DUP Support for Islam4UK parade through Wootton Bassett and Republican parade through Shankill?

DUP MLA Nelson McCausland used the platform of his party’s meeting with the Parades Commission today to contrast the end of apartheid in South Africa with the ‘cultural apartheid’ in Portadown, where the downtrodden Orangemen are apparently being refused a basic human right (This must call from some variation on Godwin’s law to be established with reference to apartheid.)
The ludicrousness of the proposition once again beggars belief, but it also provides the opportunity to pose a number of questions to those of similar minds with Nelson on Slugger.
Firstly, If parading is a universal right, then why have unionist politicians vehemently opposed the few republican parades which seek to infringe on interface and mixed communities (never mind pass through completely unionist residential districts.)
Secondly, does the Orange Order- and, come to think of it, DUP- support the campaign by Islam4UK to march through Wootton Bassett?
Thirdly, consider this scenario. Imagine if I wanted to organise a republican parade from Ardoyne, passing via Twaddel Avenue/ West Circular Road to the Springfield Road. I’m willing to enter into negotiations with local residents, and even unionist political parties/ church leaders/ loyalist paramilitaries. In the event of local residents refusing to not only support my right to parade but also refuse to meet with me, do you believe they are guilty of desiring cultural apartheid?

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Mr Donnelly,
    Its all about TRADITION.
    The Orange Order have a tradional right to walk the Queens Highway.
    Everyone else has no traditional rights….except to get batoned out of the way to facilitate OO rights.

    Having established their right on Garvaghy Road for 200 years or whatever….the residents have established their rights for about 11 years. So in 189 years we can have a chat about it.
    Wootton Bassett will I expect be a reference point…..ironically the OO will have more in common with those trying to prevent Islam4uk.
    Brilliant to see Nelson McCausland invoke Seth Effrikka another Orange Free State…….SF should have siezed the opportunity provided by the cunning old linguist to arrange a message of congratulation on 20th anniv of the release of Nelson Mandela…….or at least asked McCausland if he is related to Mandela or perhaps named for him as a kind of gesture of solidarity for ANC by Nelson McCauslands father.

  • One of the principles of the Civil Rights movement was the right to march I believe. Republicans/nationalists appear to have moved on since then, but not forwards.

  • al

    Oh god no, here we go…

  • bananaman

    Drunken mobs of Billy Wright flag waving bigots,right wing idiots in bowler hats singing sectarian songs were drove through here before which lead in the deaths of nationalists from Portadown, major rioting and a huge increase in tension.
    The forced marches attracted international condemnation.
    None of this matters to McCauseland (a man described as a fundamentalist by the Daily Telegraph) , he wants his Trimble moment, his little war celebration in the faces of the Irish people and he wants to revel in it.
    Absoloutly disgusting, and ironic he talks of peoples rights when he is so extremely disrespectful to the Irish people.
    Nutters the lot ’em.

  • Ulick

    Imagine if I wanted to organise a republican parade from Ardoyne, passing via Twaddel Avenue/ West Circular Road to the Springfield Road.

    Someone should organise that march, just for the craic like…

  • Ulick

    One of the principles of the Civil Rights movement was the right to march I believe.

    That would be news to rest of us. The five demands were:

    — one man, one vote
    — an end to gerrymandering
    — an end to discrimination in housing
    — an end to discrimination in jobs
    — the disbandment of the B-Specials

  • Panic, these ones like it up em.

    Could Nelson McCausland not get Islam4UK on a few Orange Order marches in the spirit of adding a multi-cultural flavour to the rather homogeneous proceedings.

  • Dec

    Mr McCausland said residents “were trying to claim ownership of particular roads and say ‘you cannot go there without our consent'”.

    “There is not other way to describe that but cultural apartheid,” he said.

    Just to put Nelson’s carefully thought out utterances into context, it should be noted that this is the same Nelson mcCausland who, in November 1984, led a campaign against St Malachy’s Grammar School, which wanted to reopen playing pitches in a largely Protestant area of North Belfast.

