Irish Ship to Gaza sabotaged

The Irish Ship to Gaza campaign have reported sabotage to their vessel, MV Saoirse, which they claim was carried out by Israeli agents. The MV Saoirse was to participate in another Free Gaza flotilla aimed at breaking through the Israeli blockade to bring aid to the Gaza region. Al Jazeera are reporting this as the second incidence of sabotage this year.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is not softening significantly from last year’s line, judging by recent comments reported by Ha’aretz (which also has concerns about the sexual orientation of some participants in the flotilla).

Last year’s flotilla ended when nine of those on board were killed when it was stormed by Israeli commandos in international waters then forced into Israeli ports. This prompted considerable debate (including on here) and a quite public struggle to control how the story played out in the global media.

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  • iluvni

    Was Gordon D’Arcy’s rugby shirt damaged?

  • lamhdearg

    flippant, heros one and all.

  • Reader

    It all seems very strange.
    Firstly, with the damage shown, the failure would not have been life threatening – they were well able to return to port after the bend developed. Time enough to switch off the engine if it had started to get worse. Even if they had ignored the warning signs, there would almost certainly not have been a breach of the hull, and even if there had been the motor boat would have taken a couple of days to sink – in the middle of the flotilla, in summer in the med. The main risk to the crew would have been media overexposure.
    By the way – there should have been sacrifical anodes on both of the prop shafts – have they been removed – by whom? Was the damage under one of the anodes? If the damage is believed to be new, why is it as pitted and contaminated as the rest of the shaft nearby? And where can I see some decent photos of the situation – can Slugger dispatch MP to the spot pronto?

  • I like the way you’re thinking Reader.
    I could do with a bit of Mediterranean sun, well any sun actually.

  • Greenflag

    If the Israeli thugs can kill 9 Turks and phosphor bomb women and children in Gaza why would they bother to sabotage the MV Saoirse . Why not just kill all those on board and be done with it ? I’m sure there are more than enough Israeli apologists on Slugger to cheer at the prospect 🙁

    I can just see Mr Kenny & his coalition being fully supported as they demand economic sanctions against the Israelis by our “Eurozone ‘ colleagues while the USA once again uses it’s veto to support Israeli tyranny in Gaza .:(

    Many of those on board this ‘international ‘ flotilla are American Jews opposed to the Israeli policy of blocking off Gaza from trading with the rest of the world . The people on board this flotilla are from all over the world . It will be interesting to see how the Americans respond to any Israeli assaults on American citizens who are part of this flotilla.

  • Harry Flashman

    Jeepers Creepers, a convoy trying to break through a naval blockade in a warzone to bring supplies to one of the combatants suffers a strange mishap, whodathunkit?

    Try breaking through a Syrian, Lybian or Bahraini military blockade to help rebels in those war zones and minor damage to mechanical devices is probably the least you’d need to be worried about.

    But hey it’s Israel and amid the slaughter that’s going on in the Middle East thugocracies these days it’s always good to remember the real villains.

    Da jooz! Da jooz! The cunning bastards you couldn’t watch ’em.

  • andnowwhat

    The difference between israel and the Arab despots is that israel identifies itself as one of us ie. a western style democracy.

    This is at odds with truths such as it’s refusal to sign up to arms treaties relating to phophrous bombs etc.

    Hopefully in 10 or 20 years people will look back at what israel got away with in the same way people look back at apartheid today.

  • thecat

    From the photos and video its hard to see this as sabotage for a few reasons:
    No sharp edges on the cut marks that you get from grinding or burning gear.
    Barnacles cleared from quite a large section of the shaft.
    The bend in the shaft would have caused absolutely horrendous vibration that even captain Pugwash would have noticed as soon as the prop first turned on leaving harbour.

    I suspect Seaman Stains had spliced the mainbrace repeatedly and run over some steel cable often found submerged in harbours , the lack of barnacles and the rounded profile of the cut mark is a give away. The undamaged prop is of no relevence as wire rope can be dragged in side ways. I have experience of doing this myself.

    Pretty amateur attempt at mud slinging.

  • galloglaigh

    Harry Flashman

    The children of Gazza are hardly rebels. The Flotilla is delivering aid to people who are in a de-facto concentration camp.

