“And this is not going away.”

Somewhat under-reported, as far as I can tell, was the following exchange between Will Crawley and Denis Bradley on Talkback yesterday. [approx 28 mins in]

Will Crawley:  “But we now have some people, including unionist politicans, saying how can we really seriously and credibly talk about a truth recovery process in dealing with the past when people can simply appeal to memory loss about what happened and their involvement in the past?”

Denis Bradley:  “Well that’s probably an observation worth exploring, but, I mean…”

Will Crawley: “Well explore it for us.”

Denis Bradley:  “Well.  The DUP is split right down the middle, as far as I can observe, on this issue.  I mean I have had two situations recently, and I may have got this wrong and I apologise if I got it wrong.  But it appeared to me that Ian Paisley Jnr went to west Belfast during the summer and said, ‘just put the past behind us and get on with the future’.

“Now that’s completely different to what some of the other leadership in the DUP are saying.

“On the other hand you have Sinn Féin running around the place talking about an international tribunal, [an] international independent truth commission.

“Now, first of all, they’re told truth commissions are very difficult and they’re very… they’re not really the stuff [of] which our culture lives and survives and has its being.

“On the other hand are they talking about this international independent [commission] being set up by the United Nations?  Fair enough, except the United Nations doesn’t do this type of stuff.

“So who’s going to set it up, and who’s going to be independent, and who’s going to pay for it?

“Because if the British pay for it then it’s contaminated, accordingly.

And the truth of the matter is that the relatives on the republican side know this.  And they’re now beginning to get sceptical about Sinn Féin’s stance on this because they know that Sinn Féin are, perhaps, not wanting this to happen as much as they appear to say even though they’re singing off the same hymn sheet. [added emphasis]

“On the other hand the great majority of people just want… are bored with it.

“And in the fourth dimension of this, it’s not going away.

“Last week we had Graham’s bookmakers.  We had the accusation, in fact, not the accusation.  The HET reported that a gun was used and then was tampered with by the RUC in such a fashion and was given back to the UDA and then new murders happened.

“This week we had Claudy.  Week before that, or the month before that we had Saville.  Next week we will have something else.

“And this is not going away.

“And the Ombudsman said it will take 50 years to deal with this if we don’t find a better method of dealing with it.

“So I think that it’s all in the Consultative Group on the Past document.  It’s all there.  All these issues are confronted.  All these issues are addressed.

“What people need to do, what the politicians need to do, is to have a bit of courage.  Is to have a bit of facing up to this issue.  Come to a situation whereby they can say – ‘Well this is probably the way to deal with it and let’s get on with it’.  [added emphasis]

“And in that document it says ‘let’s take a five year stint at this, let’s do it over [a] five year period’. 

“Because it is not right to keep re-examining the past over and over and over again.  But it is right to do it in a way that is ethical, that is the best you can deliver to as many people as possible.”

, , , , , ,

  • joeCanuck

    In South Africa, there was an incentive to tell the truth. If you confess you will be forgiven; don’t confess and get found out and we will attempt to put you away somewhere you won’t like.
    I think we have already forgiven, at least we have given an amnesty of sorts, for offences committed prior to the GFA. No incentive!

  • Greenflag

    The French and Germans were at war in 1918 and in 1945 with a 20 year interim period .Both countries lost millions of soldiers and civilians . Five years after the end of WW11 both France and Germany were planning a new future for Europe .

    Northern Irelands ‘tribes’ have been at ‘war’ call it whatever you want for 30 years (1968-1998) and 12 years later they’re still playing the game of facing up to the issue and playing local politics over the dead in graves who are not coming back .

    It’s time to leave the past to the historians and for the current crop of politicians to deal with the economic and social problems of those currently living in NI.

    Move along and all that. Forgive and try to forget . Holding on to hatred is not conducive to personal health -quite the opposite in fact .

    If as much energy and effort was put into planning and preparing for the economic and political future in Northern Ireland as compared to digging up the past there might be a chance of breaking the necropolitical (the politics of the dead 🙁 ) cycle.

  • Christy Walsh

    Digging up the past to you but for many they are trying to find closure?

  • joeCanuck

    Exactly, Greenflag. Anger, even hatred, are completely normal human emotions. But to hold on to them for an extended period can be self destructive.

  • joeCanuck

    Christy,
    I don’t belive there is ever closure. Just an acceptance, slowly at times, that you have to accept what you can’t change and to move on.
    Not talking about your situation which is still ongoing.

  • Munsterview

    Back to the Dublin / Monaghan bombings….. it is generally accepted that the British State, their agents and servants were responsible.

    Mr justice Baron who presided over the tribunal, having examined such intelligence as the Irish State forces see fit make available on the issue regarding the principle suspects, requested certain assistance and documents from the British authorities.

    These requests were processed through the normal diplomatic channels from the Irish Government to the British Government. The result….. they were told to ‘get stuffed’ in diplomatic language of course.

    These are two events that could be immediately resolved as they involve two Independent Governments, yet other than expressions of regret from senior Irish Government sources at the attitude of the British Government, nothing was done or well be.

    One sovereign Government bombed two cities under the control of the other and far from demanding answers the irish state has advanced plans to welcome the head of the state that carried out those wanton mass murders as an honored guest.

    Our own Presidents near relatives suffered at the hands of these British State Gangs in a most appalling way yet far from demanding answers, some of the nominal heads of these pseudo gangs have been honored guests of the President and the State in Dublin.

    Britain was expelled from dozens of ex- Colonial countries in a process that involved a series of brutal, nasty horrific killings committed by British ‘peacekeepers’

    Can anybody point me to any enquiry from any of these post conflict situations where the totality of the conflict and the causes of it were examined with British Co-Operation?

    Why do anyone think that we can have an enquiry here and closure in a live and ongoing conflict situation, given the other International experiences of British ‘peacekeeping’ and the subsequent cove ups?

    When Fianna Fail republicans got into Southern government in 1932, they got on with government without any examinations of what occurred in 22..23. One of those IRA volunteers that survived the massacre at Ballyseedy Cross where the Free State dynamited prisoners ( the surviver woke up naked dozens of yards away with a comrades severed arm tied to his wrist)’ went on to become a Fianna Failure TD that spend a lifetime in the Dail.

    Neither he or Fianna Failure made any attempt to change the perjured ‘evidence’ read into the Dail record ten years before. Martin Ferris is now is now a TD for the same area. Goodness knows how many commemorations Martin has presided over at that same monument where he castigated the actions of Free State armed forces at Ballyseedy Cross.

