Gaddafi to go? But who/what will take his place?

It seems the anti regime fever is spreading to Libya where Moammar Gadhafi has sworn to fight the mob calling for his overthrow to the last. According to the latest Al Jazeera report, the east of the country is already under ‘civilian control’.

In this context it is worth listening to this interview with Clay Shirky on how Twitter and Facebook are playing a role in the current unrest in the Arab world. Towards the end he notes that “we’ve found a better way to take down autocracy, but not a way to replace them”.

There’s more in the latest issue of Foreign Affairs (if you register)..

  • Brian Walker

    What will be the fate of compensation for terrorist victims?

    From Sunday Business Post
    http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/ira-victims-could-benefit-from-475m-libya-fund-54646.html

    Lawyers for Fair have asked the US administration to consider allowing some Irish victims who have since moved or relocated to the US to benefit from the unspent monies.

    The Irish group has separately been promised a £2 billion package on offer from the Colonel Muammar Gaddafi regime, as compensation for the Libyan state’s long-term support for paramilitary activity by the IRA.

    The US was the first administration to come to an agreement with the Gaddafi regime, in 2008, which led to the Libyan regime compensating the US victims of terrorist attacks, including the Lockerbie bombing.

    According to last week’s briefing, the timing of the payment of the £2 billion package is now in the hands of officials in the office of Colonel Gaddafi’s son, Saifal-Islam Gaddafi.

    The British Foreign Office is facilitating the deal, but has said it is not directly involved in negotiations.

  • SDLP supporter

    I sincerely hope that Ghaddafi is overthrown and soon. He is one of the worst of the Arab despots and if anyone deserves to be dangling on the end of a rope it is him.

    Even taking our small part of the world, the damage he inflicted here through his support and arm shipments to the IRA in the seventies and eighties is incalculable. He is a war criminal.

    Isn’t it amazing that our Sinn Fein contributors have nothing to say about the present situation in Libya and the Islamophobic rantings of their old mate, and unequivocal supporter of the “armed struggle”, Congressman Pete King?

  • Isn’t it amazing that our Sinn Fein contributors have nothing to say about the present situation in Libya and the Islamophobic rantings of their old mate, and unequivocal supporter of the “armed struggle”

    Probably because that allegation is rubbish. Ghaddafi was releasing anti-IRA statements in the early 90’s. How do you think the Brits came by the inventory of IRA weapons?

  • SDLP supporter

    Sorry, I meant to add that grafting anything like our western understanding of democracy on the Arab world will be very arduous. It took western societies a millennium, and countless hundreds of thousands dead, to finally get the point widely accepted that it is better to separate church and state. For example, a lot of the concealment of the Catholic church over child abuse was because their thinking as to the respective had not developed since the days of Innocent 11. Being very simplistic, Islam doesn’t appear to recognise the concept of separation.

  • Greenflag

    It’s a little ironic that Ghadaffi seems under political stress as Irish voters head for the polls .

    I’m reminded of the fortunes of a previous Irish government (the Liam Cosgrave (FG/Labour ) one which in the middle of another middle east oil crisis sent out the then ‘Energy ‘ Minister and Tainiste and Labour Party leader Frank McCluskey to negotiate with Ghaddafi re the matter of getting some regular oil supplies at a better price . Frank a plain speaking ex Dublin butcher but a genial and kind hearted soul found himself being driven out into the Libyan desert where he was placed in line with several other foreigners and other arab dignataries to await an audience with the Great Saviour of Araby .

    After a couple of hours waiting McCluskey was finding the heat oppressive and then he took notice that as people in front of him were ushered into the presence of the Great Saviour of Arabdom they would first kneel down at the entrance and prostrate themselves and wail out in Arabic all the honorifics they could in order to meet the requirements for a positive decision from the Great one .

    McCluskey’s knowledge of either Arabic or Islam or local customs was meagre to say the least but being part of a coalition back home he also knew he should’nt offend the Arab leader .

    Before this becomes a shaggy dog story -as McCluskey is given the signal that he’s next in line he finally decides what to do .

    He walks speedily to the tent entrance -kneels down and bends forward several times with arms in a pleading outstretch mumbling not in Arabic in his Liberties true Dub twang .

    ‘Oil for the love of Jayzus -Oil for the love of Jayzus’

    I believe it worked . Could there be a lesson here for our newly minted government next week ?

  • Frame

    Times change as do allies, but Gaddafi was the bestest chum to the IRA previously and they endorsed him despite his maniacal regime.

    Many hundreds of people here must be hoping he pays a high price soon for his arms supplying.

    Perhaps Abdul Baset al-Megrahi will now have a miracle cure and make it back to Scotland to serve out his Lockerbie sentence?

  • Greenflag

    SDLP supporter ,

    ‘It took western societies a millennium, and countless hundreds of thousands dead, to finally get the point widely accepted that it is better to separate church and state.’

    I’d have said millions of deaths . You are correct that it took centuries of struggle before ‘democracy’ was recognised by the church as being a form of government that it could tolerate . The fact that it can’t tolerate it i.e ‘democracy’ in it’s own institution yet is just testimony to the fact that it sometimes prefers not to practice what it preaches :(.

    In today’s world there are 28 million unemployed in the USA , 2.5 million in the UK and millions more around the western world along with millions of home foreclosures etc etc because our present States – separated themselves much more than was necessary from the financial services and banking sectors .

