“the Provos never claimed legitimacy on the basis of popular support but by reference to the mandate of history”

In The Observer, Eamonn McCann warns of further disaffection with the political process as “job losses, cutbacks and welfare ‘reform'” are imposed.  And he identifies the problem highlighted previously here.  From The Observer article

Their allegiance was to the republic declared at Easter 1916. The dissidents have not budged from this position, whereas the Provos, they argue, abandoned the republic when they exchanged their Armalites for Armani and took executive positions at Stormont.

In the new era of shared power and Sinn Féin leaders striding the world stage with aplomb, the dissidents’ perspective may seem parochial begrudgery or fanciful nonsense, or both. But in strict ideological terms – objectively, we might say – it’s hard to deny they have a point. This doesn’t mean they are right. It does mean that if they are wrong, then so were the Provos during the years of the armed struggle, which speakers at Sinn Fein commemorations continue to extol as the noblest enterprise under the sun. It is this consideration that can make Gerry Adams’s regular, ringing denunciations of the Reals seem shifty.

Adds  And here’s a related BBC report – “The motivations of Lurgan’s dissident republican youth”

, , , , , , ,

  • JJ malloy

    Could you recommend a book, if there is one, on the IRB of the 1916-25 period?

  • Munsterview

    JJ

    Can you please inform me and slugger readers as to what position Collins held in the Free State Government or state at the time of his death.

    11 ) a, Collins met Florrie O’Donoghue on the way West in Macroom….. a matter of record ! b, Florrie O’Donoghue officially ‘sat out the war’ In practice as principle IRB intel officer and one of the highest ranking members in the South, he was in the thick of things for the IRB to the end. He returned to active service for the Free State during ‘WW2’ and again played a big role in Intel and counter Intel. He is one of the unsung heros of the period. c, The Republican Exectuive were meeting near the ambush position…. remarkable co-incidence…. or ?

    12 ) Two sources for this, a ) my late father-in-law was a cousin and close friend of Mick…. he was in fact the last relative that he spoke privately with hours before his execution and Mick told him in general what he was doing. b) Some years before he died, the late Sean McBride confirmed the same details for me in a long conversation. c ) McBride also said that if I could get hands on the blueprint of General Owen O’Duffy’s proposed Blueshirt march on Dublin, that the intended coup against the State was based on the same IRB action plan.

    13 ) One of Collins cousins, a solicitor in West Cork painstakingly assembled pieces of the puzzle regarding Collins death over decades. He was approached by a man with what appeared to be Trinity College credentials who was researching aspects of Collins life and he had some unknown documents. This was in the sixties well before the instant photo copy. One lunch time he disappeared with the entire file and anything to do with Collins. Trinity claimed to have never heard of the man. With hindsight it was probably Brit housekeeping…… or IRB doing the same thing.

    I am just putting this on record but it is nothing new….. a book ‘ on the swinging arm of time’ ( if memory serves me right as to the title) published privately by the son of an IRB man claimed the same things some twenty five years ago and he had no contact with my sources until I made contact after the book was published. His story came from a west of the Bann tradition, McBrides from Dublin and mine from Munster !

    Conspiracy or fact ? Seen through this prism quite a lot of the ‘Civil War’ makes sense as do the ruthlessness unleashed by the Free State post the death of Collins, who were hell bent in eliminating every known IRB/ IRA republican leader !

  • Munsterview

    “…….In short when you call somebody on their credibility on a public forum you either put up or shut up. However, going on past form I doubt if you will do either!…..”

    Correct again I fear, and no surprise at that!

    Either you have actual Sliabh Luachra connections that you can stand over and delineate to verify your expertise that so far consists of a) swimming in the Blackwater b) driving through the area and reading the inscription on a celtic cross and c) ‘walking the land’ . Increasingly you are coming across like a character in one of John B Kean’s Kerry plays…. except his characters are not one dimension!

    You called my credibility into question re my remarks on Sliabh Luachra…. I again challenge you in this…… put up or shut up !