    Has martin once attempted to correct Free State lies in the Dail Record and give the truth of how these brave soldiers of the Republic and republican prisoners of war died ? Why not.

    I am not just singling out Martin here I hasten to add, I am merly using this event and person to illustrate a point.

    Just like so many events of war deaths in the South were forgotten and ignored no matter how horrific and awful, except for the ongoing pain for the individuals involved and their relatives, so also the catalogue of events in the North.

    They may be some tinkering around the edges, there may be even a Claudy enquiry in time but State files will remain closed, it will be more of soldier ‘A’ and soldier ‘B’ type of stuff with none of the real reasons for these events, the decisions of the ‘Sir Humperies’ and the Government ministers of the day examined.

    These processes are not about revelations, they are about State cover up and damage limitation.

    If a simple thing like correcting the Dail Record was not done and was not a pressing matter for even a surviver of a massacre where coffins were filled with shovels and bodies were so mangled that this IRA and TD man blown clear was not missed, what chance for truth ?

  • Truth and reconciliation sound good and it did some good in South Africa. Here it is a completely different situation, which truth does anyone believe, there will be at least four different ‘truths’.

    Ireland and Britain need to start thinking about amnesty.

  • Christy Walsh

    I appreciate what you are saying –and not just for me personally but closure might just be no more than finding acceptible terms to allow a person or a family to feel a sense that they did the right thing and did not just give in and forget. I can’t be easy for many people and the issue is not an easy one fit for all –for some families who had found a way to live with grief can find that they are harshly jolted into the nightmare all over again if some new discovery is made –just like recent disclosure that the RUC had given guns back to loyalist paramilitaries –how can people come to terms with learning shattering news like that? There is no text book for them to know what to do other than do what they feel is the right thing for their lost loved one. I don’t know the answer but I do not like blanket calls for people to just bury the past.

  • Christy Walsh

    Joe while it can be true that some people harbour bitterness and hatred but that may not be the driving force for others. On this one I can speak personally –although I fight on I believe it is proper to do so –the complexity of my fight has included my meeting with the main paratrooper agianst me and have shaken hands with him –more recently I have been an unlikely defender of the RUC. But I have still to clear my name officially since a civil servant at the NIO has determined that I am still guilty while the Court could not.

  • Reader

    Munsterview: Back to the Dublin / Monaghan bombings….. it is generally accepted that the British State, their agents and servants were responsible.
    No it isn’t. You mentioned the Barron report, but you didn’t quote it:
    “However, the material assessed by the Inquiry is insufficient to suggest that senior members of the security forces in Northern Ireland were in any way involved in the bombings.” and “There is no evidence that any branch of the security forces knew in advance the bombings were about to take place”.
    That’s a long, long way from your claim: “One sovereign Government bombed two cities under the control of the other”

  • Granni Trixie

    I may be wrong but wasn’t the resources in SF for a TRC for one year only? That, and because their history was not contested as in NI are reasons not to keep bringing a SF model into the equation.

  • Granni Trixie

    If there has to be a TRC for the north. You bet your mortgage SF better be in it. No hiding place.

  • joeCanuck

    Yes, Pippakin.

    But they have already essentially called for a one-sided or half “truth”.
    Same with an amnesty; they want it, especially for the on-the-runs, but are adamantly against it for the State murderers.

  • joe

    I am against a TRC and for an amnesty. But if there has to be a TRC it has to be all of the truth, not whichever bit one side or other finds acceptable.

  • joeCanuck

    Pippakin,

    I could go along with that.
    But SF talk out of both sides of their mouths. If they were anyway serious, a great start would be for G.Adams to call a press briefing and to stand up and say “I lied, I was not just in the IRA, I was a leader”.

  • joe

    Completely agree. But to be fair to SF they would not be the only ones.

    As for Gerry Adams. If there is anyone left daft enough to take his word – serve em right. Fool me once, etc..

  • A,N.Other

    To continue to live in the past is to create a cult of victimisation that is autistic and self-indulgent.

    Events of recent times reveal how the dissidents are incapable of distinguishing between the political conjuncture of 2010 from that of the 1970s; their campaign is justified by an absorbtion in the past. It is time the rest of us simply moved on.

  • Brian Walker

    I ‘ve long suspected the real position DUP and SF is to wrap the past up as deftly as possible, but their default position is the reverse, to keep it going in case the other side wins a major ” victory” in an inquiry or major report. It’s the old zero sum game at work again, SF I suspect would prefer for matters not to be pressed too hard as they have a lot to lose Both sides are caught in tbeir own trap.. Despite the devolution of J&P, the governments will have to bail them out somehow. “Dealing with the Past ” is out of control.
    I’m interested to see that some above are calling for an amnesty. A formal amnesty may be against the ECHR but a statute of limitations to recognise the status quo might be possible linked unconditionally to an attempt at truth recvovery and detailed reports from the HET. Then at least we would all see what’s left to uncover and whether it can be uncovered.

  • Cynic

    “Because if the British pay for it then it’s contaminated, accordingly”

    So lets have the Executive fund it. About £200 a year off benefits should do it.

  • HeinzGuderian

    Fully agree with that Joe………….but if we were to leave the past behind,what would our nat/rep friends have to whinge about ?

    ‘aye,but 1916………………’ NO !!
    ‘aye,but the famine….’ NO !!
    ‘aye,but what about 800 years……’ NO!!
    ‘aye,but………….

    You get my drift ?

    Be a bit like the treaty the USA made with the Native Americans…..”everything west of the Mississippi was ‘Indian’ land.” That lasted for a full Five minutes !!

  • Mr Crumlin

    I cant disagree with anything Mr Bradley says. SF and DUP using ‘their’ victims should come as a surprise to no-one. Its time for our political leaders to grow a set around this issue.

    Lets have an amnesty – theres a de facto one anyway. Thats also what ‘drawing a line in the sand’ means, as does ‘stop dragging up the past’. No? Then if not an amnesty what?

  • Blair

    “Back to the Dublin / Monaghan bombings….. it is generally accepted that the British State, their agents and servants were responsible.”

    Munster,

    Is it indeed? By whom?

  • Munsterview

    Yes, factual in so far as it goes!

    However since specific documents and lines of enquiry were not respond to by the British Government, the enquiry was not in a position to bring in any other findings other than it did from the limited material at its disposal.

    The fiction was also maintained that Loyalists or British Government agents were not involved in the Miami Show band massacre of the same vintage yet the the truth is out on that one, or as much or it as we are likely to get.