    One thing the Zionists have learned from the Nazis, is how to remove your neighbour by ethnic cleansing. The Israeli government is more like the Nazis, than any other government or state. Gadaffi wouldn’t have a look in!

    I hope the rest of the Flotilla get through, and don’t suffer the international piracy and terrorism suffered by others.

    It’s time the world woke up to the actions of the 21st centuries fascists; the Israelis!

  • damon

    This is the best analysis I have seen about the flotilla.

    ”Gaza flotilla: riding on a wave of narcissism.”
    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10656/

    From the article:
    ”Yet beneath the flotilla activists’ aloof assertions that they are helping to end the siege on Gaza, whether by delivering essentials in earlier years or by becoming pen pals with Palestinians this year, in truth their real motivation is a desire to imbue their own lives with a sense of moral purpose.”

    That sounds about right.

  • Brian

    Gaza is no ‘concentration camp’. It is not a concentration camp in that it does not resemble anything like the concentration camps that one immediately thinks of. No one is starving, being worked to death, or beaten (unless it’s by Hamas’s political and religious police).

    Hyperbole helps nothing.

  • iluvni

    I read these agitating tossers want the NI Executive to get involved in calling for Israel to be brought to justice for this act of bending a wee bit of pipe a bit, even though there is nothing to say Israel had anything to do with it whatsoever.

    http://www.freegaza.org/en/home/press-releases/1316-sabotage-of-mv-saoirse-in-turkey-an-act-of-international-terrorism

  • galloglaigh

    Brian, the UN says that the Gazan people don’t starve to death, because they feed 80% of them. The unemployment rate is 40%+. Israel has been blocking economic development. In fact they are restricting any redevelopment by restricting building materials.

    Wiki-Leaks has revealed that since 2008, the Israelis have been keeping the US government informed on their economic destruction in Gaza. They have been deliberately keeping the Gazan economy “on the brink of collapse” while avoiding a humanitarian crisis. This crisis has been avoided due to UN aid. An agency I might add, that Israel attacked with illegal weapons of mass destruction; white phosphorus shells. Apparently they use these illegal weapons of mass destruction, to ‘light up the battle field’.

    Just to point out that, not only are the Gazan people being beaten off their land daily, they are being run over by tanks, and blown up with weapons of mass destruction. Please take 10mins and look at the links. They might shock you.

    You might like to think that Israeli are a ‘nice’ nation. They are no better than the Nazis, and their actions are on the same par as the actions of the Nazis

  • galloglaigh

    My last paragraph should have read:

    You might like to think that Israeli government are a ‘nice’ government. They are no better than the Nazis, and their actions are on the same par as the actions of the Nazis.

  • iluvni

    You last paragraph would have been better left unsaid

  • galloglaigh

    My last paragraph reflects the truth. The evidence speaks for itself.

  • There is at least one similarity between Israel/Palestine and Northern Ireland. That is, it is often difficult to find out what the truth is. Indeed there may well be two “truths” in both cases.

  • andnowwhat

    Just saw on AJ that the Greek government has used commandos to stop the flotilla leaving.

    Apparently the commandos pointed guns at the people onboard..

  • pippakin

    I have heard the Israeli government described as being the victims of abuse who went on to become the abusers, as indeed some abuse victims have. Imo Gaza is indeed nothing more than a concentration camp.

  • andnowwhat

    Hi Pippa.

    I do not think that using such language benefits the people of Gaza.

    I post on the Guardian’s site where hasbra activity is common place and their weapons are hyperbole and turning anti zionism in to anti semitism. I don’t think returning the ball is needed, facts (UN sources etc.) are enough.

    I would love to know who put the weight on the Greeks to stop the flotilla. Was it america or israel?

  • tacapall

    “I read these agitating tossers want the NI Executive to get involved in calling for Israel to be brought to justice for this act of bending a wee bit of pipe a bit, even though there is nothing to say Israel had anything to do with it whatsoever”.

    Why then are the Israeli’s preparing for scenario’s such as this after what happened last time, I guess they just act first and then get the jewish controlled media to spin it as something different later.

