Have the Loyal Orders lost their Luca Brasi?

Perhaps the best indicator that this particular strand of nationalist outreach has begun to pay dividends came earlier this week with the surprising revelation by UDA leader, Jackie McDonald, that he was opposed to Loyal Order parades being forced through nationalist districts.
Speaking during the course of an interview conducted for the Belfast Telegraph, McDonald said:

“It might be tradition and it might be culture, but why would you?…. It’s to get one up on the other community, or being there because the other community says you can’t be.”

It is useful to remind ourselves of the supportive role played by the loyalist paramilitaries in the recent past as the Loyal Orders sought to fight against Parades Commission rulings that went against their collective desire to march in mixed and catholic/nationalist areas.
The Whiterock Riots in 2005 brought the Orange together with loyalist paramilitaries and ultimately proved successful in coercing the Parades Commission to move away from its compromise proposal that did not involve permitting the Brethren the victory of literally forcing open the peace walls to facilitate a loyalist parade on the catholic side of the wall.

Needless to say, an Orange order spokesperson has deemed Mr McDonald’s intervention as an ‘unhelpful‘ one.

  • Scaramoosh

    Well done McDonald, one of the few people who seems to be trying to take his people out of the past.

  • David Crookes

    Where else in the world could a man pass for sane while characterizing a piece of pure common sense as ‘unhelpful’? Well done, Mr MacDonald. Certain routes may be traditional, but then open sewers are traditional. Are the DUP, the UUP, and the TUV unable to agree with what Mr McDonald has said? Then unionist voters should prepare themselves to support a New Sensible Party.

    Let no politician insult us by using the word ‘complexity’. The issue here is dead simple. Either you want to cause trouble, or you don’t. If you’re a Christian, and if you’re truly British, you don’t want to cause trouble.

    It’s frightening to think that the man who said ‘unhelpful’ may be roaming the streets right now in an unmedicated state.

  • The Orange Order are meeting this morning so presumably Jackie will be having a bit of a rollicking – it will be interesting to know what stance the repersentative from Jackie’s neck of the woods takes.

    The Orange Order must be one of the oldest All Ireland institutions, preceding the GFA spinoffs by some distance, interesting to know what impact Southern representatives might have in debates on contentious issues like marches or do they not get invited to such meeetings?

  • I wonder how the Orange Order press spokesman responded to the intervention in the past of the likes of Johnny Adair (remember him?) or Billy Wright or the killers of the Quinn children, Rosemary Nelson or Elizabeth Quinn or a host of others who died as a result of the passions heightened by the pathological ‘need’ to march along the Garvaghy Road????

  • ardmaj55

    David Crookes. [2]
    If there’s any trouble in the hotspot areas this season, it will be on Peter Robinson/DUP’s head for bringing this issue up after all these years, just to get the DUP out of the electoral hole they had dug for themselves. they must have seen Iris coming.

  • ardmaj55

    “it will be on Peter Robinson/DUP’s head for bringing this issue up after all these years”

    The UUP have made no attempt to distance themselves from the elevation of this issue presumably preferring to opportunistically benefit it from it if the DUP dont get the Orange Order’s desire outcome.

    The political leaders of Unionism have stupidly decided to use the one issue, that more than any other, portrays Unioinsts as intolerant and reinforces the growing cultural differences with an increasingly secular mainland.

  • Brid Rodgers

    After 10 years of relative calm and peace on the Garvaghy Road DUP/Sinn Fein have resurrected this quarrel. Turning back the clock is the last thing the people of the Garvaghy Road need. The issue had been put to bed. Thankfully it was over. Unionists and nationalists in Portadown no longer await the marching season with dread and apprehension. It beggars belief that they are being forced back to square one. Let sleeping dogs lie.

    Brid Rodgers

  • David Crookes

    Well said, ardmaj55 (#5). Reminds me of the Watergate nuclear alert. The unBritish Garvaghy-Queen’s-Highway monster was dying away nicely when cynical politicians brought it back to life as a kind of squid pro quo. Those politicians must take responsibility in advance for any trouble that their actions may help to generate. Already they have raised the expectations of many unreasonable persons. It’s like opening up a wound that was starting to heal and pouring concentrated orange juice over the raw exposed tissues. Jackie McDonald has seen what is coming.