    A month ago or even last week, I would have engaged in a ….Oh yes they did…..Oh no they did not exchange, but I do not see the point of it. As these two threads of Fr James have shown, these exchanges are not about exploring issues, they are about advancing and maintaining agendas.

    I have a view on both bombings formed not alone from dialogue in republican circles but from discussions with politicians, government ministers, reporters, political commentators and senior Irish Army officers. Same applies to more than a few decent types across the water who have no doubts as to what happened. However here there opinion per se has the same standing as informed openion !

    I do very little postings, just six or seven sites in all, but one main difference once something is discussed out, new positions are taken up on these issues…… on slugger the same attidutes are paraded thread after thread, unchangied and unchanging!

  • Munsterview

    Yes, factual in so far as it goes!

    However since specific documents and lines of enquiry were not respond to by the British Government, the enquiry was not in a position to bring in any other findings other than it did from the limited material at its disposal.

    The fiction was also maintained that Loyalists or British Government agents were not involved in the Miami Show band massacre of the same vintage yet the the truth is out on that one, or as much or it as we are likely to get.

    A month ago or even last week, I would have engaged in a ….Oh yes they did…..Oh no they did not exchange, but I do not see the point of it. As these two threads of Fr James have shown, these exchanges are not about exploring issues, they are about advancing and maintaining agendas.

    I have a view on both Dublin and Monaghan bombings formed not alone from dialogue in republican circles but from discussions with politicians, government ministers, reporters, political commentators and senior Irish Army officers.

    Same applies to more than a few decent types across the water who have no doubts as to what happened.

    However here opinion per se has the same standing as informed openion and even where a poster is caught out and exposed in a blatant deceit, their views still are eagerly embraced on the next thread if it suits the agenda.

    I do very little postings, just six or seven sites in all, but one main difference once something is discussed out in these other sites, new positions are taken up on these issues…… and everybody moves on. Here in slugger the thread subjects change but the same attidutes are paraded thread after thread, unchanged and unchanging!

    So this time round, points noted and no argument!

  • Count Eric Bisto von Granules

    There is a problem before we get to a TRC. There has to be an acceptance of what 1968 – 1998 actually was. You’ve got hypocrisy on both sides.

    Sinn Fein want it to be seen as a war yet complain when ASU’s were shot and killed by the British army.

    The unionists want it to seen as a civil / police action but insist that involvement of the british army and their description of it as a war is not valid. For them to call it a war means legitimising nationalist claims that there was a genuine grievance and that physical force was the only route remaining. However, unionists were happy to call for civil measures that are normally only imposed in times of war

    Until this is decided you willhave both sides cherry picking the best aspects that suits their “poor us” agenda.

    Personally, I favour calling it a war if only so both sides can say they got a bloody nose, stand up, shake hands and move on. As has been pointed out, the northern “thing” was a pissy drawn out event which doesnt even register in european terms. There french and the germans had proper arguments and worked together in the aftermath

  • Alan Maskey

    Sinn Fein are trying to rewrite history for their own ends. Some years ago, they were trying to erect monuments in Cork and Wexford and every nook and cranny to honour the hunger strikers, their various bank robbers, kidnappers and so on. Theirs is a ghetto mentality. They want to brand the entire country with their back street Ballymurphy ugliness.
    The past, of course, was no different. It is instructive to watch the movie version of The Informer, the Quiet Man or other Hollywood fare from the past. The IRA are always clean cut nice chaps, never vulgar little characters shooting grannies in the back.
    The ringleaders – Adams, McGuinness, Kerr, the Paisleys – should be held to account for their grubby crimes. Grubby people are not fit to lead.
    Anything else says it was the Charlie Armstrongs and Jean McConvilles who are guilty.
    Let’s not forget Shergar. The world’s finest horse machine gunned to death by work shy IRA scum bags on the words of an ex bookie clerk low life from Dungannon. These people are not fit to clean stables.
    During the 1940s, the IRA executued several Special branchmen. I was with some PIRA heroes quite a few years ago when they glanced through the obituaries pages of the Irish Indo. There was an in memorium inserted by their relatives for the Branchmen. It said: “Murdered by cowards”.
    The PIRAs said: Are they still going on about that?
    That is what hitman Brian Meehan said about Veronica Guerin. We murdered her a month ago. Move on. Get closure. We vare the victims.
    And of course, PIRAs like to commemorate everyone and anyone who ever raped or robbed for Ireland at the drop of a hat.
    PIRA in all its manifestations is a liability. Put them in sackcloth and ashes . Make them atone instead of portraying thesmelves as victims. Then closure can begin.

  • Ranger1640

    Sinn Fein say they want an international TRC, in the full knowledge that it won’t happen. It make them look like peace-nicks and the auld enemy the nasty British the people paying the Shinners wages are saying no. I’m sure this is playing well especially in America, and the rest of the world.

    Just like decommissioning Sinn Fein will be dancing on pin heads to define the detail. During this time more and more of the main protagonists will be going the way of Brendan Hughes

  • Alan Maskey

    There is much in what you say, but everyone does need to move on. It serves no real purpose to keep regurgitating past atrocities. All SF have are followers in their northern ghettos when the island is united their true insignificance will be there for all to see.

    If one or two manage to hang on in a UI then so be it, everyone needs closure.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    What’s needed most of all to help us all understand the Troubles is going on already: diverse, well-researched historical research and writing by a range of historians with different perspectives and opinions. Historians are better able to reveal these kind of truths than anyone. No one historian has the full picture of course, but our best way of getting to the truth is to read widely among the many published works.

    To the extent we need some kind of public oversight of the work of historians, there could perhaps be an overarching cross-community body that identifies important areas that have been under-explored and offers funding to researchers to explore and write about them. This body would not decide upon the truth and historians would not be answerable to it, but it could help ensure people feel that the story of the Troubles is being told in good detail and clarity from all perspectives, for us all to then make up our own minds.

    As for outing the secrets of the past, of course anything hidden that isn’t a threat to national security should be revealed by all sides. But given that Republicans are unlikely ever to be honest with the public about what they did, the State doing it alone would only increase the unfair imbalance in the available facts there is at the moment. So I think the revealing of information about counter-terrorism operations should be linked to the revealing by terrorists of their operations. Allowance should also be made for the fact that the State has to continue with counter-terrorist policing for the foreseeable future, so will be limited in what it can safely divulge about resources, tactics and strategy. The IRA, being finished, ought to be able to reveal everything.

  • Granni Trixie

    MU: I have no such faith in historians to do a professional job of documenting the troubles. I have found that many academics in various disciplines twist material to fit to their original analysis ie not following the evidence where it exists which is good practice. (could name names here but probably better not to for legal reasons).