    The region has apparently a rich cultural heritage and I cannot see anyone with genuine connections with the place ashamed of the fact……. so why are you ?

    This is not going to go away you know. You can either back up what you say or stand exposed for another Bull Sh** contrarian not worth wasting a keystroke on as far as I am concerned, other readers can make up their own minds on the matter !

  • Munsterview

    Alan
    “unminuted minutes”

    First off credit where credit is due…… a milestone for slugger…. you have just coined a new oxymoron ! Congradulations !

  • JJ malloy

    MV

    Thanks for your reply. honestly, I have read dozens of books on the independence period and this is the first I have ever heard of this. Many works state that Collins was on some peace trip or using his nuetral IRB contacts (like Hegarty) to try and stop the violence but nothing like this.

    It just brings all kinds of questions to mind! And that is an understatement. Nothing has piqued my interest like this in quite awhile.

    One things that comes to mind is how this could have possibly remained secret over the years?

    I’m off to the web to try to find anywhere where I can follow up on this topic…wish me luck

  • Munsterview

    JJ

    IRB archives exist in Ireland, Paris and the US but access is not made available to researchers, even the existence of these records are not openly admitted to by those who have custody of the archives.

    If you google Florrie O’Donoghue and try a few variations you should get his archive on line !

    The National Archives also has some material…… Old RIC files on known Fenian of the 19th, cen.

    As to a book, other than the ‘On The Swinging Arm Of Time’ already referred to I cannot recall any specific recent books. However many writers who were in the IRB did leave clues for those with ‘eyes to see’ to follow up other material and sources.

    Any serious study must start with the Ancient Irish and Scottish order headed by the Stewards in exile. Bonnie Prince Charlie handed these records over the the Swedish Royal Family who are the Masonic Guardians of these archives.

    I believe that some of the Ancients records in the States go back to the early 1700. Most of the IRB especially officer core were also Masons up to the stab in the back at the invasion of Canada. Scholarship in this area is further complicated in that French Masonry was introduced in to Ireland in the mid 19th cen and there was a Catholic underground stream there also that was ‘officially’ frowned on.

    Considering the forces that these people had to outwit, it was not surprising that all of this is buried so deep that very little has surfaced into main stream scholarship.

  • Alan Maskey

    Munsterview: Leaving aside the fact that you are taking this thread on an IRB/ Sliabh Luachra diversion, you don’t know what you are talking about. That applies to both Sliabh Luachra and the IRB. Give Malloy his reference.
    I know about the poets of Sliabh Luachra and Fr Dineen. Who wouldn’t? I also mentioned the most notorious act done in Rathmore during the Tan War and the cross you have to be in front of to read and the most notorious Tragedies of Kerry Free Stater to settle there. Amazing you were unaware of them, being such an expert and all.
    If you are such an expert, give Malloy the references he seeks. There must be plenty written on it, some using documented primary sources, others using “unminuted minutes” like your good self. When you speak of the IRB, you should give solid references, not just refer to your granny.
    But this is just a simple thread. When you posted one of your rambling essays much earlier, you finished with Lets see who comes out to play on this one!

    You will have to play with yourself now. I am sure you have had plenty of experience with the Provos, playing with yourself that is.
    I did tihnk Mr Baker made an interesting post and it would have been interesting getting the take of our sundered brethern on the more surreal side of Republican theology. But I can wait.

  • Munsterview

    Alan

    “…….In short when you call somebody on their credibility on a public forum you either put up or shut up. However, going on past form I doubt if you will do either!…..”

    Correct again I fear, and no surprise at that!

    Once again, your Sliabh Luachra credentials please for making the statement that you did when you called my credibility into question.

    It is a grave discourtesy to deliberately question another posters credibility without good reason. When given every opportunity to back up what you said and you still maintain your bluster without content, then it is crass ignorance. I have no intention what so ever of leaving you off the hook on this one!

    What is the matter anyway……. has your handler the night off or is he on holidays ? Somebody should have told him not to send a boy on a mans job!