  • jfcb

    More of this straight talking common sense thinking is needed in the loyalist & unionist community , David ervine was that hope – if some one came even close to following in his footsteps – its a move in the right direction ,the grassroots is allready taking these steps – the DUP need to stop there smoke mirrors & hidden agendas.
    Next time you get a chance to vote use it & put these people out of power – that goes for both party’s in power at stormont.

  • wee buns

    Respect to Jackie Mc Donald.
    It would seem that this ‘quarrel’ has not so much been resurrected as rewoken, suggesting that the socialist critism of the GFA is correct: institutionalized sectarian devision.

  • ardmaj55

    DC It’s an often forgootten point which you made there, that the UUP is wrongly considered as more moderate than DUP, [which wouldn’t be difficult]. But some in it’s ranks are just as bad, but wise enough to keep quiet.
    I heard Fred Cobain on TV news some time ago saying that Belfast is a Unionist city, so demographic changes on the ground must be countered periodically to gerrymander the council area. He didn’t say as much but that’s the logic of his statement. Some people seem not to have learned anything from the fall of Stormont in 1972.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Brid, the marching issue hasn’t been resolved comprehensively, so it looks a lot like cynical opportunism on your part to try to suggest that an attempt has been made to reopen a closed issue. It seems to me that the SDLP have decided, beginning with the removal of Mark Durkan, to adopt bitchiness and unconstructive thinking as the way to regain the confidence of the electorate. This strategy will fail.

    The way that the issue has been brought up was cynical as well, of course. But we do need a permanent set of structures to resolve marching issues properly. The Parades Commission was/is effective but not much more than a stop gap.

    As for Jackie McDonald, the words he’s speaking make a lot of sense and look like an attempt to be reasonable. Unfortunately, he doesn’t represent anybody at the polls. The UDA isn’t an organization known for discipline or coherence either, so it isn’t clear how many of his own ranks agree with what he is saying.

  • David Crookes

    Sharp one there, ardmaj55 (#11). If and when a majority of NI’s citizens vote for Irish unity, some people who call themselves unionists will want to fight for repartition. The word ‘democracy’ in the lexicon of these people is rendered, ‘Give us what we want or we’ll wreck the place.’ As with the ancient Israelites, thirty-eight years in the wilderness has taught them nothing. Thase people aren’t rational. Their self-important solemnity gives way to the merest buffoonery at the beating of a drum. It really has been very wicked of the DUP to march them on to the chessboard.

  • dodrade

    To all those who say that the Orange Order should not insist on exercising their human and civil rights and parading “where they’re not wanted”, I would ask them were the Little Rock Nine wrong to to insist on going to a school where they “weren’t wanted”? Were they being “triumphalist” in seeking to walk the corridors of an all-white school? Should they have forgone their rights and taken the “alternative route” of segregated schools in their “own” areas? If the answer is no, then what’s the difference between the two?

    The answer of course, is that for too many in this country (and who post on this site) anti-Orange (and protestant) bigotry is an acceptable prejudice. I would point out too that before the sectarian anti-catholic canards are repeated that the qualifications of an Orangeman require members to be “ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions, or sentiments towards his Roman Catholic brethren.” In my personal experience an Orangeman I have never known another Orangeman to breach this obligation and any who do should not be in the Order.Who are the real bigots, the christian gentlemen seeking to return home from church via a primary thoroughfare, or “concerned residents” who cannot bear the sight of a Protestant passing their window for twenty minutes a year?

    Calls for tolerance, respect and a shared future cut both ways. If republicans truly claim to cherish “all the children of the nation equally” then the war against Orangeism must end.

  • wee buns

    I’ve often thought a jazz boogie-woogie version of The Sash would cure alot.

  • I want to congratulate Mr McDonald. He may well be the new ‘David Ervine’ a man still missed for his common sense and outspoken views.

    As grown ups no one should want to go anywhere they are not wanted.

    As grown ups no one should object to a twenty minute march once a year.

  • ardmaj55

    DC 13 ” It really has been very wicked of the DUP to march them on to the chessboard”

    Well, David, it was not for nothing that the only actual leader of the DUP in their malign history namely Old Ian, was called the Grand Old Duke of York. The successor is nothing but a bean counter, or should that be ‘tie counter?’

