Belfast Court orders extradition of de Juana Chaos to Spain

I mentioned recently that convicted ETA killer José Ignacio (Iñaki) de Juana Chaos was still fighting extradition proceedings on charges of glorifying terrorism in Spain. Today the BBC reports that Belfast Recorder Tom Burgess has ordered that the extradition of de Juana Chaos should proceed.

Judge Burgess said there was no evidence that he would not receive a fair trial, and he could seek bail from the courts in Spain. He recognised the potential impact if he were to be sent back to jail, especially if put in solitary confinement, but added that if he engaged with the Spanish judicial system, arguments could be advanced for why he should be granted bail. He said questions about his mental state should be left to the Spanish authorities.

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  • joeCanuck

    The evidence against this chap seems pretty thin; from what I gather, a letter read out in his name at a rally.
    Still, it will be up to a Spanish jury to decide which is as it should be in a democracy.

  • old school

    The words he will be going for jail for, is….. “let´s kick the ball forward.”.
    In a political context it could mean anything.
    He didn´t even utter the words and denies even writing the letter.
    Nonetheless, he will be shuffled off by a non-jury Diplock Court, which Sinn Fein promised to dismantle, and a system we have been told has “been reformed”.
    BTW, Joe, it wont be up to a Spanish jury to decide. Heavily politicised Judges there will decide his fate also.

  • joeCanuck

    old school,

    As I said, pretty thin evidence. It would be a shame if he was convicted on those disputed words.
    I admit I know nothing about the Spanish judicial system so can’t comment on that.

  • He was pretty full of himself and his beliefs when he was murdering people. He was equally sure of himself when he thought he was fit to drive unsuspecting passengers about. Let him now go live up to his convictions.

  • joeCanuck

    Yes, pippakin, but he has served his time for those misdeeds.

  • old school

    Pippakin he served the full sentence for those killings. He was released and then the State froze his assets and even the apartment of his fiance. It´s good for Spanish politicians electorally, to be seen as “tough on terror”, and De Chaos is just a soft target for them in a media driven world.

  • Paddy

    Some posters here would be happy if GAL got him. Justice, UDR style. In fairness to the Spanish people, and unlike the UDR types, there was a reaction of sorts against that form of blatant State whacking.

  • JoeCanuck old school

    Yes indeed but he was not robbing a bank. He thought he could dispense with democracy to suit his cause.

    I have some sympathy for his cause but none whatsoever for his methods. It is not for him, or me, to choose who lives or dies. He made choices and has the luxury of living with them.

    Lets face it he would not be the first to deny he did or said what he did or said!

  • joeCanuck

    pippakin,

    You are hardly unaware of my feelings toward those who would deny democracy.

  • old school

    Thats all totally irrelevant Pippakin.
    He served the sentence the Spanish Court handed down. If they wanted him to die in prison they should have stated that. They should respect their own Judgements.

    Reimprisoning him, because some words could be construed as criminal, just reinforces ETAs claims they are fighting a dictatorial oppressive State. Im not saying ETA is fighting such a State but they will spin it to their supporters as such.
    A recently released ETA prisoner might now be tempted to go on the run with the group, as “going straight” is apparently not an option.

  • joeCanuck

    He has been charged with writing a letter inciting Basque separatists. He says he did not do it, it should be easy enough to prove.

    He did indeed serve his sentence in Spain. He was released and we have no reason to believe his treatment will be less this time.

    Snr Chaos has chosen to live here as, if he is innocent, is his right. He should not be threatening a hunger strike in a country he knows has open wounds on the subject. He chose it because he hoped it would inflame opinion. Too bad for him if the flames are from more than one fire.

    I know your views on democracy but we have no reason to assume that Spain is less democratic than we are.

  • old school

    Sorry! I answered Joe before I saw your comment, but the same applies.

    BTW I enjoy your blog and hope you feel galvanised to make another doc. soon.

