A question in the Assembly from Michelle McIlveen to Nelson McCausland suggested that Unionists are effectively barred from joining the GAA.
While I’m delighted another DUP member has taken the time to read the GAA Official Guide, something many members have never done, I’m surprised they seem surprised to find an Irish cultural and sporting organisation doesn’t have a Unionist ethos.
Both McIlveen and McCausland call for the GAA to change its rules. For those of us with experience of the GAA that may be a valid suggestion, many clubs and a large number of members demonstrate little concern with the Basic Aim of the organisation and seem mainly focused on being production factories for senior football and hurling teams or allowing younger people to participate in these two games. If so many members have little consideration for other sports, cultural, language or national aspirations maybe the GAA would be better off codifying itself as a sporting organisation alone and negating Unionism’s criticism?
Or maybe if they we going to get flack from the likes of McIlveen and McCausland over the Official Guide the organisation could be more proactive overall in actually implementing it?
Miss McIlveen: Although the benefits of sporting events can and should be of immense value to our tourism market, does the Minister share my grave concern that unionists are, by the constitution of the GAA and the rules therein, excluded and prohibited from membership of that sporting organisation? Will the Minister call for those unacceptable rules to be amended by that organisation as a matter of urgency to reflect the shared and better future that we should all be striving for in today’s Northern Ireland?
The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure: The Member raises a very important point. There is a general commitment and recognition in society now that a shared and better future is the best way forward in Northern Ireland. In the past, I have commended the professionalism and efficiency of the GAA in how it manages its organisation and activities. I recognise the importance that many in the community attach to the GAA and the value that they place on the sports that it runs. However, I agree with the Member that there is a difficulty, and I have raised it with the GAA and Sport NI in the past; it is not something that I raise today for the first time. As the Member made her point, I noticed that some Members on the other side of the Chamber seemed to be in a state of deep denial. However, rule 1.2 sets out the basic aim of the GAA very clearly:“The Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.”
In other words, it places the games as a means to an end. That also needs to be taken in the context of rule 2.1 on membership, which states:
“Membership of the Association shall be granted only by a Club, to persons who subscribe to and undertake to further the aims and objects of the Gaelic Athletic Association, as stated in the Official Guide.”That quote comes from the current rules, which I think were approved in July. In other words, it states that, to play the games, whether Gaelic football or hurling, and be a member of a club, people have to subscribe to the basic aim, among the other aims, that has the aspiration of a united Ireland. Therefore, people who are from a unionist tradition and do not subscribe to that particular political aspiration find themselves excluded from participation in those games. [Interruption.]
The GAA needs to address that issue if it is to contribute, as it could, to a shared and better future. It would be better if some Members faced up to that with a little bit of honesty and humility rather than engaging in the practice of denial. We must look at how we can address the issue and move forward for the benefit of not just the GAA but all society in Northern Ireland. It is possible to be a Protestant and play Gaelic games. However, according to the rules, it is not possible to be a unionist and play Gaelic games.
Aside: I know this topic will present an almost irresistible temptation for some but please don’t go down the ‘whatabout’ road. Deal with this and if you want a mirror topic on any other organisation/s feel free to write up a draft and email it.
[Moderator’s update: Comments are now closed. This thread has declined below Slugger’s standards.]
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Often wondered why the GAA needs to ‘reach out’ to unionism or indeed why the OO should ‘reach out’ to nationalism. Different organisations have or can have very different ethos’. Whats the problem.?Just because I might have different views from a friend doses not mean they cannot be a friend? Lets all grow up!
““The Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.”
Yes. And that is why it is both the greatest and most important organisation in Irish life.
I, personally would not change it.
It would both encourage partitionism and secondly be a slippery slope.
Unionists would simply move on to the promotion of Irish music and dance and most of all would attempt to anglise the organisation through the removal of the Gaelic language – long declared ‘offensive’.
In other words, the Irish Rules Football association.
No thanks – I joined the organisation founded by Michael Ciosóg.
McCausland has openly declared that he believed there to be a Culture War in the North.
It is clear that he does not envisage any place for any Gaelic culture in the ‘Shared Future’, which is Alliance speak for anglicisation.
I care nothing of his opinion of the GAA.
If Unionist feel they cannot join the GAA that is unfortunate, but clearly it is of no consequence to the vitality of the organisation.
Its not a matter of Unionists ‘feeling’ they cant join the GAA! They cant join and still be Unionists!
Translated:
GAA is non-religious, Protestant Catholic or Dissenter are welcome to join ON THE PROVISO that you abandon your political/ cultural/ ethnic identity.
“1.11 Non-Party Political
The Association shall be non-party political. Party political
questions shall not be discussed at its meetings, and no
Committee, Club, Council or representative thereof
shall take part, as such, in any party political movement.
A penalty of up to twenty four weeks suspension may be
imposed for infringement.”
“1.12 Anti-Sectarian/Anti-Racist
The Association is Anti-Sectarian and Anti-Racist. Any
conduct by deed, word or gesture of a sectarian or racist
nature against any player, official, spectator or anyone else,
in the course of activities organised by the Association,
shall be deemed to have discredited the Association.”
Creationist McCausland should take a look at his own glass houses before he decides to start throwing stones.
If the GAA really want a 32 county Ireland it would be a good start if they changed their rules. Blocking someone is not a good way of saying “join us”.
As to whatever other groups do, well no nationalist wants to join those.
I think the GAA (and indeed cultural groups such as Conradh) have done as much to put republicanism/nationalism in the place it is today as Sinn Féin-IRA and SDLP. Indeed perhaps its strength lies in the fact that its a unifying factor in nationalist/republican life.
(or if you prefer it “Catholic” life)
Attend any match and youll see a SDLP or SF person (there from conviction rather than being “seen” by the voters). and of course thats the same for the vast numbers of ordinary anonymous punters on the sideline. You might find yourself discussing the merits of a Tyrone referee (absolutely no merits)…….with a SDLP or SF supporter but as long as he or she (other sports please take note…the GAA is very well supported by women and girls) is wearing the county colours do we really care?
And thats the great strength of the GAA….our own local side named for a Republican icon (not Rovers or United or Wanderers)…..is “our” parish/village……and our biggest rivals are the other lot named for a nationalist icon of earlier vintage.