  • ardmaj55

    Dodrade 14 So you think it’s acceptable for Orangemen to hold up five fingers as a gloating gesture when psassing the Ormeau Rd bookie’s shop where five catholics were murdered. Nice friends you have in your so called Christian Order.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    First off the ultra respectable Christian DUP, Vanguard (Trimble and Empty etc) were not shy about paramilitary style muscle when it suited the purpose.
    The politicians have inherited the goodies and the UDA types have been left outin the wilderness unlike their fellow terrorists in the IRA.
    McDonald might just be getting his retaliation in first…that the politicians/Orange types negotiating parades need not expect too much “assistance”.

    More generally this points to a new tradition. Having lived for over a decade of restricted parading, a new “tradition” has emerged, a new consensus……the balance has now totally switched from the rights of marchers to rights of residents.
    Parading is not the issue it once was.
    The not an inch mentality of the Spirit of DRumcree types is ancient history.

    It is after all 2010. “Alleged” IRA men are in government and the atmospherics are different to say 1954.
    That Orange Civilisation has Gone With The Wind.

  • Secret Squirrel

    It’s frightening to think that the man who said ‘unhelpful’ may be roaming the streets right now in an unmedicated state.

    I love the humor on this site. :o)

  • ardmaj55

    FJH Good points, but in any case the loyalists learnt the hard way about what they got for helping unionist politicians bringing down the original powersharing deal in 1974.
    As soon as that assembly went down the pan, after two weeks in may, the unionists dismissed the muscle support as terrorists.
    If it hadn’t been for the miners strike a few weeks earlier in February 1974, Ted Heath would still have been in charge and after killing off their Stormont two years before, unionists would not even considered the uwc strike. In the event, Heath was thrown out and a weak minority labour coalition govt came in which only lasted until october. Now they talk about another hung parliament. Could history be about to repeat itself, with the new regime dependent on unionist support?

  • FitzjamesHorse

    If History repeats itself it will be as farce.
    Cameron cant be a moderniser AND reach out to unionism which is the most backward aspect of conservatism.
    Cameron is trying to distance himself from old Tory types.
    The world is of course more transparent now …there is more scrutiny of government…..the old 1950s/60s Conservative “and Unionist” party is dead and buried.
    History is basically a one way street although it has some diversions.

  • Alan N/Ards

    Well done Jackie. It’s about time someone from the working class unionist tradition spoke out on this issue.

    Conubhar
    I may be wrong, but was the horrendus killing of the Quinn children not related to the Drumcree protest. It just happened at that time.

  • dodrade

    ardmaj55 no I don’t. As I said in my post such people do not belong in the Order.

  • ardmaj55

    Dodrade 24 If the sort of people who gave five finger gestures at the bookies shop in marching past, don’t belong in the Order, that doesn’t seem to have prevented them and their ilk being still members all this time later. I take it there is a vetting procedure in the OO to weed out these vermin. Not doing much of a job, is it?

  • dodrade

    ardmaj55 I believe that in the past there were people admitted that probably shouldn’t have been and disciplinary action was not always taken when it should have been. I am merely a private member of a rural lodge and can only speak for myself but I have never witnessed any untoward behaviour. Indeed my lodge is in a mixed area and our parade route takes us past Catholic occupied houses and a chapel with no trouble whatsoever, as hard as that may be for you to believe.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    In fairness rural lodges are a much different class from the Belfast and big town lodges.I think its fair to say that quite a few rural lodges would not entertain a “kick the Pope” band.

    It is certainly not hard for me to believe that the vast majority of rural parades are no trouble whatsoever. I myself witnssed one in Coalisland in County Tyrone in the 1960s.
    But it is actually in the interests of small lodges in Tyrone, Fermanagh, South Down etc to see the parades issue on the Ormeau Road or garvaghy Road settled in favour of…..the residents.

    A lot of rural lodges from Fermanagh & Tyrone were compelled to go to Drumcree to support their “brethren” …brethren which for the most part they could happily do without.
    The effect on the Fermanagh & Tyrone lodges was negative…….in supporting the Drumcree types they drew a spotlight on to their own village parades which had peacefully occurred for decades.

