“While we are a city of culture there has to be a recognition that we’re not part of the UK.”

Londonderry may have been shortlisted to become the UK’s first City of Culture in 2013, but the Sinn Féin party leader on the council, Maeve McLaughlin, is not happy.

Ms McLaughlin said she believed the bid was “very heavily weighted in terms of cementing our relationship with London”. “While we are a city of culture there has to be a recognition that we’re not part of the UK.

“We are not opposing the bid, but we are putting down a marker at this stage and saying we should be exploring, rather than cementing, this relationship. “There is a huge onus on the team that’s been put together to lead this bid to put in writing how they will address the issue of the tens of thousands of nationalists and republicans in this city and region who do not recognise themselves as part of the UK,” she said.

She’s wrong on both counts…

, , , , , ,

  • Spotty Muldoon

    Boys the dear, she is wrong, wrong, wrong. Ms McLaughlin is one of these people who talks complete rubbish in a very confident tone. I think the quote amplifies this point perfectly.

  • abc123

    Can she really be so stupid to say “we’re not part of the UK”?!

    Maybe she actually believes some of the nonsense from SF HQ.

  • David Crookes

    Ms McLaughlin has set aside both the GFA and the twin referendums which effectively cemented it. Can we expect her to be disciplined for what is a clear transgression of SF party policy? Or will she be excused, on the grounds that she has an intellectual problem with factuality?

    Anyone who has an affection for Ms McLaughlin’s city is bound to regard her latest statement as nasty, unhelpful, and immature. There is a huge onus on the team that’s been put together to lead this bid to put in writing how they will address the issue of the many hundred of babies in this city and region who do not recognize themselves as either British or Irish.

    Get a life.

  • Wabbits

    Maybe Maeve would do well to get out The Life of Brian DVD from Extravision. Here’s a little snippet for her:

    Reg: “All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?”

    Attendee: “Brought peace?”

    Reg: “Oh, peace – shut up!”

    Reg: “There is not one of us who would not gladly suffer death to rid this country of the Romans once and for all.”

    Dissenter: “Uh, well, one.”

    Reg: “Oh, yeah, yeah, there’s one. But otherwise, we’re solid.”

    The woman is deluded. Once again the Shinners fail to take notice of what really matters to the people of Derry. That’ll be jobs and opportunity. As Hume once said Maeve, “You can’t eat a flag”

  • Brian Walker

    Never fear, this will do no damage. That would only happen if SF went back of themselves, looked silly and denounced the bid and I don’t see any sign of that. Bid supporters – or agnostics even- should tread softly, if at all. What about an Irish towns of culture competition that Derry could bid for as well?

  • Coll Ciotach

    well done Maeve – if the unionists refuse to accept that they cannot command people to have a UK mentality and accommodate that then pull the plug

  • J Kelly

    This issue had to be spoke about the people writing the bid had nonsemse like inviting oxford and cambridge to row on teh foyle, invite london football temas to play in derry it was stacking up like derry is a little london. About time.

  • This sounds like S/F trying to play both ends against the middle.

    It will not work. If Derry becomes the City of Culture as I hope. It will mean jobs, tourism and, most importantly, revenue for all of Ireland.

    S/F need to remember: governments cant just go out and rob a bank or sell cigarettes and petrol on the black economy, they actually need to encourage people, especially tourists, to come here and spend money.

    The lady needs to forget the few dissidents and speak for all of the people all of the time.

    In any event since Derry, even its disputed name, is deeply embedded in Irish/UK history I see the award as more of a win win achievement.

  • David Crookes

    I wonder if the subtextual motive is basically electoral, as with Dev’s visit to the German Embassy in 1945.

  • Coll Ciotach

    Pippakin – surely she is speaking for all the people not just those who wish to promote an United Kingdom agenda

  • Dec1

    Whilst she is factually incorrect, she’s clearly representing the views of the vast majority of Derry people.

  • David Crookes

    If there is a wish I sometimes have (apart from winning the lottery) it is that I had been a fly on the wall when Dev marched himself into the German Embassy to ‘commiserate’ with the German people on the death of AH. I would have loved to have seen the look on the ambassadors face! otherwise it is one part of our history best forgotten.

    Coll Ciotach

    Did I not say that. If Derry gets the award it wil be a win for the whole of Ireland. In case you hadnt noticed we are in dire straits here. It is not the time to be nitpicking between incompetent governments. It is a time to be making the maximum profit and jobs from the opportunity.