  • And some would be ‘historians’ on Slugger demonstrate how one sided ‘history’ can be.

    The truth is never single faceted. For peace to last everyone needs to understand that.

  • billy

    One thing’s for certain, whatever transpires the lonely rantings of the ever diminishing pool of nobodies here on Slugger will have had absolutely no influence in shaping it.

  • socaire

    That’s one way to deal with it – pretend it never happened?

  • socaire

    Nobody does more regurgitating than you. Why don’t you put yourself up for election as a new radical alternative to these ‘scumbags’ and we’ll see what the people think? Keyboard bile with the innuendo of ‘I know things’ becomes tiresome after a while.

  • socaire

    Yourself included?

  • Greenflag

    christy walsh ,

    ‘But I have still to clear my name officially since a civil servant at the NIO has determined that I am still guilty while the Court could not.’

    Sometimes the left hand of ‘justice’ does not know nor care what the right hand is doing or even has done . The scale is not always balanced .

    I was commenting in general terms . As for the RUC giving guns back to loyalist paramilitaries being shattering news ? I would not think so . While the majority of RUC police were ‘law abiding some were’nt . Thats why there is now a PSNI.

  • billy

    Soc, I’m under no illusions as to the utter irrelevance of this site. That it has provided a refuge for the TalkBack message board dregs like Heinz says it all.

  • billy

    Oh God, she’s reaching for her acoustic guitar…

  • Greenflag

    BW,

    Very true . A statute of limitations might work . Some of the ‘truth’ will never be recovered as is true of all conflicts.

    I’m reminded of the Soviet era joke

    Question :
    ‘Will there be another world war ‘

    Answer :

    ‘No but there’ll be such a struggle for peace that you’ll have the same result ‘

  • billy

    Get used to it, Soc.

    Didn’t you know this was the sounding board for the politically impotent and utterly irrelevant?

    They had a ‘campaign’ against Adams a while back, They though they were going to finish his career.

    I’m still laughing at the vastness of their failure and irrelevance.

  • Alan Maskey

    Billy: Uneducated trolls of your low calibre certainly do not help.
    The calls being made here are being made by Margaret Ritchie and Unionist leaders so no, they will not go away.

    Historians are not the people to do it. They rely on primary sources. The only major etant primary PIRA sources are human beings and, as SDLP and other leaders have said, they must coome clean. Until they do, the merry go round will continue.

    The RUC could help a lot by decommissioning a lot of its files. Put them into the open arena via the FBI or whoever. That would put it up the Provos.

  • socaire

    There y’are, billy – uneducated troll – hoho. And that’s fact cos Alex says so and he knows, ya know.

  • socaire

    Had to smile about the acoustic guitar.

  • Paul Malloy

    Tiresome is a bit of an understatement.

  • slappymcgroundout

    “The calls being made here are being made by Margaret Ritchie and Unionist leaders so no, they will not go away.”

    Indeed, a regular rogues gallery. Margaret finds herself in some illustrious company:

    DUP MP Gregory Campbell
    Sir Reg Empey
    TUV leader Jim Allister
    Victims campaigner Willie Frazer

    I mean, you are referring to that piece in the 10 Sept edition of that rag known as the Newsletter, yes? The breakdown is: stoop (in our land, in former times, make it, house nigger, as opposed to field nigger (that would be Sinn Fein)), bigot, airhead, bigot, bigot. As I said, that’s some illustrious company she’s in. And by the way, none of this has to do with her saving her party from going down the drain that she and her party are now circling? And so maybe it isn’t about “justice” but instead, using the pain of survivors and the corpses of dead folk to get votes. Outstanding. She and the others might otherwise try reading the Agreement. It’s forward and not backwards looking:

    DECLARATION OF SUPPORT
    ***
    2. The tragedies of the past have left a deep and profoundly regrettable legacy of suffering. We must never forget those who have died or been injured, and their families. But we can best honour them through a fresh start, in which we firmly dedicate ourselves to the achievement of reconciliation, tolerance, and mutual trust, and to the protection and vindication of the human rights of all.
    ***
    Reconciliation and Victims of Violence

    11. The participants believe that it is essential to acknowledge and address the suffering of the victims of violence as a necessary element of reconciliation. They look forward to the results of the work of the Northern Ireland Victims Commission.

    12. It is recognised that victims have a right to remember as well as to contribute to a changed society. The achievement of a peaceful and just society would be the true memorial to the victims of violence. The participants particularly recognise that young people from areas affected by the troubles face particular difficulties and will support the development of special community-based initiatives based on international best practice. The provision of services that are supportive and sensitive to the needs of victims will also be a critical element and that support will need to be channelled through both statutory and community-based voluntary organisations facilitating locally-based self-help and support networks. This will require the allocation of sufficient resources, including statutory funding as necessary, to meet the needs of victims and to provide for community-based support programmes.

    13. The participants recognise and value the work being done by many organisations to develop reconciliation and mutual understanding and respect between and within communities and traditions, in Northern Ireland and between North and South, and they see such work as having a vital role in consolidating peace and political agreement. Accordingly, they pledge their continuing support to such organisations and will positively examine the case for enhanced financial assistance for the work of reconciliation. An essential aspect of the reconciliation process is the promotion of a culture of tolerance at every level of society, including initiatives to facilitate and encourage integrated education and mixed housing.

    Nothing at all in there about the “truth”. The reconciliation is all about fresh start, with the building of a peaceful and just society to serve as the honor and memorial of the victims of the conflict. In the meantime, the suffering of the victims is to be addressed by providing for their necessary support and making the circumstance such that they too can share in the fresh start that builds the just and peaceful society. Seems to me that Margaret, Gregory, Sir Reg, Jim and Willie aren’t focusing much on that, certainly not to the extent that they are looking backward and not forward. Now, to give credit to someone who knows the score, or if one prefers, the Agreement:

    The Democratic Unionist board member Jonathan Bell said: “The right to life, currently, and in the future – is it being affected by the amount of police resources going into policing and looking at the human rights aspects of the past?”

    Word is that the cost of the HET is 12 mil pounds per year. Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie would prefer that such money be spent on policing in the here and now. Seems reasonable to me, though if I had a vote, I’d say figure out how much could be saved by shutting the thing down, take that money, divide it by the number of qualified surviving victims, and then distribute the money on a per capita basis. And also continue to provide the needed services (i.e., don’t use the payout as an excuse to not provide the services that ought to be provided in the absence of the payout). Maybe some could improve their lives, send the kid or the grandkid to university, you know, things like that.