    The struggle now outside the Islamic world is not between church and state except in a few backward areas in the USA and elsewhere but between States and the International Banking system as represented by the IMF/ECB. And just as in the middle and later ages there are those who try to sit on both sides of the fence .

    ‘Being very simplistic, Islam doesn’t appear to recognise the concept of separation.’

    Eh ? They may not understand the concept but they’re on the ball when it comes to separating heads from bodies when it comes to ‘theft ‘. Although whether they apply it in their banking sector I don’t know .

  • Though it is true Ghaddafi fed the Irish sectarians, there is a bigger brew in Bahrain. Al Jazeerah and MI5/BBC are blowing up the Libyan story but ignoring the Bahraini story where Shiites are standing up to Sunni Orange type rule.
    Iran is belting on about Bahrain and urging solidarity for all Shiites.

    In the Islamic world, the Gerry Adams, Martin McGs, Martin Ferrises are waiting, hoping to fuel the total hatred Shiites and Sunnis have of each other. We ain’t seen nothing yet.

  • SDLP supporter

    Ulick

    What planet have you recently arrived from. Of course the British secret service were implicated in getting materiel for loyalists from South Africa and elsewhere. That is not in dispute. Your contribution is a classic case of ‘ yah-booh whatabouttery’.

    Haven’t you heard of the Eksund (1987), seized by the Garda?
    • Six tons of Semtex;
    • 1500-plus AKM rifles;
    • 1.5 million rounds of ammunition;
    • 20 SAM missiles;
    • 50 RPG7 rocket launchers;
    • 10 flame throwers, and;
    • a quantity of general purpose and heavy machine guns.

    For God’s sake trying to curb your juvenile, ill-thought-out knee jerk reactions.

  • SDLP supporter

    Greenflag

    Enjoyed your Frank Cluskey (no ‘Mc’) story. Met him a few times, one of the most witty and sardonic politicians ever.

    One of my favourite stories about him was his comment about Michael D. Higgins TD when the latter was Chair of the Irish Labour Party. The ILP was in one of its periodic crises of disorganisation-a bit like the SDLP-and Michael D. had a clash between either chairing the ILP over a difficult weekend or attending the Earth Summit in Rio Di Janeiro on a freebie. Michael D. opted for the latter and Frank’s comment was:

    “When deciding either to save the world or the Irish Labour Party, Michael D. always takes the easy option’.

  • @SDLP who mention the Brits and South Africa? Instead of going off half-cocked maybe you should go back and read what I posted. The Libyans handed over an inventory of all weapons they supplied to the IRA in the early 90’s – this is on top of what was siezed on the Eksund – hardly the actions of an “old mate”. As early as 1992 Gaddafi was releasing statements condemning the IRA, so I think it’s safe to assume any relationship they had has long since ended. Nice try though…

  • Good point Ulick: MLibya armed the IRA becuase thye were enemies.

    My favourtie story was when Sadat was assassinated in 1981. McCluskey was present (Or another Lab guy).
    Anyway, when the soldiers open up on Sadat, he shouts out: Don’t shoot. dont shoot. McCluskey’s in the third row.

  • SDLP supporter

    Ulick

    Are you a total fool, or just trying to troll this thread off course? Ghadaffi may have handed his inventory over to the Brits in the nineties, and condemned the IRA,.but that doesn’t diminish in any way the pernicious effects of his previous murderous relationships with the Provos as detailed by me in a previous post.

    The guy is a lunatic, is evil beyond description and deserves the very worst that could possibly happen to him. He supplied enough semtex and armaments to keep the IRA going for over a decade when its killing machine was at its zenith.

    Hell won’t be full until Ghadaffi’s arse is sticking out the skylight.

  • Cynic2

    Has he called SF for advice yet?

    In the past they have had quite strong policies on dealing with dissent themselves as people like JoJo found out. I am sure they could offer a few tips to old friends

  • Greenflag

    Sdlp supporter,

    ‘“When deciding either to save the world or the Irish Labour Party, Michael D. always takes the easy option’.

    A classic but who will Labour assuming they get into coalition (not yet a done deal ) send to the ECB to bend the knee ?
    Frank Ross ? a.k.a Proinsias De Rossa MEP ? He should be at least able to find his way through the various ‘tents ‘ ?

    On a more important point re the current slaughter in Libya this is not the first time there has been ‘resistance ‘ to the regime .

    Here’s a link to a history of one of the least known of the Libyan Leaders atrocities committed on his own people as described by a Libyan Professor in the USA

    http://www.democracynow.org/- the slaughter of 1,200 approx prisoners begins at 48 minutes into the clip .

    There’s enough there for Ghadaffi and some of his Minister’s to be hanged or whatever they do in Libya when their ‘elite’ fails to cling on to power .Some reports are suggesting that the Libyan tyrant is enroute to Venezuela although whether he’s accompanied by his blonde Ukrainian bombshell nursing attendants is not clear ?

  • SDLP, I don’t disagree with you regarding Ghadaffi but I fail to see the relevance to the original point you made about SF even though I can see you are trying hard to create some sort of link. Btw – you are the one who tried to pull it off topic with that pathetic attempt at a smear.

  • At least Libya had their leader foisted on them. Some Irish are actually gpoing to vote for his Sinn Fein mates.