  • Harry Flashman

    The operative word being “today”, after the IRA’s campaign has finished.

    You’re right the Provos didn’t start contesting elections until 1981 and then managed to garner between 10 and 12 % of the vote (and that was with massive electoral fraud too by the way), a very small basis on which to claim legitimacy for a war is it not?

    No I’m afraid there was little or no legitimacy or indeed popular support for the Provos throughout the Troubles, the facts are plain to see.

  • Munsterview

    Frank O’Connor’s short story ‘Guests of the Nation’ is intertwined with this particular ambush background.

    A short while before the ambush a British Army detachment who thought that they were on their way home from France instead found themselves in Cobh and then transferred to the Sliabh Luachra Area. They were from a farming background and were upset at the burnings of farmyards and winter hay supplies.

    After one such reprisal two soldiers stayed behind and surrendered to the IRA. They were court-martialed in Knocknagree, found to be acting under orders and not guilty. They also informed Moylan of an incident in Castle island RUC barracks where they heard an informer giving information on the IRA for money.

    They had not seen the individual but said that he was a fine singer and had sung a song ‘ When Ireland belongs to the Irish again’ One of the Vols. on court guard duty said ” I know the bastard…. its Sullivan Breoite, he is back the village “. ( he was a traveller and got the nickname ‘sick sullivan’ from his constantly pretending illness when begging )

    When he was brought to the room and questioned by Moylan, he readily admitted being at Castle island station and said he was there to get information for the IRA and that he had passed this on……. He had, he was informing on both sides !. Moylan put him at ease and asked him for a song. The unfortunate man gave his song, the soldiers were concealed in the next room and they were in no doubt that he was the same person as in the Barracks.

    When confronted by the soldiers he confessed all, he was tried for informing with the soldiers as witness and with his own confession, he was found guilty. He was around sixty ( the eighty was propaganda ) As he had been responsible for Kerry deaths, he was handed over to the Kerry IRA for execution.

    The IRA decided to execute the man and ambush the tan party that they expected to come for the body when reported. Instead the tans send out the eight RIC, one was working with the IRA, he was tipped off and hung back. Seven were killed and eight rifles taken and other gear taken. It was a joint operation between East Kerry and Moylan men, the latter took part without direct authorization from Moylan, he was away at the time of the ambush.

    Months later the whole area was surrounded by thousands of troops who began a great comb out of the area. The IRA were able to go to ground….. not the two soldiers who by now new quite a lot of the local IRA, the younger one went dancing and socializing with them. Brigade decided on their execution….which was opposed at gunpoint by some of the younger battalion officers.

    The event touched everyone deeply, many times I remember women that knew then crying when telling the story and it was a lasting regret for the veteran fighters in their latter years.

  • Alan Maskey

    So there you are Malloy. The Freemasons, the DaValera Code and the delusional ravings of a sad old man.
    I do very vaguely recall reading a review of an IRB some years ago. Perhaps a good book on the topic would give you some leads. You might even get a Dan Brown book out of it.
    If you want answers to this post, you might get some in my replies. Otherwise, enjoy the DeValera Code.

  • Munsterview

    Alan,

    I have repeatedly challenged you to put up or shut up and I predicted that you would do neither…… I was unfortunately correct.

    It is long evident that you have nothing of substance to contribute to any debate and could be ignored save for the fact that you seem to take a perverse delight in gratuitously insulting non Nationalists at every given opportunity and the latter may take your disrespectful attitude as in someway reflective of our ethos, which it most definitely is not.

    Given what in turn you have let fly on, regarding Sinn Fein figures, you are either a persona created for the purpose of denigration, and not a particularly well informed one at that, or a sole member of the one-man-band lunatic eccentric fringe that cause the usual pain in the ass at any gathering or meeting. Whatever, you no longer merit a serious response and after this post you will not get one from me!