For a few Sundays in a year we get to wear the county shirt (or in my case two county shirts). And theres no harm in the fact that theres other folks who just happen to be wearing other county shirts. Most GAA fans will be familiar with the promotion showing a pic of two youngsters …..in Tyrone and Armagh shirts……”rivals for 70 minutes……cousins forever”. Thats how it is around the Moy (Tyrone) and Charlemont (Armagh) and its mirrored thru the island.
I dont particuarly need Michelle McIlveen or Nelson McCausland on the sideline. The GAA, Gaelic language is about ME…..my family, my neighbours….not theirs. Just as the Orange Order is about them……their family….their neighbours.
The object of the exercise in Norn Iron is not to facilitate or patronise each other. The Agreement (like it or not) underpins Division. It would actually be disloyal to the Agreement to do all this “touchy feely outreach stuff”. Just how often and for how long will unionists need re-assurance and confidence building measures.
We have two communities with their hands around each others throats……thankfully nobody is (currently) choking the other but relax the grip and thats what happens.
The objective of unionists and nationalists (whether moderate or extremist) is not to “understand” the other lot. Life is much too short for me to try and understand Nelson McCausland.
The objective for unionist and nationalist (despite touchy feely rhetoric) is to destroy the other side.
To that end the GAA serves a purpose. As does the Orange Order.
God, Orangies are a pathetic lot. Once you sign up to any organisation, you agree to adhere to its rules and objectives. The GAA is no different except for this: it has a great heritage which is important in, inter alia, retaining its amateur status and in having it in every parish in Ireland,. something the IRFU and the waster/wankers of FAI/IFA could only dream about.
I doubt any of the DUP speakers ever played any sport.
Speaking of which,
a. why no thread on the Catholics who won gold at the Commonwealth games and who will soon be representing Mother Ireland in one of the GAA’s original games at the Olympics?
b. glad to see no thread on the dismal perfromance of the home nations and a half in the soccer.
c. no update on the QUB 11.2 case? Tut tut.
This is obvioulsy a well planned attack by the DUP and perhaps will be linked in some way to funding.
But the DUP do have a point. The reality is though that the rule below is never enforced and not enforceable ( “Do you renounce the Queen and all her evil deeds”) and the GAA should drop it although I suspect that is the last thing the DUP actually wants.
“Membership of the Association shall be granted only by a Club, to persons who subscribe to and undertake to further the aims and objects of the Gaelic Athletic Association, as stated in the Official Guide.”
The nelson fellow he is a canny one at that, i feel he would have been well up the pira hit list had most of them not caught themselves on. one fear of mine would be that if all the young nats take to playing for the republics football team we will have a all unionist i.f.a and maybe members/players will have sweer loyalty to britain. Or would that be sectarian?. me i think clubs should be able to admit whomever they choose.
It was Sammy: But the DUP do have a point.
Phew – that was a bit of a shock to me too. Of course you are right. The position of the GAA is perfectly legitimate, and it would be none of Nelson’s or Michelle’s business if the GAA wasn’t collecting Government money. But since it does, it is Assembly business
On the other hand, some Orange Lodges also collect government money, on condition that they make their premises available for some cross community activities within the local community. (Normally as premises for a day nursery, I expect). The GAA could also keep its nationalist ethos and still qualify for government money if it jumped through a couple of hoops, and so far as I know it might well do so already.
(Oops – that might have breached Mark’s stipulation on whataboutery. I’m actually trying to be a wee bit positive.)
Reader,
I was hoping GAA members/fans wouldn’t deal with the question by falling back on ‘whatabout’ the Loyal Orders. The conversation will go where it goes, my intention was to suggest a bit of focus on the GAA.
Maybe I’m jumping to conclusions here, but I’m wondering if there is a link between the high degree of disability in Nationalist areas of Northern Ireland and involvement in GAA sports.
Should there be some sort of a health warning about the GAA? After all, ultra-unionist North Down has the lowest figures for disability. Perhaps Nationalists could learn a thing or two about health and well-being from the Orangies!
give pinni the power to start a post, 1 in 5 in west belfast (including shankill?)wow i am shocked. Sorry mark.
You can support the strengthening of a 32 county national identity and still support partition. This is a complete non-issue.
Dan – what would your opinion be on dropping the word “party” from 1.11?
Its a 32 county Ireland not a 32 county UNITED Ireland
PS Ireland does have 32 Counties. 26 are Irish and 6 British
This is British Ireland
Technically I might be a member of the Orange Order. Im a member of their Facebook Group which is probably the same thing as actually being a member.
Reader,
Nelson will be dishing out some money to soccer-lady-ball, rugby and GAA – perhap he will be holding the money back for the GAA saying that they are in breach of the law.
He is already holding back Rugby and GAA money until the soccer-lady-ball people in the IFA sort themselves out – which I have to say seemed a bit out of order.
Tommo-the-Orangeman (UUP Leader) must be really pissedoff – no sooner had he dissed the GAA to get elected than the DUP turn up in Stormo and trump him.
Curse you McGregor, McIlveen & McCausland! yous have stolen my article 🙁 I was about to post on this very issue tomorrow, and now my efforts have been wasted… got to be quicker on the draw…
although come to think of it does Michelle read Slugger? I posted that rule on here a few weeks ago…
maybe we can put this question to the GAA?
Does Michelle read Slugger?
Michelle, if you are reading this have you had your arms shortened or did you just put on someones elses coat by mistake.
There are millions of people on this island with a 32-county identity and the GAA is just one of the many manifestations of this reality.
For those having difficulty getting their heads around this, get over it, move on, it’s not going to change any time soon if ever.
P.S. Up the Dubs.
“……The object of the exercise in Norn Iron is not to facilitate or patronize each other. The Agreement (like it or not) underpins Division. It would actually be disloyal to the Agreement to do all this “touchy feely outreach stuff”. Just how often and for how long will unionists need re-assurance and confidence building measures…….. ”
For the last thirty years I have been hearing about ‘unionists being in transition’ from protestant cultural friends. Transidition to what….. no one seems to know. Many are involved in trad music and in general what I continually see with them is they get enculturalised and ‘go native’ over a few years without in any way compromising their ‘unionist’ identity.
