Adams’ Palin moment

Gerry Adams’ appearance on the Late Late Show was notable for his Palinesque answers.

• Well I have to say, even yet, and I know an awful lot more about these issues now, it still, beyond, uh, part of my, I can understand it to a certain degree, you know, intellectually and because I’ve learnt a huge amount about abuse and how they happen and about the trauma for, uh, victims, and about how, how, how so many victims, apart from the direct victims, a ripple effect throughout the entire family.

• Were ever you tempted to [disown your brother]?

Yes and no. He left the country, both, both sets of parents, he had separated from his wife Sally who is Aine’s mother, and, and both left independently of each other, left, left Ireland. Uh… So… later on, I discovered that my father was an abuser, and, ah, I was told that around 19 – 96, and I brought all of my siblings together, and that included my brother Liam. And we tried to work through, this, absolutely horrifying, you know, I was a man, ah, in my 50’s, ah, I, I had been out of my family home from 1969, and we are a large family so, you know, some of my siblings would be quite young, probably, and some of the youngest ones may be in their mid or late 30s now. So, this was just a horrifying thing to come to terms with.

• What’s taken you so long to deal with these very profound and such close personal issues?

Because, because there are ten of us, and I’m the oldest and in Ireland a lot falls on the oldest, and we are a very, you know, close, close family, but, everybody comes at this differently, so you have ten people, and I don’t want to talk about my own family, they haven’t authorised me to talk about them, but let me just talk about it in a theoretical sense. Some were immediately in denial.

• One of the reasons why, why I wanted to publicise this, was because there are people out there who, are just absolutely destroyed, damaged, by abuse. Abuse of a child is, is the most heinous thing, you know, that, that could ever happen, a child’s life is stolen, a childhood is stolen, and, you know, there are lots of people who can’t have children, and I love children, and to think of, especially an iconic figure, you know, a father, a brother, some cases uncles, whatever, whatever happens to be the family, ah, circumstance.

Fuller transcript follows the jump. Ryan Tubridy: […] I just want to get this story, as you see it. So, take this time, take this opportunity, to lay it out as it was. Let’s go back to what I said a minute ago. Aine calls to you and says, that your brother, alleges that your brother, sexually abused her. Now, how did you react to what she said, first of all, as a human, as a man, an uncle?

Gerry Adams: Well, I was horrified. Uh, I didn’t know, really a lot about child abuse or, or, any of that, uh, so it was almost, uh, beyond my sense of, of being, uh.

RT: Could you not grasp it, do you think, was it beyond your grasp to understand it?

GA: Well I have to say, even yet, and I know an awful lot more about these issues now, it still, beyond, uh, part of my, I can understand it to a certain degree, you know, intellectually and because I’ve learnt a huge amount about abuse and how they happen and about the trauma for, uh, victims, and about how, how, how so many victims, apart from the direct victims, a ripple effect throughout the entire family.

RT: But did you go to then, your brother with Aine, is that what you said?

GA: Yeah I went with, I went with Aine and her, ah, …and, and, and her mummy.

RT: And her mother to see Liam. That must have been a very difficult, ah, moment, what happened at that confrontation?

GA: Well, I, I, I deal with as much of this, as I can.

RT: Well, tell us what you can tell us.

GA: Just to tell your viewers, I’m sure you are conscious, there is a court case pending, the PSNI have written to me, and told me not to talk about these matters, on the media, because they could become prejudicial to
a, a court, ah, hearing.

RT: Even though a lot of it has been aired already.

GA: Yeah, well, still, still, I don’t want to be a person who is going to be part of that court proceeding, because I have made a statement to the PS, PSNI and, uh, you know, Liam denies, uh, the charges, uh, against him.

RT: And he denied it to you.

GA: And he denied it to me.

RT: Who did you believe?

GA: I believed Aine.

RT: Why?

GA: Because, I just couldn’t believe that a child, and, and Aine, you know, was a good, young, kid, maybe at that time she was 13/14. I couldn’t believe, and I didn’t get into the detail of this with her, but I just couldn’t believe that, that a child would make, this up.

RT: And how would you characterise your relationship with your brother, who you believed had sexually abused your niece, how would you characterise your relationship with Liam after that revelation?

GA: Well, he’s still my brother, and, and, I’ve never disowned him. Uh, he, he left..

RT: Were ever you tempted to?

GA: Yes and no. He left the country, both, both sets of parents, he had separated from his wife Sally who is Aine’s mother, and, and both left independently of each other, left, left Ireland. Uh… So… later on, I discovered that my father was an abuser, and, ah, I was told that around 19 – 96, and I brought all of my siblings together, and that included my brother Liam. And we tried to work through, this, absolutely horrifying, you know, I was a man, ah, in my 50’s, ah, I, I had been out of my family home from 1969, and we are a large family so, you know, some of my siblings would be quite young, probably, and some of the youngest ones may be in their mid or late 30s now. So, this was just a horrifying thing to come to terms with.

RT: What did you think when you heard that, when somebody says, Gerry, your father is sexually abusing your brothers and sisters?

GA: Well, well, first of all by that time I did know an awful lot more, I, I had got professional advice in my capacity as an elected representative, I had to deal with other victims.

RT: But as your capacity, your capacity as a brother and a son?

GA: Well in my capacity as a son, as a son, uh, to tell you the truth, Ryan, I still haven’t dealt with it adequately.

RT: Why not? What’s taken you so long to deal with these very profound and such close personal issues?

GA: Because, because there are ten of us, and I’m the oldest and in Ireland a lot falls on the oldest, and we are a very, you know, close, close family, but, everybody comes at this differently, so you have ten people, and I don’t want to talk about my own family, they haven’t authorised me to talk about them, but let me just talk about it in a theoretical sense. Some were immediately in denial.

RT: Were you?

GA: No I wasn’t, no.

RT: You accepted it?

GA: I accepted it because of what I had… this is a huge taboo subject in Ireland.

RT: By talking about it, it becomes less taboo.

GA: One of the reasons why, why I wanted to publicise this, was because there are people out there who, are just absolutely destroyed, damaged, by abuse. Abuse of a child is, is the most heinous thing, you know, that, that could ever happen, a child’s life is stolen, a childhood is stolen, and, you know, there are lots of people who can’t have children, and I love children, and to think of, especially an iconic figure, you know, a father, a brother, some cases uncles, whatever, whatever happens to be the family, ah, circumstance.