  • joeCanuck

    I know your views on democracy but we have no reason to assume that Spain is less democratic than we are.

    Agree. I said as much in my first comment.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    I cant say I actually care.
    He is going back to Spain. Its not as if he was being specially rended to a CIA prison or Guantanomo.
    No doubt the usual suspects on the Blogosphere will get their revolutionary knickers in a twist about him.
    But real people wont give a damn.
    Will the Falls Road, the Bogside or Crossmaglen grind to a halt? Er…….no
    Hasta la vista Juana Chaos

  • Will he get a taxi to the airport?

  • Alias

    The European Arrest Warrant works its magic. The judicial authority in the requested jurisdiction is required to have a high degree of confidence in the judicial authority in requesting jurisdiction, with very limited grounds existing for not having the required confidence. Now if only the UK could be persuaded to issue the EAW for Liam Adams…

  • Bavarian Orange Order

    But the fares are astronomical!!!

  • But if he took a few of our murderers back with him they could split the cost.

  • Alias

    I have been wondering where the elusive European Arrest Warrant for Mr Liam Adams is. I do hope there is no skulduggery afoot. (again)!

  • socaire

    I knew it was only a matter of time before you dragged the Adams family and child abuse into this thread too, pippakin, you narcissistic troll.

  • Marcionite

    Here’s the logic of terrorism : bomb kill and maim enough times to provoke a less than professional reaction from some elements of the legitimate forces of the State (an inevitable reaction from ANY army/police force, they’re only human)and then denounce said State as oppressive therefore justifying terror after the fact

    it’s the policy of putting down a dog for biting you after you’ve kicked it 20 times

    all terrorists are garbage and so are their evil apologists. Where there is a ballotbox, there is no excuse for terrorism

    policemen and soldiers do not join police or army with the primary aim of planting bombs in shopping centres or murdering Protestant workmen or killing worshippers in rural defenceless border areas. They primarily join for altruistic reasons like preventing crime and defending our country from external attack.

    People join IRA and ETA because they are evil murdering psychopathic pieces of excrement and the umbrella of an organisation gives the veneer of cause and justification

  • B O O

    I must admit the idea appeals but only if the murderers were from either side of the ‘great divide’.

  • Pippakin, IMHO they can take each and every one of them from both sides.

  • socaire!

    What an unexpected…!!

    You have looked up the meaning of narcissist have you? As for troll, at least it will keep you from your amateur matchmaking.

    I simply responded to the comment made by Alias. In addition I am mildly concerned the powers that be seem to be a tad slow with the warrant.

    If you need further details I will be very happy to oblige. I see another (former) member of S/F has been declared a danger to women and children.

    Lets not go there shall we. You are fighting someone elses battle and cannot win.

    Besides I am in a good mood, been jotting my little blog. A tall handosme stranger!!! I miss already!!

  • B O O

    I agree I will even offer to help with the fares!!!

    Blessings!

  • socaire

    It’ll not be long before you-know-who grunts out from under his stone insupport of you and your mentally challenged felines.

  • Comrade Stalin

    old school,

    Can you explain

    (1) what’s wrong with a non-jury court ? It’s common practice not to have a jury in many EU countries. We aren’t Americans.

    (2) what’s wrong with the Spanish judicial system ? Is it controlled by British spooks as well ?

  • socaire!

    You know it is always a pleasure to deal with an old romantic like you. However I forgot in my previous comment to mention my disappointment. The narcissistic troll was not your idea! plagiarism! from someone I called either a Nazi war criminal or an Israeli!!! Check it out.

  • socaire

    If X and Y both say that it is dark, then I don’t see where plagiarism come into it.And why are YOU mildly concerned at the length of time that this warrant is taking? A bit Skibereen Eaglish, if you ask me.