    If Garvaghy Road is paraded on by Orangemen the most likely effect will be objections to these very same parades in …..villages in Fermanagh & Tyrone.

  • st etienne

    The figurative pats on the back given to this particular ‘brigadier’ when he says something on message, and in doing so disregarding his day job (when he’s not being consulted by the local media or having tea with the Republic’s president), is nothing short of gross ignorance.

    A paramilitary/mafia boss with a political opinion? That’s nice, nothing to see here.

  • Turgon

    FitzjamesHorse,
    Unfortunately that view is somewhat inaccurate. Some of the rural lodges have been the target of protests and the parades are “contentious.” Dunloy is the classic example. The hinterland of the village of Dunloy contains many unionists, indeed it may well be predominantly unionist, though the village is practically 100% nationalist.

    Dunloy Accordion band is as far from a kick the pope band as one can imagine and the lodge is a classic rural lodge. Despite this the band and lodge are prevented from parading by residents’ objections.

  • ardmaj55

    Dodrade. P2 msg1 I’m taking you at your word on the differences between lodges in rural districts, and your own experience and as mentioned by another poster. we’ll leave it at that, then.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Turgon,
    I did not know that Dunloy had moved to Fermanagh or Tyrone.
    “Some” parades no doubt like Pomeroy and Newtownbutler suffered a backlash fom Drumcree.
    Orange feet on Garvaghy Road means fewer on the village streets west of the Bann.

  • An Lorgain

    In [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/radio/bbc_radio_four?page=6]this[/url] clip Drew Nelson says the OO want to march down the Garvaghy because…….

    “[i]The 200 year old route was once inhabited by Protestants but during these troubles past the Protestant community was expelled from that area. So the Protestant community in Portadown feel that our community has been expelled from that area, and that this is the last vestige of them being able to exercise some presence in that area.”[/i]

    The original parade marched down Obins st, which has been perceived as a ‘Catholic area’ since the last century. Since the early 1800’s Garvaghy rd was mainly fields though there was a Catholic church.

    [quote]In 1835, Armagh magistrate William Hancock (a Protestant) wrote:

    For some time past the peaceable inhabitants of the parish of Drumcree have been insulted and outraged by large bodies of Orangemen parading the highways, playing party tunes, firing shots and using the most opprobrious epithets they could invent. [The Orangemen have gone] a considerable distance out of their way to pass a Catholic chapel on their march to Drumcree church.

    There was violence during the Drumcree parades in 1873, 1883, 1885, 1886, 1892, 1903, 1905, 1909 and 1917.[/quote]

    Drew Nelson fails to mention any of the history of Drumcree, a history that shows exactly why there should never be another ‘parade’.

    [quote]The Tunnel area was the site of riots on 23 July and 5 November 1873, the second of these taking the form of a battle between policemen, who were blocking the entrance to the Tunnel, with Orangemen attempting to march through[3]. Serious riots took place in 1880 after a ‘Green’ arch had been erected for the Lady’s Day celebrations of 15 August[4] and in 1885 the Tunnel was the scene of disturbances involving a Salvation Army band, accompanied by ‘roughs’ and playing ‘party tunes’, who had been ordered not to march in that direction.[5] There were further disturbances in 1886, and in 1892 riots continued for several days after the Twelfth, with the Belfast Newsletter complaining about the ‘disgraceful conduct of the police’. [/quote]

  • Chris Donnelly

    An Lorgain
    You make some excellent points there.

    “So the Protestant community in Portadown feel that our community has been expelled from that area, and that this is the last vestige of them being able to exercise some presence in that area.”

    Drew Nelson’s comments (above) deserve further consideration. There was once a sizeable presence of catholics on Belfast’s Shankill Road and throughout east Antrim. Should this justify a republican parade along the Shankill and in Rathcoole and Carrickfergus?

  • An Lorgain

    Sorry I posted the wrong link to Drew, here it is…. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8522669.stm

    His last remark was also quite interesting, when he says….

    [i]”I would be very concerned if the troubles broke out again, there is not the affiliation or support for the security forces within the Protestant community, that was there during the last period of troubles.”[/i]

    I see what you mean there Drew.

