Photograph of the Day – Remember the fallen

Garden of Remembrance at the back of the Great Eastern Pub

If anyone can point me in the direction of a similar sectarian scrawl in a Nationalist area i’d be very happy to show that too.

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  • Paul

    Ok, MP, but with respect, that’s not really the answer to the main question I was asking:

    “As a matter of interest, do you go snapping around the Short Strand or Markets”

    If you don’t, why not?

    And if you do, can you put your hand on heart and say you’ve not seen a “similar sectarian scrawl” to the one you’ve highlighted here?

  • Paul

    It makes sense if i’m posting photos of what i come across recently, it hardly makes sense to show photographs of graffiti that is gone, perhaps in 30 or 40 years once(and if) it is eradicated they will have more resonance but not now.
    If you want to see racist and sectarian related photosheres a set”

    So, if I’m understanding your correctly there, all the anti-hun stuff you’ve snapped is no longer there? Did you not keep any kind of record of it?

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Ah, apologies, I misconstrued – hadn’t seen those.

  • Mark McGregor

    You really don’t get it. You see hatred, when most people see recording a community he loves while noting the bits anyone would have problems with.

    Its all going way over your head (and a tiny closed mind at that).

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Michael:

    ” … what was it about the Germans in 1939 that would have differentiated them from the British in an Irishman’s eyes?”

    We are talking about the Nazis right? Just checking … I suppose the answer to your question would depend on how self-absorbed the Irishman was. You seem to be saying they were very self-absorbed. But I think you are too harsh on the Irish people of the time. In reality, most Irishmen knew very well how bad the Nazis were at that stage. It was idiot Republicans as ever that got it wrong, don’t tar other Irishmen with their patently appalling political judgment. Republicans’ hatred of other Irishmen – those with a British identity – was so great they were willing to side with Nazis against us. And they were / are trying to woo us towards some kind of joint nation with them? What a bunch of deludoids.

    “As for the idea that only nationalists have turned to their extremist political party, you’re having a laugh aint you?”
    That’s not what I said. I said that the violent extremists had been kept to the political margins within Unionism and they had triumphed within Nationalism. I’m not a DUP supporter but they are not the political wing of the UVF or UDA. Sinn Fein may seem somehow a normal organisation to a nationalist, but the rest of have not forgotten who they are or what they did. And it was a little more than harsh words or stupid policies – it was deliberately going out to kill people. The equivalent within Unionism is the PUP, not the DUP, much as I dislike the DUP.

    “I’ll not even touch the land grab comment, it’s laughable.”
    Hardly – Northern Ireland has been the subject of a territorial dispute since its inception; one that Irish Republicans tried to settle in their favour by physical force, against the wishes of the people in the area. If that’s not attempted land-grabbing, I don’t know what is.

  • Michael

    “We are talking about the Nazis right? Just checking … I suppose the answer to your question would depend on how self-absorbed the Irishman was.”

    Its a very simple question, and you have failed to answer it in a very long winded and boring manner. So I’ll ask again.

    What was it about the Germans in 1939 that should have made an Irishman think
    “Jazuz, these are the most evil bastards ever! I wish my govt would chip in and fight alongside the Brits.”

    Was it the concentration camps? cause that was nothing new was it?
    Was it the imperialism? Again, experienced first hand thanks to the neighbours.
    Was it psuedo-scientific doctrines that held one race above others and use of those doctrines to justify invading ‘lesser peoples’ and killing those that resisted? Not really something the neighbours hadent been upto for centuries.
    Forced labour? Gunboat diplomacy? ‘Famine’ caused by economic policies?
    What?

    Or was it just that the Germans had the poor taste to show european whitemen what the darkies had been experiencing for centuries?

  • Michael

    “Hardly – Northern Ireland has been the subject of a territorial dispute since its inception; one that Irish Republicans tried to settle in their favour by physical force, against the wishes of the people in the area. If that’s not attempted land-grabbing, I don’t know what is.”

    Its inception was the result of teh threat of physical force by those that did not accept the wishes of the majority, you can’t start banging on about democratic majorities once you have gerrymandered the majority you want through the threat of violence without people laughing in your face.

    “That’s not what I said. I said that the violent extremists had been kept to the political margins within Unionism and they had triumphed within Nationalism”

    Yeah, the main unionist party that discriminated against its own citizens and was linked with the orange order, and had no problem with using paramilitary police to enforce gerrymandering, or maybe the once lesser now greater unionist party whose leaders raised money for guns that murdered civilians.
    Jesus, if those guys are the moderates….