There is no big deal socially of culturally. Politically is another matter and while there is votes to be had from banging an orange drum they will be politicians to do it prepared to concentrate on what divides rather than what unites.
I was kinda nodding furiously in agreement until you got to the post-script……:)
FJH,
Do you not suspect that this is a precursor to a DUP move to try and block funding to the GAA?
“We must look at how we can address the issue and move forward for the benefit of not just the GAA but all society in Northern Ireland.”
Simple no money for the OO no money for the GAA no money for ANY sports which are supported by only one community
there are 9 million bicycles in beijine. and 60+ million Britons, get your head round that.The GAA should be able to set its own rules, but they cannot think non irish nats will support them if they are only for irish nats, toms uup stance starts to make sence if you follow GAA logic.
barnshee,
“which are supported by only one community”
rather – which excludes any community
sammy “block funding” why yessssssssssssssss.
“However, according to the rules, it is not possible to be a unionist and play Gaelic games.”
The GAA, like many other organisations on this island somewhat inconveniently pre-date partition. Are to we go back and doctor every individual item in case someone within unionism can find offence in them somewhere because they weren’t forensically cleansed of evidence of pre-1921 language or terminology? I’ve no inclination to try and excavate my way through the various revisions of the GAA Official Guide just for this but I’d guess that “…as it’s basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland…” had ’32 County’ inserted after partition, otherwise the sentence could well date back to the 1880s. The border is a modern invention, not a historical entity of any meaningful antiquity, so Nelson and co should just get over it – they wanted it, they can deal with it – the world was not created in 1921.
I think its posturing by Nelson McCausland.
At the end of the day it doesnt really matter what he says.
Its not like hes important.
“However, according to the rules, it is not possible to be a unionist and play Gaelic games.”
The GAA, like many other organisations on this island somewhat inconveniently pre-date partition. Are to we go back and doctor every individual item in case someone within unionism can find offence in them somewhere because they weren’t forensically cleansed of evidence of pre-1921 language or terminology? I’ve no inclination to try and excavate my way through the various revisions of the GAA Official Guide just for this but I’d guess that “…as it’s basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland…” had ’32 County’ inserted after partition, otherwise the sentence could well date back to the 1880s. The border is a modern invention, not a historical entity of any meaningful antiquity, so Nelson and co should just get over it – they wanted it, they can deal with it – the world was not created in 1921.
None of the GAA-Heads has actually argued that McCausland and Ms McIlveen is wrong in their assertion here; the defence instead being along the lines of
“Yeah? And so what? We are not intersted in what the Brits’ stooges think of us. Now gissus the money Mr Bigot and bugger off.”
You are all falling over yourselves to prove his argument.
I’m sure the DUP are playing a bigger game here to forestall criticism of the delay of funds to the GAA and the Ulster RU because of the continuing paralysis within the IFA.
So in Chile they (and the world) celebrate the release of the miners in a tale that demonstrates human achievement and recovery under the most desperate of circumstances. Meanwhile in Stormont the DUP set out to dig an even bigger political bit and climb into it in just another symptom of the ‘themuns and usuns” mindset that still afflicts so many of our politicians. (Sorry Nelson, I cant be bothered to make up an Ulster Scots version of that but I am sire you have someone on the payroll who can)
So I have an idea on this shared futures malarky.
Could we rent that mine and the equipment from the Peruvians and lower the Executive and Assembly into it until they catch the run of themselves?
I am not being unkind. We could allow them food and drink (within reason) in return for results and although I am sure it would be expensive we could the save the cost of next years election and I’d challenge even our MLAs to claim expenses down there. We might even turn a profit.
Of course there is always the risk that it might not work. Indeed, they might just breed down there and turn into some race of political hob-goblins, disconnected from the real world and real issues (like jobs) that are troubling their fellow men and women However, in that case there is a major UK company with significant experience of plugging up large pipes at great depth.
Seems like a classic case of going out of your way to find offense.
You can interpret the rule in two ways: as a political statement or as a cultural and sporting statement.
Should the All-Ireland League also be interpreted as a political statement by the IRFC?
Even if the minister believes there are two nations on this island in addition to two states, can he deny that the nations are not bounded by the political boundaries?
Does he suggest that it is impossible to be culturally Gaelic and Unionist or culturally Ulster-Scots and Nationalist?
The GAA makes explicit in its rules that it is non-political and non-sectarian. Inevitably that will not be true for all its members. And perhaps inevitably its rules have been politicised in the past. But it has made significant efforts to undo that in recent years. Just how much progress has been made is highlighted by the small mindedness of this complaint.
The DUP double act brings discredit on the attitude of the Minister and the MLA far more than that of the GAA.
Having said all that, and not intending to detract from my argument in any way, given the reach of the GAA these days the wording of the rule doesn’t reflect the reality of its efforts, never mind its ambition.
The following wording might be a more accurate statement:
“strengthening of the National Identity throughout all of Ireland and overseas”
I would like to make one point –
““The Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.”
There is no political aim there. It is a case of cultural identity, which it makes clear is in a 32 county context.
Mark – as an aside – when I see Nelson McCausland use the words ‘…a shared and better future…’, an not in an ironic way, it is hard to keep a straight face and provide a sensible response.
I think one point in the Pete and Dud routine has been overlooked up to now, Michelle’s “the benefits of sporting events can and should be of immense value to our tourism market” – i.e. the GAA has no actual value as a sporting organisation other than as a tourist attraction. People have noted that this is a precursor to some other move to block funding – I’d wonder if it isn’t an inane attempt to remove ‘sports’ funding from the GAA and put any moneys on a par with Orangefest and other pet projects of Nelson’s involving the orders – trying to make an equivalence between funding for both.
FJH,
“At the end of the day it doesnt really matter what he says.
Its not like hes important.”
He is already delaying the funding to the GAA and Rugby.
Ah, the GAA, the orginal North-South Body, hope the DUP never hear a Irish tourism advert, they’ll be well annoyed
Incidently does the OO have a different ‘national identity’ in the South?
“The border is a modern invention”
Just like the GAA then. Invented to further the aims of Irish republicanism and nationalism, and incidentally the main recruiting ground for the IRB. The GAA is not a normal sporting organisation and if it wants to be one then it needs to dump its political baggage.