  • Greenflag

    hey maskey ,

    Here’s a clip that you’ll enjoy not too much to strain your remaining brain cell –remember now the pope’s a fish and Adams his chips

  • SDLP supporter

    Ulick

    Don’t talk nonsense about a ‘smear’. It may have been on the basis of “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” but Sinn Fein and the Provo IRA were deeply implicated with Ghadaffi and kept company with him and the deeply unsavoury Congressman Peter King. It’s a matter of historic fact and there’s no sense in trying to bluster it away.

  • Greenflag

    maskey,

    ‘Some Irish are actually going to vote for his Sinn Fein mates’

    Some ? About 30% of the population of Northern Ireland .have been voting for Sinn Fein for almost two decades and they expect to get about 12% of the Republic vote in this election . I suspect they may even do better than that .

    I guess you don’t recognise there are at least 800,000 Irish people in Northern Ireland and that most of those who have votes and children continue to support Sinn Fein , And Gerry Adams will probably top the poll in Dundalk . When the next government FG is seen to fail don’t be surprised to see SF becoming the major party of Government in the Republic after the 2016 election . The established parties are running out of ‘fixes ‘ not just in Ireland but throughout the western world .

  • Mark

    I wonder will Brit Govt ask Sinn Fein for any personal intel titbits they may have concerning Libya ..or are they all buried with Brian Keenan .

  • Greenflag: You may well be right, though Northenr nationalists vote for SF for the most parochial of reaosns. It is a pity people vote out new clowns and vote in new clowns. I don’t thjink Sinn Fein have anything to contribute. The dilemma is the people must solve their own problems but the system, of which Sinn Fein is a part, militates against that.

    Forgetting the Sinn Fein psychopaths for a minute: the number may well be up on FF as we knew it. But, given the problems FF are in, their big guns should have stayed and fought. I guess they are part of the Tunisian tsunami. Hopefully SF will follow in time. The problem in the Arab world, even forgetting the sectarian bloodbath that is going to visit them is they have been headed off at the pass, most notably in Egypt. Same in Ireland, same circus different clowns North and South.

  • qwerty12345

    Nice to see a thread not about Ireland once again being quickly turned into a thread all about Ireland.

    On the streets of Benghazi the masses were heard chanting “What will this mean to mid Ulster”

    BTW weren’t the UDA also involved with Qadaffi at one point?

    As for SDLP supporters thought provoking “grafting anything like our western understanding of democracy on the Arab world will be very arduous”. What utter nonsense, racist nonsense actually. Yeah our export of democracy to the Arab world really has been a beacon for mankind.

    Look into all the despots across the middle east and you will find western “democracy” propping up a good number of them against the wishes of ordinary Arab people. I think Arabs “get” democracy just as well as any other group of humans. It doesnt help that their borders and rulers have been drawn and picked for them from outside for decades.

    Britain exported WW2 wind up field telephones to Saudi Arabia in the 1980s in the thousand – as well as nice two foot lengths of rubber hose pipe. Now theres a belief in democracy we can all be proud of.

    Lets hope that the brave Arab democratic sentiment we have seen recently is catching because if we were really honest we’d realise we need it as much as they do.

  • between the bridges

    yep the bold colonel supported all the looney tunes brigade, interesting stuff re the phones!

  • Qwerty:

    1. The British undermined democracy in Saudi Arabia and most notably in Iran.
    2. The Yanks armed Egyptian military thugs who stil lrule.
    3. Libya’s tribes will square up. MI5/BBC and Al Jajeerah are pushing this.
    4. Iran is pushing the Shiite case in Bahrain.
    5. Most oil is in Shiite lands.
    6. Shiites and Sunnis have hated each other since the early days.
    7. Bloodbath.
    8. The Irish, as ever, as interested in what they can beg.
    9. I guess the Copts are in for a rough time too, depending on how things swing.
    10. Oil is not up too much yet.
    11. Hopefully Israel and the USA will pay.
    12. China and Iran will probably get sweeter.

  • qwerty12345

    Al Jazeera reporting jets carrying out air strikes in Tripoli, some jets commanded to bomb Benghazi have flown to Malta refusing to carry out orders.

    Dreadful stuff.

    http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

  • Greenflag

    qwerty12345,

    On the streets of Benghazi the masses were heard chanting “What will this mean to mid Ulster”

    They were ? 😉

    ‘BTW weren’t the UDA also involved with Qadaffi at one point?’

    Ah but that was different 😉 It was like back then when the old UVF were involved with the German Kaiser . But happily his Granny Vicky had passed on by so she could’nt call them ‘traitors’ .

    Thanks btw for the link to Al Jazzera . If the Libyan Air Force is now revolting then Ghadaffi’s a goner . Where can he flee Zimbabwe ?

  • SDLP supporter

    Qwerty

    You misunderstand my point completely. I actually agree with you about the abuse of the Middle East by the western powers. It’s exemplified by the murderous arrogance of overthrow of Mossadeq in Iran in the fifties by the CIA and Sykes-Picot dividing up the former Ottoman Empire lands into British, French, Italian, and Russian spheres of influence.

    Western democracy is an imperfect construct, vitiated by countries like the US, UK and France supporting thugs like Mubarak and Ghadaffi, and slavishly supporting Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians, and then wondering why large numbers of Arab world hate the West.