  • old school

    Certainly Comrade, these Judges are pro State in nature obviously.
    They are sworn into the fabric of the State, handpicked by the State, and bread is put on their table by the State. They are therefore likely to be extra biased against members of the public who may be challenging the Status Quo or defying the power of the State.
    In the case of De Chaos there is clearly Spanish political pressure being put on Judges to put him away. There is an election coming up, and everyone wants to look tough. A Belfast judge would not jail a Republican for saying “lets kick the ball forward”, but deem it serious to extradite De Chaos for saying it.
    It´s all gone political.

  • socaire!

    Oh alright, Im a narcissistic troll! As long as Im not a child abuser or a rapist. Happy now?

    As for why should I be concerned? The last known address for LA was some place in Sligo, that is too close, far too close. You raised the subject but I do not believe child abusers simply learn the error of their ways.

    Clearly the ‘Skibereen English is meant to offend, but I am not a little Irelander. I spent a years in England and enjoyed it. I refuse to condemn the people of today for the sins of, not only yesterday, but hundreds of years ago. In English then: Ahm a good girl I am! I only hang the guilty and I wouldnt dream of leaving someone naked and dead, well maybe naked occasionally, but never dead.

    I believe Snr Chaos has no reason not to expect a fair trial in Spain, why should I pretend anything anything else.

  • socaire

    I think that the chances of a slavering horde of sex mad Sinn Féiners arriving at your door is slight. You will be quite safe ……… as long as you don’t put your name and address up on this site.

  • old school

    In Spain, a Councillor or politician can be jailed for refusing to condemn an act by ETA.
    It´s also a crime to hold a prisoners rights protest.
    A guy was jailed last week because his photo appeared on the facebook of an ETA activist.
    There is no chance De Chaos can expect a fair trial.

  • joeCanuck

    old school,

    There are left wing Judges in Spain too.
    I remember one trying valiantly though unsuccessfully to bring Thatcher’s old pal Pinochet to trial for his murderous misdeeds.

  • socaire!

    Careful! I made no mention of wanting anyone to knock on my door for any reason. I tried to treat you with humour and patience, but clearly you would try the patience of a saint!

    You almost threatened me. Dont do it again.

  • old school

    Joe, most lefties in Spain hate ETA.
    The Judge you are referring to is Garzon.Egoistic and enjoys a high profile. He is the top Judge in Spain.
    He´s about as left wing as Edwin Poots.

  • Comrade Stalin

    old school:

    Certainly Comrade, these Judges are pro State in nature obviously.
    They are sworn into the fabric of the State, handpicked by the State, and bread is put on their table by the State.

    Given that all courts are presided over by judges, how can a fair trial be possible even if there is a jury ?

    They are therefore likely to be extra biased against members of the public who may be challenging the Status Quo or defying the power of the State.

    As opposed to the jury who, if they reflect a cross-section of the population, will be majority unionist ?

    If you were an IRA man, you really think that you would get a fairer trial against a panel of 12 citizens, most of whom would be unionists, rather than a panel of accountable judges ?

  • It was Spanish law Snr Chaos took some pride in breaking. He has not been treated unfairly so far. I see no reason to think the Spanish will treat him badly this time.

  • socaire

    That’s a new one ………. “almost” threatened you. Another way of saying ‘treat with humour and patience’ could be patronise, could it not? Anyway, I’m sure you know the old joke about the woman who complained to the police that if she climbed on top of her wardrobe she could see her neighbours fornicating. Keep at the humour and be patient and don’t go to Spain with your views. And it was Skibereen EAGLISH.

  • joeCanuck

    old school,
    I confess to knowing little about Spanish politics. Don’t they have a left wing government?
    No matter what, they are a democratic country and, in that case, armed resistance is not in any way justifiable. The only way forward is by using the ballot box alone, Armalites are not valid.

  • old school

    Comrade, I understand the conundrum, and don´t claim to have an all encompassing solution.
    I believe the extradition of De Chaos is a political decision, brought on by State pressure.
    Lets face it, the phrase” Kick the ball forward” could mean battle on in the political or electoral sense. I have read the full script and it certainly isn´t clear he was referring to armed struggle.