If it doesn’t want to be a normal sporting organisation then fine. Just don’t piss down unionists’ backs and tell them that it is raining.
The GAA can I suppose set whichever rules they want.
But the OP and unfortunately (*choke) so are the DUP – although obviously their motivations are as divisive as the rule itself.
Yes the rule/constitution excludes Unionists from being members of the GAA – they either have to not be Unionists or not be proper GAA members – thats even if they care enough to try and make the two possible together.
Problem is you shouldnt have to compromise your politics to join an organisation whose primary function is sporting – and most GAA members have a purely sporting relationship with the GAA.
As to wether ANY organisation in 2010 should set rules which exclude people from membership – I am genuinely torn, my instinct is: yes they should be allowed to, but no they shouldn’t exercise that right – I have more than a passing interest in the GAA, have loads of friends who play and have been to quite a few games – however I have never held a gaelic ball, hurley or sliotar nor set foot in a GAA club – would that be different if the rule wasn’t there – actually it might well be.
None of the GAA-Heads has actually argued that McCausland and Ms McIlveen is wrong in their assertion here; the defence instead being along the lines of
“Yeah? And so what? We are not intersted in what the Brits’ stooges think of us. Now gissus the money Mr Bigot and bugger off.”
You are all falling over yourselves to prove his argument.
I’m sure the DUP are playing a bigger game here to forestall criticism of the delay of funds to the GAA and the Ulster RU because of the continuing paralysis within the IFA.
Perhaps all sports should have similar rules. They should stand for something more than binge drinking and whatever brand of “thought” Mr McCausland stands for. Listening to DUPers spread their bile, why have the monkeys instead of the organ grinders? Get rid of Stormont and let the Brits dish out their own dosh.
I think this is a dishonest means of attacking the GAA purely for the sake of it.
Let’s think about it with an alternative example.
Most Unionists would regard the Northern Ireland football team as a cross-community entity. Yet by playing for it, a nationalist would have to provide a de facto endorsement for the division of the island in two. This is a unionist aspiration.
Using DUP logic, wouldnt this mean that nationalists should feel similarly excluded from supporting the IFA?
What gets on my tits as an Irish Unionist is the mutual interchangeability of Irish and Gaelic. It’s as if Ireland is of the Gael and the Gael of Ireland.
“Gaelic” football existed long before the GAA was ever dreamt up. It’s obviously just the Irish variant, of which there were many, of other footballing games that existed throughout the British Isles for centuries. Hurling also seems to me that it’s a derivative of hockey. For example, the Statute of Galway of 1527 banned “hokie’ — the hurling of a little ball with sticks or staves” as well as other sports. So, 500 years ago hurling was described as hokie. That sounds rather similar to hockey. Which is in itself a derivative of hockshay – a game from ancient Egypt still played in rural parts of that country.
They’re not Gaelic in origin They’re not even Irish in origin. They’re just Irish versions of foreign sports. Similar to the other uber Irish Nationalist game of road bowls – brought over by millworkers from northern England. Although, I have to say I wouldn’t mind a go at the auld road bowls…
Just out of curiosity, has the GAA ever opposed any of the EU referendums in pursuit of “the Nation’s desire to live her own life, to govern her own affairs”.
I also note a possibly disturbing reference to ‘our race’ in the preamble to the official guide.
Of course, the Gaelic word for hurling goes back a very long time indeed, it is no evidence at all what English speakers described the game as.
I meant EU treaties.
‘The position of the GAA is perfectly legitimate, and it would be none of Nelson’s or Michelle’s business if the GAA wasn’t collecting Government money. But since it does, it is Assembly business’
It would seem that the IFA are a little absent minded when it comes to investigating certain incidents. Perhaps one for McCausland to comment on!
http://belfastmedia.com/news_article.php?ID=4393
Seems like a classic case of going out of your way to find offense.
You can interpret the rule in two ways: as a political statement or as a cultural and sporting statement.
Should the All-Ireland League also be interpreted as a political statement by the IRFC?
Even if the minister believes there are two nations on this island in addition to two states, can he deny that the nations are not bounded by the political boundaries?
Does he suggest that it is impossible to be culturally Gaelic and Unionist or culturally Ulster-Scots and Nationalist?
The GAA makes explicit in its rules that it is non-political and non-sectarian. Inevitably that will not be true for all its members. And perhaps inevitably its rules have been politicised in the past. But it has made significant efforts to undo that in recent years. Just how much progress has been made is highlighted by the small mindedness of this complaint.
The DUP double act brings discredit on the attitude of the Minister and the MLA far more than that of the GAA.
Having said all that, and not intending to detract from my argument in any way, given the reach of the GAA these days the wording of the rule doesn’t reflect the reality of its efforts, never mind its ambition.
The following wording might be a more accurate statement:
“strengthening of the National Identity throughout all of Ireland and overseas”
As the rule is constituted it simply states strengthening the National Identity throughout the 32 counties. A lot of unionists keep saying
1. They are as Irish as anyone else
2. They have no objections to Gaelic culture and soem are actually interested in it
So given 1, if the term “Irish” as an overarching term is to mean anything, there must be some 32 county identity that could be strengthened. Perhaps they’d argue its not Gaelic but then they said 2.. and anyway you have a small tail wagging the dog.
The GAA was founded as more than a sporting organisation. It has remained one for the course of its life. KIt’s never going to be completely non political because it lobbies governments for help to do more of the things it likes. It’s part of its success and while yes, it’s primarily about pumping out hurlers and footballers are you seriously telling me GAA clubs are never used for Irish classes or celilis or various other aspects of Gaelic culture? They are used for other things too, but I guess their presence means you get moreof that sort of stuff about.
If the rule read:
““The Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the Gaelic Identity in Ireland’s 32 counties through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.”
It’d tone down nationalist political implications but um, would it make much practical difference to Unionists? Can’t see it. They aren’t barred now.
The GAA is one of the few institutions where Nordies play a full, active and unambiguous part in the life of the Nation. This is why Unionists are gunning for it, not because they’e any pressing desire to play hurling.