    Dec1

    Read the above and inwardly digest.

  • Why is she so wrong?

    Derry is not just another provincial town. It is different. Geographically, culturally, attitudinally different. It always was. It always will be. The London connection is part, but only a small part of the tradition (and most evident in that grotesque BT blockhouse and the more recent gimcrack constructions).

    The 1920-21 mess made it a frontier town (those who recall the late 60s-late 80s may even have used the Dodge City analogy).

    All that is a Unique Selling Point. Some of it should be cherished.

    Dundee would not hesitate to trumpet its difference and distance from Dalston. Kenmare is not Killiney.

    The City of Culture circus is not meant to homogenize, but to celebrate the variety of what we are, and are not. Else why are we all tourists?

  • David Crookes

    Thanks, pippakin (#12), it ranks with the speech that Churchill made in Rome eighteen years before! Here is part of that speech. “I could not help being charmed, like so many other people have been, by Signor Mussolini’s gentle and simple bearing and by his calm, detached poise in spite of so many burdens and dangers. Secondly, anyone could see that he thought of nothing but the lasting good, as he understood it, of the Italian people, and that no lesser interest was of the slightest consequence to him. If I had been an Italian I am sure that I should have been whole-heartedly with you from the start to finish in your triumphant struggle against the bestial appetites and passions of Leninism. I will, however, say a word on an international aspect of fascism. Externally, your movement has rendered service to the whole world. The great fear which has always beset every democratic leader or a working class leader has been that of being undermined by someone more extreme than he. Italy has shown that there is a way of fighting the subversive forces which can rally the masses of the people, properly led, to value and wish to defend the honour and stability of civilised society. She has provided the necessary antidote to the Russian poison. Hereafter no great nation will be unprovided with an ultimate means of protection against the cancerous growth of Bolshevism.”

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Malcolm the voice of reason.

    What a great chance for Derry to confidently showcase herself as a vibrant Irish town with recognised British links.

    SF are spot on here!

  • Dec1

    Pippakin

    I’m doubt the people of Dingle or Doolin particularly care which small town wins the UK’s First City of Culture. Persoanlly I could care less though I suppose I’m secretly rootingg for Norwich if only to highlight the utter waste of everyone’s time this thing is. (How many jobs flow to the eventual winner is clearly up for debate). I’m fairly certain I hate unemployment almost as much as you do, myself but all I was stating is that McLaughlin, aside from the constitutional blooper, is simply articulating the Derry electorate’s viewpoint. Isn’t that one of the duties of politicians?

  • David Crookes

    Not that I am a supporter of Churchill, but had not Mussolini joined with the Nazis he might have introduced an acceptable choice of government. It was Mussolini who said ‘in such a huge grannary you can expect a few rats!”

    More importantly by 1945 everyone knew where Nazism had led and Germany was one big waste ground.

    Dec1

    It is not the job of politicians to be inciting division when they should be encouraging cooperation. Nothing will change because of the City of Culture award, everything will still be the way it is, but some, hopefully most, will have benefited. By the way Im not positive but I think Glasgow had it and did very well out of it.

  • Tochais Síoraí

    Maybe if she said……

    ‘While we are a city of culture there has to be a recognition that we don’t want to be part of the UK….’

    everyone would be happy.

    Maybe even Pedantic Pete.

  • Alias

    She’s discovering what it means to be a non-sovereign nation but forgetting that her party voted to renounce those sovereign rights that are a part of national rights.

    The state promotes the culture of the nation within a nation-state and within a transnational state such as the UK, so if you give your sovereignty to a foreign state then it will of course promote its culture and not yours.

    This right to self-determination is enshrined under international law in the first article of the UN’s ICCPR and in the first article of the UN’s ICESCR as “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”

    Since the state is the means by which the nation “freely determine” and “freely pursue” that nation’s “cultural development” that nation has no means to do that when it has renounced its right to self-determination and declared that it has no right to live within a nation-state. So you end up with the culture of the nation that controls the state, i.e. British culture.

    It’s simply crying over the milk after you’ve poured it down the drain because you preferred a nice glass of Coke.

  • Oh dear! much more of this ‘tunnel vision’ and the City of Culture award will go to bloody Birmingham.

    I mean Birmingham for gods sake!

    In fact if I had to put my money on it. I would say the Brit govt would rather it came to any city other than one in the north of Ireland.