    To return to Sliabh Luachra and that particular Celtic cross you seem to set so much store by….. as it so happens I know it rather well….. I should as I was on the committee of Killarney National Graves for years with the Late Redmond O’Sullivan, Donie Coffee and others who took care of it, the Cotter monument across from the grotto, the memorial to the vols. killed by the Free State at Shrone south west of the east village and the one in Noheval graveyard to the vol. killed by the tans in Tipperary!

    In fact the Killarney committee took care of dozens of such Republican and Nationalists monuments through the area and I was also on the committees that had some new ones erected before we handed over care and mantainance to National Graves. Over the years I have also had the honor to speak at events at many of these same monuments.

    North of that monument is the old Noheval Graveyard referred to, where my Great Grand parents and other relatives remains are buried and North west of it not too many miles away is a townland where my family settled as refugees after the Desmond rebellion…… which is still called after our family surname.

    Unlike you I just do not have a passing acquaintance with the area, ( if what you say is true ) I am that area, seed, breed and generation !

    When you questioned my veracity on Sliabh Luachra, you also called my own general credibility into question. In as much as other posters need background to evaluate what other posters have expertise to write on, this is my authority for Sliabh Luachra.

    I now regard this matter as closed, I repeatedly called on you to put up or shut up….. you did neither. I am indifferent as to whether you are a persona or a real person, you have been exposed for what you are, a contrarian, cantankerous nit picker, gratuitously insulting catholic,protestant and dissenter alike when the mood takes you,as it usually do, for your own perverse reasons!

    The other posters can make up their own mind but I for one will not waste another key stroke on you…… as a character in Star Treck was fond of saying….. ” live long and prosper” ……….it is appropriate here as that is where you belong….. out there on Planet Cantankerous!

  • Alan Maskey

    So you dug a bit, did you? You had to bring your granny into it again. Go back to the DaVelera Code, you sad Walter Mity troll.

    I took you for more Listowel direction but you and your American spelling matter not.

  • Steve

    I see. It’s ‘irrelevant’ to leave off a ballot paper the option of unity (according to numerous opinion polls the preferred option of a majority in the 26cos and according to the Life and Times Surveys in the 6 the preferred option of nationalists). Hmm, I love your conception of democracy. As you say though, such a referendum is an appeal to efficiency. Why not be even more efficient on your democratic logic and cancel such referenda, saving money, on the grounds that there can only be one constitutional option and it’s the GFA. Deary me.

  • Hedley Lamarr

    JJ- Try “The IRB- The Irish Republican Brotherhood from the Land League to Sinn Fein” by Owen McGee. It covers 1913-1922 in the context of the previous sixty years. Publisher ‘Four Court Press”.

  • Munsterview

    JJ

    you need to do the ground work first with the the Steward Dynasty and Jacobite Free Masonry as this is where it all had its genesis.

    See archaeology Ireland, spring issue, Vol 24, no 1 issue 91, for Alan Nowell article that gives some of the Celtic Church connection and practices later associated exclusively with Free Masonry, that found their way into this tradition.

    Post the Synod Of Rathbrazil in 1111AD this aspect of the Celtic Church practice was hived off to the Bardic Tradition where the adepts used frequently referred to this as in Aoghan O’Rallaigh and ‘ Slighe an Uaigneas’ ……. the lonely way.

    In the Bishop Berkly memorial church in C of I Cloyne Cathedral, Co Cork, what is involved is graphically depicted in stunningly beautiful stain glass windows.

    Post 1690 William and Mary English FM was ‘reformed’ to become a social / business club. The real practices continued in the Continent both in the Irish Colleges and in the Wild Geese great families and Officer Messes. It is also to be found in all the Catholic Courts in a different version. Studies are further complicated by the fact that the FM movement was hijacked and used by the Illuminati.

    Sufficient to say here that the goals and aspirations of the Ancients for Sacral and Secular society did not accord with NWO plans and from the Invasion of Canada period until the execution of Collins through to the Twenty-Six county republic in 1948, a vast international game of cat and mouse was played out.