RT: Gerry, do you, do you love your brother?

GA: I love all my brothers.

RT: Do you love Liam?

GA: I have to say I do, I don’t know what he is alleged to have done, and I do think he has to come to terms with it, and, I, I have talked to him and he has talked to me at, at great length as we tried to get Aine what Aine had wanted and..

RT: Why is Aine so angry at you, why is she, she seems very angry with you from what I gather, why do you think that is?

GA: Well, I think I just have to accept that. There are other..

RT: Did you let her down?

GA: Well, she certainly feels that I did.

RT: She said that when you wrote your autobiography, you wrote in your thank yous, I want to thank my brothers and sisters, especially, especially to Liam.

GA: Well I, I can understand Aine’s angst against me, because Aine is seeking, uh, justice, all I know is, that I did my best, sorry let me finish, in a very difficult, ah, circumstance, and, really, Aine will only get the satisfaction that she deserves and the justice that she deserves when this entire situation has gone through, ah, proper proceedings. The police let her down, the social services let her down, I’m, I’m her uncle. It, it is quite unusual that a member of the family of the alleged abuser would bring the alleged victim to social services, that’s, that’s quite an unusual phenomenon.

  • Jaggers

    The poll in the Irish Independent today shows that Sinn Fein’s support has increased by more than any other party in the past year (a 14% relative increase from 7% to 8%) and that Gerry Adams is the second most popular leader of any party in the 26 counties (after Eamon Gilmore of Labour). I suspect Gerry’s performance on the Late Late Show (which now has the faux-glitz of the Jay Leno show but with Ryan Turbridy, the poor man’s Jonathan Ross as host) will leave him more or less neutral with the Irish audience. The questioning was fairly intrusive and agressive, in particular for a show that had just had Samuel L Jackson and Michael Fassbender who sang for us. People will make up their own minds as to how Gerry came across – for me he came across as relatively sincere but I can’t wait for the process with his brother to reach a conclusion so that questions about support for Liam Adams and hiding crimes generally in Sinn Fein in the past can be confronted.
    Link to Irish Independent poll is

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fine-gael-surge-but-kenny-slips-further-2061826.html

  • Mark McGregor

    Jaggers,

    You are clearly new to reading polling data. A 1% rise doesn’t mean anything when the margin of error is 3%.

  • Pete Baker

    “GA: One of the reasons why, why I wanted to publicise this..”

    Rusty

    It might be worth noting Gerry’s less than transparent approach to ‘publicising’ this.

    Not that he was the one publicising anything, at any point.

  • Jaggers

    Mark

    I am prepared to bow to your statistical expertise (though I do recall studying statistics as part of a degree) but where did you get a 3% margin of error? I recall that statistical error depends on the size of sample for example?

    Anyway if you are right then presumably the Irish Independent’s characterisation as a “surge” the 4% increase in the FG vote from 30% to 34% seems inaccurate?

    Regardless, there is no disputing the poll that Gerry Adams is the second most popular leader of any party in the Republic.

    By the way I am not cheerleading Gerry Adams and SF but I think Rusty Nail goes too far by describing Adamses responses as Palinesque.

  • Jimmy Sands

    “Sinn Fein’s support has increased by more than any other party in the past year (a 14% relative increase from 7% to 8%)”

    Who says you can’t make bricks without straw?

  • John O’Connell

    A nervous interview for Gerry Adams. He was all over the place, and we only saw glimpses of the great leader in his former guise.

    I think the most damaging part of the interview is when he tells of all the abuse in his family. He may be looking for sympathy but it comes across badly as in “what kind of family are you from?”

    It won’t be long before Gerry goes as leader of Sinn Fein as Ryan Tubridy suggests. Its certainly long overdue. Or does Sinn Fein want to persist with fighting old wars with a crippled (emotionally) leader?

  • slug

    “The poll in the Irish Independent today shows that Sinn Fein’s support has increased by more than any other party in the past year (a 14% relative increase from 7% to 8%)”

    Amazing statistical illiteracy.

  • Jaggers

    Slug, did your message get curtailed or were you going to explain my illiteracy, and if you are able to summon something on statistical error and standard deviations, perhaps you could improve the general store of knowledge by explaining what a 7% to 8% voting share means.

  • slug

    Jaggers

    Basically, the sample figure for any party (SF) could easily vary by one or two % between different samples of this size (about 1000) drawn from the same population. In short, a 1% change isn’t statistically significant. SF by the way have been bobbing around this 8% (+ or – 1% or 2%) level for some time now.

  • Mark McGregor

    Jaggers,

    I hope that degree taught you that a sample size of 1,000 is assumed to have a 3% margin and polling companies like Millward Brown Lansdowne normally aim for a 1,000 sample across demographic profiles. Most agree that only a sample of 10,000+ will get you to a 1% margin – there is no way the Sindo paid for that.

    All we can reasonably assume on SF’s numbers is that any change is statistically insignificant.

    Though you are bizarrely trying to spin it into a 14% increase in company that is really trying hard not to laugh at you.

  • Jaggers

    Slug,

    very interesting though I don’t quite understand you – do you know the sample size in this case (I don’t) and when you say a 1% change isn’t “statistically significant” is that an absolute 1% (eg from 7% to 8%) or is it relative (eg 7% to 7.07%). Mark McGregor says above that the margin of error is 3%, now do you think he means absolute (eg 7% to 10%) or relative (7% to 7.21%)?

    Just asking because it seems I am new to statistics and I wouldn’t like to think of you as Dan Quayles correcting the elementary school kids spelling of potato by adding an ‘e’ at the end.

  • joeCanuck

    Jaggers,

    I could explain to you what statistical error and standard deviations etc mean but I won’t. Just to confuse you further, the accuracy of the quoted results would only likely be correct 19 times out of 20.
    Mark and others are correct; the results above are meaningless for SF and are subject to the same accuracy limits for all the parties.

  • West Sider

    It’s annoying to read this transcript given that RN has included every ‘uh’ and ‘ah’ and hesitation. Can Slugger not feature proper journalists with subbing skills?

    If RN believes every syllable should be noted, then I look forward to her transcript of future interviews and presentations by those she, er, likes.

    BTW – one final point, I know most folk don’t read Slugger, but the inclusion of the ‘uhs’ and ‘ahs’ means most people will tune out and click off at an early stage.

    Not what you intended, eh RN?