  • Alias

    What’s the problem? The British state will promote its culture as is its proper function, but the plus side is that it isn’t a nation-state but a transnational state that also includes the Irish nation and its culture. Therefore you are included in a “UK of equals” with “parity of esteem” between the four non-sovereign nations. 😉

  • Dec1

    Pippakin

    By the way Im not positive but I think Glasgow had it and did very well out of it.

    Glasgow won the European City of Culture award in 1990. Apples and oranges etc

  • Alias

    Actually if the Brit govt dont get their fingers out of the pie as soon as the award is made, and let Derry get on with its own promotional activities I for one will be very upset!

  • KieranJ

    Of course Derry is a part of the UK.

    Just look at how warmly its people greeted British troop during Operation Motorman.

  • Neil

    Oh dear! much more of this ‘tunnel vision’ and the City of Culture award will go to bloody Birmingham.

    I mean Birmingham for gods sake!

    Hold on, you mean Birmingham with a population of a million people? Birmingham as in the birth place of Brum Beat? The home of half of Led Zeppilin, the ELO and more? The home of the oldest jazz festival in the UK? Birmingham with it’s National Indoor Arena and O2 Academy? With it’s dozens of theatres? Birmingham with ‘one of the largest collections of Pre-Raphaelite art in the world’? Birmingham as in the home of Washington Irving and Arthur Conan Doyal?

    Why would they get it eh? When Derry’s in the mix what does Birmingham have (apart from a population that somewhat eclipses the 83k people who still haven’t left Derry)?

    What with Derry’s Nerve Centre and um, the Strand Bar before 9 at night (when the blood starts to flow). Oh and the walls, mustn’t forget them. Especially in the context of celebrating diversity – after all Derry’s citizens do admirably well coping with the diversity of the two different types of white Christian living in the place.

    Derry’s a shithole. I lived there. Tell me in plain English what it is you think Derry has to offer that nearly every other city in the UK hasn’t got in spades (apart from sectarian violence, obviously)?

    In fact if I had to put my money on it I’d say the Brit government would be off their tits on glue to give it to Derry, given that a) there’s fuck all in Derry and b) in terms of celebrating diversity, Derry’s contribution is trying to murder people who think that their shared God did/did not change the bread and wine into flesh and blood.

  • Dec1

    Thanks, now I know the difference. I suspect then that this is the UK attempting to jump on a successful advertising band wagon.

    I know what will make everyone happy, Dublin does a ‘City of Culture’ award and nominates Belfast or even bloody Birmingham. Hows that for equality.

  • buile suibhne

    The City of Culture bid is no threat to anyone’s sense of nationality unless their nationality is insecure.

    This is a great opportunity for Derry to look beyond a narrow sectarian position and recognise that both/ and can work for everyone!

  • joeCanuck

    Best to just ignore the bogtrotter and the begrudgers.
    I have always liked Derry. I consider it my second home, my mother having been a Derry woman and having gone to Grammar School there.

  • Driftwood

    Neil forgot to add Slade, Black Sabbath, Wolves, West Brom etc.

    Can I just add a ps to ask what happened to Gonzo’s thread? I suspect legal factors but it would be nice to know.

  • Neil

    Im guessing you hate Derry and love Birmingham. I dont think Birmingham is as good as you think, mind you it does have that motorway thingy. And, I seriously doubt Derry is as bad your memory suggests.

    The thing about this award is its a method of enticing visitors to the chosen city to spend their money in great quantities. I would like that money to come to Ireland please, in large denominations of used notes. Is that too much to ask? I dont give a flying fuck which church, if any, either the residents of Derry or the visitors attend.

  • Dec1 @ 01:53 PM:

    I know I’m risking something here, but I thought it was “the European Capital of Culture”, and the “city of culture” thing was a newly-minted, UK-specific imitation. I expect to be corrected.

    Somewhere on the net there is a study of the regeneration resulting from being designated “Capital of Culture” (after all, the EU is rarely slow in publicising its excesses successes). The programme has now been expanded: there were eight or nine “Capitals of Culture” for the millennium. I think there are three for 2010: Essen, Istanbul and Pécs. The last of which is semi-twinned with Peterborough (better believe it!), and uses the slogan “The Borderless City” — which probably sounds better in the original Hungarian, and might usefully be borrowed by Derry. I believe, too, that Ireland gets a nomination around 2020, and the UK a couple of years after.