  • tacapall

    sorry about the link, Why then are the Israeli’s preparing for scenario’s such as this after what happened last time

    http://www.israelunitycoalition.org/news/?p=6873

  • pippakin

    andnowwhat

    The latest abuse of Gaza began when the Palestinians had the temerity to vote for a party, Hamas, that the Israelis and Americans did not approve of.

    I too would like to know why the Greek government did it but tbh the Greeks are in such dire straits that almost anyone could have pressured them but why do you see such difference between Israel and the US? In this instance surely they are one and the same. Obama will not tighten the screws on Israel until after the US Presidential election, if then and if track record is anything to go by the EU will not do much at all, ever.

  • Yes, pippakin,

    That is a blot on us (the West). We kept calling for democracy in the Middle East and the Palestinians did hold a democratic election and Hamas won. But we still refuse to engage with them. A shame; the problems can only ever be finally resolved through dialogue.
    I do support Israel’s right to defend itself but my sympathies do lie with the Palestinians.

  • Nunoftheabove

    pippakin

    The fact that some Palestinians had the poor judgment to to vote for a party, Hamas, that adopts the overtly racist, warlike protocols of the Edlers of Zion as a central part of its party charter – if not its actual organizing principle – is not the fault of the USA. It doesn’t entitle Hamas to any kind of special privelege; I wouldn’t trust them with a single red cent of my tax dollars thanks and nor should any self-respecting Palestinian or supporter of the Palestinian cause.

    There is no material evidence of any kind that Hamas recognizes any distinction between Zionism and Judaisim. If you want to see Zionism replaced or succeded by anything other than revolting Islamic theocracy you’d want to be opposing Hamas, not propping them or some of their deluded – other straightforwardly opportunist – supporters up.

  • Ah yes. We have to respect the voters. They have made their choice – the bastards.

  • Being “anti-Israel” is the moral luxury of our generation. It’s the bandwagon by which the morally fashionable define themselves with usually very little consideration of the underlying issues.

    If they really wanted to effect change and better the life of those living in Gaza then they wouldn’t be aligning themselves with the sectarian, misogynist, anti-semitic bigots of Hamas but would instead would be looking to push forward the agendas of the brave peace movements operating out of Israel and the wider Jewish diaspora.

    But they don’t. Why? Because rolling in behind the Jews, who are in a much stronger position to influence the people who really matter and can change the present situation (ie Israeli wider society), just ain’t that sexy in the self-preening PR stakes.

  • Nunoftheabove,

    As far as I can tell, Hamas gained the support of the electorate, not because of their anti-Israel stance, but because they set up advice centres, medical clinics, schools etc and did provide good service to the population. SF did something similar with advice centres, helping people to resolve their personal problems while the SDLP only turned up generally at election time.

  • HeinzGuderian

    Dear oh dear oh dear……………………just what is this pathological hatred of all things Jewish ?
    Seriously,I would really like to know ?
    The catholic church and its incumbents have been persecuting the Jews for centuries,and still it continues on Slugger.
    Get a grip chaps……………………..

    Hitler had a democratic mandate Joe…………….didn’t make it right,did it ?

  • No he didn’t Heinz. His party at their height got around 1/3 of the votes. Then, by physically preventing the opposition from access to Parliament, they passed laws giving the dictator absolute power.

  • Heinz,

    BTW I hereby invoke Godwin’s Law. You automatically have lost the argument.

  • pippakin

    Is there anything sexy about the Palestinian situation? I hadn’t noticed that. It seems to me there are two issues

    1) the right of the Palestinians to elect who the hell they want no matter what I or anyone else thinks of them.

    2) the continuing attempted genocide by the Israelis against the Palestinians.

    I don’t like the Islamist fundamentalists anymore than anyone else does, but the Israelis were the ones who murdered the rightful leader of Hamas.

  • andnowwhat

    Pippakin;

    You are right and nothing exemplifies the lack of distinction between america and israel than the rantings of Hillary Clinton.

  • I don’t like the Islamist fundamentalists anymore than anyone else does, but the Israelis were the ones who murdered the rightful leader of Hamas

    The Israeli people or their military?
    The Israeli peace movement or their government?
    Israel has the kind of complex, multi-strand society that we in Northern Ireland can only imagine (or hope for).
    That’s my point, why align yourself with the bigots of Hamas when the prospect of real change are much more realistic through working with Jewish (and Palestinian) secularist peace activists? Not having a go at you, more at the self-appointed human rightists on the flotilla for whom their own self-image is more important than actually doing something that may actually improve life in Gaza?