“The GAA is one of the few institutions where Nordies play a full, active and unambiguous part in the life of the Nation. This is why Unionists are gunning for it, not because they’e any pressing desire to play hurling”
Agreed. Nelson doesn’t agree with sport on Sundays, Catholic masses and so on. The British should put these pupppies in their place. Take the funding away from Stormont, not the GAA.
Of ocurse, the GAA will survive and outlive all the DUP can throw at them.
If the myths are to be believed hurling is pre Gaelic…
what a load of tosh – Gaelic football was invented in the 19th Century by Michael Cusack – taking what he thought were the best parts of football and rugby (did you think the goalposts, pitch, number of players etc were just a pure coincidence?) and producing a game as good as neither.
It is a complete fabrication along with all the other fabrications in the ‘Celtic revival’ including the one about Gaels/Celts being a different race from the Anglo Saxon. A claim, as recently evidenced by Trinity College using DNA, to be entirely bogus.
what a load of tosh – Gaelic football was invented in the 19th Century by Michael Cusack – taking what he thought were the best parts of football and rugby (did you think the goalposts, pitch, number of players etc were just a pure coincidence?) and producing a game as good as neither.
It is a complete fabrication along with all the other fabrications in the ‘Celtic revival’ including the one about Gaels/Celts being a different race from the Anglo Saxon. A claim, as recently evidenced by Trinity College using DNA, to be entirely bogus.
Michael Cusack codified the rules of gaelic fotball about the same time the British and French armies were codifying very many of the games that now constigtute the Olympics – and the Aussies were codifying Aussie rules and, I am sure, the Americans, American rules
There were all kinds of inputs into these games, not least the faction fighting between villages where places like Bannagher and Donnybrook excelled.
The British influence in Gaelic is most noted in the centrality of the British county system. There are school kids from umpteen races playing gaelic in Ireland today. Older peoepel such as the O’Hailpins and J Sherlock have made their mark.
Turnpike and other Orangies: Don’t project your racism on to the GAA. Keep it in yourself, where it belongs.
None of the above is true. Simple as that.
Maybe the overworked Equality Commission should take a look at the GAA Constitution.
Your rights
Individuals in Northern Ireland are protected against discrimination on grounds of race, religious belief or political opinion, sex, sexual orientation, age (from 1 October 2006) or because of a disability. If you have been discriminated against on any of these grounds you may be able to bring a complaint to a tribunal or to a county court.
http://www.equalityni.org/sections/default.asp?secid=2
I have no problem with the GAA being culturally gaelic and politically nationalist – so what .
But that is one of the reasons Tom Elliott had an issue with it – ie the nationalist bit – which he earned unjust criticism for IMHO.
However in addition to being cultuarly gaelic and politically nationalist it is also a major sporting body – and I would say for the vast majority of the participants and the supporters it is the sporting bit they relate to.
Hence it is sporting, cultural and political, all to varying degrees and each one of can and will seek both enjoyment and offence depending on which part we choose to emphasise.
However what is indefensible for the GAA – and something they should be rightly critised for – is any flirting or association with militant republican organistions who were regarded as criminals in both jurisdictions on this island as well as throughout the civilised world
The GAA are also supposed to encourage Irish cultural expressions such as music. How come there weren’t too many GAA supporters out at Ardoyne not merely tolerating their Irish brethern of an orange hue but actually promoting this particularly Irish form of music.
They should of course.
There are other circumstances – but who knows what the future may hold.
Alan Maskey ‘Turnpike and other Orangies: Don’t project your racism on to the GAA. Keep it in yourself, where it belongs.’
Irish actually, and not remotely racist but; embarrassed by the ultra nationalist dinosaurs that run the insular and parochial GAA; bemused by ‘nationalists’ from Northern Ireland that cling desperately to the GAA, wrap themselves in the tricolour and sing loud another country’s anthem to some how imagine themselves part of their ’32 county republic’.
The GAA was founded at a time when mostly middle-aged, Anglo-Irish men (insecure in their own Irishness – ditto, Northern Ireland ‘nationalists’) were grasping for a fundamental/racial point of difference with the ‘Anglo – Saxon’ (Brits as Anglo-Saxon being as bogus as Irish as Gaels/Celts).
Gaelic Irish revivalism (of which the GAA was a key part), much the same as the Scottish highland culture, is a retrospective invention cooked up in the 19th century. The artificial creation of new traditions such as Gaelic football, presented as ancient and distinctive was an attempt to assert a separate Irish identity as a kind of protest against Union with England.
Hi Séamus,
Glad you agree. Genuinely.
There has always been a risk of overflow between cultural nationalism and political nationalism, when you promote the virtues of your national culture, its bound to have a positive effect on a nations sense of independence at best or can easily turn into xenophobia at worst. Thats true whether its Irish nationalism or British nationalism. Both sides of the cultural divide in Ireland can be accused of failing to exhibit enough respect for each others traditions.
Add in democratic and decentralised management structures and it can hardly be unexpected that there are instances of leniency or collaboration in one direction or sectarianism in the other.
But if you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will.
The only productive response is to look for the good in people. Let Tom Elliott (or any other unionist) seek out the proud Sean Nós singer, the sportsmen and sportswomen and the many other GAA members who are driven by pride and not bitterness. Let Nationalist respond in kind to Orange culture. Then words of caution and hurt have a chance of being heard with a sympathetic ear.
He has a right to criticize, who has a heart to help. – Lincoln
money.
well no nationalist wants to join those.
…
“For the last thirty years I have been hearing”
I think you should stop listening to the voices in your head.
er, abuse?
Earlier reply awaiting moderation because of links:
Can we keep this to a discussion of the politics (or not) of the GAA rulebook please.
There are other locations covering the history of Hurling, Shinty, Gaelic football and Caid if you wish to argue the history, evolution and codification of field sports.
I’d hate to deprive you of your sport but lets try to keep it on topic.
Adds:
I’ll agree you have a point about some of the creativity employed in various 19th century revivals and the sharp distinctions drawn between the cultures. I think you have swung too far in the other direction though. And I still think its a topic for another thread and/or location.
So, tell me, who were the Anglo-Irish men involved in the founding of the GAA?
Have you ever heard of the Tailteann Games?
Thank you… Tailteann Games are a perfect illustration of my point.