  • socaire!

    You have found a firend. Two little sheep together. How nice…

  • sociare!

    So did I…So much better than a fiddle.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Alan,
    “The only major etant primary PIRA sources are human beings and, as SDLP and other leaders have said, they must coome clean. Until they do, the merry go round will continue.”

    Agreed, but I feel realistically, it takes a lot of professional skill to get the truth out of people. This shouldn’t just be about “letting people tell their story” – it should be about evaluating the truth. Their story is only one piece of evidence. You need an intelligent interviewer and analyst who notices what is left unsaid, can probe and follow up on partial answers and have a sharp radar for the half-truths and evasions people might be used to getting away with. I think this is better done in private interviews than some public forum.

    If this is what a TRC did, and staffed it with for example, historians, lawyers, social scientists and psychologists, you might have a chance of getting something genuinely truthful and interesting out of it. Though please get a decent journalist to write it up, a lot of the aforementioned can’t write for toffee.

  • billy

    lol

    raving now

  • socaire

    Sorry, I meant Alan! How could I have made that blunder?

  • Purplepolly

    What continues to amaze me is the lack of interest and criticism of the Commissioners for Victim’s and Survivors. (Now) three political appointees being paid a fortune (£65k) each and still not a sensible word from them on how to begin to address the V&S needs about dealing with the past. And government (neither of the main parties) seems to care that they are useless and being excluded or overlooked from the albeit limited public discussion on it all.

  • Freudian

  • Munsterview

    Pesky…….12 September 2010 at 9:18 am

    Sinn Fein are trying to rewrite history for their own ends etc……

    Grubby people are not fit to lead…….

    Let’s not forget Shergar……

    And of course, PIRAs like to commemorate everyone and anyone who ever raped or robbed for Ireland at the drop of a hat……

    PIRA in all its manifestations is a liability. Put them in sackcloth and ashes ……

    Make them atone instead of portraying themselves as victims. Then closure can begin…… ect
    ****************

    The foregoing abstracts give a flavor of the whole. Just for the benefit of other posters who may be ticking off a few boxes here, a brief comment.

    First one of the bombings in London where a number of Army horses were either killed or had to be put down, I was publicly accosted in a Munster town by one of the Anglos who had a go at me regarding the bombing…… ” I can understand the soldiers, that is what they signed up for, but bloody hell all those fine horses, why did you have to attack them…. and some of them were probably Irish” !

    That is fact……… she was more concerned about the loss of the horses than the soldiers ! I refer to it here as it is illustrative of a mind set.

    In relation to republicans moving from prison cell to cabinet seat, there is no mental adjustment to be made, one of my Grandfathers cousins was out in the Fenian Rising, he was IRB Head Centre of his town and years later having done his jail time he sat in the Commons for almost a decade as an MP…. while still an IRB man.

    In the nineteen eighteen election the slogan for many prisoners was …” put them in to get them out ” ! ( Elect the political prisoners to parliament to get them out of jail ) On this side of the divide, no great problem with that concept, it is an intrinsic and instinctive of nationalist and republican culture !

    Inside Roman Catholic culture sin, forgiveness and penance follow a certain ritual that is farmilar to all catholics and all catholics, lapsed or otherwise would be farmilar with this process.

    Because the emphasis for Catholics is on the act of forgiveness in the sacrament according to their belief system, penance is secondary and forgiveness immediate !

    In these circumstances no Cleric or anyone farmilar with the concept of Roman Catholic Theology would expect any ex sinner of any sort to go through a ‘ sackcloth and ashes’ public humiliation before they can be rehabilitated….. in fact the concept is so alien that I cannot ever recall any Catholic Cleric in any period demanding it.

    On the other hand this ‘sack class and ashes’ is so central to protestant theology that hardly a politician can express themselves without reference to it in relation to what they perceive as ‘sinners’

    So…. shegar and sackcloth and ashes…… and an ignorance of republican writers earlier, as uncle Albert said it is the little things that trip you up !

  • Alan Maskey

    Anotrher diatribe from O’Donovan Rossa about his ancestors. Some of these cracked me up.

    Shergar was a pedigree horse: His kidnapping and machine gunning by a bunch of savages and the subsequent damage to the stud industry, one of Ireland’s most important, exemplified the negative nature of this band of morons.

    Sack cloth: The Pope got an Emperor to do it. Catholics are supposed to make honest atonement and restitution before they are truly forgiven.
    Some clowns never read (or were not able to read) their penny cathechisms.
    MAKE RESTITUTION
    ::::::::::::::::

    Slappy: I take your points.; However, it is all in interpretation. Cardinal Richeliu to stay with the Micks, said give me five lines written by the world’s most honest man and i will find somethign there to hang him.
    The skeletons in the PSF’s cupboard would sink any real political party. nd, to use the cliche, they hafven’t gone away you know.
    Kevin Myers, who will have fun with the Bic McFarlane ruling, bored a nation with our glorious dead in the Great war. But he won out in the end.
    PSF wil continue to get the Northern RC vote and will probably wipe out the SDLP. They will do well in border areas but they will never be a real force. Plaid Cymmru are probalby more important.
    The jackasses who come on defending it – from the Celtic tops to the certificiable Hibernophiles do it no favours in the eyes of the Prods who don’t seem to come into the abacus except as a force to vanquish.

  • Alias

    “…I’d say figure out how much could be saved by shutting the thing down, take that money, divide it by the number of qualified surviving victims, and then distribute the money on a per capita basis.”

    And if your daughter was gang-raped in the good old US of A, would you rather that the state let her rapists go free and gave you the money they saved on the court case so that you could spend it on a new car instead or is it only the folks in NI who don’t merit justice under your perverse value system?

  • Reader

    Munsterview: On the other hand this ‘sack class and ashes’ is so central to protestant theology…
    Jewish theology. It’s just a metaphor round these parts. Though you also seem to have forgotten the significance of the ashes in Ash Wednesday – not really a Prod thing.

  • Munsterview

    “…..In these circumstances no Cleric or anyone farmilar with the concept of Roman Catholic Theology would expect any ex sinner of any sort to go through a ‘ sackcloth and ashes’ public humiliation before they can be rehabilitated….. in fact the concept is so alien that I cannot ever recall any Catholic Cleric in any period demanding it……..”

    I had expounded views inside Irish Historical culture and especially that of the last two hundred years. I have no doubt if I went to Finland of the 15th, century or the Calcutta of the 12th century I could find an example too to transfer to Ireland but I try to keep things focussed to the issues and relevant.