  • Jaggers

    Well Mark,

    “I hope that degree taught you that a sample size of 1,000 is assumed to have a 3% margin”

    If the population is 1,000 and the poll was of 1,000 I’d expect the sampling error to be zero, no? Anyway you’re plainly the expert and don’t worry about laughing at me – I’m happy to admit ignorance in lots of areas, you won’t be offending me. But maybe you might be able to explain what you mean by a 3% statistical error – is that absolute so that an 8% figure for SF could be 5-11% or is it relative ie the range is 7.76-8.24%. And presumably you know the sample the Indie’s pollsters took, could you share that?

  • joeCanuck

    If the population is 1,000 and the poll was of 1,000 I’d expect the sampling error to be zero, no?

    No; people like me usually lie to pollsters, for good reasons. If you say you support a Party that you don’t, it gives them a false sense of security. Conversely, if you deny supporting the Party that you do, it makes them try harder.

  • Mark McGregor

    Jaggers,

    I was a bit rough on you as you said ‘though I do recall studying statistics as part of a degree’ but as you’ve now admitted ‘I am new to statistics’ I’m more inclined to informing.

    Most polling companies go for a sample of 1,000 people across a geographical and demographical spread that hopes to reflect the overall makeup of the population as a whole. It is widely accepted that in any sampling of 1,000 people there is a +/-3% margin of error. Some think this can be reduced to +/-1% sampling 10,000+ people.

    Polls in Ireland traditionally sample 1,000 (apart from some very dodgy telephone polls done by the Independent).

    If any party’s change from a previous poll carried out with the same sampling methodology varies by less than 3% it is reasonably assumed to be ‘statistically insignificant’.

    Hope this helps, sorry for being a bit harsh earlier.

  • Jaggers

    Thanks for that partial explanation, though just to be pedantic I said “Just asking because it seems I am new to statistics” which is somewhat different to admitting I am new to statistics, no? Perhaps tone doesn’t translate so well in written material after all.

    I’m not sure that’s right that a 3% margin of error applies with a 1,000 sample – if the sample is in Ireland with 3.2m voters then the error will be lower than in the UK with 40m voters, no? However of course I accept there is a margin of error unless you poll 100% of the population.

    I am trying to recall though if the % margin of error is absolute or relative, can you help me out or do I need to look at textbooks again?

    And lastly no offence taken at any comments – I take them in the good humour in which they’re no doubt intended 😉

  • Turgon

    Jaggers,
    I am not a statistician but I think the following is correct.

    The population in question is not 1000: it is actually the voting population of the RoI; a few million.

    The sample size in opinion polls is almost always about 1,000. That is usually a carefully chosen sample with care taken across demographic, age, sex, class etc. issues.

    That 1000 sample creates a set of voting intentions. Typically 95% accuracy can be predicted within 3%. That means that in 19 of 20 samples the results will be accurate to within 3% either way. Hence, if Sinn Fein’s true vote is 7% 19 out of 20 samples will give a result of 4-10% (3% either way).

    Now these polls take no account of lying and the tendency of people not to admit to voting for parties which they might feel people do not want them to vote for. There are multiple problems but in all honesty the others are correct: a change in SF vote from 7% to 8% is of no statistical relevance. It might be a true rise but in these sorts of polls is much, much more likely to be random variations around the true level of support. Remember in a 1000 sample size all it means is that 10 more people said they would vote SF. That might be a real rise but is more likely to be the play of chance.

  • slug

    “I’m not sure that’s right that a 3% margin of error applies with a 1,000 sample – if the sample is in Ireland with 3.2m voters then the error will be lower than in the UK with 40m voters, no?”

    No. The sample size is all that matters not the sample proportion, interestingly enough.

  • Turgon

    Jaggers,
    Posts crossed. The fact that there are 3.2 million rather than 40 million I think has no significant bearing on the sampling error though I could be wrong on that.

  • joeCanuck

    Slug,

    Not just sample size but getting a truly representative sample which can be quite difficult. That’s a major reason for the 95% accuracy and the =/- error band. It depends on so many things; even the time of day that the telephone call is made, for example.

  • Mark McGregor

    Slug is correct. Proportion doesn’t come into it once the overall group being opined reaches 10k+. The margin of error with a 1,000 polling sample will remain 3% if there is a proper attempt at demographic/geographic sampling.

    10,000 being polled gets you to a 1% margin but is prohibitively expensive in most cases.

  • Jaggers

    Turgon,

    I’ll take you at your word – there’s a quiet confidence in what you write. No doubt you would take issue with the journo at the Indie characterising the 4% increase for FG from 30% to 34% as a “surge” to be a bit of hyperbole?

    Regardless of the SF party position though, the individual leaders poll that has Gerry Adams having 37% satisfaction is statistically sounder – Brian Cowen has 22%, Enda has 26% and John Gormley of the Greens has 25%. Only Eamon Gilmore has a greater satisfaction rating at 54%.

  • Turgon

    Jaggers,
    You are correct. The rise from 30% to 34% just breaches the play of chance but firstly the 30% could have been actually 33% and the 34% actually 31% if you see what I mean. Hence, to call it a surge is somewhere between hyperbole and nonsense.

    The personal sanctification numbers being higher may be of more use. It is unlikely that Adams’s satisfaction levels are lower than Cowen’s in that Cowen will be 19 times out of 20 between 19% and 25% whereas Adams will 19 out of 20 times be 34% – 40%.

    Of course a further problem is that satisfaction is with that leader in isolation and not as compared to the others which is different to the voting intentions. This is clearly seen in that the satisfaction levels of course do not add up to 100% but rather more.

    The best way as far as I understand of following polls is the poll of polls like Newsnight uses in the run up to the UK general election. I do not understand how they do the maths but I think it is valid and helps get around these sampling problems by using lots and lots of 1000 sample sizes.

    We do need a serious statistician to explain this prior to the elections and I will try to get one. I used to know a few but it is a while ago. If anyone is able to do this please do contact me (or better still Mick).

  • Turgon

    Personal satisfaction not sanctification obviously. If I followed Freud it might be a Freudian slip. Actually it is agreeing to a spell checker’s suggestion without thinking.

  • Jaggers

    Turgon/Slug/Mark/JoeCanuck

    Thanks for the explanations. I am tempted to dig out the textbooks again at some point myself though I’d guess that Joe’s points about disguising voting intentions are specific to voter polling statistics? Again, thank you and for me, it’s goodnight to the broadband for today.