    And yes, it is a sexy cause.

  • HeinzGuderian

    More than a Two line answer Joe….well done.

    So Adolf’s democratic mandate isn’t legal because you don’t like it ?

    Let me try to explain something to the Israeli/nazis brigade………………6 Million people,that’s SIX MILLION,were murdered by the nazis. How many are there in Gaza…..still alive ?
    For some unknown reason,(and I have been pondering this for many a year)catholics seem to have this pathological hatred of the Jews ? Why ??

    You keep sympathising with the Palestinians Joe……….we will see who loses the argument !! 😉

  • Nunoftheabove

    Pippakin

    There’s a difference between recognising the will of an electorate and doing it any discretionary favours. People not clear on that distinction don’t understand international politics – end of. But I’d urge you to be careful banding around terms such as genocide unles you’re aware of what you’re saying given who it appears you’re supporting.

    JoeCanuck,

    You’re quite right about the efficiency of the Hamas machinery and let’s not be coy about the criminal dimension behind at the very least some of its funding either. The possible basis of comparison you refer to is not entirely inappropriate. We shall see if that manifests itself in more pragmatic politics in time. No clear sign of it so far mind and that’s very much to be regretted for those supportive of the rights of Palestinians but who will refuse to cross the line into ignoring or supporting the – yes – genocidal politics which are, for the moment at least, at its very core. Hamas does not represent at the moment an outlook which will deliver anything other than stultification, poverty, totalitarianism and wickedness to the people at the moment whose votes they pitch for.

    If others can’t see that then I’m afraid they’re just not paying attention and as such, it can be said that they have no real understanding of or serious interest in the plight of Palestinain working people.

  • andnowwhat

    @Heinz

    Who said anything about Jews?

    You are aware that there is a growing movement of Israelis against what is happening in Gaza?

    You are aware that there is a Jewish holocaust survivor on the flotilla?

    You are aware of an organisation called Rabbis Against Zionism?

    You are aware that Noam Chomsky is a Jew and opposes zionism?

  • pippakin

    Nunoftheabove

    I understand the ‘international politics’ of the Israeli Palestinian problem at least as well as you. As for ‘bandying terms such as genocide’ I’m not the first and, unless the Israeli government changes, very much doubt that I will be the last.

  • Heinz’

    You may have missed the sentence where I said I support Israel’s right to defend itself. Hamas’ position where they vow to remove Israel from the map is not only untenable but is wrong. Now that they have reconciled, apparently, with the PLO, they need to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist before major progress can be made. But, Israel has followed some egregious policies and need to make concessions too, especially the internationally illegal construction on Palestian land.

  • lamhdearg

    we, and by we i mean the world, are walking very close to the edge due to what is unraveling in the middle east at the moment, the gaza blockade is an outlet for arab/islamic anger, the arab spring and its outworkings in syria, the palestine statehood issue which is set to come to a head in september, and the s.t.l hariri indictments in Lebanon, all possess within them the fuse and in each case there are some it seems prepared to light it.

  • andnowwhat

    Lamhderd;

    As we speak, Hezbollah are amassed on the border. On the other side, israel have sent soldiers to the area.

    This is coming to a head.

  • Zig70

    I wish I understood the NI Loyalist/Jew thing. Is it down to the 12th tribe of Isreal thing? Is it because the British imposed the Isreal settlement? The whole thing to me is just monumentally more complicanted than the irish question.

  • lamhdearg

    andnowwhat
    where are you getting that, nothing i can see on al-manar alja?, i would be shocked if the resistence blink at this point.

  • andnowwhat

    Zig 70

    That is a part of it. For some (and I emphasise for some) it is part of being on the right wing.

    Not too long ago it included supporting apartheid in South Africa.

    I don’t get adhesion to one view. For example, I’m a leftie but on law and order I’d make Norman Tebbit blush (not a death penalty advocate though, which i think he is).

  • andnowwhat

    Lamhderg;

    Got it from Russia Today.

    Not sure if the story emminates from israel or whatever though. RT plays games on this issue.