Based on a complete myth/legend King Lugh blah blah blah and revived by a man who really did belong in the 19th Century, de Valera. It was positioned as the first “meeting of the Irish race”!!! complete with ‘celtic warriors’, mock ‘round towers’ – basically the precursor of many a fascist rally a decade later.
J.J. Walsh, who was a senior figure in the GAA and instrumental in the revival of the Tailteann games, was later to be found in the ultra nationalist and fascist Ailtirí na hAiséirghe during WWII. Some of their enlightened policies included – the criminalisation of the public use of the English language, discriminatory measures against jews and the reconquest of Northern Ireland
Perhaps invitations to perform non-competitively on the fringe of Scór competitions would be a good start.
Or even co-operation or support for one or more of the Band Associations for events like http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Ulster-bands-invited-to-international.6063320.jp
“…..“Gaelic” football existed long before the GAA was ever dreamt up. It’s obviously just the Irish variant, of which there were many, of other footballing games that existed throughout the British Isles for centuries….. ”
Correct, most European cultures had some forms of ball games involving kicking a large ball around and the same applied also to forms of striking a small ball with a stick of some sort. The fact that both forms existed in South America prior to European ‘discovery’ would suggest there is something intrinsic to human social interplay in these ball games.
( The American example is not definate : if St Brendan discovered America, then one thing is certain, he never left Kerry without a foot ball and a spare in the Currach. It is then possible that South Americans were playing foot ball well ahead of say, Tyrone, which explains the rough, unskilled play there, they are still evolving compare to the accomplished Munster game! )
It strikes me as somewhat ironic that given so much not working and disfunctional in the Six Counties that the DUP should target the GAA one of the few things that do.
It seems to me that this is more of the visceral DUP reaction and opposition to a successful aspect Irish culture that they could play to their own yahoo gallery on and in this regard the ‘question of funding’ etc was just an acceptable peg to hang prejudice on !
My personal take on this latest storm in the Stormount tea cup is that it could have had it its genesis in Gerry’s PR stunt to ‘GAA’ Carson during the summer, that got up a few noses and as John EB pointed out some weeks back if SF encroach on what the DUP regard as their political or cultural territory, then the DUP push right back in some other area.
I hope I am wrong on this ! There is one thing that the GAA could do before the organization becomes a political football. The GAA president and all the Six County board chairmen and runais should offer to meet a combined DUP/ UUP delegation at Stormount for an open-end discussion about each others concerns and then go back to their respective organizations and examine what can be done to advance understanding and co-operation for the benefit of society as a whole.
It is a measure of where we are at with the skewed cultural politics on this Island that immigrant and first generation Vietnamese Chines and African Irish Foreign National teenage GAA players in Dublin know more about the nature and character of the GAA than the leaders of the DUP and the UUP.
This is all the more extraordinary and amazing when one considers that the GAA is the biggest social organization for Nationalists in the Six Counties. Is there as glaring an example of cultural irgonance as is displayed by the leadership of these two Unionist parties, to be found elsewhere in European politics ?
Whoever thought up this little wheeze on the DUP may find that they have cut a stick to beat themselves and they may also yet find their cultural irgonance is anything but an attractive proposition for the majority of the peoples on these Islands !
“Based on a complete myth/legend King Lugh blah blah blah and revived by a man who really did belong in the 19th Century, de Valera.”
That is some achievement for a two year old just arrived back in Ireland from New York in 1884 when the GAA was founded.
JJ Walsh* was 4 when the GAA was founded.
The man credited with the inspiration for founding the GAA is Michael Cusack (there is a stand in Croke Park called after him). Michael Cusack was a teacher from Clare.
*I can’t think of any GAA ground called after him which would seem to indicate he wasn’t that highly thought of in the GAA.
You still haven’t told me who the Anglo-Irish were involved in founding the GAA?
Oh, with regard to De Valera – he was a rugby man and good enough to play fullback for Munster a couple of times.
“……..I also note a possibly disturbing reference to ‘our race’ in the preamble to the official guide…….”
If you were aware of the input to the Celtic Revival in the last quarter of the nineteenth Century of the likes of Bishop Graves, Michael Cuasac, Douglas Hyde, Samuel Fergeson Yeaths and the plethora of so many more fine Protestant Patriot men and women that helped recover and re-define Irish identity, then you would not find this ‘disturbing’
Rather these fine people would be absolutely amazed if they thought that a a century later people of their protestant background could be so alienated from the culture that they gave leadership in forging as to find peaceful expressions of this culture ‘disturbing’
The fact that popular Nationalist / Catholic culture have appropriated these Protestant Patriots, ignored ‘unsuitable’ aspects of their values and incorporated them into a sectarian one division history is no excuse for ignorance of these fine people by modern day descendants of that culture and their contributions to forging an Irish National identy.
Protestant input was central to the IRB, in the States many IRB also took part in Masonic Lodges and had constant interface with protestant ethos. This abomination of a State that allowed the RC dominance and abuse of previous decades and the recent plunder of the Irish Nations finances by a corrupt Golden Circle facilitated by a bought off political and state system is as far from IRB values and their intentions for a Free Irish Nation as Pasleys Presbyterianism is from the Church Of Rome!
‘However what is indefensible for the GAA – and something they should be rightly critised for – is any flirting or association with militant republican organistions’
John
Did the IFA take any action against Glentoran when they decided to hold a minute’s silence for the leader of the political wing of the UVF, a few years back. ?
“The GAA are also supposed to encourage Irish cultural expressions such as music. How come there weren’t too many GAA supporters out at Ardoyne not merely tolerating their Irish brethern of an orange hue but actually promoting this particularly Irish form of music.”
The GAA do promote bands – except they confine their marching to GAA stadiums.
Have you ever watched a GAA match and the entertainment before it? For instance, a band from Enniskillen lead the parade at the Tipperary v Waterford hurling semi final this year. The All Ireland final usually goes to the Artane Band though.
“…….The GAA is one of the few institutions where Nordies play a full, active and unambiguous part in the life of the Nation……”
Well I suppose I will grant you that……. in as much as the Nordies do provide a few good warm up matches for Southern Teams on their way to to Croke Park, they do play a useful function and are a necessary part of the GAA !
In all fairness we Southern do recognize that fact, credit where credit is due, we allow Sam to be carried back over the border occasionally to acknowledge your contribution and allow you in turn to annoy the unionists for a few weeks while you a celebrating your pretend victory.