    Now this “culture” lark. No one in a moment of sanity would suggest Birmingham is anything less than multicultural. There might even be a few inhabitants who can speak decipherable English.

    Norwich (of which I am fond, and is similarly linguistically-challenged) has occasional parallels with Derry, not excluding a bloody, insurrectionary past. It also feels itself isolated and “end-of-the-line”: natural when the service is dependent on Class 86 locos, and later on Class 90 Virgin Trains cast-offs.

    I’d like to see a survey on local opinions: do the Norvicians see themselves primarily as British, English or East Anglian? There is a small contingent of beer-bellied, tattooed gents with bull terriers who’d give a predictable response. Beyond that, I recollect anyone from more than a day’s walk being a “furrener”, especially the black-leg labour imported to break the agricultural workers strike. The spirit of Boudicca still walks those frozen Icenian wastes (and the wind is straight off the Urals for the next few days).

  • Mike

    So, does Sinn Féin in Derry/Londonderry oppose the Good Friday Agreement now?

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    >>…home of Washington Irving and Arthur Conan Doyal?<< Neil Birmingham does not get to claim Conan Doyle just because he worked there the odd time, c'mon! I don't think anyone calling Derry a shithole can do so whilst bigging up birmingham. It would be like Paisley calling Allister a bitter un reconstructed bigot. true.......but what a cheek!

  • Neil

    I may be overselling it a bit but it’s to underline the ridiculousness of the whole thing. I ask again, what does Derry have? I understand people being fond of a place where they grew up etc., but at the end of the day it’s a simple question: what does Derry have going for it?

    Diversity is a theme mentioned on the web site for the City of Culture award. In terms of diversity in Derry, there is very little and given the hostility displayed towards fellow Christians who happen to follow the same God in a different way.

    IMO it boils down to the fact that Derry’s a tiny little city, in any other country on Earth it would be a medium sized town. At least Birmingham has some people in it, along with all the ‘culture’ on offer. I ask again, what is the culture that Derry has to offer that sets it aside from any other city on the list?

  • Dec1

    Malcolm

    I know I’m risking something here, but I thought it was “the European Capital of Culture”, and the “city of culture” thing was a newly-minted, UK-specific imitation. I expect to be corrected.

    According to wikipedia, the European City of Culture programme was renamed the European Capital of Culture in 1999.

  • joeCanuck

    what is the culture that Derry has to offer that sets it aside from any other city on the list?

    Neil,
    you might ask Nobel Prize-winning poet Seamus Heaney, former Undertones frontman Feargal Sharkey, or actress Bronagh Gallagher. Anyone of them will give you the goods.

  • Rory Carr

    I take it you won’t be voting for Derry then, Neil.

  • Neil @ 03:40 PM

    You are fully entitled to judge what amounts to:

    a tiny little city, in any other country on Earth.

    For the record, Derry is an urban area of 90,000 of which 83,000 live within the chartered city. That’s comparable with Durham, Worcester, Bath in England: all of which are definitely and proudly cities.

    I see that Maza, ND, has a population of five, but was recognised by the last US census as a city.

    The resident population of the mighty City of London amounts to 8½% of that of Derry.

    Be careful who you are dissing. Ahem!

    Dec1 @ 03:49 PM:

    Thanks for that. You learn something new every day.

  • Davros

    The world capital of shoulder chip manufacturing.

  • Marcionite

    there goes Alias and his obscurities about sovereignty.

  • old school

    More proof that most PSF supporters did not even read the GFA. They simply voted Yes, because Martin said Yes and Ian said No.
    There was a letter in the Derry Journal last week by a concerned citizen asking why Sinn Fein were canvassing for the U.K City of Culture, given the obvious connotations.
    This is their (several months) belated comeback to an obvious question.
    Like the guys with fatigues and sunglasses in Stabane last Sunday. This is phoney politics and posing whilst playing to their audience.
    Pretending to be rad whilst administering British Rule.

  • LabourNIman

    You know what, if the majority of the people in ‘Derry’ don’t want to be city of culture.. then they it doesn’t happen.

    If peoples, frankly, ignorant views cannot see the benefit that this would bring to their local community while helping celebrate all that is supposed to be good about the city, then they don’t deserve it.

    I’m sure republicans will be bothered by this, but for one year lets actually try and be civilised and do something that would actually benefit.. wishful thinking I guess.

  • joeCanuck

    wishful thinking I guess

    Yes, given that SF are expert moaners.