    My point is that, for all its imperfections, the people who get the most votes nearly always get to run western democracies. The sine qua non of EU membership is that any country that wants to join must be a functioning democracy. It took us in the West hundreds of years to reach our present understaning of “getting” democracy. My simple point is that the Arab world hasn’t gone through anything approaching that experience.

    Democracy as we know it is rarely if ever practised in the Arab world and the same goes for Russia and China. Like Christianity, true democracy has rarely been applied in practice and the US in particular, with its horrible policies, has to say the least, lacked the courage of its democratic convictions.

    I agree with you that Ireland has something to contribute to this debate which is convulsing the world. We have no colonial history, no dubious past, and we should be exemplars of democracy:unfortunately we are not.

    I am not racist, I don’t think we’re superior to anyone, but I do believe the principle of the inviobality of the will of the people. I’ve spent a fair bit of time in the Middle East (have you?) and I do think my views are fairly well informed, but not infallible.

  • 241934 john brennan

    Belfast’s SDLP, Dr. Alasdair McDonnell MP today said:

    “The total silence of Gerry Adams over the deaths and injuries suffered by hundreds of innocent protestors at the hands of Provo benefactor Gaddafi, was a “shameful indictment of a morally bankrupt politician.”

    “This is a man who heads a party, never slow in criticising certain governments on a purely selective basis when it suited them. Now Mr Adams and Sinn Fein seem to be suffering from collective amnesia over the cosy relationship they so cherished, as the friends of Gaddafi.

    “Even at this late stage, and after so many Libyan lives being ruined because of Gaddafi’s gun-rule terror tactics against his own citizens, it is not too late for Mr Adams to use his movement’s long-standing direct links with the Libyan Government for good rather than the previous self-serving evil.

    “Of course it would be embarrassing to confront the man who effectively bankrolled the IRA for decades while the Provos were building up the Sinn Fein electoral machine. But unless Adams is prepared to speak out now, however reluctantly, he will be seen as standing shoulder to shoulder with an individual who uses street slaughter as a lever to protect his grip on power.

    Dr McDonnell said that over the 40 years of Gaddafi’s dictatorship the IRA and other the other wings of militant republicanism had benefitted from having access to Libyan weapons and explosives.

    “The leadership along with many others in the current Sinn Fein hierarchy had direct contacts with the Libyan regime over many years when the Provisional movement was exploiting Gaddafi’s willingness to smuggle the tools of terror into Ireland. Libyan guns and the explosives used to make bombs brought terrible suffering to the people of Ireland and further afield.

    “The Libyan connection in cash and bullets left a trail of destruction across this country. It underpinned the strategy of the Armalite and the Ballot Box that Adams and Co continue to boast about. What we are seeing on the streets of Tripoli and other cities in Libya is a shameful mirror image of the terror tools that the Provos used for decades against the people of Ireland.

    “The real irony in all of this tragedy is that the IRA’s weapons supplier is now using the same murderous tactics designed by the British Army and used on the streets of Ireland during colonial times.”

  • 1. The BBC News, in recapping Gadaffi’s colourful career, said nothing about him funding and arming Gerry’s closest mates.
    2. We all know the type of person Gerry Adams is so need to bring him into this thread.
    3. No need to bring the Irish in either. Ireland is a bankrupt state that has very little to teach the world about anything except corruption.
    4. If Gadaffi does go, it will be interesting to see who will take him in as he wil lbe one hot potato. Let’s hope the vermin princes of Saudi Arabia also get the heat.
    5. I imagine the Yanks and their Israeli proxies wil stir up the sectarian strife.
    6. Let’s hope the evil Israeli state also falls.

  • qwerty12345

    SDLP supporter, after at least thirty years of following politics I’ve come to the conclusion that the imperfect western democracy referenced here isnt actually democracy at all. Sometimes I think it’s little more than different herds of sheep being bid to and fro.

    Forgive my cynicism but If I were an Arab id run a mile from western democracy. Our “democracy” is probably just a slicker well oiled version of despotism – see what I mean:

    http://www.monbiot.com/2011/02/07/a-corporate-coup-detat/

  • qwerty12345

    More insight into the western approach to the middle east, this one should be titled “Turkeys strongly requested to vote for Christmas”

    http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/02/201121815137386765.html#

  • RepublicanStones

    Gore Vidal and George Carlin have (in different ways) highlighted how our notion of western democracy is actually just voting for who gets to be ordered about by the big corporations. Vidal has floated the idea of banning corporate donations to political parties. Until then it won’t be ‘of the people, by the people, for the people’.

    Being republican and condemning Qaddafi are not mutually exclusive, if Grizzly hasn’t when pressed, then its just more proof of what a fucking clampett he is.

  • 241934 john brennan

    Gadaffi was on the verge of agreeing to pay £Xmillions compensation, by way of apology/reparation for supplying boat loads of guns, ammunition, mortars, semtex etc to the Provos, to help them kill and maim their fellow Irish neighbours – provided they also killed a few Brits, by way of revenge against the English for allowing one their RAF airports to be used by Americans, as a base from which to drop a few bombs on one of Gadaffi’s tents.

    If Gadaffi goes AWOL, what’s the betting the promised compensation will also disappear?