  • Mark McGregor

    This is funny. A demonstration of Slugger nerdiness. We all leap at the chance to argue over numbers and completely ignore Rusty’s post.

    Which for the record is showing some serious bollixology from Adams.

  • All this talk of ‘percentages and margin of errors’ count for nothing. Die hard S/F supporters will stick with them, others like me will avoid them like the plague.

    I still say it is absolutely possible Gerry Adams reaction is truthful, even hiding the abuse for so long, is something many families try to do. I have great sympathy for him in his predicament. However his recent behaviour, his less than full explanations and his alleged involvement in the cover up of rape cases are now his and S/Fs biggest problems.

    As for his continual attacks on the police and social services, I suppose thats to be expected, but he must know there will be no investigations until all of the trials are over.

  • sdelaneys

    “It’s annoying to read this transcript given that RN has included every ‘uh’ and ‘ah’ and hesitation. Can Slugger not feature proper journalists with subbing skills?” west sider

    Surely the ‘uh’s and ‘ah’s are important in the context of the interview as they show Adams unsure of himself and with few direct answers.

    Take this exchange, “RT: What did you think when you heard that, when somebody says, Gerry, your father is sexually abusing your brothers and sisters?

    GA: Well, well, first of all by that time I did know an awful lot more, I, I had got professional advice in my capacity as an elected representative, I had to deal with other victims”
    What could a journalist ‘with subbing skills’ do there except perhaps say , ‘Gerry did not answer the question.’

    Good job, rusty nail.

  • Sounds to me like he libeled the Tribune again.

  • Dixie Elliott

    I see he’s still claiming he never joined the IRA…

    Therefore he was willing to encourage others to go out and do what he himself was unwilling to do.
    What gave him the right to decide when we should have peace and when we should have war if he was only ever willing to be a politician?

    Many young men and women died before Gerry himself became one of those unscrupulous politicians and so called peacemakers that he referred to below in 1976…

    The weakness of the IRA of that period was that instead of pursuing the war to it’s bitter end come what may, they allowed unscrupulous politicians and so called “Peacemakers” to gain the upper hand. The result was the betrayal of the Fight for Freedom followed by a vicious and brutal Civil War and of course partition. It is to be hoped that the lesson of that period will not be lost on today’s leaders. There is only one time to talk of peace and that is when the war has been won not while it is raging. The time to talk of peace is when the British have left Ireland, otherwise they will find some excuse to remain.

    Brownie [Gerry Adams] Republican News , May 8, 1976.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Rusty, don’t know what color the sky is in your world, but the interview was just fine. Pippakin is entirely correct, as most simply don’t report intra-familial sexual abuse. Liam, as biological father abusing biological daughter, is otherwise the least likely to reoffend. And as Gerry said, not only notion of family (collective) shame, also some other children, with the next wife, who weren’t abused, and what will be said to them on the playground when all this makes the evening news? And by the way, go back and read Aine’s reported statements. She did say that she wanted Gerry to put her in position to confront her father and get his acknowledgment that he had done her rather wrong. There doesn’t seem to any dispute that Gerry tried to do that but Liam met the attempt with his denial. Lastly in this respect, the likely reason why some don’t reoffend all that much is that their mental/spiritual/pick-whatever-word-you-like state is such that the discovery/disclosure and attendant shame acts as that line in the sand that is never crossed again.

    Now, if you had instead chosen to opine on the show’s host, well, demons? Maybe we can call the good padre to perform the exorcism. Someone will need to bring their herd of swine. That being said, loved Gerry’s response to the IRA inquisition: you’re beloved grandpa was anti-Treaty and took up arms against the Free State, and so you’re complaint here is what, exactly? Oh, by the way, on a semi-related note, well, note here, for the record, if Darkie can cruise Belfast looking for BA to shoot, don’t know why Mulcahy and O’Higgins can’t do the same (i.e., shoot anti-Treaty IRA on sight). If it’s good enough for Darkie… Otherwise don’t have much concern over shoot to kill operations, since what was the South Armagh sniper unit(s) but a shoot to kill operation. Now back to where I was, or almost, compare Gerry’s “theoretical”, some were “in denial”, with our host friend still in denial about that civil war, and so he doesn’t want to go there (can’t confront the notion that beloved grandpa was on the wrong side in that war).

    Lastly, why does Gerry have to go? Seems to still have what it takes. In case you missed the point, Mr. and Mrs. Robinson do have family and so good that Gerry said what he said about the effect of Irisgate on them. Some good words for them and for the political process.

  • Stewart

    Not sure about the the ‘uh’s and ‘ah’s etc in rusty’s post.

    It’s sounds a bit weird. Did he spend the time doing it himself?

    It’s a bit like asking a member of the Worker’s Party why they are the only Pro-agreement party in the north who have an active and armed paramilitary wing. ah! ah! ah! oh but!

  • GFASupporterButRealist

    Jaggers, sorry, but you are really reaching here with this “14 per cent increase” for SF etc on the basis of going from 7-8 per cent. The internationally accepted margin of error in professional polling is 3-4 per cent. I too took a course during my primary degree in stats. but you don’t need to have done that to make an intelligent assessment of polling before elections or between them.
    ANYWAY, that is way off the main point. Gerry Adams has not redeemed himself in this interview; his credibility is still greatly damaged and more so. He fudges,
    makes points which questions did not touch on, doesn’t clarify enough, to say the least, claims lack of knowledge of what wd be massive scandal within any family. He in fact raises as many if not more questions in this latest excursion on the airwaves. It is a continuing pattern and strikingly so. Gerry needs to be truly open and honest and admit errors and express regrets that he did not do more and indeed should have done one hell of a lot more to help his niece and not just his brother. It is unimpressive. Why shd we give Gerry Adams any more benefit of the doubt ? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me again and again, well…….

  • Jimmy McGurk

    I thought Gerry Adams came across a lot better in the clip than in the transcript.

    The clip shows that he was being constantly interrupted by an aggressive questioning style in an interview that was mainly dealing with the personal dimension of his family’s tragedy.

    To describe him as Palinesque is not on the mark. I’d have to agree with Jaggers[4] on that one.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Agree with much of what you said but, Gerry Adams does have serious questions to answer.

    He tried to help his family – fine

    He tried to help his niece – fine

    But, he has been less than open in his time line regarding his brother, and I am not so sure someone who abuses his own child will not abuse another. Not sure enough to leave any child with him thats for sure.