  • pinni

    The poor woman is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

  • Mr E Mann

    Derry is a city where the substantial majority of residents reject UK sovereignty and want to join a different state. It’s a city where some current community leaders, still young, have engaged in armed violence against Britain. The middle-aged can remember a time when the UK was militarily unable to exercise authority in some neighborhoods. The most interesting parts of the city are full of huge murals glorifying military insurrection against the UK. Surely making Derry a “UK city of culture” would say more about Britain than Derry. What it would say would be funny as heck. SF should love this idea. When did Irish people lose their sense of humor?

  • Mr E Mann

    Actually the ‘young community leaders’ have, yet again, been engaging in violence against their own.

    For the intellectually challenged the Brits have always been able to exercise authority. If you think not try living in the W Bank. The Brits chose not to enforce the law because they had no problem controlling the situation. No one shits on their own doorstep and Derry is a long way from the Brits door step. As for the occasional bomb. You are referring to a country that let a city the size of Coventry be demolished to save their spy codes. A building here or there wont shift them.

    The city of culture would be a good thing for the whole of Ireland, forget S/F and republicanism, think employment, tourism and the possible opportunity to get rid of some of the monumental debt everyone in this country is labouring under.

    A real republican would put his countrys future not its past first.

  • joeCanuck

    The Irish people haven’t lost their sense of humour. It’s just that the few hard core SF types never had any; generally a rather dour lot who are happier moaning than having fun.

  • joeCanuck

    But victimhood doesnt work if you are smiling.

  • joeCanuck

    Agree pippakin.
    BTW just call me joe. I added the Canuck bit when another guy called joe started blogging.

  • joeCanuck

    Not blogging, of course; commenting on Slugger.

  • Hey Joe!

    I always wanted to say that!

    I totally agree with you about the shinners, no sense of humour at all, unless of course they are killing someone. Oops shouldnt have said that…

  • Joe Canuck

    By the Way you should try blogging. A great way to let off steam and give your imagination an airing!

  • Medillen

    The commentators on this site have obviously not been listening to the debate today in Derry.

    The City of Culture proposed bid has been recently made known to a strategy group. Its emphasis was heavily (if not exclusively) on Derry being a potential minature version of London. With proposals like bringing the oxford
    /cambridge boat race to the Foyle, what it called ‘home county’ premiership teams to Derry and the Brit Awards. There was little or no mention of our Irish culture in the city and Sinn Fein rightly objected. These objections were leaked (by you know who) and a six county story ensued. However the objections to the bid are extemely legimate and needed to be aired anyway. As an Irish city trapped in the UK, for now, I am happy for the proposal to go forward but only if it reflects the real culture of my city, not a contrived one by the luvvies, in order to win a competition. I am delighted to hear the bid will now be amended.

  • lamhdearg

    Maybe they could do a british lions on it and make it an uk and ireland city of culture, to be honest someone in sf had to say something to cover their backs i doubt we will hear much more about it from them.

  • Medillen @ 10:18 PM:

    The Foyle (unless there’s a strong northerly) ought to be a good rowing river. But Oxford/Cambridge up (or even down) the Foyle? They’re not men enough! My money would just be on Cambridge: they have to train on the Fenland waters in mid-winter, so they’d know the meteorological score. The idea of a regatta, though, is a good one: especially if there’s a chain across the stream.

    As for lamhdearg @ 10:23 PM, Heaven help the rest of the world if the men of Derry truly take to rugby, the way they do in (say) the Hartlepools (a mate of mine once calculated that 80% of the male population of that town had to be engaged to provide the number of rugby teams playing each Saturday). The hard men of Limerick would be in full quiver.

    But culture? Hardly.

    We are dealing with a planned city here. Look at what Viollet-le-Duc did with Carcassone (for good or ill). Now apply large amounts of money to Derry, its walls and its 17th-18th-19th century buildings. It could easily, and quite affordably (with gentrification), be a gem. Bishop Street Within and its environs have potential to represent the best surviving image of a period of Ireland’s history.

    The area inside the walls (though buggered about by recent events) still maintains an essential integrity.

    Then there’s the Guildhall. Sell that as a full and positive appreciation of Victorian, Edwardian and Georgian (George V-ian) brickwork and glasswork. For it’s period, it’s small, but perfect in most details.