    Whatever versions until the French Revolution the Ancient Irish and Scottish order was the culture carrier that manifested on the physical world as the American Revolution ( as covered by Dan Brown) and later in the French Revolution and out own 98 revolution.

    The revolutionaries fleeing Ireland after the 98 and Emmet rebellion gave new vibrancy and urgency to the Ancients in the US…… and as the French Revolution was deemed to have been too excessive and disproportionate to what was achieved a carefull eye was kept on the Irish plans. To current times French Masionary is not recognised world wide and is regarded as a heritical version.

    Post founding of the IRB in the States the study becomes a little more open and less sub rosa.

    Henrymarkow.com has some usefull doccuments leading to others, see the Albert Pike ‘three world war’ doccument in particular.

    I have a reference for a good Steward starting doccument on file somewhere but it is not coming up at present, I will post later. A word of warning however, while the information is there and available on a search, there is all sorts of red herrings and distractions posted with the intention of obscuring and distracting.

    And before the nit pickers descend, yes this is a very broad sweep with many overlaps and over simplifications!

  • JJ malloy

    Thank you Hedley.

    To MV:”13) General Dalton was on Sir Henry Wilsons Staff. Collins had Sir Henry executed not so much for the fact a that he was adviser to the Northern Unionists as for what he was also Sub Rosa involved in. General Dalton was in charge of Collins security and Dalton went to England after the Civil war…… Inner republican / IRB circles always held Dalton responsible for Collins execution. That ended the military option, the IRB reluctantly accepted the Free State the long slow political slog. ”

    Dalton’s name seems to come up a lot. To quote Hopkinson, a respected historian on the period, “Any implications that Emmet Dalton was involved in a conspiracy appear patently absurd, given Dalton’s closeness to Collins and how devastated he was by his death. If Dalton was a former officer in the British Army, so too were Tom Barry and many others on the Republican side.”

    If Dalton was somehow a British agent, one would think that Dalton would have given up Collins during the Tan War, which he could have done easily…yet he did not. He put himselves in many dangerous situations that could have led to his death, including various assassinations with other members of the Squad and the attempted rescure of the Sean MacEoin from the Mount Joy. So, all this time he was a British agent? Doesn’t add up.

    I’m not sure if anyone is still on this thread, but I have taken several hours to examine the sources easily available to me and it seems as though this particularconspiracy theory is lacking. His meetings with his former comrades on his trip do not mean that he was about to give away the Provisional Government’s position. After all, his forces had just completely routed the Republicans from all their fixed positions with relative ease.

    He probably was trying to find some kind of accomodation that could be arrived at by which Republicans would lay down their arms, while retaining their principles intact.

    By all accounts, including his own, he was a depressed and gloomy at this time. His journey, which almost everyone (including Dalton) warned him not to take was just a reckless attempt to mend fences before the war became widespread and embittered, which is exactly what it did.

    *As a side note, it has never been proven when exactly Collins gave the order to kill WIlson. The most detailed and convincing study I have read on that issue, by the recently deceased Peter Hart, came to the tentative conclusion that the order to kill Wilson could have came before the Truce period or many months before it did. Now, I am not an unqualifed supporter of Hart to say the least, but he is a first rate researcher and historian when he leaves his biases out.

  • JJ malloy

    11) Collins was finally pushed out of Government

    That is hardly the description of what happened one would find in the biographies of Collins. In many important aspects Collins was running things, especially on the military side. This is how he was relieved of his “government posts” and became Commander in Chief: He dicated to Griffith “It would be well if the Gov’t issued a…official Instruction to me nominating the War Council of Three, and appointing me to act by special order of the Govt as Commander-in-Chief during the period of hostilities.” The President and Cabinet obliged. He was basically doing whatever he wanted, as there are many letters from others in the Cabinet asking to be kept informed of what he was doing since, after all, the civilian government was supposed to have control over the military side.

    BTW, being the Commander-in-Chief is defintely an important post in a newborn governent in the midst of a Civil War to establish it’s rule over the country. You make it sound like he held no power or position.