  • martin r

    There would be much less problem within the protestant community about parading generally if Gerry Adams hadn’t insisted in bragging about it being a “created” situation rather than something that just happened, and the perception is therefore that it’s less about local residents and more about republicanism getting another victory.

    Increasingly we are seeing that people have taken on-board the idea that for anything to be acceptable, no one must be seen to have victory. Well as far as parades are concerned there is little doubt that the prods have got a right battering so I think that there is unfinished business there to some degree.

  • What a sad bunch you are. Here we have terrible allegations of child abuse and rape and there is little doubt that in due course we will find the same charges alleged against the other side. And all so many of us care about is a march once a year.

    Make a note bigots: Wootton Bassett is not and has never been a parade. It is some members of the public paying their respects to a fallen soldier on his way home. I would love to see the reaction on republican or anyone elses face if they were denied the right to show respect for their soldiers.

    For Gods Sake GROW UP!

    The whole lot of you make me so angry.

  • Alias

    Article 11 of the ECHR (freedom of assembly and association) is a qualified right:

    [i]1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

    2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State.[/i]

    No restrictions are placed on the Orange Order’s right to peaceful assembly other than are required for “public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.” The Orange Order seem to have mistaken a qualified right for an absolute right.

    However, what right under the ECHR do citizens have to prevent peaceful assembly by other citizens? None that I can see. Communities do not have any ‘sovereign’ rights to the territory wherein they reside (unless it is private property), so they have no right to establish borders for the purpose of ad hoc immigration control.

    It is not a rights-management issue but an issue ralated to competing national groups who are forced to share one state. That’s local politics and has nothing to do with human rights courts.

  • David Crookes

    Let’s have a bit of genuine democracy. Most of us don’t want any trouble. Those politicians who help to cause trouble on the streets in 2010 will be regarded with loathing and contempt.

    There is and can be no such thing as a Bible-believing causer of trouble, or a Bible-believing thrower of petrol-bombs.

    Some sheep are funny. For three weeks you work day and night to stop them throwing themselves over a precipice. Eventually they undertake to behave. You sigh with relief. Then they run off and throw themselves over the precipice. ‘We didn’t give up our principles,’ they bleat as they fly through the air. ‘You can’t fool us with your fancy talk. We know what’s what.’

  • JohnM

    Hilarious. What a bigoted mindless fool. Any comparisons to Apartheid South Africa will never come down on the side of Nelson and his beloved Orange Order.

  • socaire

    pippakin, divorce yourself from dragging your obvious dislike of child abusers/perverts into EVERY posting. The Wooton Bassett thing refers to the proposed parade by the Islam4Uk to march through that very same town – not to the feting of the returned gunmen even if they are some mother’s son.

  • Panic, these ones like it up em.

    pipakin post (10)

    References to Wooton Basset are that Islam4Uk wanted to organise a march throuh the town.

    The goverment moved quickly to ban this march from marching where it was/is not wanted.

    I believe they prescribed one of the groups wanting to march as well.

  • JohnM

    pippakin – I don’t think anyone is talking about the returning coffins at Wootton Bassett, but rather the Islamic group that wanted to hold a protest march there.

    Rightly it was banned for being provocative and hate inducing. Quite similar in those regards to OO marches through nationalist residential areas.

  • Ulick. You are correct of course. But wasn’t the banning of NICRA’s marches an affront to freedom of assembly, a fundamental right, and a part of the wider cause of securing rights at that time?

  • Reader

    Chris Donnelly: Secondly, does the Orange Order- and, come to think of it, DUP- support the campaign by Islam4UK to march through Wootton Bassett?
    Almost certainly not, though it will help their case that Islam4UK is a proscribed organisation. Are you (or SF) seeking to have the Orange Order proscribed, likewise?
    Chris Donnelly: Imagine if I wanted to organise a republican parade from Ardoyne…
    Start with the Hibernians, an exclusively Catholic organisation, and a far better analogy, as they also have traditional routes.
    Chris Donnelly: This must call from some variation on Godwin’s law to be established with reference to apartheid.
    Great – are republicans going to set an example of restraint in this respect?