  • socaire

    Well, Joe, USA is a democracy but you can still use armed resistance on an intruder.

  • joeCanuck

    socaire,

    And so the million or so Irish folks in Northern Ireland who just happen to go to the “wrong” church are intruders?

  • old school

    Has Socaire joined the dissidents???

  • socaire

    You are extrapolating. You said because it was a democracy then armed resistance was never justified. And only 46% of the people in the 6 counties are Irish, the rest want to be British. And there are somewhat less than 1 million churchgoers all told. And we were discussing Spain.

  • socaire

    old school, you surely jest. We all know that the dissidents are in government, don’t we?

  • socaire!

    I do not, ever, patronise anyone. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, and never the twain shall meet!

    As for ‘old women’, most of us are broadminded. If you are lucky enough to gather the years, you also gather experience and experience teaches tolerance!

    I apologise if you thought I was patronising you, that was not my intention. But if you ever mention sex mad shinners at my door again, you may well get boils!!

    Blessings!

  • socaire

    I never mentioned ‘old women’ and we’ll call off the dogs. For all I know you could be an attractive 24 year old and still broad minded!!

  • joeCanuck

    socaire,
    You know that I meant armed resistance against the state; you’re being mischievous.
    If you were born or chose to live in N.I. then you are Northern Irish, i.e. Irish. If some or many of the people also want to describe themselves as British, they are perfectly entitled to do so. As regards “church”, you are aware no doubt that there are both Catholic and Protestant atheists in N.I., according to the deluded, of course.

  • joeCanuck

    Well said!

  • socaire

    Now, joe, you are being mischievous. I didn’t choose to live in NI. Superior English might forced me to live here. If we had been a nation of 30 – 40 million souls the problem wouldn’t have arisen. And ,rightly or wrongly, you can’t ride both the British and the Irish horse at the same time as things stand now. But, then, you know all that. As pippakin would say, you are ‘almost’ trolling.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Comrade, I understand the conundrum, and don´t claim to have an all encompassing solution.

    Then stop repeating this bollocks about diplock courts when you don’t have the means to support your argument.

    I believe the extradition of De Chaos is a political decision, brought on by State pressure.
    Lets face it, the phrase” Kick the ball forward” could mean battle on in the political or electoral sense. I have read the full script and it certainly isn´t clear he was referring to armed struggle.

    It sounds to me as if the European jurisdiction procedures don’t allow one member state to block extradition to another member state except under very limited grounds. If he wanted asylum he should have gone somewhere else.

  • old school

    So Comrade, I cant condemn an unfair and biased judicial system until I rewrite and reshape the entire justice system, here on Slugger??
    I showed a bit of honesty and admitted there probably is no perfect system in which everyone is happy.
    Though I still believe State picked Judges overseeing cases of Anti State activists is hardly fair.

  • joeCanuck

    State picked Judges overseeing cases of Anti State activists is hardly fair

    Old School,
    What alternative do you suggest?

    Socaire,
    The history of these islands has been totally intertwined for almost a thousand years, much longer in the case of Northern Ireland and Scotland. That has been both good and bad. Nationality can be quite fuzzy. I met a woman this morning who happens to be from North Wales. She told me that one of her sons is Irish.

  • old school

    Joe, my alternative would not be pleasing to most here in Slugger and would probably be removed if I posted it.

  • socaire

    I know, joe, yiz were both on the drink. Post please, old school, PB is down the pub!!

  • joeCanuck

    PB has a laptop and his local has wi-fi.

  • old school

    I´m new here, and had a pretty tame post removed yesterday. I´m playing gingerly.
    End of Crown Judiciary in Ireland….few guys up against the wall…individuals standing before me in pointy hats and stocks… Think the Chinese Revolution just with dour accents.