    I’ll stop for now, gotta take care of the more mundane activities of my day. Cheers

  • Munsterview

    JJ

    Good start but dig deeper !

    Collins needed unchallenged Commander in Chief status for what was planned.

    With regard to records and what they say, could you now verify how many truck loads of State Records concerning the Free State were destroyed before Devs Government took office and what their general contents were?

  • JJ Malloy

    I plan on it…..I wish I had more time for these things. THis is one of thsoe times I wish I had been a historian…although I’m sure for every professional historian or academic there are dozens more who are enthusiasists.

  • Munsterview

    Been moving in these circles in recent years, It has been a revelation.

    I have found very little actual knowledge of what really went on. Maybe one has has had to be part of the activity so to speak and then step back from it as I did to have a full appreciation. The loyalties and comradeship for example, I know business me who are now quite wealthy, even after the crash and yet their friends from the old days that they were inside with meant more to them than the new power circles they moved in.

    In recent years also I have made the acquaintance of and I am in contact with leading FM figures, some who were Unionists in their younger days where there is easy contact as they too are interested in the big picture. One such person now in the US told me that it was only at a quite senior level that he discovered for himself what was afoot.

    Sullivan Burke, fenian was sworn in to the movement in Chile, half way down the coast and almost a hundred miles inland ( book published by local history soc around twenty years ago) by a group of Irish that he caught up with who were also revolutionaries. The reach of the IRB from India and South Africa to South America was unbelievable.

    You have to look at communist penetration on the 20th, century to get some idea of the scale and extent of it……. and all lines led back to the tobacco shop in Dublin. There is also an intersection with a Catholic sup Rosa stream in Southern France, I have been there also in the company of people who are world wide best selling authors on aspects of the hidden streams.

    I should be back next week and if so I will copy those IRB/ Masonic file references from my other computer, as there is quite a lot of rubbish and distraction out there. Two things at this point……. one find out and firm up the details of Michael Collins son……. that is how Mick was blackmailed by the Brits and caught ‘offside’ during the Treaty, the son is a matter of public record. Second find out exactly what went on behind closed doors with the TDs, invited audience and IRB before the proceedings were open to the public in the first meeting of the first Dail.

    I met some of the Yankee side in 76 when over there and they were fairly impressive people. I do not know what S. W’s game is but there is enough out there from both of us for any discerning person to draw their own conclusions after the Sliabh Luachra exchanges. Good hunting!

  • Munsterview

    JJ

    Regrets, missed this posting re Dalton…30 August 2010 at 10:59 pm

    I am away at present but when I have time to go through my own library I can pick out a few references. The position of Dalton is far more complicated than it appears! Can I park this for the moment?

    In relation to Henry Wilson….. and in respect to Peter Harte he was researching cold. Through past extended family involvements, I had a broad appreciation of events but yet it was only five or six years back when I got time, through early retirement arising from medical reasons, that I began to study what was happening inside other sub rosa world influencing movements. When that included the FM that many inexplicable pieces began to fall into place.

    This is an arena where most established historians are eager to discuss and explore in detail,……in private meetings only……. but yet will not even allude to ‘the big picture’ in their mainstream writing. See for example the Spring issue of Archaeology Ireland 2010 and an article by Alan Nowell for a very rare example of this scholarship surfacing in a mainstream publication. You can find the first 2005 first article at

    http://www.timedance.co.uk/Timedance%20-%20The%20Dance%20of%20the%20Fer%20Cengail.htm

    Here is something currently exclusively associated with Masonic practices yet these details are in the book of Kells and other Irish first millennium manuscripts. They are even carved in High Crosses ! These things were percolating away beneath the surface, they had continuity inside the Bardic Tradition and the Catholic church, but buried deep far from prying eyes!

    So well was it concealed and yet there in plain sight that prior to Alan Nowell’s pioneering work in 2005, mainstream academic historical scholarship was not aware of the significance of this. I raise it here to pose the question….. if something this significant can be hidden in plain sight to the extent that it on only surfaced in the 21 cent. in open discussion……. just what else is there ?