    Then there are the allegations of covering up and assisting rapists escape, these are just as serious and must be answered.

    You mentioned the Robinsons, GA could take a leaf out of their book. PR demotes himself, temporarily, and the heat is off immediately, and you will have noticed, has not returned as strongly.

    GA needs to put some distance and some time between these allegations and his party.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Agree with much of what you said but, Gerry Adams does have serious questions to answer.

    He tried to help his family – fine

    He tried to help his niece – fine

    But, he has been less than open in his time line regarding his brother, and I am not so sure someone who abuses his own child will not abuse another. Not sure enough to leave any child with him thats for sure.

    Then there are the allegations of covering up and assisting rapists escape, these are just as serious and must be answered.

    You mentioned the Robinsons, GA could take a leaf out of their book. PR demotes himself, temporarily, and the heat is off immediately, and you will have noticed, has not returned as strongly.

    GA needs to put some distance and some time between these allegations and his party.

  • Marcionite

    Leaving the stats aside, GA has lost his verbal and grammatical articulation in recent years. Compare recent writings, interviews with past ones.

    I’m not casting aspersions on his health but from a human perspective, I hope he is ok. We expect party leaders to be gods of everything but he is clearly human.

    A knife is good at cutting but it’s a useless spoon. GA are good at warrior politics and rhetoric but falter very badly on non Peace Process/Conflict topics.

  • David Crookes

    Rusty Nail, many thanks for the great diligence that you’ve displayed in furnishing us with such a meticulous transcription.

  • Ulick

    Is this the ultimate definition of obsession – how long did it take you to transcribe that RN? At least you could have attempted to make some sort of point at the end.

    Malachi, did you plagiarise that line or is it an original thought? I must have missed the bit where Gerry mentions the Tribune.

  • Kathy C

    posted by Kathleen Collins

    after watching the clip…I noticed that Gerry Adams was upset that he had been asked to campaign for sinn fein members in the south who later left the party…. Too bad he wasn’t upset with campaigning with his brother Liam at a time he believed Liam had sexually abused his daughter. I found that rather disturbing.

  • Mick Fealty

    Ulick,

    Any chance of play the ball rather than the man/men?

    Here’s Eamonn’s after show take on Twitter: “Late Late with Gerry Adams didn’t work. The Sinn Fein president came across as troubled. There was too much jumping about.”

    The trouble is if he’d not come across as troubled he might have been in even bigger trouble. This was an attempt to get Adams back into a national slot quickly and demonstrate that he’s not going anywhere soon.

    Tubridy was generally up to the mark (I’m not one of his biggest fans), although he might have mentioned that Aine’s account and Adams account on who went with her to social services don’t match.

    Also, that Gerry had little to do with this being a public story. That falls to Aine, UTV and the Sunday Tribune. There was an oblique reference to the original story he gave to UTV that he had disowned the brother for 15 years, but it wasn’t pursued.

    From a SF perspective, this was a rehab interview. If it works it will only be because Adams (and the whole northern side show) is just that for southern audiences, a curious side show.

    Dixie,

    Thanks for that. For me that points to the real underlying trouble for journalists dealing with Adams. To what extent can anything he says be treated as reliable testimony?

    Given the Belfast Agreement was in part an gentleman’s agreement not to dig too deeply into the past, Adams’ is at this point of the interview at his most profoundly unconvincing, despite all the hmmms and has Rusty has mapped above. And with the dissidents racking up their campaign, it is also evident that he can have very little to say to them on these more overtly political matters (child abuse and how party’s deal with it is of course political also, but in Adams this stuff is way too personal for any rival party to get a blow in on him over this).

    If there is an opportunity for Sinn Fein’s main rivals, the SDLP, it is that unencumbered by their secret pasts they can generally say what they mean and call a spade a spade on many of these matters.

    Adams may not be wrong to shift from that statement in the mid seventies as Brownie, to where he is today but his and his party’s vulnerability lies in their their incapacity to speak honestly about that change, what it means for nationalists now, how they came to that change and, more importantly for people now, what it means for the future.

    If the SDLP were to open up an engaged conversation about, on one hand, the failure of the armed strategy, and offer instead a viable and realistic unarmed way towards unification, they might become a more credible and competitive opposition in the eyes of their lost vote.

    Those who say that the stoops cannot win by simply attacking SF are right in essence if that it is all that’s involved. They need to be offer a more attractive Plan B. Otherwise Adams can do dozens of mediocre interviews and it won’t amount to a hill of beans other than confirm people in the decided preference for him and his party.

  • Jimmy Sands

    The body language was textbook

  • Rory Carr

    …the textbook presumably being The Naked Ape by Desmond Morris which popularised the term when it was serialised in the Daily Mirrorin 1967 so allowing every saloon bar Johnnie to become his own instant zoologist.

  • Mick Fealty

    Rory,

    Yesterday’s Saturday View is well worth listening to. In it Ciaran Cuffe makes the point that politicians are expected to be able to give up most of their personal lives to their jobs/vocation and then on top of that they must turn up on the Late Late and give an account of themselves as well rounded normal individuals that people can relate to. He was thinking about Kenny, but he might as well have been talking about Adams.

    That, as Cuffe points out, is actually impossible. The best we’ll ever get is a facsimile: like Blair’s ‘pretty straight kinda guy’. Pols don’t watch sport all weekend, nor do they get to spend it with their families like many of us ordinary folk do.

    The details of the Adams story don’t bear public scrutiny, possibly mostly because he acted like any ordinary human being might have when confronted with the alleged sins of his brother. It is not just the ‘pyschological tells’ which indicate he’s not yet prepared to give a full and frank account of what actually happened.

    We know from the way the story came out that his current narrative has been stitched together over a three to four week period when different accounts falsified his original statements to UTV and RTE. He complaint that the journalist concerned did not come to him (Thursday before a Sunday publication does not seem to have been enough for Gerry), is somewhat beside the point.

    None of this is good for Adams the politician. The party is at pains to tell us that he is not going anywhere and I for one believe them. But like it or not he has just been through a public life changing experience. As has Mr Robinson. Things will never quite be the same again, for either of their parties.

  • Rory Carr

    Therein lies the rub, Mick. When treating with one’s family compassion must ever trump political expediency – unless one is a John Selwyn Gummer.