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    MU

    I would never claim there is “no sectarianism” eminating from Catholics/Nationalists because every now and then we see evidence of it, there seems a pretty big disparity in size, scale and impact on others between ‘green’ and ‘orange’ bigotry though. In my own experience of coming across ‘green bigotry’ which I have to admit has been rare it is almost always people of low intellect trying to mirror their orange pals. Or casually with folk (mostly older) using words like hun to denote Prods in the same way people might mention Paki’s or chinky’s for going to a shop. It is all wrong but does not carry the hateful intent. Funny story was telling my Da that I had bumped into Bertie Auld who I know and he told me conversationally “he is a hun, isnt he?” in modern parlance a hun is a Rangers fan and I had my work cut out getting through the incongrouity of calling one of Celtic’s greatest ever players a ‘hun’.

    Remembering the IRA is not in itself sectarian either though some may have this reason for doing so, nor voting for SF considering their vote grew substantially post IRA campaign against the British. The IRA carried out many reprehensible acts, some of which were sectarian, all are pretty much unfogivable. However in my opinion these acts did not define their campaign no more than some of the murderous and often corrupt actions of the British forces in Ireland defined theirs.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Don’t know what this has to do with the substance of my point is Joe.

    I pointed out the obvious difference in manifestation between the multiple scribblings of ‘one side’ and the rare scribblings of the ‘other side’.

    Now whilst I agree with the “organisationally” response to a point I cannot let go your inferred need to imput balance where there is none by mentioning “or otherwise” which suggests that you think Nationalists lynch Prods as well. Is that what you meant by “otherwise” Joe?

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    MU

    Look up Edward and Mrs Simpson.

    >”My enemy’s enemy and all that, but really: the Nazis? Jesus.”<

    Unionists were only too happy to recieve German help when they needed arms and nobody in the public domain knew what barbaric depths the Nazi's were plunging until very late on.

    The Nazi fascist thing ripples right through the underbelly of Unionism. From Rangers fans displaying Nazi salutes to Trimble only to happy to placate the Israeli's with their whitewash into the attack on the Turkish ship. Many on the right in Europe are now wholeheartedly behind Israel, a total sea change from say 50 odd years ago. See the right need something to hate…………..it fuels them and their thinking.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    MU

    >”In reality, most Irishmen knew very well how bad the Nazis were at that stage. It was idiot Republicans as ever that got it wrong, don’t tar other Irishmen with their patently appalling political judgment. Republicans’ hatred of other Irishmen – those with a British identity – was so great they were willing to side with Nazis against us. And they were / are trying to woo us towards some kind of joint nation with them?”<

    Forgive me I am struggling with the dishonest complexities of the above. By "what stage" do you mean? Outside of those on the recieving end and those commiting the crimes, few outside some in allied intelligence knew of the Nazi actions until the end. Republicans have every right to choose to further their nations cause without need to refer to those who would unashamedly (as you refer to with your British Irishman scenario) ride two horses with one horse's interests expedient to the other. And as you have already said that you are an Irishman…..why would you mention a "joint nation" if such a thing could exist? Britain is currently in a political union (not for long I hope) between Scotland and England on the island of Britain, why would there be need of a mini joint one? Utterly ridiculous man!

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    The above comments from MU and lamhdearg only serve to inform me that I am dealing with people grappling in the dark here.

    No got a Danny La Rue!

  • Mark i find your comments offensive and i’d ask you to remove them please – i’ve made no personal attacks on anyone so i don’t see why you have to resort to that sort of silly behaviour.

    Now if your comments were true i’d understand but there not and i’ll prove it

    “You really don’t get it. You see hatred, when most people see recording a community he loves while noting the bits anyone would have problems with.”

    See if i was to believe you and MP there 2 sides within the one community in East Belfast yet MP only shows graffiti from one side of that Community.

    So this morning i decided if MP is to scared to take the photos i’d do for him.

    And i can exclusively to slugger/MP and you Mark that for every photo that MP posts of graffiti from just one side of my community in the East i’ll present one from the other.

    I mean we can’t be biased can we ?

    Starting of with this – just 5mins from MP

    Pretty good MP what you think ?

    http://politicsni.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=283

    Oh and incase everyone thinks every Prod hates Catholics in the East – your wrong !!

    And if anyone thinks every Catholic hates Prods in the East – your wrong !!

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Bj

    >”So this morning i decided if MP is to scared to take the photos i’d do for him.”<

    Apologies for the assault on your obviously unbiased charachter, but I get the impression that in your desperation to paint one side as bad as the other and ultimately prohibit introspectivity on the behalf of unionism……………… You seem to have taken some some white chalk along with your camera.

    Surely not!

  • LOL nah i’d never do that nor would MP !!

    Oh its not me painting one side worse than the other MP started that – just look through his photos totally biased !!