    The political works of the 1916 leaders have been well dissected, it was known at the time as ‘the poets rising’ yet the symbolic and iconographic aspects of their poetry is almost unknown. English Sacral poet, the late Kathleen Raine, a Yeatsan and Blake scholar , at our last meeting in London some years before her death knew more about the real motivations of the key 1916 Poet/leaders than Irish Historical experts.

    In short while the actions of these people have been well analyzed, their psychologies are virtually unknown. Their poetry is a gateway into this. Likewise many of the Irish scholars of the period have written and hidden in plain sight where those of their own mindset can find it.

    The Poems Of Geoffery O’Donoghue, by John Minahane, Aubane Historical Society 2008, will provide a good place to start. In the words of the edithor ” these poems can offer a window into Irish life and thinking in the late 17th, century.

  • Skintown Lad

    Well, that was nice. 400 posts later and here we have it, Ladies and Gentlemen:

    The Justification

    “…something to do with 1919…and er…the IRB and stuff and, em, well there was that Dail thing and basically, we’re allowed to go round killing people in this day and age against the will of the Irish people because, well, those fellas died you know?! And yer man there with the funny name he went to speak with the original fella who starting killing people for Mother Ireland and he said we should plough on. Us, he means, not the other fellas who are also at it but us particularly because he only gave us the go-ahead not them. And bejaysus we can’t stop now…”

    And that’s what were left with. They take away so much and leave us with that. Zealots can be educated but they never learn. Morons.

  • Blair

    To be honest with you it would be something of a surprise if the sort of people who go around murdering other people were capable of articulating a passable excuse for it.

  • Skintown Lad

    Yes, I know what you mean. It is very enlightening, though, when someone evidently as articulate as Munsterview is unable to come up with a cogent reply to that most basic question: why?

    For me, the driver is the cultural assumption that it ‘be’, the reasoning tries its best to follow but the logic just isn’t there.

  • Blair

    Skintown,

    The fact is they had no legal, moral or consequentialist excuse for their terror campaign. Their fantastical attempts at legitimising it by wheeling out some old coffin dodger (ex) from 1919 were risible. Thousands of people were killed and maimed for nothing. I’m more astounded by the fact that people vote in huge numbers for the delightful people who directed the killing.

  • Munsterview

    Blair,

    “…..Thousands of people were killed and maimed for nothing. I’m more astounded by the fact that people vote in huge numbers for the delightful people who directed the killing……”

    Respectfully suggest you send post intended for the Tories directly to the Conservative site….. I doubt if Cameron et al reads slugger!

  • Blair

    Munster,

    You can be sure that the people they employ with responsibility for Northern Ireland do. And that they will be more aware of who we have been talking about than you are.

  • Munsterview

    But of course, dear boy, of course they will !

    That Major chappie, not the brightest I am afraid, but even he got a clear view of what your Wee Failed little Statlet needed once the dust of Canary Warf cleared !

    New laddie much sharper…….. got to admire how he got talks going before he was a wet week in office. Should all be the best of chums by now !

    “……And that they will be more aware of who we have been talking about than you are…..” !

    Correct….., absolutely so…… how perceptive or you……. what a grasp of the niceties of republican politics…… not talking to our lot you know, claims of sell out and all that,……. care to drop a few hints as to the how the talks with you know who are going about you know what ?

    Surely they are keeping you informed this time round…… are they ? No ? Must be the damm Lib Dems…… Tories would surely show you more consideration than that so soon after the election !

  • Blair

    Munster,

    I’m taking from this that you are hinting at unionist insecurities about what republicans were negotiating with the British government back in the day?

    Thank God it turned out to be republican acceptance of the unionist veto and the surrender of their weapons. Otherwise we might have had something to worry about.

    Bound to be a tad disappointing for the Johnnys who were driving around in their cavalcades waving tricolours and shouting “It’s victory so it is!”

    Because actually it was abject defeat, as we both know very well.