    Damn Ruskies

  • andnowwhat

    Should have added, this was reported by RT 2 days ago

  • lamhdearg

    Sayyed Nasrallah to Address STL Indictment Saturday

    Local Editor
    Hezbollah Secretary General Sayyed Hasan Nasrallah is to announce on Saturday the party’s stance on the Special Tribunal for Lebanon (STL) indictment.

    According to a statement released by Hezbollah’s media relations the Secretary General will deliver a live speech on al-Manar Television on Saturday July 2 at 8:30 p.m. (local time).

    Get it straight from the horse’s mouth (but read between the lines)

  • lamhdearg

    zig
    also and a (perceived) shared siege mentality, a feeling that “we” should have gone after the ra, like israel deals with its attackers, and the guns the loyalist received which emanated from the p.l.o via israel and south africa, add that to the fact the ira support the other side, and the Q is why would the average loyalist/unionist have a jew thing.

  • lamhdearg

    not have a jew thing. sorry

  • Cynic2

    Given that the Egyptians have in effect opened the border why is this convoy needed?

  • Reader

    Zig70: I wish I understood the NI Loyalist/Jew thing.
    It’s probably just a bit of common feeling; that our right to exist is constantly being challenged.
    Personally, I reckon both Northern Ireland and Israel will outlast me, which is the important thing…

  • HeinzGuderian

    Still no answer ?

    They they are,salivating at the very thought of Israel having the audacity to defend itself.

    Take a step back. Have a serious look at yourselves,and ffs stop trying to persecute the Jews !!

    Who mentioned Jews ? Ssssh,the catholic church may start another Inquisition……..

  • Reader

    Cynic2: Given that the Egyptians have in effect opened the border why is this convoy needed?
    Political inertia?
    Photo Opportunities?
    Can’t think of anything more useful to do with all of the money raised?
    The supplies were never really the point in the first place?
    Take your pick…

  • Cynic2,

    Given that the convoy organizers know that Israel will intercept and reroute them, i think it is a political statement rather than an aid convoy.
    Incidentally, Israel has said that once the materials are inspected, they will get the aid to Gaza. I wonder if that is true.

  • Brian

    They should do us all a favor and blow themselves up. All of them, both sides.

  • Brian

    Just kidding, obviously.

  • Harry Flashman

    What is this balderdash about the US and Israel not recognising the democratic legitimacy of the Hamas victory in Gaza?

    Who doesn’t recognise it? Certainly not the Israelis who take the Gazan electorate at their word and respect their fully legitimate choice to elect a party that wishes to annihilate Israel. In response Israel, believing the Gazan people mean what they say, treat Gaza as a hostile territory at war with Israel.

    What’s so complicated about that?

    If anyone is insulting the Gazan electorate it’s the peaceniks who blindly pretend that what the Gazans voted for somehow wasn’t what the Gazans voted for.

    The Idiots.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Harry

    Quite correct; Pippakin can’t quite seem to bring him/herself to see what’s absolutely plain to anyone who wants to see it – Hamas’s explicitly genocidal intentions towards Israel and its unwillingness to discern any distinction between Zionism and Judaisim.

    If that’s the mandate that the Galloway groupies wish to embrace, so be it. Let’s just not let them lie about it and lie or euphemize about where the Hamas philosophy will take the people they claim to be sympathetic towards if followed through – a totalitarian, bankrupt, sterile, theocratic, oppressive sharia wasteland.

  • Nunoftheabove,

    Just for info; pippakin is a woman.

  • pippakin

    Guys…

    Its a question of really, really simple arithmetic, even more commonly known as addition and subtraction. What you do is you add up the number of people killed and subtract the number of Israelis from the total, what you have left answers all the questions anyone could possibly ask. If you get bored with that you can move on to adding up the number of people building on land that does not belong to them and subtract all Palestinians from it…

  • Nunoftheabove

    pippakin

    Frivolity and fatuity achieved without strain in one paragraph. Hats off, ma’am.

  • pippakin

    Nunoftheabove

    Honesty too. I must have slept well.

  • Nunoftheabove

    pippakin

    If only you were as honest and clear about the things that you noticeably don’t want to admit or acknowledge about your apparently strong support for Hamas and about the true nature of that organization as you are frivolous and fatuous about the actuarial dimension of the human cost of that conflict. If you could bring yourself to do that, I’d be the first to wish you a decent night’s rest. Assuming that you occasionally go to bed sober, you’ll find though that it’s more commonly achievable on the basis of a clear conscience.