  • Teacher is never far away is he boys…

  • joeCanuck

    old school, Did you read the commenting policy?
    Near top, RHS.

  • joeCanuck

    old school,
    Won’t get rid of the problem as you see it; who owns the walls?

  • Comrade Stalin

    So when you say “old school”, it means you’re a fascist. I’m glad that’s cleared up.

  • old school

    It´s only cleared up in your head, Comrade.
    “Fascist”? What a lazy, catch-all insult.
    Do we really have to insert smilies in our posts for those who don´t do humour??

  • joeCanuck

    In a speech in the House of Commons on 11 November 1947, Winston Churchill said:

    No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

  • Comrade Stalin

    So Comrade, I cant condemn an unfair and biased judicial system until I rewrite and reshape the entire justice system, here on Slugger??

    No. I’m saying that if you claim a system is fair and unbalanced, but you can’t explain why you think that, then you’re a fuckwit. By all means feel free to continue being a fuckwit, I can’t stop you.

    Though I still believe State picked Judges overseeing cases of Anti State activists is hardly fair.

    Who do you think should pick the judges then ?

  • old school

    BTW, for someone called Comrade Stalin to get irked about references to “show trials” is irony even Americans would get.

  • joeCanuck

    Slugger is a funny old place. I would never have guessed that this blog would have got so many comments.

  • Pete Baker

    Keep it civil, guys.

  • joeCanuck

    Don’t say I didn’t warn you. Pete does have a laptop and his local does have wi-fi.

  • old school

    Comrade, I have explained twice in this thread, as to WHY I believe the system is unfair and unbalanced, weighing heavily on the side of the State.
    I have also refrained from personal insults.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    JoeCanuck,
    I was just thinking the same thing……some Basque gets deported and its worth 70 comments. I think this proves the Blogosphere is not Real Life, where nobody actually cares.

    On reflection I have actually posted three times that I dont care. Hmmm

  • joeCanuck

    FitzjamesHorse,
    Nevertheless, this has been a good debate; best of Slugger. If it has interested a few of us, and not the rest of the population, so what? Like a pub discussion.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Indeed …but does it not indicate that in this particular case “Slugger” is completely out of touch with what really interests people.
    Personally I believe he disconnect between Media and the public is a bigger issue than some Basque being kicked out back to Spain.
    Of course nobody is actually gonna start a debate on the bigger issue.

  • slappymcgroundout

    “But real people wont give a damn.”

    Never have. Always been the problem.

    “He has not been treated unfairly so far.”

    Over a decade in solitary confinement and a hunger strike to make sure that he was released as scheduled rather prove otherwise. And here:

    Under sentencing guidelines then in force he had to serve only 18 years and was due to be freed in 2004. The Government, fearing a public outcry, unearthed two opinion articles that he had published in a Basque newspaper and charged him with making terrorist threats. Juan Fernando López Aguilar, the Justice Minister, promised to do “whatever is in our power to prevent these releases”, adding that the Government was working to “construct new charges” against Eta prisoners “like we did with de Juana Chaos”.

    Lastly, the charge is usually tried in the district wherein the alleged offense was committed. So, yeah, his fellow Basque would throw him to the wolves, as they are just like those other folks next door who banned the Basque language and their dance.

    Almost forgot, but did you all learn nothing from the Birmingham Six, the Guildford Four and the Maguire Seven. Once again, the absence of the, ? , means that it was a statement and not a question, as the answer is painfully clear to me. Note the one phrase in ” ” above, to wit, “construct new charges”, yes, just the like the constructed charges that imprisoned the Birmingham Six, the Guildford Four, and the Maguire Seven.

  • joeCanuck

    FitzjamesHorse,
    Slugger interests those of us who are interested; quite a number. Not all readers comment. It’s good enough.

    Slappy,
    You have introduced a brand new argument. I know nothing about his original trial. Are you claiming that he was framed?