  • lamhdearg

    M P i do not think the doh head who wrote the slogan knows the differance between the roman catholic and non roman catholic churches, i do not think when thugs are beating people to death they are doing it because they disagree with the finer points of theological differance, what i try to get across in my post is that the hate seen on the walls and displayed in the actions of some people is not based on the religion of the people they hate but in the main its source is something else, also is the word taig (tadhg) not an old gaelic name that predates the gales converison to christ. i know lots of people who do not agree with irish nationalism some of them during “the war” even proposed killing irish nationlists, i know no one who was driven by a hate of the religion of the irish nats.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    So Michael, and Pronsias,
    Let’s get this straight: you are defending siding with the Nazis in WW2? I am still pinching myself. But given the atrocities Republicans seek to justify in Northern Ireland, perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised.

    If you really need to be told all the reasons why Nazi Germany was objectively of a different order to the British Empire in 1939, there are no shortage of books on Nazi Germany you can read: try Bullock or Burleigh for a start. A quote from Burleigh for starters: “Hitler took over existing ideas and converted them into a comprehensive programme for a racial new order … this racial new order was based upon the ‘purification of the body of the nation’ of all those categorised as being ‘alien’, ‘hereditarily ill’, or ‘asocial’. That meant Jews, Sinti and Roma, the mentally and physically handicapped, ‘community aliens’, and homosexuals.” The British Empire was brutal at times, not least in what is now the Republic, and I wouldn’t defend that for a second. But come on, it wasn’t the Nazi regime.
    In 1939 Mein Kampf was widely available, the Nuremberg laws had been passed, Hitler had gone from being elected Chancellor to being Fuehrer, Kristallnacht had happened. Some Jews had already been expelled. He had taken over his first non-German territories in March that year (Czechoslovakia) and in September he invaded and decimated Poland, triggering WW2, with a view to enslaving Slavic people and building a Europe based on a doctrine of racial purity and brutal military power. If you really think Britain was that bad in 1939, you’re getting your own suffering out of proportion. Are you sorry the Nazis lost?

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Pronsias,
    “Forgive me I am struggling with the dishonest complexities of the above. By “what stage” do you mean?”
    1939 – the date referenced by Michael earlier.

    “Outside of those on the receiving end and those commiting the crimes, few outside some in allied intelligence knew of the Nazi actions until the end.”

    See my earlier answer. That’s true of the extermination camps which got going in 41 and some of the Waffen SS stuff in the East, but not the rest of it, e.g. the fate of the German Jews in the 30s which was well known. Britain took in many Jewish refugees during this period and some came to Northern Ireland. I wonder what they made of the swastikas in some Republican areas? The Free State meanwhile refused German Jews asylum.

    “Republicans have every right to choose to further their nations cause without need to refer to those who would unashamedly (as you refer to with your British Irishman scenario) ride two horses with one horse’s interests expedient to the other.”
    You seem to mean Republicans don’t have to worry about what the British population thinks. Well, clearly they don’t worry. They can’t help themselves treating us less respectfully than they treat their own ethnie. Irish nationalism is unfortunately riddled with ethnic chauvinist assumptions about the superiority of Catholic Irish culture over Protestant British culture. Not very appealing to us I’m afraid and without us you will never have an all-Ireland nation. So not a smart move.

    “And as you have already said that you are an Irishman…..”
    No, I didn’t, I said that was what many of my forbears called themselves then. The 70-98 IRA campaign changed a lot of Ulster Prods’ attitudes towards the term ‘Irish’. So I don’t call myself an Irishman, though my father did. But I have multiple layers of identity of course and Irish is down in there somewhere. But it’s not a very meaningful word for me as it describes neither my nationality nor my ethnic group.

    “… why would you mention a “joint nation” if such a thing could exist? Britain is currently in a political union (not for long I hope) between Scotland and England on the island of Britain, why would there be need of a mini joint one? Utterly ridiculous man!”
    I was under the impression that Irish nationalists were keen to build a single Irish nation. Given that there are currently two nationalities on the island (see the GFA, agreed by all parties and indeed, life around you), this new Irish nation would be a joint affair between the current Irish and current British populations. Hence “joint”. Though I note the Irish side seems to want to use their name to refer to the new joint nation. Feels more like a takeover than a merger … And of course the whole idea of trying to convert one ethnic group to the other’s identity, in the name of peace and progress, is both patronising and absurd. But that’s Irish nationalism for you.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Michael,
    In answer to your other points, at the risk of boring you:

    “Its inception was the result of teh threat of physical force by those that did not accept the wishes of the majority, you can’t start banging on about democratic majorities once you have gerrymandered the majority you want through the threat of violence without people laughing in your face.”