    I have no doubt either that If one do an internet search one can get an example of ‘boiling political opponents’ but it takes a particularly imaginative and fertile imagination to have this happening in Kerry during the Civil War !

    As usual more abuse and no answers…….!

    However the net is closing ! The Doherty McArdle scholarship issue remains unanswered, not that answers are needed the facts stand, it is just the gross ignorance of these facts that stands exposed together with other details of Catholic / Nationalist culture.

  • Alias

    It’s interesting that Shinners proffer catholic teaching when it suits them but ignore all of its commandments. Those folks will try any trick to get away with their vile crimes. Penance isn’t a part of Judaism’s concept of forgiveness but it is a major part of Catholicism. The sackcloth and ashes is about showing contrition, and not part of any penitent ceremony. The contrition is important because Judaism, unlike Catholicism, doesn’t have any proxy figure to whom the transgression can be confessed and forgiven so the transgressor must approach the transgressed and ask him for his forgiveness. If the request is deemed to be genuine then the transgressed party should forgive. Essentially, sins by man against man can only be forgiven by man whereas sins against G-d can only be forgiven by G-d. So forgiveness is never used as a proxy for justice, neither in Judaism nor Catholicism, which is what the Shinner sycophants would like it to be. Jesus might have granted the thief on the cross a free pass from purgatory but only after had died by the justice that the state delivered to him.

  • Alan Maskey

    Top Boiling should have said top billing, as in Tiny Lyons gets top billing/boiling in The Tragedies of Kerry. It would be odd that a so called top brass Kerry Republican never herard of Tiny Lyons, who gets top billing in The Tragedies of Kerry.
    No wonder Sean O’Callaghan did not like this troll. Bigger fish to fry as they say.
    Although we canot expect a Provo clown to have read his peny cathechism, most of us wil know of Pope Gregory making Emperror Henry do public peance. We would also be familiar with public Spanish penitential rites etc etdc.

    And so let us try to stay on track.
    The IRA must make restitution. McGuinness could start,k if not by offing himself like John Corcoran’s daughter did, at least by fessing up like a man..

  • Alan Maskey

    http://victims.org.uk/s08zhk/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

    Wilie Fraser seems to be pretty much on message.

  • Munsterview

    Reader

    I am not really perusing the theology of this for it’s own sake. I take a live and let live to most postings but not with posers claiming that they are representative of a culture or traditions that they obviously do not.

    When it is apparent that those who are claiming insights from their experience of a culture where they exhibit constant ignorance of aspects of that culture, then they are ignorant period or if the poster has shows signs of a certain standard of learning in other areas, then there is an agenda there!

    There is also a culture for this bogus ‘Irish Nationalist Catholic view’ on this island from the Casement diaries, The Parnell Forgeries etc all the ways back to the writings of ‘Gerald of Wales’

    I do not need this : While I read quite a few sites, I blog or post very little on other sites, only some six or seven in all ; my last International political article some time back was carried in dozens of sites and translated into various languages…. and dealt with on the merits of the subject matter per se on all such sites.

    Then back here to the dreary steeples perspectives etc that wearied Churchill when he turned his attentions from Europe and found it all there waiting waiting and unchanged after the watershed of WW2 Europe.

    I do not mind slogging it out in the trenches here or crossing swords with Turgon et al. While a ‘spoiler’ is a legitimate tactic on a site such as this and is one of the prices we must pay for open net access exchanges, I do object to the waste of time dealing with distractions and red herrings.

    However when an ‘expert’ purports to give insights and then do not have a grasp of basic details of what they purport to represent, the question arise, what is the agenda here ?

    It is also an insult to intelligence to propagate something that any ex intel person can dissect in five minutes and a few clicks of a mouse by comparative linguistic characteristics with other persona postings on other threads from the same source.

    As was recently pointed out here by another poster, the proportion of posters against readers is in low single % figures. It may appear tedious to other posters but when I point out the contradictions in the likes of pesky’s postings, it is but to draw attention of the general readership to the ‘false flag’ flying !

    Outside of that as I communicated to this particular poster in our last direct exchange, I will not waste another keystroke on him or what I am now satisfied are other personas of his.

  • joeCanuck

    Does mental masturbation also make you go blind?

  • tacapall

    You’re like a castle catholic acting like a Ulster Unionist, at the very worst you are a Unionist.Call me what you like but Im consistant, how can anyone take Willie Frazer seriously in his crusade to highlight a one sided view of victims. At the end of the day he is like the rest of the phoneys, its all about money and he can be bought.

  • Munsterview

    Alias

    As I posted to ‘Reader’ this is not really about theology…… it was exposing a fraud poster !

    I have now done enough in this regard for any reasonable person to make their own mind on the subject.

    It may surprise you to know that among the people I correspond with on a weekly basis is a Jewish expert and a believer. However as he is hostile to Zionism he is also probably by your standards a ‘self hating Jew’, a fact allow everything somebody like him has to say to be dismissed by somebody like you.

    As to G-d and Christianity, if you are also a believer then more than likely you draw your belief system from the branch of Judaism that Jesus was most opposed to and it would take a far longer post and indeed more than a few threade to explore these issues.

    If memory serves me right from your postings on the intercepted ships and the killing of some of the members of the relief convoy to Gaza, while you may be informed in aspects of Christian thinking, Christian thinking do not inform too much of your attidutes or values on that occasion ?

    Lets keep to politics……. do you know that there is only room for one set of religious victims on this Island and these were always Protestant……. even when they ruled the political roost they never stopped crying actoss the water that they were all about to be murdered in their beds !

  • Alias

    “As I posted to ‘Reader’ this is not really about theology…… it was exposing a fraud poster !”

    Let’s examine the evidence that you presented: “So…. shegar and sackcloth and ashes…… and an ignorance of republican writers earlier, as uncle Albert said it is the little things that trip you up !”

    Err, okay ‘evidence’ might be a tad hyperbolic to describe the above but as I understand it, essentially it is comprised of the following two pseudo-syllogisms: “Mr Maskey likes horses. English prods like horses. Therefore, Mr Maskey is… blah, blah.” and “Mr Maskey espouses protestant theology. Protestants, oddly enough, espouse protestant theology. Therefore, Mr Maskey is… a filthy prod posing as a Fenian.”

    As Alan Maskey pointed out to you, the theology that you dismissed as protestant is more properly Catholic, with the protestant denominations adopting various positions on it, so your own logic (if you ever followed it) would indict you as the fraud.

    “I have now done enough in this regard for any reasonable person to make their own mind on the subject.”