    [b]British army and RUC escorted Orange Order and Loyalist paramilitaries along the Catholic Nationalist Garvaghy Rd. 1972[/b]

    http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1008/britisharmyandrucescort.jpg

  • nick

    I heard Dawn Purvis on radio agreeing with the point of view expressed by Jackie McDonald. She also stated ‘you would be surprised’ at the amount of people within the protestant community that agree with the view espoused by McDonald

  • ardmaj55

    nick. After the way the loyalists were used as muscular strength during the 1974 UWC strike, and Paisley’s failed attempt to re run it in 1977, [His political career almost foundered on that], it’s not surprising they’re wary of Unionist politicians. In fact there is a distance between the unionist body politic and their political establishment also.
    In recent time, people who would normally constitute their likely voters, have noted how the DUP have attempted to exploit the orangemen at Drumcree as elsewhere, just to get them out of the electoral hole they dug themselves, and will, no doubt tell them on the doorsteps what they thought of that.

  • nick

    Yeah, but voting habits don’t change.The DUP vote wasn’t shrunk at the last election by the defection of newly-enlightened, left leaning liberal unionists. Rather their vote was reduced by the TUV which is the latest alphabetical representation of the ‘not a taig about the place’ view.
    Running on the spot, always have, always will…

  • FitzjamesHorse

    The Orange Order likes to think of itself as “Protestant culture”. It alienates as many Protestants as it represents.
    The more unreasonable they appear to be, the more repulsed ordinary decent Protestants become.

    This is the intriguing thing about the Norn Iron situation.
    There are some who believe we are all part of one big community (a minority).
    There are more who believe that there are two communities.
    For the latter the name of the game is to not only maximise the strength of your own tribe but to minimise the strength of the other one.

    Which is why the DUP/TUV/UUP build up the “threat” of the dissidents.
    Which is why SF-IRA, SDLP are gratified at the emergence of the TUV.

  • David Crookes

    (An Lorgain’s #9) “….. there is not the affiliation or support for the security forces within the Protestant community…..”

    Leave aside for a moment the unholy threat which underlies Mr Nelson’s words. If you don’t support the security forces who uphold the rule of law, you have ceased to be British, and you can’t claim to be Christian. I Peter 2. 13 says, ‘Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man…..’ That verse lays upon all Christians a duty of obedience to the police, to the army, and to ‘ordinances’ like the parades commission.

    Those who say IF WE LIKE THE LAW WE’LL KEEP IT, BUT IF WE DON’T LIKE THE LAW WE’LL BREAK IT are unBritish savages. Don’t let them fool you. If they wear suits, they are merely savages in suits.

    Many readers will know the words that Hermann Rauschning falsely attributed to Hitler. ‘Wir sind Barbaren. Wir wollen es sein. Es ist ein Ehrentitel.’ (We are barbarians. We want to be barbarians. It is an honourable title.) The threat of violent barbarity is the pike which some unionist politicians have always been prepared to keep in their thatch. If we are to have a civilized society, we must decommission that unBritish and unChristian pike right away.

    Most members of ‘the Protestant community’ are fed up with being characterized as Orange. They are happy to support the security forces. They hate the word ‘Garvaghy’ with the perfect hatred of the Psalmist. Many of them contrive to spend their holidays abroad during the most fraught period of what is called ‘the marching season’. By contrast, many of those who say ULSTER IS BRITISH are really Protestant nationalists, and if they ever get the sort of statelet that they really want it will be a godless two-county Bungalowdesh with no forests and no libraries, flowing with Schloer and tray-bakes.

  • backstage

    Stating the obvious – the DUP chose to resurrect the parading issue because the Orange Order is at the heart of the DUP. At the heart of the Orange Order is anti-Catholicism as demonstrated openly by many of their members/MLAs. The issue is not about the Union, it’s about identity – Britishness and anti-Catholicism as the DUP interpret it. It doesn’t matter that no-one else shares their view – it’s their religion, it’s god’s word. Fundamentalist religion, or just plain fundamentalism, is at the heart of this problem – no rationality or thought required.

  • Comrade Stalin

    It’s very reassuring to hear the words spoken by people like McDonald and Dawn Purvis, but we have to ask how representative that they are given that they consistently get rejected at the polls.