    Solution 1 – united Irish state of 32 counties: national minority of 950,000 would have been created
    Solution 2 – 26 county Irish state created and 6 counties remain in UK – national minority of 500,000 created.
    No one being fair and objective could prefer 1 over 2.
    Sorry, but this is how decisions about international borders are made: the idea is to minimise minorities stuck on the wrong side. It’s never perfect but the border was objectively better where it was than where Irish nationalists were proposing. Bogus argument and always has been. Indeed the bigger the majority, the fairer it would have been for more people. The term “gerrymandering” is misused here – meaningless. Irish govt lawyers advised against taking UK to the ICJ over it for that very reason: they would have lost.

    I do take the point about force of arms: fair enough. And Unionists were guilty of playing fast and loose with the law in 1912 – a disgrace really. But it shouldn’t cloud our appraisal of the accuracy of the border – more accurate than the alternative you are suggesting, I’m afraid.

    “That’s not what I said. I said that the violent extremists had been kept to the political margins within Unionism and they had triumphed within Nationalism”

    Yeah, the main unionist party that discriminated against its own citizens and was linked with the orange order, and had no problem with using paramilitary police to enforce gerrymandering, or maybe the once lesser now greater unionist party whose leaders raised money for guns that murdered civilians.
    Jesus, if those guys are the moderates….

    Yes the Unionist Party were pretty bad in the 30s and 40s especially, though not as black as you make them sound. And the reality is, while gerrymandering was bad at a council level esp west of the Bann, at Stormont, Unionists were in power because they won the most votes, not because they cheated. Pretty poor government in many respects but not exactly Nazi Germany either. You have to remember, Unionists were two thirds of the electorate at the time and as long as Irish nationalism continued to be a credible threat, it wasn’t hard to scare people into voting Unionist.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Didn’t someone say the camera never lies? (apart from Buck’s Fizz)

  • ordinary joe

    Prionsa Eoghann

    Can I suggest that the introspectivity (sic) might begin a bit closer to home.

    You have been using terms such as proddies orangies huns and hauf wits on this site over the last few weeks. I think you were warned about using hun.

    Earlier in this thread you claim that hun is a relatively innocent and ingenuous term, your comparatives being (to quote you) as in going to the chinkys or to the paki shop.

    Thanks for the information that it’s also mostly used only by older people.

    I was under the misapprehension that it was a key term in the virulent lexicon of Glasgow soccer sectarianism.

    Denial is not a large river in west central Scotland.

  • Hedley Lamarr

    Lamhdearg- the loyalists who killed Catholics might not have been driven by any theological opposition to their religion but they mostly targeted Catholics solely because they were Catholics.

    They did this in order to terrorise that part of the community into giving up what little support there was for the IRA . They mainly didn’t know if the Catholics they killed were Nationalist, Republican or unionist.

    If my memory serves me correctly polls showed that Nationalist support for the IRA never rose above 10% and 25% of Catholics were for maintaining the United Kingdom during the Troubles. So obviously if only the religion of the majority of loyalism’s victims was known they were not killed for their “Nationalism”.

    It mightn’t be based on theological difference but bigotry often comes down to the smallest common denominator.

  • Clo

    Similarly my brother and I were chased through our estate, my brother beaten with sticks, on the first week of attending a Catholic secondary school. Funny thing is that our family is completely and utterly non-religious, but I suppose you’re Catholic enough if you attend a school of that persuasion. Must have been about 11 years old. We’d lived on that loyalist estate our whole lives but had to move away after that because we couldn’t walk home in our uniforms. Same estate that Kevin McDaid lived on.

    Not to sound bitter, but it’s one of the big reasons I can’t abide Gregory Campbell harping on about the persecution of Protestants in Derry city when this is happening, quite literally, on his doorstep and has been for many many years.

  • lamhdearg

    Hedley (funny name like it)
    i do not agree (suprise) when loyalist killers targeted unknowns they where killing people they thought where irish nationalist, i agree they (in unknown killings) did not know the political beliefs of there victims but surely you can see that also must mean they could not have known there religion, in these case’s they assumed.

  • Michael

    “Let’s get this straight: you are defending siding with the Nazis in WW2? I am still pinching myself. But given the atrocities Republicans seek to justify in Northern Ireland, perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised.”

    No, you not ‘trying to get it straight’, you are purposefully getting it wrong.
    Try again.

  • Glencoppagagh

    I find it irritating when an assertion like that is thrown in without justification. It’s a tactic that was widely used by SF spokespeople in media interviews. They would append assertions such as that in response to questions to which they were not directly relevant and because of that interviewers never bothered to challenge them.
    So far Billy has managed to come up with one additional example. The four he initially named are, therefore, hardly ‘but a few’. They are, to his knowledge anyway, nearly all examples.

  • MC Observer

    Tonight I noticed that the shutters of the Northern Ireland Hospice shop on the Ormeau Road, just opposite the Errigle, are emblazoned ‘KAH’ (that’s Kill All Huns/Protestants) in large letters. I look forward to you moochin’ round there and blogging a pic here. If you can’t for some reason, I took one and if you give me your email address I’ll send it on and you can stick it up here.
    Clearly equally revolting, surely? Let’s see.