    And have you done this?

    “It may surprise you to know that among the people I correspond with on a weekly basis is a Jewish expert and a believer. However as he is hostile to Zionism he is also probably by your standards a ‘self hating Jew’, a fact allow everything somebody like him has to say to be dismissed by somebody like you.”

    It wouldn’t surprise me because I have not formed any opinions about what sort of folks you correspond with (other than one is probably a head doctor). You, however, have formed an opinion about what my opinion would be a non-Zionist Jew. In fact, my actual opinion wouldn’t be much different from what it would be toward a member of any other nation who doesn’t believe that his nation has a right self-determination. In that regard, the ‘self-hating Jew’ wouldn’t be much different from the ‘self-hating Irishman’ which you, as a Shinner supporter, would be.

    “As to G-d and Christianity, if you are also a believer then more than likely you draw your belief system from the branch of Judaism that Jesus was most opposed to and it would take a far longer post and indeed more than a few threade to explore these issues.”

    I’m one of those awful cultural Jews. For example, while we both seem to use the pious form of referring to G-d, I use it not because of Exodus 20:7 but because it honours my parents. In actuality, the internet is not regarded as a permanent form of writing (according to my Rabbi), so it is okay to write it the other way but it wouldn’t be okay with my parents… if that makes any sense? And no, I don’t live with them…

    “If memory serves me right from your postings on the intercepted ships and the killing of some of the members of the relief convoy to Gaza, while you may be informed in aspects of Christian thinking, Christian thinking do not inform too much of your attidutes or values on that occasion ?”

    Now I apologise for filling the space with a boring anecdote in the above paragraph (which is your style). Now the Torah prefers war to peace, but it makes no injunction against self-defence. The Babylonian Talmud even preaches the doctrine of pre-emptive self-defence. Christianity likewise allows self-defence. That’s just as well because all states practice it, forming armies for the express purpose.

    “Lets keep to politics……. do you know that there is only room for one set of religious victims on this Island and these were always Protestant……. even when they ruled the political roost they never stopped crying actoss the water that they were all about to be murdered in their beds !”

    That comment is blatantly sectarian.

  • Alias

    Typo: “prefers war peace to peace war” *ahem*

  • Munsterview

    Alias
    “Lets keep to politics……. do you know that there is only room for one set of religious victims on this Island and these were always Protestant……. even when they ruled the political roost they never stopped crying across the water that they were all about to be murdered in their beds !”

    That comment is blatantly sectarian.

    ****************

    That may have been a throwaway ironic comment, but it is also a factual if inconvenient truth. I do not intend to respond any great detail here as I had already flagged that I would deal with this the question of narrative of Gael / Planter in the course of an article where it can be contextualized.

    The ‘Murder At The Wildgoose Lodge’ by Terence Dooley, Fourt Courts Press….2007 cover many of these issues and provide a good starting point to examination of narrative presentation. ( 941.825 DOO)

    As to pesky : this has gone on for a number of threads, to-day the issue was Doherty McArdle.

    Most people with a even a passing knowledge of republicanism would know how and why Doherty McArdle broke with Dev. She did not at any time repudiate her previous writings as Pesky alleged, when Dev turned against IRA / Sinn Fein Republican Movement, Doherty turned against Dev but long before that she had become dis-enchanted with him and stopped dedicating her books to him.

    A republican of any shade from FF to continuity would have known that, he did not, why ?

    A small thing perhaps to you, but it is also another of the little things that in every post show that for all his ‘cleverness’ in presentation and packaging, and given his apparent vintage, he do not have a grasp of detail that someone as he claims to be, should have.

    I have drawn attention to these contradictions, and will continue to do so, but only in passing. You have a consistent view here, I do not normally respond to that or take issue with that as you are entitled to your views as I am to mine. As to whether Masky is unmasked or otherwise at this stage, it largely depends on the readers viewpoint.

  • Munsterview

    Alias,Pesky…….12 September 2010 at 9:18 am

    Sinn Fein are trying to rewrite history for their own ends etc……

    Grubby people are not fit to lead…….

    Let’s not forget Shergar……

    And of course, PIRAs like to commemorate everyone and anyone who ever raped or robbed for Ireland at the drop of a hat……

    PIRA in all its manifestations is a liability. Put them in sackcloth and ashes ……

    Make them atone instead of portraying themselves as victims.
    ****************
    Anything in the foregoing that cannot be found in Loyalist sites ?

    By remarkable co-incidents we have a ‘Castle Catholic’ ? here ?

    These people do not do slugger and if they did, they would not need for a false flag to do so!

  • slappymcgroundout

    “And if your daughter was gang-raped in the good old US of A, would you rather that the state let her rapists go free and gave you the money they saved on the court case so that you could spend it on a new car instead or is it only the folks in NI who don’t merit justice under your perverse value system?”

    Alias, if it’s good enough for this mother (3:10-3:55):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUM0ZV9HsoI

    You see, friend, Rita understands the difference between vengeance and ensuring that no other mother endure what she must endure. And so to answer your question, if it’s no more rapes on the one side versus court of inquiry on the other, there isn’t even a choice to make. That’s why Rita didn’t even hesitate in giving her response. She understands what it means to be victim and she has compassion and love enough to endure the unendurable if that makes it so none need ever experience her pain. She is what I call, hero. If only more were her.

    Lastly, the other problem here is that it’s all in the timing. Since those “lucky” enough to have been apprehended, tried, and convicted pre-Agreement got to go free. Is anyone insisting that they provide the “truth” (recall here the usual refusal to even recognize the jurisdiction of the court, so any admission of guilt and/or details were out). This is the problem that I have with McGeough’s case, since if he too had been apprehended and tried prior to the Agreement, he’d be a free man now. Pip calls for an amnesty and some others agree. I would simply hold that the Agreement provisions re prisoners and their rehabilitation (read the Agreement) implies an amnesty for everybody else, lest we be left with the wholly arbitrary and capricious circumstance wherein some are made to pay worse than some others owing simply to the timing of their apprehension, trial, and conviction.

    Almost forgot, but don’t know your life experience, but I do know that one of my legal secretaries was stabbed to death, a work comp client of mine was manually strangled to death, and a high school acquaintance that I played basketball with 1 or 2 times a week was shot dead when someone did their carjacking thing. My only interest in anyone’s apprehension, trial, conviction and incarceration for those events only concerns the matter of ensuring that it doesn’t happen to anyone else. There’s no satisfaction, there’s no closure, there’s no whatever you want to call it, for some being in jail. My friends are in a box in the ground and nothing and no one, save Deity, can give them “justice”. And like the Agreement says, if I’m to do anything, it’s to ensure that no else has to live with boxes in the ground before their time. That’s my investment in the matter, in every sense and respect. And believe it or not, but if the humans in jail for murder are truly changed souls, then their continuing incarceration is worse than pointless. Maybe they could get out of jail, do some good in the community, and as I’ve said here before, let their good in the community work their atonement. Who knows, maybe on the outside they can save a life and then I can call it even.