  • Gadaffi has sent in the air force. A league of his own:(

  • qwerty12345

    John Brennan wrote “drop a few bombs on one of Gadaffi’s tents”

    Oh, you mean the air strikes that killed 60 human beings including a small child.

  • Cynic2

    If Gerry doesn’t get in in Louth might he try Benghazi?

  • Mark

    He’d need to changes his bodyguards when he gets there in kepping with the cols policy .Maybe he could give Martina Navratalova and Billie Jean King the gig .

  • Greenflag

    So where does the Libyan regime get the arms to kill it’s own people ? Surprisingly or perhaps not from those ‘powers’ who now ‘distance ‘ themselves from the regime having drawn closer in recent years.

    Here courtesy of the BBC is how the USA and UK help ‘dictators ‘ of oppressive regimes maintain power until of course the ‘people ‘ rise up and then of course it’s the usual hand washing ritual ”

    Excerpt from article

    ‘More broadly, Libya is amongst the most repressive countries in the region. Freedom House, a US-based democracy monitoring group, rates its political and civil liberties at the worst possible score, and freedoms of expression, assembly and belief are given short shrift.’

    I guess UK and USA arms exports to Libya were to eh promote ‘democracy?

    ‘US and UK rapprochement with the Libyan leader and his regime brought in some ‘lucrative ‘ business for the world’s biggest armaments producer the USA and the UK has been doing more than little trade with the Libyans .’

    Italy will also be more than a little upset if the Libyan leader is ousted for they too have many interests in the continuing oppression of the Libyan people .In May 2008, the US firm General Dynamics inked a $165m (£102m) contract to equip the Libyan army’s elite second brigade with sophisticated communications systems.

    This force, led by Mr Gaddafi’s son Khamis, was deployed to the streets of al-Bayda – a city east of Benghazi and near the border with Egypt – where it has unleashed live ammunition on protesters.

    Export licences for British arms to Libya in the first nine months of 2010 were valued at over £200m, spanning military cameras and sniper rifles. Libya’s final death toll, already over 300, will outstrip that of Egypt’s comparatively peaceful struggle for democracy./

    Here’s the full article to help educate Cynic2 and others of the world outside Donegal Square – although one might as well throw ten buckets of cowshite at a wall.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12523007

  • Greenflag

    @ republican stones

    ‘Gore Vidal and George Carlin have (in different ways) highlighted how our notion of western democracy is actually just voting for who gets to be ordered about by the big corporations.’

    That is truer than most people want to believe . The increased concentration of capital particularly in the financial /banking sectors in Wall St and the City of London and Frankfurt ect and multi national corporations around the world has been ‘enhanced’ in ways which to describe would take up several books the result of which has been to disempower elected politicians and has made them answerable NOT to the people but to the corporations and the financial services sector .

    ‘Vidal has floated the idea of banning corporate donations to political parties.’

    Floating being the operative word -A good idea but the political parties particularly in the USA and UK are now almost like heroin addicts such is their dependency on the corporations for finance .

    What we are seeing in the Arab world is that the oul ‘trickle down’ of the oil wealth has not trickled down far enough in Egypt , Tunisia , and now Libya . Shades of what is already underway in the USA , UK and Ireland where trickle down has meant that the rich are getting richer while the poor are marginalised and where the ‘middling sort’ are squeezed from both sides by the neo conservative lunacies of Friedmanomics .

    But hey we’re getting off thread here 😉

  • From an Irish perspective, it is refreshing to see ordinary people getting the bull by the horns. I see some guy ripped down the Gadaffi flag in their London embassy and replaced it with the pre Gadaffi one.
    Gadaffi has the problem that the West don’t like him. Meanwhile, two Iranian warships have entered Suez and America’s main killers in the area, Israel are shooting off their mouths.
    The Iranians are backing the Shiites in Bahrain etc. Wde must remember that Israel helped Iran against Iraq to weaken Saddam as the USA and Britan were arming Saddam.
    I hope the people win. The smart money will be on Israel, Iran and the smarmy divide and ocnquerors of the region.

  • 241934 john brennan

    Qwerty
    Yes. I was being a bit facetious about the Yanks bombing Gaddafi’s tent. They bombed his whole tented encampment – but Gaddafi was tipped off that planes were on their way and he and his family (with the exception of the baby) escaped in time.

    The same American planes also attacked Libyan airfields and military installations. – killing 45 Libyan soldiers and 15 civilians. Two American air crew were also killed when their plane was shot down

    That attack was said to be partly in response to Libyan terrorism, e.g. a bomb planted in a West Berlin disco killing 2 American Servicemen. The subsequent bomb on a Pam AM plane, that devastated Lockerbie, resulted in 270 deaths.

    The point I’m trying to make is that all terrorism, including terrorism by proxy, is absolutely abhorrent, indiscriminate evil – no matter who commissions, or carries it out.

    When Gaddafi employed and equipped the Provos (terrorists in their own right), as his proxy terrorists attacking the English – their common purpose and actions make them jointly responsible for God only knows how many murders in Ireland and Britain.

  • The UDA were indeed over with Gaddafi as well, however from what I can gather the most recent paramilitary link between these shores and Gaddafi is these lads:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8262362.stm

    Will Alistair McDonnell be releasing a statement today calling on Matt Baggott to use his influence? If not, why not?