  • MC Observer

    And that comment still not published. Fancy that.

  • Paul Smeenus

    On my way to work this morning, I walked between the ends of the Ravenhill Rd and the Cregagh Rd and passed a silver box (I think it’s something to do with the electricity service) on which “Huns are C-nts” had been scrawled. In fairness, that made me chortle, because in my case at least, our dauber is 100% correct.

    Continuing over the Albert Bridge and turning left onto the tow/bike path that runs behind Maysfield, there’s a big stone circular seating thing by the side of the water. In amongst all the rest of the philosophical rejoinders, I noticed a swastika and “KKK”. Someone had drawn a puking head nearby – whether this was evidence of intra-group tensions about white supremacists amongst the Young Market Hoods or coincidence, I can’t say. I can tell you DEKO supports Brazil, Celtic and Cliftonville, in that order.

    I walk past these things very often, and today, just because I was keeping an eye out, actually spotted them. I do know there’s also a big KAH on the wall of the Short Strand itself, just up from the bus stop, opposite the building site where no doubt more new flats will be built.

    Am I the only one actually trying to answer Moochin’s question?

  • Paul Smeenus

    Whithour trying to score points, I mean?

  • MC Observer

    So Moochin, are you going to take a picture of the Kill All Huns sprayed in huge letters over a HOSPICE shopfront and blog it here?

    “If anyone can point me in the direction of a similar sectarian scrawl in a Nationalist area i’d be very happy to show that too.”

    If anything it is worse than the above: the area is mixed, the premises in question dedicated to helping alleviate the suffering of everyone and anyone. You came panting on here like the dog with two proverbials with that photo. If you seriously haven’t seen any sectarian, anti-Protestant graffiti in Belfast it can only have been because you’ve never actually been in a nationalist area, because every nationalist area has it – and as I have demonstrated, some areas which would be perceived as either mixed or unionist.
    This selective myopia is highly informative.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    I’m not sure he is purposely getting it wrong Michael.

    I’ll help you out a wee bit MU, although forgive my condescension but sometimes it is needed. Try reading what the other guys are writing as your comprehension is woefully lacking.

    Anyone with an interest in that era knows when the atrocities the Nazi’s were commiting were occuring now……………in hindsight………………but at the time they were not known to the general public until the very end. Try taking that in or prove otherwise.

    Also the idiotic statement about swastika’s in Republican areas witnessed by Jewish refugee’s made me laugh. You aren’t related to a certain David Vance who famously claimed that there was a Palestinian Panzer division at Stalingrad…….SS no less.?

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Ordinary Man

    How are you, Good I hope?

    I don’t understand the “(sic)” after one of my big words, could you elaborate please?

    Thanks for reminding me of my colloquialisms but I was not warned at all, more like Mark being a bit too pc.

    Everything else you say is correct apart from inserting denial in place of the Clyde, perhaps your comprehension is faulty or are you trying to make a point somewhere? Or is repeating what I have said without commentary your idea of making a point?

    A wee bit boring. Canny wait for yir canny response balderick ;¬)

  • Well done MC & Paul

    The silence is deafening – maybe Mick/Slugger will now put an end to this clear bias !!!

  • MC Observer

    I have this pic sitting here, just give me an email address and I’ll fire it over and you can blog it here. It’s no problem. Come on, ‘Moochin’. It’s no hassle.

  • MC Observer

    The silence really IS deafening. Unless he’s currently out taking said picture, for posting tomorrow.
    Come on, keep your word or abandon any claim to neutrality/ balance.

  • Morning MC & Paul

    MC i must have taken a least a dozen pics within half hour

  • Paul Smeenus

    I have no interest in “catching out” Moochin’, or even, particularly, demanding he “balance” his other pictures.

    The only reason I responded to this topic, as opposed to hundreds of others I read without posting, was because I lived in the Holylands as a wee boy, and when I saw the “Hun-Free!” graffiti years later, I was fascinated and saddened.

    I thought there might be something interesting in the fact that it was in a student ghetto, and that I’d never seen any other graffiti with just such a tone – we’ve all seen worse, much worse, but the turn of phrase I thought was interesting. No-one took me up on it, so I posted some other examples to try to elicit a bit of debate, but I’m not really interested in a topic that just slides straight into whataboutery

  • ordinary joe

    Prionsa Eoghann

    It’s pretty simple really.

    The positions you adopted earlier on this thread might have convinced more if you yourself hadn’t been casually using the argot of the sectarian football rammy on other recent threads.

    You appeared to be claiming earlier on this thread that ‘hun’ is basically an almost benign and slightly archaic folk-term.

    Now you’re calling it a colloquialism, and you’re still in the middle of that rather large river.