  • Rory Carr

    … or perhaps a Stalin. When the Third Reich offered to exchange Stalin’s son, whom it held as a prisoner-of-war, in return for German high ranking personnel held by the Soviets, Stalin’s terse reply was, “I have no son.”.

  • The difference between two people is sometimes quite striking.

    Martin McGuinness admits he was in the IRA but ‘cannot possibly talk about most of that, pledges dont ya know’. For most it is enough, he is never seriously questioned.

    Gerry Adams denies, denies, denies, and the questions never go away and colour and shape every statement he makes.

    It may well be the north has the best DFM after all.

    The real elephant in the room and one of the reasons for GAs peculiar memory is: was the abuse happening when he lived at home. He of course says not, but well, he would say that wouldnt he….

  • Cynic2

    Presumably he was just as keen on the publicity thing when he allegedly told another rape victim to ‘just get on with her life and get over it’ while his organisation denied her permission to seek counselling because of the risk of publicity

  • Cynic2

    If the abuse was happening when he was at home it would colour his reactions to such abuse all his life. He may have left home determined to make sure such abuse never happened in any home of his.

    He succeeded and may have assumed it was the same for all his siblings. To find out it was not would have been a terrible shock, but his reaction would be to deal with it as he dealt with his own trauma.

    We cannot condemn him for his father or his brother, but we can and must say he was wrong. He must now clean up this appalling legacy.

  • wee buns

    If the abuse was happening when he was at home, when he was a child, even if it was not directed at him, he was to some extent also the victim of child abuse.

  • Scaramoosh

    “If the abuse was happening when he was at home, when he was a child, even if it was not directed at him, he was to some extent also the victim of child abuse.”

    In much the same way that those of us that lived through the troubles as children were also abused.

  • Wee buns

    Exactly. We should all be very careful. This country is full of survivors of child abuse. Be very careful how and what we condemn.

    Scaramoosh

    You appear to have very little empathy for victims of sexual child abuse. I agree all the children in those sectarian ghettos were victims, but how many of them feared going home more than they feared the streets.

  • wee buns

    ‘In much the same way that those of us that lived through the troubles as children were also abused.’

    I don’t read that statement of fact as non empathetic.

  • wee buns

    Of course you dont!

  • wee buns

    Maybe you would like to explain why you do…?

  • wee buns

    In those bad old days all children ran the risk of annoying some activist hardcase or the security forces. Few were sexually abused by either.

    Most of the children could have run home and felt safe. Most not all, for some home appears to have been the place they were beaten and raped. In addition they had to go out the next day and be ‘normal children’.

  • Adam’s did not come across as any thing much, beyond pure Gerry.

    Pippakin raises a good point about whether his father abused whilst Gerry still lived at home, as in my experience, especially in a large family, there is very little that goes on in the family home that they kids do not know about. Given his age it is quiet possible he had left home before his dad became an abuser.

    One of the questions which Adams has consistently refused to answer and he again touches on it in this interview, when he says he took advice on the matter of pedophile’s. We really need to know whom he went and asked for advice, not least because the main institution within Ireland, the Catholic church, has an appalling history worldwide of giving dangerous advice on this subject.

    I fear Gerry Adams turned to the Church for advice and he still believes much of the crap he was told, hence he was comfortable getting his brother a job working with children.

    Having said all this Adams is in a dreadful position with this, and is clearly out of his depth and who wouldn’t be. I would not wish this on my worst enemy. I feel it is a major flaw in his character that he believes he can come on TV and prattle around the edges about this, and it will do any good and help who ? I doubt the victim would have been reassure after watching this farce.

    Leaving this aside I found his answers about the Robinson’s pitiful, nothing more than playing to the gallery as if he were some non political president of Ireland.

    These people have had their hand in the till, Adams has a duty to expose their behaviour, instead he gets the violin out.

    Mick Fealty
    Politicians are not expected to be able to give up most of their personal lives to their jobs, nor do most of them do so. All most people ask of them is they do their jobs honestly and when they slip up, as most of us do at times, not to wriggle and lie and cover up, as the likes of the Robinson’s and many UK MP’s undoubtedly have.

    Less of such nonsense please, your be telling us next politicians work hard and are underpaid, Tell me, how many other families in the north with both partners in full time work earn £500K
    plus? Even with ‘legal ‘expenses most MP’s pull in not far from 100K, others much more.

    If our public representatives earned the average wage of their constituents we might just get a better type of politician. After all it is difficult to see how we in the UK and Ireland could get any worse. (Iraq, Afghanistan, celtic tiger, and city of London banking crash, ahaaa)

  • Mickhall

    It is possible the abuse started after GA left home, but in my opinion unlikely. All I have read and heard of abusers is they do not start late in life. If it happened he knew. Sadly at that age he would also know there was nothing he could do about it.

    I think it is understandable that GA has prevaricated as much as he has. In a tight corner, asked unwelcome questions, his first reaction appears to be prevarication. In addition on this most intimate of subjects getting the truth out of anyone is hard work and very much part of the healing process. It is not something to expect on the Late, late whatsit.

    I also think you may be right that he went to the church for advice. It is the first instinct in many of us. It too was wrong. God knows what they would have told him, but we can all guess.

    He is a politician but he is also a product of his upbringing. It is to his great credit that he has done so well for himself and for his party. He must now act with even greater courage and deal honestly with a subject most of us would run away from.

    By comparison being a cuckold is not only a subject for sympathy and even humour. It is also easy!

  • wee buns

    I was questioning this assumption: ‘You appear to have very little empathy for victims of sexual child abuse’, not the experiences of child victims of war or sexual abuse, between which there are obvious connections, which may have been partly Scaramooshe’s point.

    Back to Gerry. He would appear to be to some degree a victim of child sexual abuse, which may explain (not excuse) to some degree his failings (insensitivy and more)in dealing with abuse. It is complex. Certainly unprecendented.

    In terms of child survivors we must be careful not to hoist a hierarchy of victimhood thereupon. The damage from the ‘bad old days’ is not over by a long shot as the number of traumatized (now) adults attempt to lead ‘normal’ lives. This episode is an opportunity to address that pityful lack of funding, focus, compassion on behalf of the institutions for victims.

  • John O’Connell

    Pippakin

    He is a politician but he is also a product of his upbringing. It is to his great credit that he has done so well for himself and for his party.

    A lot of people died because of the hardness of his upbringing that led him into the IRA allegedly.