  • RepublicanStones

    The subsequent bomb on a Pam AM plane, that devastated Lockerbie, resulted in 270 deaths.

    For which a Libyan was stitched up. Look further to the east for the culprits.

    Greenie, I heard on the wireless a few weeks ago, that studies have shown some people can become addicted to earning money. That the opiate receptors in the brain or the part of the body responsible for endorphins or something…. had a reaction to being financially rewarded.
    At least you can flush heroin down the toilet.

  • Greenflag

    ulick,

    At least one unionist was shocked eh ?

    ‘Ulster Unionist Basil McCrea, a member of the Policing Board, said he was shocked by the news.’ i/e sending out PSNI policemen to train Ghaddafi’s police.

    On the other side as Tony Blair made security the reason for his first outreach to Libya I’m sure most people understand that it’s difficult to sell arms to a country that is unstable and maybe even falling apart and eh hope to get ‘paid’ assuming of course that such payments were not made in advance ? .

  • Greenflag

    republican stones –

    There are many addictions , nicotine , power , sex etc etc so why not money. As for flushing heroin down the toilet -fair enough but the corpse is usually buried or cremated.

    Some research is being done in the field of addiction to money in light of the economic consequences of such addiction in the past decade. Perhaps Bernard Madoff will donate his white collar criminal brain to research and others as well . Somewhere down the line then the excuse will be made that it was’nt really his fault -chap was addicted you see -ditto for our Fitzpatrick’s , Drumm’s etc . And then the ‘addiction ‘ excuse can be become another steady earner for the legal profession as they diagnose former political leaders and dictators and yes even clerics of all religions and combinations including the ‘God wants you to be Rich’
    on this earth school . Give them enough time and even Hitler and Stalin may be exonerated as being ‘addictive’ personalities .

    Although it’s been scientifically proven that nicotine is more addictive than heroin it doesn’t stop the Chinese government from running the world’s biggest tobacco factories -nor do they spend a yuan informing Chinese people that smoking not only is bad for health but leads to much shortened life spans . But then all that tax revenue derived from killing their own people helps to grease the wheels of the world’s newest capitalist model -the authoritarian brand . In this respect at least the ‘anarchic capitalist ‘ brand is more choiceful in that it informs people of the health consequences of the addiction by spending millions of taxpayers dollars, while at the same time the tobacco companies spend billions in marketing their products telling customers whatever pack of lies they can get away with !

    Perhaps science research in the bio tech areas will devise a post natal test which will diagnose for ‘addiction ‘ to various stimuli . thus those diagnosed as being addicted to power will be disallowed from entering politics as a career -those who are addicted to sex will be disqualified from becoming RC priests and those addicted to money will be unable to find employment in the financial services sector ?

    Aldous Huxley’s ‘Brave New World ‘ ?

  • Rory Carr

    Greenflag’s information on increased British arm sales to Gaddafi (£200m in the first 10 months of 2010) allows for rather a different perspective on the IRA’s receipt of arms from Gaddafi.

    It is not so much who you get your weaponry from that matters as who you intend to use it against.

    In this case Gaddafi, having no pressing security issues other than fear of his own people, was able to source weaponry from the Brits in order to maintain his oppression of those people. The IRA on the other hand sourced weaponry from Gaddafi in order to counter the British oppression of their own people.

    Indeed in using Gaddafi’s weaponry against the Brits it could be asserted that they were assisting the Libyan people by attacking one of the main suppliers of the weapons used by Gaddafi to suppress them.

    But of course this whole business of the IRA and Gaddafi being in cahoots is nonsense – they were merely happy to obtain arms from Libya as they would have been from any other source – there were no strings attached – Gaddafi had reason to be angry at the UK after their involvement in the murder of his adopted infant daughter and any enemy of Britain attracted his support accordingly.

    The salient point remains that it was not the arms that the IRA obtained from Gaddafi that were turned upon the Libyan people but rather the weapons that Gaddafi obtained from Britain. So if we are in the blame game here then please let us point the finger eastwards towards the appropriate vector where London lies.

  • 241934 john brennan

    Rory Carr
    “It is not so much who you get your weaponry from that matters as who you intend to use it against”.

    This is a distortion of reality. The true reality is who you actually use the weaponry against – and IRA wepons, including semtex killed and maimed a more innocent Irish people than they did anyone else.

    Gaddafi and the IRA have lot in common, not just the slaughter of their own people. They both live and die by rules in a “Green Book”. In fact Gaddafi wrote his own. Any ideas where he got that particular idea from?

  • Neil

    Gaddafi, like the IRA and geurilla movements around the globe, couldn’t give a monkey’s fuck where they get their weapons – price is king obviously, and the best deal gets more weaponry for the same money.

    But if you think that militants around the world should be expected to only buy weapons off gentlemen, like the kind hearted Brits who armed Gaddafi while participating in the deaths of approx. 1 million civilians in Iraq/Afghanistan, prepare for disappointment.

    The Brits in their Empire days (not that long ago) were sewing the seeds of discontent around the world in countries they had no right to be in. Who know how many deaths have occurred in former colonies, how much in terms of resources were plundered etc.

    For people to suggest that the Brits are somehow civilised, while they contribute to wholesale slaughter in the middle east, and while they arm oppressive regimes is ridiculous. Just because it’s a Brit in a suit, doesn’t make them respectable. They have more blood on their hands than most.