    Terms that demeaningly aggregate individuals or social cultural and religious groups and which find their habitual use in that context are not colloquialisms.

    And in modern times it’s the opinion of the affected group rather than the often economical or self-serving position of the user that matters more.

    Anyone who can casually talk of proddies orangies huns and hauf wits and who at the same time expects their opinions on sectarianism to be taken seriously should perhaps bear in mind George Orwell’s claim: if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.

    Despite your protestations to the contrary I seem to recall that when you started to talk of ‘huns’ on another thread, you were called on it by the poster.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    OJ

    >”The positions you adopted earlier on this thread might have convinced more if you yourself hadn’t been casually using the argot of the sectarian football rammy on other recent threads.””You appeared to be claiming earlier on this thread that ‘hun’ is basically an almost benign and slightly archaic folk-term.””And in modern times it’s the opinion of the affected group rather than the often economical or self-serving position of the user that matters more.””Anyone who can casually talk of proddies orangies huns and hauf wits…””I seem to recall that when you started to talk of ‘huns’ on another thread, you were called on it by the poster.<"

    See you have downgraded this. I repeat that he was being a bit pc that is all, if he had anything to pull me up on then he would have.

    I will gladly take a boot in the baws if I deserve it Joe, but in this instance I don't feel I am quite there despite your desire to do so. I abhor bigotry from whatever quarter……………….as I can only assume do you.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    No idea why all my responses never made it under the quotes. No time just now but will get back to you.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    On the question of the Nazis in 1939, see again my answer of 12.40 on 29th August, in which I answered that exact question in detail. I then got asked it again and this is now the third time. So don’t lecture me about not reading. You need to scroll up.

    On the Republican display of swastikas, I didn’t say it was widespread but it did happen. And the IRA leader of the time was buried at sea (he died on board a Nazi U-boat) with a swastika on his coffin.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    MU

    Here is what you were reffering to;

    ^^A quote from Burleigh for starters: “Hitler took over existing ideas and converted them into a comprehensive programme for a racial new order … this racial new order was based upon the ‘purification of the body of the nation’ of all those categorised as being ‘alien’, ‘hereditarily ill’, or ‘asocial’. That meant Jews, Sinti and Roma, the mentally and physically handicapped, ‘community aliens’, and homosexuals.” The British Empire was brutal at times, not least in what is now the Republic, and I wouldn’t defend that for a second. But come on, it wasn’t the Nazi regime.^^

    First off did you bother to look up the King of England Edward and Mrs Simpson?

    The “existing ideas” you mention which is the practice of eugenics was going on in many US states, indeed a famous court case sanctioned part of it, which of course you are probably deliberately overlooking;

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1299061/

    Further I have asked you now repeatedly to prove that any of the organised mass murders were known to the general public never mind the IRA early on in the war. You of course can’t do this and this is where your silly charges stem from when the IRA were doing their enemy of my enemy bit.

    Further again I am sure that you are deliberately overlooking that the Nazi’s learnt from the US re-native Americans and British re-Boers just how concentration camps can help deal with troubling situations.

    ^^On the Republican display of swastikas, I didn’t say it was widespread but it did happen.^^

    LOL! Was that a Palestinian SS Panzer division flying by ma windae on the back of a pig?

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    OJ

    ^^”The positions you adopted earlier on this thread might have convinced more if you yourself hadn’t been casually using the argot of the sectarian football rammy on other recent threads.^^

    I stated quite clearly that by using ‘hun’ I was reffering to those who frequent castle greyskull AKA ibrox by way of following the divots churned up by the thousands of knuckles that had been dragged there previously.

    ^^You appeared to be claiming earlier on this thread that ‘hun’ is basically an almost benign and slightly archaic folk-term.^^

    Well in the wrong context it can be just as foul a sectarian epithet as any other, happily for me I was not using the word in that text.

    I’ll elaborate by mentioning that Aussie sports commentaters go on about bashing the Pakies or that my pals in school in Melbourne used to slag each other by calling each other ‘bloody wogs’. Now the sports guys were merely using the shortened name for Pakistan in a non-abusive manner in relation to beating them at cricket and my pals the children/grandchildren of maltese/Italian/Greek/Macedonian/Croatian etc. immigrants were merely taking ownership of a term of abuse that has mainly lost it’s intent. I remember Chris Gaskin lately of Balrog relating a story about a Scottish prod asking him if he was a ‘Tim’. he blew a fuse and needless to say will not be taking cocktails with him anytime soon, total overreaction. The term ‘Tim’ is similar to ‘Hun’ and I reckon that it is only the context that you use it in that matters. Saying that I probably wouldn’t use either or the ‘Wog’ bit in polite company.