  • pippakin

    Nunoftheabove

    I will answer the rest of your comment but: ‘ Assuming that I occasionally go to bed sober’? I’m not going to allow myself to get annoyed its not worth it.

    Look, I do know there is a movement in Israel that is more moderate and willing to do deals with the Palestinians. The problem is it is nothing like strong enough and there is also a growing movement of Israeli fundamentalists and the Israeli people have consistently voted for right wing governments for years. In the meantime the Palestinians are the ones dying, not the Israelis.

    I don’t support Hamas as much as I support the Palestinians right to elect them. FFS I don”t support SF but I support the peoples right to vote for them! what’s so hard to understand? and don’t come back with the Israel doesn’t have to do this or that, Israel should recognise the legitimately elected government of every country, they can’t say they are willing to talk and at the same time increase their illegal building programs on Palestinian lands and that’s just the start.

  • Nunoftheabove

    pippakin

    Happy to take your clarification on your partial support for Hamas, it shows a commitment to a higher standard of honesty than some of the comrades can be expected to adhere to. I’ll leave it to you to elaborate, if you can bring yourself to, on which aspects of them and their policies and activities you don’t mind much and those which you find distasteful.

    I hope you’ll go a step further and agree with me that it’s fairly unlikely that the secular center-left in Israel will be strongly positioned to enhance their strength and influence while Palestinians continue to vote for a party which quite openly threatens to commit genocide against them, much as any increase in support for the verminous Shas is unlikely to induce Hamas to moderate its policies or for its supporters to insist that it does.

    Israel should of course not get to choose its negotiating counterparts and it is to the shame of the USA in particular that it does not place sanctions on the Israeli state until such times as it does. The only recent occasion when anything approaching a pragmatic and lasting two state solution appeared possible was when the US suspended Israeli loan guarantees. Worth trying again and soon. With a consolidated Hamas however I fear that the Palestinian electorate are helping cement further stasis and that surely must be to the regret of anyone genuinely interested in a solution and to the restoration of Palestinian rights.

  • pippakin

    Nunoftheabove

    I agree with most of your last comment. The US could pull the plug on the Israeli government but they won’t go near it until after the next election at the earliest.

    The centre left in Israel have been knocking about for years. I hope they gain some sort of power but it doesn’t look likely, at least not for some time.

    Rhetoric is not action. All I say is that the action so far does not support the claims that Palestinians Hamas or anyone else is trying to commit genocide. The facts say the boot is on the other foot.

    Btw. I notice you completely ignored the alcohol issue. I’d just like to mention that in addition to a glass of wine I also like expensive chocolates and huge Bouquets of flowers, problem I don’t get enough of any of them.

  • lamhdearg

    On hamas, and their denying Israels right to exist, the zionist controlled Israel by it’s actions, it’s constant war of expansion, denies its’s own right to exist. it mirrors the nazi state in many ways, a example of which can be seen in the sabra and shatila massacre, compare this to the nazi controlled massacre’s in eastern europe, where the nazis let proxies do there killing, and then remind oneself that the zionist’s of israel went on to elect Ariel Sharon prime minister. The nazi war machine over stretched it’s self, made enemies of to many peoples, and fell, israel is doing the same, and as in Germany all it’s people not just the ones that support its actions will suffer.

  • Nunoftheabove

    pippakin

    Yeah I agree that rhetoric is not action however actions congruent with the rhetoric do tend to render the rhetoric with a little authenticity. Besides, it is absolutely plain that this is nor rhetoric or at least not just rhetoric with Hamas – if anything, it’s its organizing principle. Anti-semitism for example is not something one occasionally finds on the margins of its more feverish members and supporters when the blood’s up, it’s right at the very heart of its core principles and philosophy. That is, I’m afraid, simply unarguable. But have a go at it if you care to.

    “Btw. I notice you completely ignored the alcohol issue”; To the contrary. I raised it, you dodged it. I think you’ve confirmed that it isn’t always necessarily the clean conscience that gets you over every night into restfulness. I’m relatively unsurprised but again, thanks for the clarification.