    When I was growing up there were tough children like Gerry Adams around and I can only have pity on them now. God knows what they were going through in their own homes.

    Yes, Gerry is a product of his upbringing and the product that Gerry brought to this world was toughness and anger that generated a strategy that is in effect the rejection of Christianity’s sword (of using embarrassment) in favour of armed struggle (or the tactical use of human suffering). Thank God he failed or the world would have turned into hell on earth.

    In the end he has refused to say that violence was wrong and I cannot therefore believe that he consciously understands what he has committed himself in the political sphere. There is no logic to ending violence and not rejecting it unless you think you’ll have to go back one day. Do you think he might resign then in disgrace? Not a chance probably.

  • wee buns

    Empathy is knowing or seeking to know the difference between the child at risk on the streets and the child at even more risk in his or her own home.

    I totally agree, GAs problems hilight an area we have been reluctant (to say the least) to discuss.

    All of the children of those ghettos were victims and it is to the enormous credit of most people that they do lead such, apparently, ‘normal’ lives. We should indeed invest in research and assistance to those who suffered during those times.

    John O’Connell

    GA may have been, almost certainly was, hardened by his upbringing, but he was not solely responsible for the trouble on the streets. A hard, tough kid growing up where he did. He had to be able to make some tough decisions.

    I am not condoning what he or others did. I am keeping strictly to the subject of child abuse and how his, possible, exposure to it from an early age, almost certainly affected every aspect of his life.

    We are on the road to a united Ireland and I know you want that as much as any of us. You must know we are so far up that road largely because of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. If only because they both knew, and had the power, to say: its time to talk!

  • wee buns

    Pip. I disagree: Empathy is an all inclusive recognition of suffering. There is no research needed to know that war results in trauma, yet the GFA has zero provision for that, which is in itself an abuse of the people. The Rape Crisis Centre being broke says it all.

    Mickhall:
    ‘Having said all this Adams is in a dreadful position with this, and is clearly out of his depth and who wouldn’t be. I would not wish this on my worst enemy.’
    I agree and also wonder, who, if anyone, does his (or anyone’s) commentary help.

  • wee buns

    You are right of course, but in order to fully empathise with someones plight you need to be able to distinguish between levels of hurt. It is quite possible to have grown up in a war situation and yet to have felt safe and protected at home. Not everyone had that. Empathy is about knowing the difference.

    As for your parting shot about this and other commentary. I think it is long overdue, perhaps one day we will be able to say this is where real healing began. Not just for Gerry Adams, but for any other victims of abuse who read this and other articles. At least we can say the subject is in the open and we are talking. Perhaps the government will, seeing the strength of anger and feeling here, begin to address the problem properly, It is time they provided real funding and support. Gerry Adams himself says he is talking, partly because he finally has to, but also because he recognises he may help someone else.

    Lastly we are still awaiting an arrest warrant for Liam Adams, charges to be formerly placed against those accused of rape. It is important no one be allowed to think any of this is forgotten.

  • Los Lobos

    The problem for Sinn Fein at the moment is that Gerry Adams himself has become the story. When that happens the leader is doomed and must fall on his sword as this situation puts any message the Party wishes to “get out” onto the back burner. Sinn Fein may look reasonably good on paper in the South but realisticly are in free fall as the ship jumpers in the last few months attest to. Even in NI they are looking decidedly shakey, in Tyrone recently several senior Party heads were almost ran out of a gathering in Galbally. In the Mid Tyrone area the complaint is that nobody ever see’s or hear’s tell of Pat Doherty, absentee MP. SF have walked themselves into a perfect storm. They have become the Fainna fail of NI because of their closeness to builders and developers and the way they use their weight to influence Planning up here. Fainna Fail are still in Government as are SF in NI, however this will not be the case for ever. Once the news gets out that they have been seeing to thmselves at the expense of others it will be lights out for quite a few Republicians who now enjoy a lavished lifestyle as servants of the crown. Gerry has had a good ride as party leaders shelf-lives go but right now it’s time he went and dealt with the disturbing crimes within his own family and retired from political life altogether. It would free up so many people within SF to re-examine where the republician movement is headed and do a great service to the country as a whole as stagnation benifits no one.

  • John O’Connell

    pippakin

    We are on the road to a united Ireland and I know you want that as much as any of us. You must know we are so far up that road largely because of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness.

    Actually I believe that we’re presently on the road to an independent Northern Ireland where the Green and Orange forget their differences which aren’t much and acknowledge their similarities. The ensuing state will be, I fear, a state with an Old Testament value system and will be a thorn in the side of every state in the region like Israel. That’s what Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness mean to me.

    Only non-violent social democracy (SDLP) can actually deliver on a united Ireland.

  • John O’Connell

    If you are right it will be much reduced in size and I am not sure it would be economically viable.

    The SDLP and S/F want a united Ireland. If we can get to the point where the children of unionist families have grown up without the hatred and violence of the past, then they will have a clear, clean choice, what makes you think they would vote for a mini Israel? Or that the state could a) afford it or b) expect the Brits to pay for it.

    Los Lobos

    Why should GA step aside permanently? I agree he should step aside until the trials are over, but he is not implicated in the alleged acts. He is said to have been mistaken in his dealings with the alleged victims.

    It is not a hanging or retiring offence for him. The big mistake is to think this can be brushed aside. It cannot, any accused who are members of S/F must be suspended pending the result of trials.

  • John O’Connell

    Pippakin

    Economics would be the least of our problems. But it might be quite a succesful state in terms of supporting business, but it will of course need to be bailed out by UK/USA/EU.

    If we can get to the point where the children of unionist families have grown up without the hatred and violence of the past, then they will have a clear, clean choice, what makes you think they would vote for a mini Israel?

    You’re much too naive if you believe that that is how things are forgotten about. The reality is that the unionists will never forget because they have a reason for not forgetting – they fear a genocide at some point and violence from republicans simply fuels that fear. Only a complete break from violence through Christian repentance can break the logjam. A complete change of heart is needed before the unionist changes his paranoid fears.

  • John O’Connell

    Then the sooner we stop the violence the better dont you agree.

    You are right there are some who are bought up on loyalist traditions, they are the minority among unionists, they will not get stronger unless we feed their paranoia.

    It is true some do fear a form of genocide. In the past some would say we have given them cause to fear. It is up to us to reassure them. We cannot expect them to change their minds if everything we do feeds their fears.

