dead in their tracks. The university of Ulster report about so called collusion doesn’t prove a jot about Loyalists and the UDR in cahoots, other than to confirm that there were a few bad apples. 99.99% of the UDR behaved impeccably and without favouritism.
    Also if there was so much collusion between security force personnel and Loyalist revenge squads then how come nearly half of the murders carried out by Loyalists resulted in a conviction compared to only about a 25% closure rate for Republican murders? (see Good Friday Agreement).
    Even if you allow for the sanctuary for IRA/INLA murderers provided by the Republic of Ireland, this is still a poor arrest rate by the RUC.Incidentally the so called “Columbia three”, who were visiting their friends in the drug trade ,FARC, are now walking about as free men in the South, even though the Columbian Police want them extradited.