  • pippakin

    Nunoftheabove

    No that won’t do Hamas are not being given the opportunity to talk to the Israeli government. Imo they are bound to sound extreme. The Israeli government is the cause of all the problems the Palestinians have.

    Oh no. I did not raise the subject of alcohol you did. It was an outrageous suggestion, possibly made by someone who had taken a glass too many themselves. I had thought better of you, now? You work it out.

  • Nunoftheabove

    pippakin

    Yes perhaps the alcohol issue is a red herring after all; maybe it’s the absence of reading glasses. I not only raised the alcohol issue – somewhat tongue in cheekily – I stated very clearly that I had done. What I was challenging somewhat sarcastically – feebly so, you might say – was your apparent self-satisfaction about the ability to sleep well despite your apparently enthusiastic support for the philosophy and actions of Hamas. You’ve now stated that you only support them a wee bit so perhaps you can rationalise that without explaining quite which parts you like or don’t like. Good luck with that. But sure why bother even doing so when you can blame Israel and/or the USA for absolutely everything that’s wrong with and about Hamas.

    …..flowers….. and chocolates ?

  • pippakin

    Nunoftheabove

    Are among the many things I enjoy along with a glass of wine, regrettably not only do I not have the constitution for some of them I can’t afford too many of any of them either.

    Its not a question of supporting Hamas a wee bit. I support Hamas because they are the elected government of Palestine, they have a right to be heard and any negotiations regarding Palestine, West Bank or Gaza should be held with them, not the corrupt puppets the US pays for.

    If the Israelis sabotaged the flotilla, again, they should be charged through the international courts. I suppose the good news this time is they managed not to murder anyone.

  • Nunoftheabove

    pippakin

    So we’re back to identifying your support as lying somewhere between supporting them more than a wee bit but less than completely. I’m acually fairly curious as to whether you share any of the same reservations about them as I do. If you do, you’ve not taken any steps to acknowledge them. I must say though that your implication that they’re only adopting a extremist posture by way of some sort of negotiating tactic is as inaccurate as it is venturesome. Not terribly successful so far either, is it ? Do you honestly believe for a moment that Hamas, if successful in negotiation, will uphold reasonable democratic standards and adopt and apply a rights-based approach to its electorate (and others) in an ostensibly more free state going forward and that they’ll jettison their theocratic philosphy ? That’s quite a gamble. You’d need to be suspending a great many of your critical faculties to accept any such notion at face value.

  • Cynic2

    ” …………it is a political statement rather than an aid convoy.”

    So this is political posturing by zealots who want to provoke a confrontation for their 5 minutes of fame. Just who is funding this bunch? That’s usually a telling question. And where does the money actually go? Often that’s even more telling

  • andnowwhat

    @ Pippakin

    Check out here….

    http://twitter.com/#!/search/flotilla%23

    Seems that israel has been giving Greece a little help with their woes

  • pippakin

    andnowwhat

    Its all intrigue and conspiracy. The Greeks probably are indebted to Israel after all they owe everyone else.

  • andnowwhat

    Exactly Pippa.

    If you check you will see evidence of the much doubted damage to the Irish boat.

    Seems that their engineer is a Shinner.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Israeli Greek collaboration is, in the overall scheme, a welcome departure from the previous cordiality which existed between the Israeli state and the wicked faction within Turkish politics – filthy business partners altogether.

    Cyncis2 – quite right; Hamas have quite a track record on dispbursing humanitarian aid and a shadowy one on raising funds generally. Indeed, they have a track record of raiding and looting the offices of recognized NGOs and other reputable humanitarian aid organziations on their own doorstep and/or overlooking the participation in these and similar events by their members and supporters.

  • pauluk

    In order to avoid a violent confrontation with the Hamas-organised flotilla the Israelis have been employing some very creative and ingenious tactics.

    Israel just wants to live in peace with its neighbours, but, unfortunately, its neighbours, supported by gullible and naive bleeding-heart western liberals, only want to obliterate Israel.

    Congratulations to Israel for their strenuous efforts to avoid more unnecessary injuries and deaths.