  • iluvni

    Why not just do a show every year on BBC1 before the ‘marching season’ commences…half an hour where all the contentious parades are settled one way or another with a heads or tails.
    Imagine the ratings….

  • Socaire! Panic & JohnM

    Islam 4UK have appeared in several guises, each time one group is banned the same people pop up with a different name.

    If I remember correctly their proposed march was opposed by thousands in internet campaigns, they decided not to march – before any official ban – although there is no doubt it would have been banned.

    Importantly the Islam for UK proposal was not about a long established parade in an area they had always paraded through. This was a deliberate and blatant attempt to gain publicity for their cause. In effect they were successful beyond their wildest expectations. For them it was Job Done.

  • Socaire!

    I just read you line properly. You go too far laddie! Show a bit of respect for real soldiers! Who stood out in a fucking desert in full uniform!

    And another thing. If we all spent our time getting rid of child abusers and perverts instead of worrying about some silly parade by ‘toy soldiers’, not to mention your obsession with every dot and comma! this country would be a much healthier place for our children and young people. I said grow up and I meant it.

  • lamhdearg

    lets compare like for like here no one is suggesting the oo should be able to walk where they like,for example if they wanted to walk from suffolk to the shankill via stewartstown road(sorry to those people who dont know belfast)no one and i repeat no one would support this,this however can not be compared to the five minutes it takes the people from ballysillan/oo/bands to pass the ardoyne shops,those people who do know belfast please tell me an alternative route for them to take, please dont say they should take the bus, every time a republican parade makes its way from north belfast to the city centre it passes the bottom of the shankill(browns square)without causing a huge hue and cry,as i say lets have a little like for like.

  • slug

    I visited Dunloy once. The OO hall and Presbyterian Church are a little apart. Each looks very battered. And they are not allowed to parade from one to the other. A strange world!

  • wild turkey

    Why not just do a show every year on BBC1 before the ‘marching season’ commences…half an hour where all the contentious parades are settled one way or another with a heads or tails.’

    iluvni

    how about something along the lines ofEndurance: The orange sauce and green mustard competition?
    see below

  • Secret Squirrel

    Please, nobody mention that the british army allow c*nvicted m*rderers to serve in its ranks, or pipakin might get very cross. :O(

    They’re real soldiers and they stand in fucking deserts and stuff.

  • Slartibuckfast

    [b]PAPE MARCHING PLANS ‘RIGHT UP OUR STREET’[/b]

    [i]By Orange Culture Correspondent [b]Pope Burns[/b][/i]

    Unionists are beside themselves with joy after Catholic extremists revealed that they plan to hold a series of anti-Protestant marches in loyal towns all over Ulster this summer which will culminate in a massive parade up the Shankill Road during which thousands of members of a kick-the-Queen band will saunter past the scene of the Frizzell’s fish shop bombing shouting ‘9 – 1 you black bastards’ whilst waving 9 fingers in the air.

    “I very much welcome the parade plans,” said DUP MLA Nelson McCausland, “and even though the organisers of these marches have called anyone with any concerns about the summer parades ‘terrorist scum from the Queen’s cunt,’ I still feel we should stand on the side of the road and hand out tea and biccies to these delightful people as they spit on our faces and piss in our gardens. In fact I also think we should lie down on the ground and let them walk on top of us in case the road wears out the soles of their shoes. And we should probably suck their Catholic penises dry too while we’re at it.” To which the Reverend Wi(…cut…).

  • Secret Squirrel

    I hadnt gone away you know…

    The British Army is like any other army and takes what it can get.