    But for the relevance to the IRA’s armed struggle, personally I’d have bought guns from Mugabe if I thought they were a good deal. I wonder where he bought his weaponry, just as an aside? Maybe when the kind civilised Brits pissed off out of Rhodesia and allowed the savages to run their own country they left some guns behind?

  • Reader

    Rory Carr: The salient point remains that it was not the arms that the IRA obtained from Gaddafi that were turned upon the Libyan people but rather the weapons that Gaddafi obtained from Britain. So if we are in the blame game here then please let us point the finger eastwards towards the appropriate vector where London lies.
    The tanks are all Russian and the planes mostly Russian, apart from the French ones. So, even though you lived in England so the Brits could oppress you better, you also need to point the finger eastwards.

  • Greenflag

    Rory ,

    Good post . In ‘fairness’ the British armaments industry only recently got back into the business of supplying the Libyans as did the Americans . But an interesting insight nonetheless .Ironically last week I was reminded of a ‘family ‘ connection with that part of the world as I was the recipient of some old family letters hitherto consigned to an attic in a 100 year old ‘case’ and as a result I can now claim kinship with one of the survivors of the Battle of Omdurman Sept 1898 . It seems a great grand uncle of mine assisted Kitchener in the putting down of the Mahdi at Omdurman .Some sluggerites may recall and have seen the film Khartoum where Gordon (Charles Heston ) lost his head literally to the Mahdi’s hordes when ‘relief ‘ did not arrive in time . This upset Queen Vicky at the time no end and so ‘revenge ‘ was delayed for about 13 years until Kitchener (Your country needs You) an inexperienced general at the time- took several months to gather his 26,000 strong army and advance on Khartoum . British fatalities amounted to some 60 out of of which more than half were cavalry( the 21st Lancasters ) whose Colonel Martin ordered out by Kitchener on an unnecessary re connaisance opted to demonstrate to the young Winston Churchill who came along for the ride -for the experience – how glorious a thing it was to experience a cavalry charge . Unlike the Charge of the Light Brigade most of the 400 plus cavalry made it back to safety behind British lines .

    A few hours later some 20,000 of the Mahdi’s long shirted -spear waving dervishes were dead heaped in small hillocks and Kitchener had ‘conquered’ the Sudan for an estimated 1 million pounds sterling at the time .

    For those who may be interested the gorey details are in Thomas Pakenham’s ‘Scramble for Africa ‘ . I believe Pakenham is a son of Lord Longford and an ancestor came a cropper at the Battle of New Orleans due to some misunderstanding on the logistics side over the non supply of ladders which were needed in the attack on Andrew Jackson’s position.

  • Greenflag

    addendum ‘

    The Battle of Omdurman was of course no battle . It was unmitigated slaughter as maxim guns and artillery were used against spear waving indigenes who had been roused to fight for Allah against the hated firengi by the Mahdi who seems to have been a predecessor of Osama Bin Laden in some respects but was seen as a ‘freedom ‘ fighter by most of the population .

    And now we read that another charge of the light brigade is in progress as Mr Cameron rushes to Egypt to advise them ?

    On what I wonder ? Haven’t they enough on their plate in the UK or is this North African Middle Eastern ‘meltdown ‘ taking on an appearance which bodes (despite their comments) none too well for the Anglo American vision of ‘democracy ‘ as they have been trying to enforce it in Afghanistan and Iraq ?

    Bush and Blair certainly lit a torch under the region . What were they thinking ? That Arabs would forever bend the knee to their overlords and and their overlord’s protectors ?

    Perhaps they were’nt thinking .

  • qwerty12345

    I see the war piggies Major and Cameron are in Kuwait (of all places) today talking about democracy.

    The BBC 6 O’clock news tonight noted some £22,000,000 worth of British arms sales to Libya of late, as well as £27 billion to the rest of the middle east. Yeah my jaw dropped too!

    Heres some of the recent goodies exported: (from http://www.caat.org.uk/press/archive.php?url=20110217prs )

    Libya

    * In the third quarter of 2010 (the most recent period for which figures are available), equipment approved for export included wall and door breaching projectile launchers, crowd control ammunition, small arms ammunition, tear gas/irritant ammunition, training tear gas/irritant ammunition. Ammunition comprised £3.2m of the £4.7m million of military items licensed.
    * Sniper rifles were among the other equipment licensed in 2010. No requests for licences were refused in 2010.
    * Libya is a UKTI/DSO priority market country, and the UK has made ‘high level political interventions’ in support of arms sales to Libya.
    * Libya was also invited to attend the UK arms fairs: the Farnborough Airshow in 2010 and Defence and Security Equipment International in 2009.
    * The UK had by far the largest pavilion at Libya’s arms fair LibDex in 2010, and was supported by a team from UKTI DSO.

    Bahrain

    * In 2010, equipment approved for export included tear gas and crowd control ammunition, equipment for the use of aircraft cannons, assault rifles, shotguns, sniper rifles and sub-machine guns. No requests for licences were refused.
    * UKTI DSO has listed Bahrain as a key market for UK arms exports.
    * Bahrain was invited to attend the UK arms fairs: the Farnborough Airshow in 2010 and Defence and Security Equipment International in 2009. UKTI DSO supported the Bahrain International Airshow 2010, where it organised an outdoor event.
    * UK armed forces have been used in support of sales efforts, demonstrating arms to the Royal Bahrain Artillery.