  • Medillen

    Malcolm, there are loads of reasons why Derry could be a serious condender for a city of culture (despite tonights Spotlight) but that proposal must be showing Derry as it is, not as some may like it to be, for some UK competition.

  • old school

    Medellin, heartwarming to hear PSF got all principled over a boat race and the Brit awards, yet supported the removal of Articles 2 and 3, which stated Derry was part of the island of Ireland.
    You can{t speak out of both sides of the mouth at the same time.
    BTW, guess who got the private security contract to protect the Canadian Royal Navy and Royal Marines when they docked in Derry bedecked in Royal insignia?
    None other than the highly principled Provos.

  • Lugs Brannigan

    I hope Derry becomes the UK’s City of Culture in the same way as I hoped Tyrone’s Peter Canavan would be voted the BBC’s Sportsman Of The Year a few years ago. Canavan was clearly robbed. Everyone knows he topped the poll. The BBC knew he wasn’t really British so discarded the result. Derry hasn’t a hope.

  • Spotty Muldoon

    A good friend from Belfast said to me once “Derry is the place you pass through to get to somewhere nicer.” I kind of agree with that, and also agree that if Derry were to win the bid, the wider North West would benefit. As the posts so far explain, Derry isn’t to everyone’s liking. What place is? But it is a gateway to beautiful sites politically North and South of the border. That’s the selling point. Now, if we could just get the random shooting and murder off the streets … Pity the Shinners couldn’t manage that instead of talking ahite all the time.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    It would be churlish not to wish Derry/Londonderry well. It shares so much in common with Liverpool another place of culture….for example most of its successful ex-residents choose to live eleswhere while singing “The Town I loved so Well”.
    But lets not lose sight of what this is all about……..MONEY.
    If I was a journalist in Derry and worried about my career prospects in an economic downturn, Id be forming a PR company to assist in the bid.
    No doubt when we see a list of backers for the Project we will see loadsa familiar journalistic names who couldnt resist the call to assist……er for a consultancy fee.

    Nobody is going to get poor out of this. Some might even get rich.
    Rather like the Mel Brooks comedy “The Producers” it doesnt actually matter (to the PR companies) whether Derry/Londonderry succeeds or fails.

    For myself, I look forwars to Guild Hall Square being packed with Derry residents cheerfully waving their national flag (er both of them) while the people who actually awarded the title cringe and the Daily Mail goes mad.

    “Gin and tonics all round…..and may I look at your brochure on villas in spain?”

  • Medillen

    Without re-entering a debate had years ago, may I remind you Old School. That the removal of Articles 2 and 3 were the 26 county Governments’ contribution to historical compromise to move us out of conflict. To most northern republicans and nationalists, whilst Articles 2 and 3 were nice sentiments, they were ultimately meaningless in practice, as they stood idly by.

    As regards foriegn navys docking in Derry, I welcome them all, it is a port after all.

  • old school

    Can you explaing Medellin, Why Gerry Adams and many Northern nationalists were members of the Irish National Congress, which was formed in 1990 to “defend Articles 2 and 3”, yet only a few years later was telling us punters the same articles were “meaningless”.
    If you think a constitutional claim of territory is “meaningless”, how can you possibly get upset about something as trivial as the Brit Awards??
    Should Argentina drop it´s claim over the Falklands or Spain of Gibraltar? They are politically astute people, and don´t do deals and gimmicks for short term gain.

  • old school

    If you welcome the Royal Navy, I take it you have no problem with British Army bases in the North also?
    Are you one of these New Sinn Fein types?

  • Medillen

    No old school, I have been around for quite a while, don’t worry. A foreign ship docking at a port temporarily whether it be British or Argentinian cannot be compared with establishing a military base, have a bit of sense. I campaigned for the retention of articles 2 and 3 as a northern republican, but realised that as part of an overall compromise I would be willing to see these meaningless words replaced with a meaningful process that would bring these aspirations into a reality.

  • Medillen

    By the way, old school, are you one of these new super republican types, absent for the years of the struggle but who have found new courage as keyboard warriors.

  • old school

    Articles 2 and 3 stated a fact.
    That the Nation of Ireland was constituted by the entire island of Ireland.
    Why vote to scrap something you believe is true other than short term expediency.
    Youd never see the Unionists bend on that one.
    Having voted against it, and accepting, through the GFA, the legitimacy of the 6 Counties within the United Kingdom, Sinn Fein just look silly now trying to backtrack, and act radical again.