In a united Ireland these little concessions will no longer be necessary, but never fear your can always arrange a few school tours to the South where your children can even hold Sam and be photographed with the cup.
Never let it be said that we were not grateful for all the practice games you provided !
I’m sorry if it wasn’t clear enough for you.
De Valera revived the Tailteann Games (announced 1921, held in 1924) ably assisted by J.J. Walsh.
J.J. Walsh was a former GAA County Board Chairman in Cork, quite important – but obviously not as ‘highly thought of’ as fellow Nazi collaborators like Charlie Kerins and Sean McCool to warrant a stadium named after him.
I’m not going to waste the energy trying to enlighten some of the anti GAA ranters above. They have to justify their intolerance.
On nelsons statment. Sorry but almost half of the people in the six counties identify with the 32 county irish identity and to try to force these people to drop this to gain government funding is sectarian.
There is nothing to stop any unionist from, attending a match, playing for a team or joining the GAA. If you feel you can’t join because of th rule don’t join. Many followers and players of the GAA are not members.
The GAA are also supposed to encourage Irish cultural expressions such as music. How come there weren’t too many GAA supporters out at Ardoyne not merely tolerating their Irish brethern of an orange hue but actually promoting this particularly Irish form of music.
They should of course.
There are other circumstances – but who knows what the future may hold.
stewart1
For starters what has this total whataboutery got to do with the GAA and me condemning any association it has with PIRA ?
– bearing in mind that I am no supporter of loyalist paramilitarism in any event.
As for David Ervine he had the Chief Constable at his funeral along with all the leaders of the main political parties here – plus quite a few from the ROI.
I think they were providing a mark of respect for his political endeavours and the fact he was the local MLA and prominent supporter – not for his past activities with the UVF.
Alan Maskey ‘Turnpike and other Orangies: Don’t project your racism on to the GAA. Keep it in yourself, where it belongs.’
Irish actually, and not remotely racist but; embarrassed by the ultra nationalist dinosaurs that run the insular and parochial GAA; bemused by ‘nationalists’ from Northern Ireland that cling desperately to the GAA, wrap themselves in the tricolour and sing loud another country’s anthem to some how imagine themselves part of their ’32 county republic’.
The GAA was founded at a time when mostly middle-aged, Anglo-Irish men (insecure in their own Irishness – ditto, Northern Ireland ‘nationalists’) were grasping for a fundamental/racial point of difference with the ‘Anglo – Saxon’ (Brits as Anglo-Saxon being as bogus as Irish as Gaels/Celts).
Gaelic Irish revivalism (of which the GAA was a key part), much the same as the Scottish highland culture, is a retrospective invention cooked up in the 19th century. The artificial creation of new traditions such as Gaelic football, presented as ancient and distinctive was an attempt to assert a separate Irish identity as a kind of protest against Union with England.
Turnpike: Charlie Kerins was not a Nazi collaborator as you allege. He was an accomplished GAA player who now has a GAA club jointly called after him. He was also hung by the Dev government.
Kerins was a much admired man, even by such as Derbhla Murphy who had no time for the IRA. The Kerry “Republican” GAA is as woven into the faric of irish life as is the Free State Cavan team.
There was a Tailteanhn Games of sorts years ago and Cuchullainn did famously swing a caman.
Try as you and the DUP trolls might, there is a vibrant Irish tradition alive and well, most noticably in the GAA.
Dev and rugby: Amazing what one can learn.
Stewart1
Did you not understand this part of the post?
Aside: I know this topic will present an almost irresistable temptation for some but please don’t go down the ‘whatabout’ road. Deal with this and if you want a mirror topic on any other organisation/s feel free to write up a draft and email it
Why don’t you go and take his advice, I’m sure Mark will help you out with the mechanics.
The problem for the Catholics in NI is that in addition to renouncing their former right to self-determination in its entirety, they subjected the lingering remnants of their national identity, ethos, culture, ect, to the veto of another nation that defines itself by not being Irish. Everything that is identified as Irish is repugnant to them, from music to sport since the Irish have in turn defined themselves by not being British.
While before the Catholics in NI were hoodwinked into signing their own cultural death warrant, unionists they would have used labels such as ‘Ulsterman’, ‘British’, ‘Northern Irish’, ‘The Protestant People’, ‘Ulster Scots’, etc, in preference to the label of Irish, some of them now choose to use it not as a means of embracing Irish culture or promoting Irish national rights but as a means of censoring same.
Irish in this sense means British, with the explicit claim that the Irish nation has no national rights that would entitle it to be a sovereign nation. As far as unionists are concerned (and the Catholics in NI have now constitutionally agreed with them), it is only British nationals in NI that have national rights, and it is only this nation that is therefore entitled to a sovereign state. While they generally despise all that is Irish, they are prepared to defile themselves with the label of Irish if that pose can be used to hoodwink the Catholics into thinking that is it right for them to remain as a non-sovereign nation, thinking that all that is Irish can be duly censored and, if not replaced by all that is British, can be left to wither and die within the British state where British culture will replace without direction.
Article 1 of Bunreacht na hÉireann declares: “The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.” So self-determination is not self-determination if it no longer determined by self (the Irish nation), but subject to the veto of a foreign nation. That’s why that foreign nation now tries to pose as the Irish nation. Of course, if it was part of the Irish nation then it would be loyal to that nation and promote its interests through a sovereign Irish state. The nation and state that unionist are actually loyal to and actually belongs to is the British nation.
Article 1 of the UN’s ICCPR and ICESCR declares: “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”
The Irish nation in NI cannot, of course, “freely determine their political status” or “freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.” In all of those things they are subjected to the veto of a foreign nation and its state. An example of “cultural development” among a sovereign nation would be promoting the Irish language through their sovereign state. The Irish nation cannot use the state wherein it resides for that purpose since it is a foreign state, and it must duly beg that foreign state for such support for its “cultural development”.