  • lamhdearg

    From aljazeera

    Speaking on Saturday in a telelvised speech, Nasrallah ( leader of hezbollah) said that computers related to the case investigated by the STL were transported through Israel on their way out of Lebanon and asked why they had not been shipped out of a Beirut port?

    He said Hezbollah would produce a document that proving the computers were transported from South Lebanon to Israel.

    Speaking from Beirut, Jamal Wakim of the Lebanese International University told Al Jazeera that the charges over computer data were “the most important point” in the speech.

    He said: “It proves the implication of Israel in trying to divert and manipulate the international court.”
    Also the bbc is wrong in stating that the men have not been named, other press are running with the names.

  • HeinzGuderian

    http://www.slate.com/id/2298332/

    Christopher Hitchens take on this farcical flotilla !!

  • “… reported by Ha’aretz (which also has concerns about the sexual orientation of some participants in the flotilla).”

    That’s an interesting slant on that article. I read that as reportage, not opinion.

  • lamhdearg

    we (slugger) should have a thread about todays events between Egypt (Gaza, Really)and Israel.

  • lamhdearg

    sorry, (Gaza really?)or (Gaza really!). what i am trying to get at is, i dont think the attack necessarily came from Gaza.

  • lamhdearg

    ah come on, are we going to spend all weekend, talking about ourselves.

  • lamhdearg

    from bbc world news,
    On Friday, Egypt filed a formal complaint to Israel over the deaths of five of its policemen close to the border. Three were killed by gunfire on Thursday and two died of their wounds on Friday, said officials.
    “Egypt has demanded an urgent probe into the circumstances of the deaths and injuries of Egyptian forces’ members inside our borders,” the Mena news agency quoted a military official as saying.
    From the Telegraph online
    As Israeli jets bombed Gaza, Egypt was also drawn into the conflict. Cairo lodged a protest against the deaths of at least three policemen and two other Egyptians caught in the crossfire as Israeli troops pursued the attackers in Thursday’s raid across the border between the two states.
    The Egyptian chief of staff, Gen Sami Enan, headed to the Sinai to investigate personally.

  • lamhdearg

    Jerusalem (CNN) — In a move that could portend an increase in violence between Israelis and Palestinians, the Hamas military wing announced it was ending a de facto two-year truce with Israel early Saturday
    “We call for groups to join in calling against the crimes of the Israeli occupation,” the statement continued
    One Israeli strike targeted a motorcycle early Saturday morning in Gaza City, killing three, according to Palestinian medical and security sources. Among the dead was a 5-year-old boy, they said.

  • John Ó Néill

    I think this is the most intense (if not the first real) Egyptian-Israeli crisis of the post-Mubarak era (the Egyptian Ambassador has been withdrawn from Israel). Israel might want to carefully monitor popular sentiment in Cairo – I’m not sure how predictable post-Mubarak policy towards Gaza etc might be.

  • lamhdearg

    From aljazeera, today.
    A report came out in the Egyptian media outlet, Al Masry Alyoum, on Wednesday stating that Egyptian authorities have identified three of the people responsible for the attacks on the the Israeli bus last Thursday as being FROM EGYPT.

  • lamhdearg

    all from bbc news
    “10 September 2011 Last updated at 00:50
    Egyptian protesters break into Israeli embassy building

    8 September 2011 Last updated at 22:17
    Turkey ‘to escort Gaza aid ships’ amid row with Israel

    Increased attacks
    There has been sharp rise in violence involving settlers in 2011, the UN says.
    In 2011 alone, there have been more than 250 incidents in which Palestinians have been injured or had their property damaged.

    Tensions have been running high two weeks ahead of a planned appeal by the Palestinian leadership to the United Nations, calling for the acceptance of an independent Palestinian state within its 1967 borders in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.”

    Anyone for war

  • lamhdearg

    450 injured in Egypt, at Israeli embassy storming, Israeli ambassador at Cario airport.

  • lamhdearg

    Great live pic on bbc at moment.

  • pippakin

    Israel is at it again, like they ever stopped, but Egypt is no longer the tame country it was. Very dangerous times we live in.

  • pippakin

    Israel is at it again, like they ever stopped, but Egypt is no longer the tame country it was. Very dangerous times we live in.

    Tony Blair has apparently said that the world is a safer place since 9/11. I’m not sure that man is on the same planet as the rest of us.