  • old school

    Typical response from PSF.
    Try to emasculate or belittle opposing voices by asking who has the biggest c*ck.
    Bit rich calling someone a keyboard warrior…from a keyboard.
    I dont have to blow my trumpet for anyone. Needless to say I was a member of your party before you left me in 1997.

  • Alias

    old school, they’re not trying to backtrack on their renunciation of national rights, since that isn’t possible. What they’re doing is trying to create the bogus impression that they haven’t renounced them in either (constitutional) deed or freewheeling spirit.

    Part of the creative ambiguity that Whitehall used in writing the GFA was downplay the importance of constitutional and international law so that those national rights could be renounced in such a way that those who renounced them could be led to believe that they had done no such thing or, failing that deception, that constitutional and international law was just an “empty formula of words” which should be considered as solemn and as binding as a whore’s promise that her five-dollar blowjob is the world’s greatest.

    Because the British state intended to perpetuate a major fraud on those within its sovereign territory who were denied their national rights, it of course needed the collusion of their leadership. So, although they have been led to endorse the legitimacy of British sovereignty and to renounce their own former right to national self-determination, they need that leadership to reassure them that (a) they have done no such thing, or (b) that if they have done such a thing that it is just a short term expediency that can be undone (by, presumably, requesting that the Irish state abrogates the treaty it signed with the British state and thereby puts itself in violation of international law).

    So, this is simply presentation that is designed to consolidate their supporters within the UK by assuring them that they are promoting the Irish nationalist agenda that they have betrayed and not a British state agenda that they now support. It’s a bit like the stories that leaked from the recent talks process where it was reported that photos of the queen were turned upside down by the Shinners – these are there way of assuring the muppets that they’re ‘republicans.’ Other examples are using the term “the North” and giving graveside orations for those who the touts giving the oration put into those graves. Still, the muppets lap it up…

  • mcclafferty

    The name should be returned to Derry and not be up for discussion. In the interim, they should return Donegal to its original Ulster jurisdiction as it was gerrymandered to ensure a “majority support” for British rule in Ulster.

    Fact:
    An old Irish word “Daire” makes historical reference to the name Derry dating back to the sixth century AD and maintained that name up until the name was changed from Derry in 1613 during the Plantation of Ulster to reflect the establishment of the city by the London guilds. .

    Fact:
    “Partition of Ireland in the early 1920s was to have a massive direct impact on County Donegal. Partition cut the county off, economically and administratively, from Derry, which had acted for centuries as the county’s main port, transport hub and financial centre. Derry, together with West Tyrone, was henceforward in a new, different jurisdiction officially called Northern Ireland . Partition meant that County Donegal was now almost entirely cut off from the rest of the jurisdiction it now found itself in, the new independent state called the Irish Free State, known since April 1949 as the Republic of Ireland. Only a few miles of the county is physically connected by land to the rest of the Republic. The existence of this ‘border’, cutting Donegal off from her natural hinterlands in Derry City and West Tyrone, has greatly exacerbated the economic difficulties of the county since partition”.

    The reason this was done was because much of the county was seen as being a bastion of Gaelic culture and the Irish language. It now holds the second-largest Gaeltach area in the country.

    If Donegal was returned to its original jurisdiction, I doubt the Brits would have the “majority rule” in Ulster today.

  • lamhdearg

    mcclafferty,
    I also would like co Donegal to be included, In a new nation of ulster,an ulster with a constitution that requires a majority of 75% of its people to vote it out of existence (into a union with Britian or with the ROI)pipe dream i know. However this is where i must get argumentative, At the last count Donegals population of under 150 thousand (not all of voting age) would not give irish nationlists a majority, On being split from the rest of ulster having a detrimental effect, ” sure havin we all been all goin there fer years to get er heads pace and spendin er money” finaly “original jurisdiction” i take it you refer to
    the nine county Elizbethan model?.

  • lamhdearg

    add on, i am off to bed,catch you later.

  • mcclafferty

    My understanding that as of today County Donegal’s population exeeds 250,000 people!

  • mcclafferty

    Have a good night sleep, as sure as I’m posting here, one day Ireland will be united. What puzzles me the most is that all the people who are loyal to England still stay in Ireland? Why don’t they go and live in England and they can espouse all their allegiance to the Brits?