    You wont find me at Wootton Bassett, you wont even find me watching it on the news. It is not important to me, what is important is my firm belief that every country has the right to show its respect for its military, that means them too.

    As for getting cross, at least you didnt complain about my English!

    You know I think its really a bit unIrish to be so anti an army so many of us fought and died in. I am proud of Ireland, all of it.

  • John O’Connell

    As this desire to march down Garvaghy Road is about domination, it should not be allowed. The removal of the parades commission is bad for Nationalists and will result in local dispute settlements that will in effect be cases of “isolate and abuse” rather than society standing together to prevent this happening.

    A sure sign that a march will go down the Garvaghy Road this year is in Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness both stipulating that it cannot do so, while Brendan McKenna is telling us that it will only go down after negotiations with the residents. Clearly Gerry and Martin are getting onside before the capitulation by Brendan. Were Eirigi given something at Hillsborough?

  • socaire

    pippakin,I know you are a little bit ‘other worldy’ and that, in itself, is not a bad thing. But what do you think those cornerboys go to Iraq/Afghanistan for? They go to take potshots at wooly heads and wogs, to destroy their infrastructure and to generally abuse people – as they did here. I agree most armies are no better but this is no reason to hero worship them (dead or alive) even – even they stand in BIG deserts with UNIFORMS on. Grow up!

  • socaire!

    It is no reason for us to hate the people who grieve for them either. As for Woolly heads, that sounds a bit racist to me. Im guessing you mean the same ‘woolly heads’ who are responsible for 9/11, 7/7 and who, given half a chance, would force all women to wear a burkha?

    You better watch out you almost sounded like a nice, intelligent guy, right up to the last seven words!

    Wootton Bassett is strictly non political and largely unofficial, I think we should leave them be. It is their loss not ours.

  • lamhdearg

    In the build up to the proprosed wootton bassett 4uk protest a spokesperson for the residents of the town suggested on radio 2s j vine show that if it went ahead they (the residents) would simply close there windows and doors, let it pass of peacefully, and not give 4uk the publicity they desired,we here in ulster could do with a little bit of the small towns dignity.

  • socaire

    I thought that the whole thread of this argument was that hateful supporters of (Islamic) terrorism would not be allowed to march through the town that welcomes? the dead home. Were we not trying to draw comparisons with our wee country where the sorry remnants of the adventurers still want to walk where they are detested and any person who objects is trying to foist a system of cultural apartheid on our otherwise decent and tolerant society. I accuse you of being tangential and of deliberate obfuscation for your own shadowy agenda.

  • Were there not a group of people called Picts who lived in a country called Scotland. Does not history show the Picts were wiped out by invading Celts?

    When it comes to these islands history is no place to go fishing.

    Wootton Bassett is not a parade, its a funeral procession, note the subtle difference.

  • Panic, these ones like it up em.

    Posted by iluvni

    ” 19.Why not just do a show every year on BBC1 before the ‘marching season’ commences…half an hour where all the contentious parades are settled one way or another with a heads or tails.
    Imagine the ratings…. ”

    I am going to try to improve on your excellent idea.

    Lets get Simon Cowell involved and have a TV show dedicated to contentious Orange Order Parades.

    Phone polls, Celebrity Judges, Lets go the whole 9 yards. Louis Walsh, Danni Minogue, Cheryl Cole don’t let this glorious opportunity pass you by.

  • socaire

    pippakitten, Wootton Bassett is not a parade, it is a town. The residents, perhaps, justifiably do not want a march through their town by people protesting about the slaughter of their fellow Muslims. The issue is, then, if it is right that offensive parades in a town in England can be ‘discouraged’ by residents then why does this principle not apply to this sectarian sink hole?

  • Secret Squirrel

    Pippakin:Were there not a group of people called Picts who lived in a country called Scotland. Does not history show the Picts were wiped out by invading Celts?