  • FitzjamesHorse

    JoeCanuck.
    Indeed. It is an alternative reality.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Joe: No, not with respect his trial for murder. Re the opinion pieces in the paper that were the basis of his second trial, well, not “framed”, at least not as we usually define that word in this context. But kindly note that no one cared about what he wrote in some Basque paper until he was due to be released following his initial conviction. Then it was time to “construct new charges”. As it stands now, well, someone else claims to have read a letter he wrote, yet no one can produce the letter. If that weren’t bad enough, the “kick the ball forward” is rather vague, don’t you think?

    Lastly, this about sums it up:

    “All courts are more than conscious of the statements and pressures that emanate from many sources outwith the judicial system, but there is no reason to believe that the judicial system of Spain is any less robust in carrying out its duties without fear or favour.”

    Yes, and that explains why imprisoned ETA members were incarcerated as far from home as possible.

    By the way, guess who got the ball kicked forward? “The Association for the Victims of Terrorism filed a complaint in which it said…” The Willie Frazers of Spain.

  • Yes, and that explains why imprisoned ETA members were incarerated as far from home as possible.

    It brings tears to your eyes.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Pip:

    The quality of mercy is not strain’d,
    It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
    Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
    It blesseth him that gives and him that takes

  • Alias

    “It brings tears to your eyes.”

    Doesn’t it just? This scumbag murdered a total of 25 people and despite being sentenced to 3,000 years for a litany of horrific crimes he able to use a quirk in Spanish law to get out of jail after serving a mere 17 years, or about 8 months for every life he took. It’s a funny old world when folks are so easily brainwashed into weeping for the victimizers and couldn’t give a toss about their victims.

  • slappymcgroundout

    I will save my mercy and my sympathy for the victims of terrorists/murderers wherever they are.

    Snr Chaos has not just the laws of Spain and the UK to rely on. He also has the laws of the European Union and I am sick of the pretense that the murderer is the victim. It is long past time we Irish got rid of our penchant for victims

    Alias

    Read the above. I am not old school or socaire. I am a nationalist opposed to all violence, in particular the abuse of children, the rape of young girls and the sadistic murder of young men.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Pip: Has nothing to do with “penchant for victims”. Also has nothing to do with Irish. I am one of those Americans that didn’t answer the ethnicity question. I am American. End of story. When I used “we” in reference to Irish-American heritage month in the one post in further reference to our being just much more insufferable over this month, I was simply speaking as a collective American who understands that some didn’t skip the question but answered Irish-American and presumably act accordingly. You and I otherwise protect Chaos to protect ourselves, since under other circumstances, we too might find ourselves the subjects of an extradition warrant. I am simply pointing out the fact that given the local history, and his own history as well, there is reason to question whether he gets due process of law. And avoiding the deprivation is always to be preferred over trying to remedy the deprivation.

    Alias: You wrote:

    a quirk in Spanish law

    Is your privilege against self-incrimination a quirk in the law? Your right of free association? So it wasn’t a quirk in Spanish law, it was Spanish law. For the poetic justice, it was Franco law, the same Franco who banned their language and their dance. Maybe they should be angry with Franco. In the meantime, I’ll let you explain the rational in sentencing the human to a term of years that rather exceeds all known human life expectancy. That’s a little more quirky, if you ask me.

  • Rory Carr

    “I am a nationalist opposed to all violence…”

    Don’t suppose you get to too many hurling matches then, Pips?

  • Slappymcgroundout

    Sorry I got your nationality wrong. I should have remembered we are on www and anyone can be anywhere. I do not believe Snr Chaos will be badly treated in Spain and I get tired of the ‘usual suspects’ chanting the ‘usual’ excuses.

    Rory Carr

    Not for a very, very long time. The same goes for Rugby, although I was delighted with the win on Saturday.

  • Brian MacAodh

    “This scumbag murdered a total of 25 people”

    He did???