  • Alan Maskey

    Doherty McArdle most likely refers to Dorthy McArdle, who left the royalties of her book to one Eamonn Devalera. Munsterview’s mega essays are not worth readinbg. He might be old and doddery and verging on a heart attack. He might possess the underlying Provo propensity to man people. (He has admitted sticking guns into the ears of defenceless junkeys). Either way, it is sad but instructive to see trolls here defending killing Shergar and forcing the daugher of John Corocran to commit suicide.
    On the subject of Catholicism and yes, we know about the castrati, but mutilating and six packing people is against the Catholic teacnhing. The body is suposed to be sacred. That is why both mutolation and masturbation is frowned upon. Munsterview should stop it.

  • Alan Maskey

    Slappy: There is a very big difference between the “personal” cases you cite and the “political” ones at the heart of the Troubles. The people who whacked your friends have most likely no political ambitions.
    The Provos, on the other hand, want to dictate investment policy (Shergar, bombing hotels, kidnapping and torturing entrepreneurs and so on).
    I am usre many of the rank and file PIRA blanket men would have made good community workers etc. It is very easy to picture McGuinness as your local freindly butcher or Adams as a bartender/ listening to the bull of the normal early morning boozers.
    That is not what is at question here. These people have ambitions to dictate our lives. Their supporters here show a decidedly authoritarian streak. People question the morality of Fianna Fail MPs and senators, People, McGuinness included, question the double standards of leading clerics.

    But, if we point that Provo leopards may not have changed their spots, we are bad people.
    The hard nosed edge of the Provos goes down well with their Northern RC electorate, just as Paisleys’s Neverisms went down well with his sheep. But beyond all the sectarian shouting, in the quiet of contemplating, there is something decidely stomach churning about PSF.
    Jean McConville, Denis Donaldson, Patsy Gillespie, Charlie Armstrong, Shergar.

    We know their dream; enough
    To know they dreamed and are dead;
    And what if excess of love
    Bewildered them till they died?
    I write it out in a verse –
    Shergar and McConville
    And Gillespie and Donaldson
    Now and in time to be,
    Wherever green is worn,
    Are changed, changed utterly:
    A terrible beauty is born

  • Secret Squirrel

    From hence, ye Beauties, undeceived,
    Know, one false step is ne’er retrieved,
    And be with caution bold.
    Not all that tempts your wand’ring eyes
    And heedless hearts, is lawful prize;
    Nor all that glisters, gold.

  • Conor

    Yes, Martin Ferris has attempted to correct the records of the Dáil regarding the events at Ballyseedy. And he got quite a kicking in the Irish Times for it only recently.

  • slappymcgroundout

    “if we point that Provo leopards may not have changed their spots”

    When was the last time the PIRA placed a bomb and phoned a warning?

    Lastly, are you a Thatcherite? Is it crime is crime, or was it war? As an American, the presence of the British Army means war. We don’t usually have truth and reconciliation commissions after wars, but war crimes trials, and that only when one side has clearly won while the other side rather surrendered. The surrendered don’t usually have a veto in government following the war. And that”s your problem.

    “Catholics are supposed to make honest atonement and restitution before they are truly forgiven.”

    Well, then that says something about far some have deviated from both the teaching (ha-torah) and the euangelion of peace. Forgiveness isn’t given because it’s earned or because those on the receiving end are now “worthy” of the same. Forgiveness is given because it’s needed. As Sha’ul of Tarsus, also called Paolo, reported, God commends his love for us since when we were yet sinners Christ died for us. And as the one rabbi once said, after having lost wife and parents to Hitler’s willing executioners:

    “I could not bring Hitler over here with me, but the only way I could leave him behind was to forgive him.”

    And since someone mentioned that other man on the cross somewhere here on Slugger, sorry, friend, whoever you are, but you got that one wrong. There was not only the other man, there was Yeshua himself. Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. Do you think that Marty and Gerry are any more enlightened?

  • billy

    Pitiful really.

    Bordering on an obsession now.

    Stop whinging, Alan. You look sad.

  • Alias

    The problem with redemption is that it requires genuine remorse, which requires a conscience. And as those with sociopathy and psychopathy (antisocial personality disorders) are devoid of conscience and the capacity for empathy, that rules those criminals out of the biblical equation. Neurological disorders are not cured by reading the bible.

    Religion is a very poor substitute for the justice system of the state, and religious concepts of forgiveness and repentance should have no relevance in that system, being properly optional private matters for aggrieved individuals and transgressors.

    In this example, the state is declining to deliver justice for the victims of state-sponsored murder gangs because it deems it not to be in its interest to do so. It is not the public interest that it is serving by protecting its touts from accountability but rather the interests of its security services and the political class that turned a blind eye to their methods. The state can decline to deliver justice at its discretion because there is no international law or human right to justice that would remove that discretion from the state.

  • Alias

    To add to that comment about the absence of a right to justice in international law. It could be claimed that it wouldn’t matter if such a right existed because the state would violate it without sanction in the same way that it violates the right to life (Article 3 of the UDHR) without sanction.

    However, the state is only able to violate the right to life because it is able to conceal the violation through its discretion in regard to justice. It can either decline to investigate a crime; investigate a crime with the intent of failing to identify the culprits, or decline to prosecute at its discretion where evidence is presented by declaring not to be in the public interest.

    A right to justice would make it mandatory for the state to properly investigate a crime with the purpose of delivering justice for the victim of it, and remove the state’s discretion in regard to issuing PIICs, etc. If the state did not do so, then it would be possible to seek redress though the appropriate court.

    As it stands, the state can deny justice to its victims and those victims can do nothing about it other than despair.

  • Alan maskey

    Alias: The Judao Christian ideals, for good and bad, are almost part of our DNA by now. The provos mutilated people the (so called knee capping and six packing, as bad as any Islamic savages).
    Swedes and French have one brand of morality (ok for heir leaders to bonk around and ok to sell weapons ofmd to the devil if the price is right).
    Having McGionness nad Adams on pedastals and making altars of em seems perverse. Reminds me of the novel, Nana.