    Some woodentop might drift along shortly and start waffling on about Jethro Troll or something….
    Maybe.

    Anyhow, it’s nice that we all agree that these trouble makers shouldn’t march where they’re not wanted. :o)

  • socaire!

    Wootton Bassett is the first town the hearse passes through on its way to the soldiers home. Some British people gather there because they respect their army, regardless of what they think of the war. No politicians, no officials, just people watching a hearse go by.

    My instinct is if we ban one parade we should ban, and I for one would be very happy about it, the whole damn lot of em!

    Secret Squirrel

    As long as the ban does not apply to any fallen Irish soldier and the people who want to show their respect for him. I agree

    Mind you if allowing a parade meant we would be closer to a united Ireland, you just hand me that drum!

  • socaire

    Yip! Ban them all.

  • sdelaneys

    Are there many other places in the world where people are so mad keen for marching and marching where others are equally keen not to have those particular marches there?

  • Does not history show the Picts were wiped out by invading Celts?

    In a word, no it doesn’t.

  • sdelaneys

    No.

  • Andrew Gallagher

    We evidently read different history books.

    Funny how history for many is what they want to see.

  • RepublicanStones

    Pippakin, Islam4Uk march was not a funeral procession.

    This boils down to one thing –

    Is it more important for the OO to march a route they have walked down for 20 or 30 odd years, or is it more important for them to march along a route where their supporters live and where people who espouse their ideals can view and celebrate this culture.

  • Alias

    “You know I think its really a bit unIrish to be so anti an army so many of us fought and died in. I am proud of Ireland, all of it.” – pippakin

    On the contrary. It is “unIrish” to support the army that enforces the British state’s denial of the Irish nation’s claim to national self-determination. The idea that it is legitimate for the Irish nation to serve a foreign state that occupies its country is an idea that originates with said foreign state. The conquerors always preach peace to the conquered.

    “The issue is, then, if it is right that offensive parades in a town in England can be ‘discouraged’ by residents then why does this principle not apply to this sectarian sink hole?” – socaire

    It does. If the residents stir up enough shit, then the parade can be banned on public order grounds. Also, Islam4UK is a prescribed organisation, whereas the OO is not. Why are the DUP expressing support for a prescribed organisation that is banned under the terrorism act? Well, some of their senior members weren’t too shy about that is the past…

  • iluvni

    If BBC NI can commission shite like that Colin Murphy show, my idea has got to be a runner. Its not quite as shite.

  • Alias

    Irish and British history is interconnected to deny it is to deny the truth. In the second world war many Irish people were fighting Nazis.

    Ireland has had great cause for anger but we cannot live in the past it is a very unhealthy place. It is time we moved on and to do that we must embrace the truth, all of it, not just the bits that suit us. It should be a source of great pride that there were Irish people fighting in two world wars. It should be and when it is we will have recovered from all the hurt.

  • Alias

    I’m well aware of the history. However, you seem to think that history gives the UK some claim to ownership of Irish destinies or that it renders illegitimate a right to national self-determination, a nation-state, and renders legitimate the very British notion that the Irish nation should be loyal to a British state and serve as cannon fodder for its wars.

  • Alias

    Are you dreaming? when have I ever suggested such a thing?

    I am saying the British have the right to mourn a dead soldier. In a small town in England if that is what they wish.

    I am saying Islam 4UK tried to hijack a funeral procession to gain a bit of cheap publicity and whats more they succeeded!

    In addition, and just for you, I will say it is time for us to let go of the past. The OOs in the north are, like it or not, Irish.

  • pippakin,

    The number of instances in history where any population was “wiped out” by an invading force are few compared to the number of cases where one ruling class replaced another. In the case of Scotland, the Picts’ language died out shortly after being conquered by the Scots, but the population didn’t go anywhere. Most modern historians also believe that the Picts were themselves a Celtic culture.

  • Andrew Gallagher

    I forgot to mention, and oddly enough so did you, that the invading ‘Scots’ were said to have come from Ireland.