  • backstage

    I notice you say ‘Britishness and anti-catholicism as the DUP interpret it’.

    I never found anti Catholic anything in Britain, nor did I find any OO marches. I have never seen anything less ‘British’ than either the OO or their opponents.

  • backstage

    pippakin

    interpretation….the DUP understand Britishness as being anti-Catholic, not that being British in the general, normal sense is anti-Catholic – at least in modern times.

    BTW, I came across several OO marches in NE England and of course there are plenty in Scotland. I also came across a few Red Hands and St Patrick’s crosses hung out during the Twelfth – but probably just a dose of homesickness….?

  • backstage

    At least in modern times? Certainly in my lifetime!

    What did you do trawl England to find a OO flag.

    Scotland is Scotland, ask em. The OO may be there but so is Celtic!

    There will never be true peace in the north while people drone on about ‘at least in modern times’. Modern times are the times we live in. If you want to go back that far, how about the ‘inquisition’.

    Just imagine the grief, on both sides, when/if Celtic and Glasgow Rangers join the English League.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    16.It’s very reassuring to hear the words spoken by people like McDonald and Dawn Purvis, but we have to ask how representative that they are given that they consistently get rejected at the polls.

    Indeed Comrade Stalin…..a bit like the Alliance Party.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Indeed Comrade Stalin…..a bit like the Alliance Party.

    Quite correct, which is why I always argued that Alliance should have a paramilitary wing. It’s the only way to get snooty SDLP wankers to pay attention.

  • Secret Squirrel

    Have Continuity John O’Connell decommissioned ?

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    >>t’s very reassuring to hear the words spoken by people like McDonald and Dawn Purvis, but we have to ask how representative that they are given that they consistently get rejected at the polls.< >Scotland is Scotland, ask em. The OO may be there but so is Celtic!<

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Knowing your inflated opinion of your own abilities, I should ask if you are including yourself in everyone.

    Two halves of the same coin? Why else cretin do you think I included them. It was neither ignorant or lazy.

    You need to ask yourself: who supports OO, who supports Celtic and who supports Glasgow Rangers.

    And before you start again: I do know which is which!

  • An Lorgain

    [quote]Chris Donnelly…….
    Drew Nelson’s comments (above) deserve further consideration. There was once a sizeable presence of catholics on Belfast’s Shankill Road and throughout east Antrim. Should this justify a republican parade along the Shankill and in Rathcoole and Carrickfergus? [/quote]

    The response would probably rely heavily on the word ‘tradition’ but there’s a problem with that. As you can see from Armagh magistrate William Hancocks comment in 1835….

    [quote][i][The Orangemen have gone] a considerable distance out of their way to pass a Catholic chapel on their march to Drumcree church.[/i][/quote]

    So from the outset the OO of Portadown went out of their way and created a contentious march that would antagonise Catholics, why otherwise march to a church and pass, what was, the only Catholic church in Portadown. Nothing good has come from that particular ‘tradition’ which was unacceptable then and is unacceptable now.

  • David Crookes

    ‘I always argued that Alliance should have a paramilitary wing’ (Comrade Stalin, #21).

    Quango Young Defenders.

  • An Lorgain

    Pass the tray bakes D 🙂

  • David Crookes

    As long as you promise to wash them down in the ritual manner with a weak dilution of chemical-aftertaste orange squash, An Lorgain.

    If everyone would stop venerating daft traditions this would be the greatest wee country in the world. A dog which has been house-trained is a dog which has been taught to abandon certain venerable traditions. What has been made clear on the present thread is that the Great Garvacuity has been a trouble-making tradition since the time of William IV.

  • Peter Fyfe

    Pippakin

    Just think how lucky all them english hooligan fans will be to be graced with the best behaved fans in the world. Maybe thats a step too far, but they are the only set of fans who have been awarded by UEFA and FIFA for their behaviour.It seems to be people wish to create a grouping they can label as causing trouble and at times it becomes self perpetuating. I get tired of those that wear a top in support of the hoops and know nothing about them. It is clear they are trying to identify themselves.It certainly stains the legacy of such a great club.

    ‘Celtic jerseys are not for second best, they don’t shrink to fit inferior players’

    Lately they probably do but thats not the point, you can’t lable a club because some scumbag has once bought their top.