    ^^And in modern times it’s the opinion of the affected group rather than the often economical or self-serving position of the user that matters more.^^

    I totally agree with these sentiments and argue the same when opposing those orangies and their supporters who wish to impose themselves and often besiege communities where they are clearly not wanted. Saying that regarding ‘hun’ I would not use it in that context either if offence was taken.

    ^^Anyone who can casually talk of proddies orangies huns and hauf wits…^^

    Hauf wits is not a sectarian term, orangies is a coverall for the OO and supporters of that screwed mindset and proddies is a common term for well Prods.

    Ach my last response that didn’t make it was much more expressive but this’ll have to do. Anything else I can help clear up for you OJ let me know.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Totally respect where you are coming from here Paul. I’d echo the sentiments you expressed over returning to the area where you spent part of your childhood.

  • lamhdearg

    I find whataboutery follows “they did it”. Nice sentement in your post Paul. When i go back to where i lived before, well to be honest i dont i would not be wellcome.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Why’s that lamhdearg?

    Have they been reading your contributions on Slugger too.

  • lamhdearg

    Prionsa (whats that mean “i am lazy”) as to your response who are” they “?

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Are you steaming lamhdearg?

    Earlier you said you weren’t welcome where you lived before, if we can assume that it is the people in the area who provide the welcome then they are the “they”

    Or maybe stoned?

  • lamhdearg

    By (Prionsa whats that mean) i refeared to Prionsa. as for the welcome my familiy, where BURNT out of there home when i was a child ( my dad is bitter) all the people in our old street are not welcome.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Ffs lamhdearg I was only joking man……………..you are obviously 3 sheets to the wind so I’ll catch ye another day.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    If you’d bothered reading the thread further, you would have seen I had already acknowledged having taken it for a more general question: 28th Aug 10.33 post. So your comment makes no sense. Unless you’re now criticising people for not having seen one of a certain set of walls.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Prionsa,
    “First off did you bother to look up the King of England Edward and Mrs Simpson?”
    Hardly, everyone knows about that traitor; and I am anyway a (British) Republican. And Britain had its traitors of course. But what’s that got to do with anything? The point is, Irish Republicans threw their lot in with the Nazis and much as I hate the British Establishment, they really didn’t apart from the odd freak like Diana Mitford. But these people are rightly disowned by modern Britain. The irony is, lots of Catholic Irishmen fought the Nazis and had to do so in British uniform, which must have stuck in the throat for some of them. But those were tens of thousands of Irish heroes, which is something Ireland should be proud of, not the third rate sneaks of the IRA.

    “The “existing ideas” you mention which is the practice of eugenics was going on in many US states …”
    Yes, yes I know about eugenics also and that it was regarded at one time as progressive (GBS was a big fan). I think Burleigh’s point was that the Nazis put together eugenics with militarism, ultra-nationalism, racism and totalitarianism to create a new cocktail that was more destructive than anything seen before. There is of course nothing new under the sun and elements of it had happened in different places at different times. But I think your view that Britain and Nazi Germany were equivalent has very little to do with an objective view of Nazi Germany and everything to do with your own hatred of Britain. Clearly we’re never going to be good enough for you – but aren’t you supposed to be wooing us?

    “Further I have asked you now repeatedly to prove that any of the organised mass murders were known to the general public never mind the IRA early on in the war. You of course can’t do this and this is where your silly charges stem from when the IRA were doing their enemy of my enemy bit.”

    I answered this several times before. The Vernichtungslager had not started and I didn’t suggest they had. There were other things the Nazis did even before that that put them beyond the pale of civilised nations. Jews were wearing yellow stars and being herded into concentration camps by ’39, along with any political dissident … simply, the evil of the Nazis DID NOT START IN 1939 and it was widely covered at the time, not least by the BBC. Global concern about Hitler was building strongly from at least 1936 and of course there was a major crisis in 1938. After March 39 when they invaded Czechoslovakia, Nazi intent was clear. After the destruction of Poland, really where was the excuse? Do Republicans not read, see or hear the news? The IRA were helping them right up to 1944.

    Your ignorance might be more understandable if you were from the Republic (or are you?), as the War was pretty oddly reported there at the time and subsequently. As Henry Paterson notes in Ireland Since 1939, “the rigorous censorship regime did little to challenge the world-view of those who dismissed the war as a manifestation of inter-imperialist rivalry … Such views were widespread at both elite and mass level.” Once the war started, in the Republic reports of atrocities in German occupied Europe were suppressed and critics of Nazi Germany censored, under with watch of fanatical Brit-hater Frank Aiken. The odd thing is to hear the Nazi link defended in 2010, after all we now know. If I were Jewish, would you be making the same points you have made in the past couple of days?

    “Further again I am sure that you are deliberately overlooking that the Nazi’s learnt from the US re-native Americans and British re-Boers just how concentration camps can help deal with troubling situations.”