    The language was not the only thing said to have died out.

    The Picts may very well have been a ‘Celtic culture’. what difference does that make.

    As I said, in these islands history is no place to go fishing.

  • wee buns

    When the usual ferryloads of drunken loyalists arrive here from Glasgow etc for this year’s hooliganism, sorry, marching season, we could send them (the whole shebang, cops, OO, military) down to the road where you live, Pip, if you like, see what it’s REALLY like. Get the kettle on.

    ‘Parades Factor’ would be the best TV ever. Imagine the weekly pressure to improve on the ‘acts’. Conjours images of Orangemen tooting on saxaphones, maybe various Orders with hula-hoops or juggling balls.

  • elizabeth

    A good opportunity to thrash out the parades issues,
    bill of rights and just exactly were our politicians stand on these issues. I notice Davis Cameron is being challanged over his visit to apartheid S Africa. Will Nelson Mc Causland be challanged over his “support” for apartheid? Is it still a secret that when Mandela opened up and offered as a host his country for talks between Unionists and Nationalists many years ago(1998?)Unionists refused to travel in the same plane as Nationalist, Unionists wanted seperate buses, seperate hotels and conferences facilities. Nelson Mandela asked the unionist delagation “do you wish to bring back apartheid”?
    That answer may be telling.Lily Campbell

  • cynic47

    During the talking that went on at Hillsborough the DUP spokesmen and women playing out little teasing games. “No comment you will just have to wait and see” “You will be told everything when all has been agreed” These comments were followed by patronising smiles(From those that do actually smile) and nods and winks. Contrast that to the outburst from Nelson McCausland. He is serving on the neat committee to resolve the marching issue in just two weeks time and they are meeting every day. A mini Hillsborough?? Surely the discussions on this issue would be best done at the committee rather than in the street in front of a camera.

  • wee buns

    I am not suggesting parades should not be policed. The unionists do not have a monopoly on loutish behaviour, they dont even have a monopoly on Scottish football teams, let alone those football supporters who think any excuse for a drunken rampage is a good excuse.

    I have already said that I would prefer to see every parade banned. The whole lot no exceptions. We are not likely to see that so we must come to some agreement, thats all. If I could I would ban everything I dislike, what a tyrant I would be!

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Alias on Feb 11, 2010 @ 06:56 PM

    (referring to Art 11 ECHR)
    >>However, what right under the ECHR do citizens have to prevent peaceful assembly by other citizens? None that I can see.<

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Pipp Feb 11, 2010 @ 10:37 PM

    >>Were there not a group of people called Picts who lived in a country called Scotland. Does not history show the Picts were wiped out by invading Celts?< >Andrew Gallagher

    We evidently read different history books.

    Funny how history for many is what they want to see.< >In the case of Scotland, the Picts’ language died out shortly after being conquered by the Scots, but the population didn’t go anywhere. Most modern historians also believe that the Picts were themselves a Celtic culture.<

  • Andrew Gallagher

    So your argument is the Picts leaders became culturally Gaelic. The Pictish people followed, just like in kingdoms all over Europe.

    Those are big statements! and totally ignore all the wars and battles those little kingdoms went through before they were assimilated into the dominant culture.

    As for the books I will look up the relevant titles and let you know. Or you could try doing that for yourself. Oh, and I will not be looking them up today. I have a life!

    Prionsa Eoghann

    This happy dynastic marriage of elites you refer to as between complimentary peoples. Really? and the only survivors of this marriage were Celts.

  • wee buns

    People die in parade related violence. It was pushed through Garvaghy in ’96 & ’97 under threat of catholics being killed if disallowed. They were killed anyway.
    This tradition goes back to 1795, the first ‘Drumcree’, when after an anti-papal speech, two taigs were killed in a bog.