Still, that is what they all signed up to. The priority for Ireland must be to ensure that the veto is not further extended into the Irish state. Given that, as it stands, the Irish state no longer has the authority to promote its “cultural development” though its national language since the agency that promotes that language is now subject to the veto of the British state via the NSMC and a treaty signed between the two states. De Valera must be spinning in his grave that the Irish were hoodwinked by quislings and their own ignorance of such matters to give that sovereignty away…
‘However what is indefensible for the GAA – and something they should be rightly critised for – is any flirting or association with militant republican organistions’
John
Did the IFA take any action against Glentoran when they decided to hold a minute’s silence for the leader of the political wing of the UVF, a few years back. ?
“The GAA are also supposed to encourage Irish cultural expressions such as music. How come there weren’t too many GAA supporters out at Ardoyne not merely tolerating their Irish brethern of an orange hue but actually promoting this particularly Irish form of music.”
The GAA do promote bands – except they confine their marching to GAA stadiums.
Have you ever watched a GAA match and the entertainment before it? For instance, a band from Enniskillen lead the parade at the Tipperary v Waterford hurling semi final this year. The All Ireland final usually goes to the Artane Band though.
While true blue unionists or others of such ilk may find it intellectually satisfying for individuals or some people acting collectively, to prattle pseudo ‘nationalist’ views as a poser poster, the fact that these are in the main ignored and uncommented on, do not mean that they are not seen by nationalists and republicans for what they really are.
Too pathetic to be an insult to any person of average intelligence, if anything such activity amply demonstrates the intellectual poverty of any real argument that could be advanced overtly, honestly and openly to advance certain unionist agenda !
Turnpike
Remarks not adressed to you !
And what is “the national identity”?
SK
Red herring. I don’t think anyone’s talking about whether being organised on a Northern Ireland or all-Ireland basis is the issue.
Criminalisation of a language? Discriminatory measures against an ethnic group? Conquest of the north of Ireland?
That does sure sound familiar…
It is a red herring yes.
I was very reluctantly criticising anything – if at all. I dont agree with the comparison but I suppose…
Yes the IFA represents Northern Ireland and yes I suppose someone playing for them could very loosely be argued to somehow be giving passing ‘support’ to the border but no more so than any other element of their lives – if you pay tax, work, use money, go to hospital or the doctor, call the police/ambulance/fire brigade or if you vote – even for Sinn Fein you are giving the same passing support.
But then the border is legitimate, internationally recognised and the principle of consent ensures that it is not being forced on anyone – a referendum can be called anytime.
I really dislike these arguments and so unfortunately slugger too most of the time as a result. For me its not really about the border or Irish identity, I set those to the side and looked simply at whether or not ANY organisation should have a rule which excludes others on the basis of their politics – for me it is ‘yes they should be allowed’ but no they shouldn’t actually do it.
Strategically the rule as far as I can see really brings nothing to the GAA at all. They could remove the rule and be as open and inclusive as possible and also as immune to criticism as possible – they can still advocate the use of Irish goods by the clubs etc etc and as individuals they will culturally be the same and hold the same beliefs but they might be more inclusive and have more Unionists/Protestants as members and players of sports which are very enjoyable and great spectacles (sorry personal opinion snuck in there)
If I was a Republican I would certainly be advocating the rule should go the same way as the foreign sports rule and that more Unionists should play the sports and be convinced by my fictitious republicanism…but since I am a Unionist and not a Republican strategist – I should keep my mouth shut.
“I’m sorry if it wasn’t clear enough for you.
De Valera revived the Tailteann Games (announced 1921, held in 1924) ably assisted by J.J. Walsh.”
Turnpike – my point is that the GAA was not founded by a group of Anglo-Irish people searching for an identity. Parnell became a Patron of the GAA after it was founded.
As for JJ Walsh – the chairman of the Cork County board is only as important as the chairman of the other 31 county boards. In fact it would seem that the GAA were none too pleased with the way the Irish Gov hijacked the Tailteann Games in 1924 (which was a great success as athletes involved in the Olympics in Paris made their way to Ireland for the Games).
I wonder was it the Tailteann Games that inspired the British Gov. to hold the Commonwealth Games in 1929. LOL.
Alan Maskey
Dev went to school in Blackrock College so would have learned to play rugby there. It was when he was a teacher in Rockwell College that he played a few games for Munster. Apparently he didn’t have much time for gaelic football and thought that the two national sports of Ireland should have been hurling & rugby. (So much for Dev’s influence on the GAA!). I think the DUP may have met their match here.
Alia’s logic, his incessant repetition of a key number of phrases and words, does have its own rock solid logic. The process he charts has been going on since at least the time of the Language Freedom Movement and the BICO types.
Over a hundred years ago, such forces as the Gaelic League, the GAA, the Abbey Theatre crowd, the ITGWU, swathes of the Catholic Church were hugely progressive forces.
The British wedge Alias draws attention to has subverted some of the progressive forces and tries to confuse and befuddle others.
The DUP and all they represent are part of what Connolly called the carnival of reaction. Thankfully, they will never best the GAA. Though the GAA was more silent than it should have been about the occupation of Crossmageln Ranbgers and Casement Park and the deliberate assassination of its members in Bellaghy and elsewhere [removed by Moderator], hopefully, in this new era, they will be able to slap down the DUP trolls.
Let;s hope NI enjoys its Commonwealth Games gains. NO doubt the best of ther boxers wil lbe representing their tru country in 2 years’ time.
“…[quoted content was removed by Moderator]…”
I’m no fan of the DUP, but why is this nonsense permitted on Slugger?
“Over a hundred years ago, such forces as the Gaelic League, the GAA, the Abbey Theatre crowd, the ITGWU, swathes of the Catholic Church were hugely progressive forces.”
Ummm… About as progressive as De Velara’s “comely maidens dancing at the crossroads”;
All the above were/are backward-looking, atavistic, agrarian, parochial, isolationist, obsessed with Celtic spirituality, nostalgia for Gaelic Ireland (incidentally which never existed), and anti-modern traditionalism.
Football, Rugby, most of the sports in the Commonwealth Games belong to the world, or a good part of it, nobody is excluded by quasi-political constitutions. Hurling is played by a handful of counties; Gaelic football is played/followed by the rural fringes (who have very little choice) and ‘nationalist’ Northern Ireland – these ‘sports’ are withering on the vine. Along with the dominance of the Catholic Church and the fortunes of Fianna Fail, the stain that is the GAA is fading.