    No, I don’t dispute that. The Germans’ own annihilation of people in Namibia under the Kaiser was another early marker.

    “On the Republican display of swastikas, I didn’t say it was widespread but it did happen.
    LOL! Was that a Palestinian SS Panzer division flying by ma windae on the back of a pig?”
    Are you saying no Irish Republican ever had or displayed a swastika? I don’t expect many people to talk about it, but there are accounts of it happening. The best known is the mini-riot in Dublin at Trinity in 1945, featuring a young CJ Haughey, in which two of the Republicans famously carried a swastika (though it’s clear most of the crowd didn’t want it there). Like I say, it seems clear the flag wasn’t widespread but given the pro-German sympathies of many, it’s not surprising it did pop up from time to time.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Someone called me an “Orangie” on this very site, on the basis of putting broadly unionist views forward (I’m not an Orangeman or even a religious believer of any sort). And I’ve been abused with that term also in the street when a schoolkid. So it seems to be a general term of abuse for (supposed) Protestants.

    The Huns thing did start, I think, in Glasgow among Celtic fans as a term of abuse for Gers fans, but again it has widened in its NI usage and seems now to be used to refer to all Protestants.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    MU

    You have backtracked on so much now it is getting boring answering your hyperbole.

    Ok I get in your pro-British Irish mind it was bad for the IRA to side with the enemies of their enemies………………really who gives a fuck what a supporter of the enemy thinks. Do you care that I hate that Unionists team up with the Israeli’s or did deals with apartheid South Africa…………do you hell!

    Your next contention is after serious backtracking concerning the enormity of Nazi crimes is that even before 1939 the Nazi’s were bad guys………………know what? Totally agree with you. Could you remind me again who was selling out the CZechs and proclaiming “peace in our time”? Don’t tell me tat like the English King the English PM was a traitor also and in your view not to be considered. About the only person to emerge from this era with even a smidgeon of credit was Churchill.

    Now you are on about some hogwash in Dublin regarding flying Nazi flags. Remember your original comment stated that the poor jewish refugee’s had seen Nazi’s on walls in Republican areas of Belfast.

    Sorry MU but your credibility has eroded with my patience.

  • ordinary joe

    Prionsa Eoghann

    Not getting much time to visit Slugger this week but maybe one last belated comment.

    I agree that context is an important influence on meaning, though I’m not sure if terms that carry for instance a racial or religious sting are easily converted to inoffensive neutrality.

    Perhaps there are designations like brit and teuchter (just maybe) that can journey back and forward between connoting self-respect and disrespect.

    MU makes a fair point that a derogatory term can also shift from a specific group onto a more general community.

    With his examples I doubt that too many of those using them in this wider context are asking to see membership documents or season tickets before employing their tongues or their spray cans.

    You’re right that it’s easy to overreact, and it’s harder to balance the rights of individuals and groups with the right to freedom of speech, particularly if (to cadge from George Orwell again) freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

    I saw a documentary earlier this year about Tehran by an Iranian guy (who had got his resources from the Iranian regime) who used irony, mischief and juxtaposition (context again) to make something far more hard hitting than if he’d just called a spade a spade.

    Anyway, enough said.

  • MC Observer

    “If anyone can point me in the direction of a similar sectarian scrawl in a Nationalist area i’d be very happy to show that too.”

    So, Moochin – was that just total BS, or are you planning to follow the directions given above and photograph a similar sectarian scrawl?
    Be good of you to show us the courtesy of saying either way, given that it was you who made the offer.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Thanks OJ at first I thought you were just after a nip but you have highlighted important and relevant points.

    My position is that there is a time and a place. Shouting “dirty hun” pretty much anywhere……….even from the Broomloan whilst Rangers v Celtic does have dodgy implications. However two recent examples come to mind. Daily record coloumnist and Protestant Motherwell fan Tam Cowan mentions ‘token Tims’ or token huns’ often and the recent transfer on loan to Rangers of Aberdonian richard Foster has let rip a flurry of ‘anti-hun’ comments from Aberdeen fans. Of course the Aberdeen area is also easily the most Protestant part of Scotland but also an area mainly free of anti-Catholic sectarianism and a bulwark against OO marches in their area.

    It is not that I am a Frankie boylesque non-pc nutter or anything, mentioning Cowen reminds me of the time that he went on about ‘beadrattlers’ on his Radio Scotland sports programme. I found it highly offensive because even though I am to all intensive purposes atheist in my outlook. I was shocked at the casual anti-Catholic outburst passing as comedic comment.

    I am happy to submit to the theory of a time and a place, something I more or less said in my previous comment.

  • anna29

    …..”Oh what a tangled web we weave……”

    Two words, maybe not of wisdom: “Visit Coalisland!”

    (this has not been sanctioned by the Coalisland Tourist Board)