    Pip, what I suggest is that life on Planet Pip might differ somewhat from life elsewhere. This is not about having the luxury to like or ‘dislike’ parades.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Piip

    The arguments you are attributing to Andrew Gallagher are in fact mine. Anyway;

    >>Those are big statements! and totally ignore all the wars and battles those little kingdoms went through before they were assimilated into the dominant culture.< >This happy dynastic marriage of elites you refer to as between complimentary peoples. Really? and the only survivors of this marriage were Celts.< >As for the books I will look up the relevant titles and let you know. Or you could try doing that for yourself. Oh, and I will not be looking them up today. I have a life!<<*chuckles*Ok pal whenever you are ready.

  • wee buns

    At least planet pip is firmly in 2010 and not stuck in 1795!

    I want a united Ireland. Some are prepared to die or kill for it. And then there is me, here on planet pip, saying can we not just give each other a break?

    I say a united Ireland would have to tolerate the damn marches anyway, so we might as well get used to it now.

    Thats all for now from planet pip I have to deal with

    Prionsa Eoghann

    I really am a bit busy today (trying to get a divination pendant to work), but I will give you a hint where to look and when I have time I will browse for you.

    Most of the historical reading I have done over the last several years has been about Celtic history and Witchcraft, cant remember the author at the moment, but I know I have several books by Raymond Buckland, you could check there because I remember he wrote a book called Scottish Witchcraft. It may not be the right book but it is the right direction. Oh, and before you mock, we were Celts, had a faith and a history long before we were Catholic.

    Good luck! who knows you may find your faith in the Goddess!

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    pipp

    Don’t trouble yoursel. We can just put your claims down to you being away wi the fairies ;¬)

    >>..Oh, and before you mock…< >we were Celts, had a faith and a history long before we were Catholic.<

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    You are doing it again!

    I understand we began, as it were, in what is now India. Indeed there are still in far flung regions red headed Indians and a tribe in Afghanistan, until recently anyway, with the blue eyes and black hair so familiar to the Celts.

    You can check in Wikipedia if it makes you feel more comfortable. It has quite a long list of references. Im smiling about the fairies, at least Im not a banshee!

    Im currently on a course, nothing to do with the ‘old ways’ and today during our break the subject turned to Tarot and Runes. Do you know every woman there had a pack of Tarot cards and several had sets of Runes. The men, whilst denying any interest of course, wanted to borrow the cards, just for a quick check. This is Ireland a place of magic and myth.

    You should know a wise man would be very careful before he mocks the fairies If I thought it would work I would threaten both sides with serious boils for daring to argue about their bloody parades.

  • prionisa Eoghann

    Just had a quick look and its on the bbc web as well, look under the section re Kenneth McAlpine.

    It could be argued the Picts were absorbed into the Gaelic but that assumes a willingness to lose their entire identity.

  • Rory Carr

    If ever there was an argument for bringing back the ducking stool…..

  • Seanchai Ard Eoin

    Some would have us believe the Orange Order are only walking to christian church services to consult some invisible guy about deliverance. I believe parades in interface areas are about reinforcing supremacy under the cloak of shared space. They are not about any notion of promoting Orange Fest that most people could be comfortable with. These particular parades are about reinforcing containment by ensuring the boundaries demarcating areas like Ardoyne are reinforced and the cultural divide between the communities is even greater. This is the opposite of promoting a shared future and to suggest the organisers of such parades are victims of cultural apartheid is ludicrous.

  • Rory Carr

    The ducking stool, closely followed by burning at the stake no doubt.

    Seanchai Ard Eoin

    Perhaps its fear, have you thought of that? Fear that the culture they love, different, but closely connected to our own, will be lost.

    You see above a silly argument about the Picts. If we agree on nothing else we should be able to agree that there is nothing real left to show of the Picts, most of their history has to be guessed at, educated guesses no doubt, but still guesses, open to interpretation and mistake.