    This has to be my favourite though

    ‘Jock, if there were two players, one Catholic and one Protestant. Who would you sign?’
    ‘The Protestant’
    ‘Why?’
    ‘Because I know that Rangers would never sign the Catholic’

    And one more which seems appropriate to this discussion

    ‘It’s not religion that’s the problem – it’s the lack of religion!’

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Well said Mr Fyfe.
    There is a tendency to think that Celtic and Rangers are the “same”. Of course they are not.
    By extension there is a lazy tendency to think that both sides in our squalid little conflict ar the same” Of cours they are not.

    The Overclass has abandoned true compromise for a kinda “split the diffeence” between two positions.
    It is a disservice to History.
    As it would have been to treat WW2 Allies and WW2 Nazis as “all the same”

  • Peter Fyfe

    I was mainly referring to the polarised and sectarian nature of the OO and both clubs.

    Actually I am not sure either club can boast entirely this or entirely that staff or players any more. As for the OO I would say their time has been and gone, but I would be the last to insist on such a thing.

    As far as I know the English football league is the hardest, richest and most successful in the world, which since I never watch football means absolutely nothing to me. It does however mean a great deal to any club trying to make money and is the reason both Glasgow Rangers and Celtic have expressed an interest. In a way it would be a good thing for both teams. It could well be the one thing to unite them! LOL!

    I do not support a football team, if I did it would be West Ham Utd, the team my brothers supported, last time I checked they had a supporters club in Cork.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Pip

    How you managed to miss the easy to find irony this narcissistic cretin was making regarding your lazy comparison mystifies me. Normally I chuckle when people aim abuse or call me thick etc., but doing it whilst the all too obvious subtlety of my point zooms *fast* er yir heid has geid me the heebies.

    No more subtlety for you then(makes mental note). It is patently untrue to paint celtic as the direct opposite of Rangers never mind the OO. Any passing investigation of the facts easily belies your silly highly defamatory comments.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    I dont doubt the narcissism or the cretinous behaviour. Its what I have come to expect from you.

    I can hardly be blamed for not finding subtlety where none exists.

    I stand by what I said, unlike some I am not interested in this particular historical saga, only the way it is perceived and reflected in todays world.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    The vagaries of a shallow life eh Pip.

    Of course you are not interested in fact because it does not suit your agenda. Lazily spreading the fallacy of equality in the bigotry sphere lessens the onus on the *actual* bigots to change.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    And constantly harping back to long gone wrongs and misdeeds draws everyone closer together I suppose. You need to get out in the fresh air more.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Pip

    Serious point.

    How does attributing wrong to those wronged help deal with the past. Also like GA, I am a saint who lives my life only to bring people closer together. Myself and half a dozen busty damsels in a wee jakuzi(spelt it wrang cos ma mind was wanderin)

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    What a vivid and no doubt active imagination you have!

    It does not help to attribute wrong to those wronged, but neither does dwelling on the wrong either. Live for now with your busty damsels and for tomorrow with the consequences! do not dwell in the past, its a place to visit, but only a mad man would want to live there.

  • Peter Fyfe

    Pip

    I know what you were saying, it’s just I always feel the need to defend the team, the club itself and I believe a vast majority of fans. I know there are some moronic fans.

    Money has always united them, I have heard it is where the term the Old Firm originated. When Celtic got in trouble over the flying of Irish Tricolour in 1952 from the SFA led by the Hibs chairman of the time, Harry Swann. It was Rangers that rode to their defence. 3 Old firm games a season generates a lot of money.

    PE

    You seem to be making the same mistake with Ranger’s fans. Even after some of them wrecked Manchester, many buses stopped on their way home to pay their respects to the great Tommy Burns. It harsh to group any large group together because of the actions of a few. Though I do recognise one of my earlier quotes is regarding Ranger’s transfer policy which was shameful at the time but this is in their history. I don’t imagine the board room have much against either catholics or blacks now. The thread after all is about a Ranger’s fan who is saying Orangemen should not march where they are not wanted. Some talk some common sense, maybe Gregory will catch up with the rest of them some day.