  • John O’Connell

    pippakin

    But it is the past that lives on in them. It used to be said that every bullet fired by the IRA was a nail in the coffin of a united Ireland. There is truth in that and it lives on. Republicans need to change their attitude to the past from one that eulogizes violence (armed struggle) to one that accepts that it was a mistake.

  • John O’Connell

    I totally agree!

    A bullet or bomb loses the vote of the victim, his family, friends, neighbours, the list is almost endless!

    We cannot hope for true repentance from people who consider their part in the violence bought us to where we are. It would be wrong and in a way it would be denying a truth. It is true that until the violence fully erupted the Brits were quite happy to leave the north to its own sectarian devices. The Brits neglected the north and it has cost them.

    It is the youth of today we must persuade and we can do that if we approach as equals, nothing else will work. We will have to embrace these horrible marches, accept they are a part of a tradition that is as much Republican as it is Loyalist. It takes two to tango, and it takes two to fight a war.

    Those marches are as much a part of our history as anything else. Imagine how great the marches will be when there is a united Ireland. We wont notice these little marches by comparison!

  • Alias

    Liam Adams was a member of the Provos, and that organisation handed control of its member vetting department (Internal Security Unit) to British agents (JJ Magee and Freddie Scappaticci – other agents in this unit included Kevin Fulton, Eamon Collins and Roy McShane) who were appointed to those positions by Gerry Adams.

    The Internal Security Unit had the purpose of detecting agents within the ranks of the Provos/Shinners and of ensuring that new recruits were not compromised or capable of being compromised. Since this unit was controlled by agents, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out it could not perform its denoted purpose. Having the actual purpose of protecting agents within the ranks of the Provos/Shinners and ensuring that compromised recruits were allowed into the Provos/Shinners and that the uncompromised and uncompromising were kept out.

    That is why the Provos/Shinners had a policy of not removing sex offenders from the ranks of the Provos/Shinners. They presented a huge security risk to the organisation because they were highly susceptible to being controlled by the security services via blackmail and coercion. They were included because they were a security risk.

    So Gerry can act as innocent as he likes, but he knows why he did what he did – and it has nothing to do with ignorance about how to handle child sex abuse.

  • Alias

    This takes us into the realms of agents, double agents and who knows how many versions of the same thing.

    If child abusers were reported to the police or dealt with privately there would have been no need to worry about infiltrators of that description. I am not a supporter of Gerry Adams but I have to say I have noticed that some people seem more concerned with using this tragedy to bring him down, than with dealing with the appalling subject of child abuse.

  • DerTer

    pippakin

    “We are on the road to a united Ireland…You must know we are so far up that road largely because of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness.”
    Whatever the merits of a united Ireland, kindly describe just how far up that road you think we are – to give you a prompt: how much further are we than we were at the time of Sunningdale?
    I also offer you a counter-proposition: We are much further away now from a united Ireland than we were in 1969, because of the bitterness and polarisation caused by the so-called ‘armed struggle’ of SF/IRA – which Adams fully supported and probably took part in.
    For what it’s worth, I thought he did quite well given the personal sensitivity of the issues being put to him by Tubridy, and I though RN’s transcript really didn’t need to include the hmmmms.

  • DerTer

    Martin McGuinness has won the, admittedly, grudging respect of many in the unionist community. So I think we are further along the road than many people think.

    We will not gain the hardliners, but we may gain their childrens vote. It is not so long to wait and I see a relaxation in many unionists and that means opportunity.

    I thought GA did ok in the interview. As well as could be expected anyway. It is a difficult subject for anyone and the closer we are to victims the harder it gets.

    I knew of a case where the victim was disowned by her family because she reported her abuser – and he was guilty – and the family knew it!

  • Los Lobos

    pippakin I don’t know how plain you want it. I have already said why GA should stand down, he has become the story himself and his cadre of underlings are bloating themselves as servants of the crown. No party can survive that no matter how much they may wish to, no party can dine on he past glories of sickos and hope it will be accepted as the truth- it won’t. Everywhere Mr Adams goes in the future will be dominated by the fact that he didn’t do the right thing with regards to an alleged child abuser. There is the other question of how do you talk to 1 million plus people like me who have no wish to join the Banana/nama Republic across the border, not just because any move in that direction would cause a civil war or because of its basket case economy or indeed because of the shocking criminal behaviour of some of it’s leading Politicans. Whilst all these points are very valid and should be reason enough for any sane individual to even contemplate a United Ireland, they pale into insignifiance compared to the prospect that Gerry Adams and his crew of cut-throats could justify their war on civilians in Northern Ireland for 35 years. They killed the most civilians, they did it in the name of a United Ireland and they are now doing the exact same thing as Fainna Fail- lining their pockets at the expense of those of us who suffered when they had the armalite as well as the ballot box. So no joy can ever be had on that front. The irony now is that they don’t kill us, they just sell whatever isn’t nailed down and make us pay through stealth taxes imposed by their ringmasters. I hope you are a young person pippakin because you will have to live for a very long time to see your dream realised.

  • Medillen

    Alias, its funny how every outed informant in the IRA is now concluded, by you, to have been in the IRA’s Internal Security Department. Admittedly Fred Scappattici was, but Roy McShane was a middle ranking operative in Turf Lodge who became a Sinn Fein driver for leadership figures. Eamon Collins was an Intelligance operative in the Newry area and Kevin Fulton or Peter Keilly is a self publicist seeking a war pension.

  • Los Lobos

    I am sorry you are so bitter and I do understand why. I am not so young that I dont remember those days, such pain and anger. But it was not a one way street, there are guilty people on all sides.

    Ireland is in debt, but so is the UK, in fact most of Europe is in debt. The days of easy bail outs are gone.

    The child abuse scandal in S/F will be dealt with, if S/F have not put themselves out of reach of implication they will suffer when the cases go to court.

    I know the Catholic community has serious problems with child abuse, but so does the protestant community, Kincora was not, I am sure, an isolated case and as we become more open, more scandals will emerge.

    If you look at politicians in Ireland and the UK you will see that compared to some European states our politicians are squeaky clean!

    The politicians you refer to as selling the family silver, are almost all Brits and it started with Thatcher!

    I am sorry you feel such anger and pain. I hope time will show you that it is no longer necessary.

  • Scaramoosh

    Los Lobos

    Gerry Adams and his crew are in Government in N.Ireland. The people in the South do not want them.