    Regardless of how any Unionist feels, Ireland is one nation comprised of 32 counties and it is Ireland not the UK. I realize how the Brits had to destroy Irish Catholics, gerrymander the island and oppress the Irish culture, but at the end of the day… it is the Loyalist/Unionist whatever you want to label them – that are the foreigners in Ireland. You obtained the north by fraud. You are nothing more then carpetbaggers and always will be.

    Irish history, if it hasn’t been the revisionist version by the Brits, tells the true story of Ireland and it’s subjugation to the Crown.

    Sleep well.

  • bigchiefally

    mcclafferty – how long do you have to live in a locality before you stop becoming a foreigner? Do you qualify if you were born there? How about if your parents were? Grandparents?

    By your reasoning most of those alive today in both north and south american, who arent of “native” stock, should be considered as foreigners. Should the average Brazilian, Argentinian or Canadian be considered a foreigner in their homes?

    I think if you set the bar high enough everyone is a foreigner, because at some point their ancestors probably pushed out someone else to live there. In South Africa for instance, are the Zulus who the Afrikaners and British pushed out in natal actually native? They themselves moved out others before them.

  • mcclafferty

    bigchiefally, – I understand what you are saying but in Ireland’s case it’s a bit different in my perspective because of the persecution that took place of the Irish both north and south under British rule in order to maintain its hold in Ireland. Ireland’s history is a sad history from the time of Cromwell, the Black and Tans and on into the present day.

    Ireland was one country with no borders. When Britain conquered it, every means to eradicate the Irish were taken. The Irish were treated as second-class citizens in their own country. Forbidden to openly practice their faith, their land was taken from them, they couldn’t vote without owning land, they were spit upon and treated like “white niggers” of Europe by the British. If it weren’t for the IRB the 26 counties in the south would still be under British rule today. Unfortunately, Michael Collins under the threat of war by the British government did not negotiate a 32 county Republic at that time. Big mistake on his part.

    Prior to the Stormont Agreement, Irish-Catholics in the north weren’t treated much better. The Irish were not allowed to fly the tri-color, there were no jobs to be had for Catholics, any sort of civil rights movements taken place in the late 60’s and 70’s were being crushed and its leaders imprisoned or murdered (i.e., Bloody Sunday). Loyalists randomly burned Catholics out of their homes, deliberately marched through predominately catholic areas for purpose of intimidation with their (Orange Day parades) – which they still do to this day, and the collusion between the crown’s servants and the Loyalist paramilitaries led to many deaths of innocent Irish Catholics and I’m talking only about the last 40 years of unrest in the north, all in the name of keeping Ulster British.

    It is believed that if the British had not gerrymandered Donegal (the furthest most northern county in all Ireland) they would have lost any chance of maintaining British rule in Ulster after partition.

    What bothers me most about this issue is that Ireland is Britain’s last colony and why? Don’t tell me it’s because the majority of its citizens wish to belong to the UK. We already know how that came about – it was the game of gerrymandering.

    England is a beautiful country but with so many issues of it’s own to deal with it. It is costing the British government unbelievable amounts of money to maintain the north of Ireland and for what reason? Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution clearly stated that ‘”the whole of Ireland formed one national territory”. But in order to again ensure British rule in the north, the Constitution was amended in Stormont in 1998 to read: “The Irish nation as a community of individuals with a common identity rather than as a territory”? That doesn’t make any sense as there are two distinct communities with two separate identities in the north – one loyal to Irirish nationalism/republic and one loyal to the UK? So how does that amendment make any sense? It was, again, intended to ensure British rule in the north of Ireland.

    My contention is still the fact that the “majority” in Ulster loyal to the Crown was a false count to begin with it because of all the gerrymandering that went on in order to ensure such an outcome. What do you think would happen if the entire 32 counties were part of that vote to reunite Ireland or even just Donegal?

  • old school

    mcclafferty, unfortunately Nationalist Constitutionalists who negotiated away the Irish Nation under the GFA, have ensured that the Union will be copperfastened in our lifetimes.
    The minority Unionist population dictate the future for the majority on this island.
    The Unionist veto has been enshrined by PSF and the SDLP.

  • lamhdearg

    mcclafferty
    I assumed from some of your other posts,that you had a titter of wit,that last one has put me right,question 1 do you beleive mankind came from ireland(if not we are all foreigners)Q2 when was this? that ireland was one country without borders, The history of ireland (before it was unified under british rule)was of small disparate kingdoms that where prone to beating the tripe out of each other, Not much change there then, Please take your rose sorry green tinted glasses off there are two sides to every story.