  • Peter Fyfe

    Nothing unites us like the need for cash! and nothing equals the draw of a Celtic v Rangers clash, unless of course either side are playing an English team, in which case they unite for the duration!

    You are right, it is for the most part a harmless and friendly rivalry, just the usual number of loons who for some reason attach themselves to every team.

    It is those same loons who continue to fill and plague the OOs. I hope they, in the words of an old football song, ‘fade and die’.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Peter

    >>You seem to be making the same mistake with Ranger’s fans.< >Even after some of them wrecked Manchester, many buses stopped on their way home to pay their respects to the great Tommy Burns.<

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    >>Nothing unites us like the need for cash! and nothing equals the draw of a Celtic v Rangers clash, unless of course either side are playing an English team, in which case they unite for the duration!< >just the usual number of loons who for some reason attach themselves to every team.<

  • Comrade Stalin

    Tray bakes are strictly reserved for interrogations only. Everyone else has to make do with Rich Teas.

  • Peter Fyfe

    Pip

    I know not every orangeman sets out to annoy the other side. However, when you see their leaders calling people out onto the streets, it is another story. This stops being the case of a few though when leadersip calls people out on to the streets in the wake of unfavourable rulings by the parades commision. This differentiates it to Celtic in my view and shows some very questionable opinions prevailing within sections of the Orange order as to their regard for other peoples rights. Nobody has an absolute right to infringe on the rights of others.

  • Peter Fyfe

    I am not suggesting there is nothing wrong with the OO if you read my comments you will see my opinion of them. I do believe we need to search for compromise, and that to a great extent is going to mean letting go of past hurts. If we can get to peace with the protestant Irish in the north it will be worth it.

    Prionsa Eoghann

    Bored with your ‘busty damsels’ already? I lived in England for years and know a fair bit about Anglo Scots rivalry. I can tell you this, nothing and I mean absolutely nothing unites the Scots like the idea of beating England, and failing the England team, any other English team will do. Do not confuse the trouble makers with the supporters. To do so implies a dislike for all which I am sure you do not feel.

    Comrade Stalin

    I feel like Im writing War and Peace. I will settle for the Rich Teas. Interrogation doesnt suit me. I cry easily!

  • Skintown Lad

    I often read references to how Unionist leaders used ‘paramilitary muscle’ particularly around parades. Can people identify examples? I don’t mean examples where shady paramilitary types have taken the same view as unionists leaders and used their own malevolent methods of expressing themselves. I mean examples where unionist leaders have deliberately cooperated with or directed those shady types. It’s the sort of allegation that has become commonly accepted as truth by nationalists. Just wondering if there is any evidence to back it up?

  • ardmaj55

    Skintown Lad [20
    You only have to read the sections in the David Ervine book, ‘Uncharted Waters’ to see the way in which Paisley[have absented himself at the outset of the UWC strike in 1974 to lie low in canada],came back when he saw the strike was heading in the right direction, and trying to take over at the top. But he was bodily removed by loyalist leaders including Andy Tyrie, from the top chair.

  • An Lorgain

    Found this on wilki but I believe it’s from a book about Drumcree.

    [quote]The Apprentice Boys, a Protestant fraternity similar to the Orange Order, had planned to march along Garvaghy Road on 1 April (Easter Monday). The day before, [b]police decided to ban the march as it believed the UDA were to take part.[16] At 1:00am on Monday, at least 3000 men gathered in the town centre, forced their way past a small group of police, and marched along Garvaghy Road.[11] Among them was Ian Paisley,[11] leader of the Democratic Unionist Party [/b]and of the fundamentalist Free Presbyterian Church. [b]Residents claimed that some of the marchers were carrying guns.[16] Some of the marchers attacked houses along the route[/b] and residents claimed that the RUC did little or nothing to stop this.[11] There followed rioting between residents and the RUC. Some set up barricades for fear of further attacks.[11] There was a feeling among locals that the RUC had “mutinied” and refused to enforce the ban.[11] Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams said that it was “more evidence of the untrustworthiness of the RUC”.[11] In the afternoon, another Apprentice Boys parade marched through the town centre. A group of loyalists attacked police, who were blocking access to the nationalist area. One rioter, Keith White, was shot by a plastic bullet and died in hospital on 14 April.[16][17][/quote]