  • Munsterview

    Good……. just cheching that the Union Jack tinted glasses were still in place !

    If you need some more more than a few disguarded pairs down here !

    No need for them any more apparently….. I wonder why?

  • Blair

    Munster,

    I’m assuming that it is because the ROI is not a part of the United Kingdom in the way that NI is.

    Though there is of course some talk about them joining the Commonwealth. Does that prospect leave you feeling warm and fuzzy?

  • Munsterview

    Off Topic…..but….

    This is just in. If it is correct, and these guys have an excellent track record in these matters, it means America, Europe and the developed world has just taken a big long running jump out of the brown stuff and there is a light at the end of the tunnel for us all …. a very bright one indeed !

    Puts our little problems in perspective !

    Dear Wealth Daily Reader,

    Forget about oil.

    … For the next 673 years, anyway.

    That’s how much oil and natural gas a group of geologists recently learned how to unlock – right here in North America.

  • JJ malloy

    that will never happen

  • JJ malloy

    Last night I looked at Coogan’s treatment of the subject, and I re-read Hart’s chapter on Michael Collins and Sir Henry Wilson this morning on the way to work. Coogan’s wasn’t very convincing, IMO. Hart certainly didn’t have any family connections or inside information, but that shouldn’t necessarily hamper a historian’s investigation. (Besides, on occasion he was apparently able to interview dead people so I wouldn’t be too sure about him researching cold.) He did examine in exhaustive detail all the available evidence, all the various statements of those who were close to Collins, Dunne, the IRA in Britain, the IRB, the Squad, all the papers and archives relating to that revolutionary period. There is a mass of conflicting and confusing evidence. Many of the accounts cannot be reconciled with others, and many players contradict themselves.

    It is a fascinating murder mystery of sorts. (well, we know who did but other than that there is debate) There were so many players and several different possible motives. And, of course, the consequences of the assassination as well as the stature of the victim are enough to make it particularly compelling. When was the order given, who gave it, what was it trying to achieve, were the two men acting on their own in an attempt to reunite the Irish nationalists or just strike a blow for their fellow countrymen? Were they seeking matrydom and vindication?

    There really is no smoking gun in regards to Collins being involved, so no one will know for sure. (Although a few people claim to have a seen evidence of a written order from Collins to Dunne ordering the hit in June 22, but no one has produced it).

    For my own part, I think several of explanations given over the years could be true. Hart does make a relatively strong case that Dunne, in late spring 1922, would have been prone to act on his own.
    “If Reggie Dunne thought to vindicate himself and be a hero, he succeeded. It is striking how many conflicts {in his life} were put to rest by his action. Art O’Brien and other anti-treatyites went from criticism to extravagant praise. The Cumann na MBan members who previously reviled him became instant supporters. He had taken a political stand and he was assured that his parents would be well provided for.”….
    His conclusion: “There is no solid evidence to support a conspiracy theory linking Michael Collins or anyone else to the murder. In the absence of such evidence, we must accept the assertions of the murderers that they acted alone, in the…belief that Wilson was responsible for Catholic deaths in Belfast. My own hypothesis as to Dunne’s and O’Sullivan’s motives cannot be definitely proven, but if fits not only with what we know of them and the London IRA and IRB, but also with the general anarchy and proliferation of revenge killings in Ireland at the time….For two young Irish idealists to take matters into their own hands and shoot a hated foe was not a particularly unusual political act in the summer of 1922.”

    Who knows….interesting reading all the same.

  • JJ malloy

    “With regard to records and what they say, could you now verify how many truck loads of State Records concerning the Free State were destroyed before Devs Government took office and what their general contents were?”

    Sure, records may have been destroyed. I don’t doubt a few of those in power feared reprisals for their role in executions and other actions during the civil war. But that doesn’t stop one involved from spilling his beans years after the fact.

  • Blair

    JJ,

    Why not?

  • Finbar

    It is possible, but unlikely. Nationalism will not die away anytime in the next several generations, bar some earth shattering event on the world stage.