    Egypt

    In 2010: components for all-wheel drive vehicles with ballistic protection; military communications equipment; optical target surveillance equipment; components for armoured personnel carriers; components for semi-automatic pistols; and components for submachine guns.

    Oh dear.

  • qwerty12345

    So the reason Cameron was in Egypt yesterday was probably to make sure that the lucrative deals are still in place. Get in first before any changes see the Egyptian pounds going elsewhere.

    Reminds me of how Britain reacted when Idi Amin came to power, apparently the British were furious about the israelis supplying the gear that made his rise to power possible (particularly communications equipment) so they got their boys to Kampala pronto to make sure Britain wouldnt be outdone by anyone else, selling Amin anything and everything they could.

  • Driftwood
  • Greenflag

    qwerty ,

    ‘Yeah my jaw dropped too!’

    But why ? Are you surprised . It’s not as if the British are alone in the arms trade -The USA dwarfs Britain for arms sales . The Germans sell submarines to the Israelis and the French , Russians , Czechs and Chinese are all in the game .

    The UK could have prevented Idi from ever gaining power in Uganda but diplomatic lassitude and imminent independence for the country saved Amin’s bacon . Idi had crossed the Kenyan border and slaughtered some 300 people -tribal enemies which provoked protest from the one British High Commissioner to another that Amin should be arrested . Amin had been popular with the British because of his ‘boxing ‘ expertise and they were reluctant to upset the ‘ugandan ‘independence applecart so both commissioners decided to leave the matter to the two newly independent countries to sort out . When Obote the country’s first President announced he was visiting India he also was overheard by one of Amin’s tribesmen -telling another general to arrest and detain Amin before he left the country . Amin was forewarned and as soon as Obote took off for India -Amin led the coup d’etat which as well know eventually resulted in hundreds of thousands of Ugandans being killed and the country being setback by a generation .

    Amin is if I’m not mistaken still under the protection of one of the West’s most important ‘allies ‘ in the Middle East namely the degenerate aristocratic State of Saudi Arabia where Christians are not allowed their bibles and where a couple of million south Asians among others keep the country running over while most of it’s fat and increasingly unhappy 28 million Saudis live off the welfare state provided by the black gold .

  • Greenflag

    Driftwood ,

    Priceless indeed

    ‘A facelift a facelift my kingdom for a facelift’

    Fisk in form 😉

  • qwerty12345

    Hi Greenflag,

    no im not at all surprised by the extent of British or western gun running. It’s just sometimes when you hear the numbers it still has the power to shock, especially in light of recent events and the continued moral posturing of some.

  • RepublicanStones

    “Curiously not. No.”

    Which vegetarian said the above with regard to not being bothered about what British arms were used for…or on.

  • qwerty12345

    Id say Alan Clarke, right?

  • Curiously not. No.”

    Which vegetarian said the above with regard to not being bothered about what British arms were used for…or on.

    Sales to Indonesia. John Pilger documentary (I have most of them).Turdy right? I guet those p–ks confused.

    Silly request but will anyone here say a word in support of Gadaffi?
    I guess I will have to start. Like MUgabe, he has a fine looking daughter. She fell in love with her chauffeur and something similar happened to Mugabe’s one. Both males sufferered the same sad fate.

  • Mark

    He has a green book same as the lads …

  • Driftwood

    Clarkey made the inoffensive remark in relation to a question about animal cruelty. Good Bloke.

    It’s clear from the Fisk article that Gadaffi is as mad as a box of frogs. Those frogmen…..
    Anyway, do we get to pick the antecedent? That’s what democracy is all about. As the US veto in the UN recently proved.

  • qwerty12345

    JP “Did it bother you personally that you were causing such mayhem and human suffering (by supplying arms for Indonesia’s war in East Timor)?”
    AC “No, not in the slightest, it never entered my head.”
    JP “I ask the question because I read you are a vegetarian and are seriously concerned about the way animals are killed.”
    AC “Yeah?”
    JP “Doesn’t that concern extend to humans?”
    AC “Curiously not. No.”

    At least he was honest, but as me dear old mammy used to say:

    “Hell wont be full till they are all in it”

  • I can’t agree with you Driftwood. Gadaffi had obviouslylots of mates to do his dirty work. They haven’t gone away, you know. I would imagine tribal war will erupt there.

    I do hope Chavez takes him in as that will put pressure on him. Two for the price of one.

    I do not see this Arab surge ending peacefully. Down the line, I see the mother of all bust ups.

  • Mark

    It seems like there’s fight in the old dog yet .

    And he won’t be popping up from a hole in the ground either .

    I wonder will his son’s mate in the old white lady throw him a bone … Juventus F.C has alot to answer for …..

    Including selling chippy before his peak ….

  • One odd thing about Brit mis information. If he wants to hitre mercenaries, why hire black Africans when the best are Brits, Yanks and South Africans?

    I do hope Libyans win when the dust serttles but it is so rich an oil grabbing peace keeping force will probably go in a la Iraq.

  • Mark

    I hope for the sons sake . he has better military training than Uday and Qusay Hussein …. I don’t know if Gaddafi has a 14 yr old grandson .. .but if he does , the boy needs target practice pronto ..