    The OOs and unionists cherish the difference between their ways and ours. Is that such a bad thing. We may have lost a lot of battles, but we will in the end win the war. We can be generous.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    pip

    >>You are doing it again!< >You can check in Wikipedia if it makes you feel more comfortable.<

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Too busy pishin myself that I missed this;

    >>It could be argued the Picts were absorbed into the Gaelic but that assumes a willingness to lose their entire identity.<

  • wee buns

    Pip. Trouble with ‘saying can we not just give each other a break?’ is that the answer from the intrangsigent element is ‘no’. The point of refering to 1795 is merely to contextualize this. Same intrangsigence, more recent; point also made by Elizabeth at 2 of this page.
    The OO parade at Rossnowlagh is tolerated because it’s attendants are reasonably behaved (not the case elsewhere) & the area is relatively unpopulated, although the atmposphere is far from what could be described as one of joyous celebration, at least no-one dies or is under seige.

    Much like the catholic church’s complete failure to take responsibility for the crimes of it’s priests, the OO seems equally ambivalent towards the crimes of hooligan individuals. Which is why I suggested in an earlier thread, that the LODGE to which the rogue element belongs should be suspended from marching, hopefully creating an ethos of accountability where there has been none.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    I also suggested the bbc. Not that the beeb or wicci were my original source, but because they are easy on the web and I have no time to search through all my books on history. Both of these refer to Gaelic triumphs but neither offer definite proof.

    The difference between ‘wiped out and absorbed’ is another poser. A language, a culture lost because they were no longer wanted. My that does not compare well to Ireland or anywhere else does it.

    What in the world does Victoria Beckham have to do with this?

    History does tend to repeat itself, I suspect this is because we never learn.

    wee buns

    Why would you think I have a higher opinion of the OO than I do of the Catholic church. Forget north and south, think stubborn, intransigent, dictatorial, and you could be thinking of either or both of them.

  • Brian MacAodh

    “They go to take potshots at wooly heads and wogs, to destroy their infrastructure and to generally abuse people – as they did here.”

    Get a clue.

  • Reader

    wee buns: Which is why I suggested in an earlier thread, that the LODGE to which the rogue element belongs should be suspended from marching, hopefully creating an ethos of accountability where there has been none.
    The parades commission can specify that some specific bands, and maybe lodges, may not take part in a parade that is otherwise allowed. And I also think that the OO should do a far better job of penalising bands and lodges.
    But, except at the most politicised events, the worst behaviour is from neither bands, nor lodges, but from ‘followers’, who are only loosely associated with either of the other groups. Guilt by association is maybe a step too far?

  • paddyjoe

    Pippakin
    “I would love to see the reaction on republican or anyone elses face if they were denied the right to show respect for their soldiers”

    Republicans were denied the right to show respect for their soldiers when republican mourners were batoned by the RUC at republican funerals RUC fired plastic bullets into mourners, rammed mourners with jeeps, a loyalist thug attacked republican mourners with bomb and bullet killing 3 mourners at a republican funeral. Now would you still like to see the reaction on the republican face ?

  • paddyjoe

    British soldiers were not allowed to wear their uniforms in public in their home towns, or tell anyone they were in the armed forces, in case someone was a terrorist.

    It was bitter and violent and it is over.

    We commemorate our losses and so do they, thats how it must be. Everyone has the right to grieve.

  • lamhdearg

    paddyjoe
    we have seen the reaction of repulicans when they where denied the right to show respect for there dead,if you remember lawernce marley and the reponse of the ira it was to bomb a funeral of a policeman.

  • paddyjoe

    Lamhdearg
    we have seen the reaction of repulicans when they where denied the right to show respect for there dead,if you remember lawernce marley and the reponse of the ira it was to bomb a funeral of a policeman.

    Come on they did not bomb the funeral of a policeman, after dozens of attacks by the RUC on republican funerals the IRA planted a HOAX bomb at the gates of a graveyard where a policeman was to be buried. As if to say if you do not stop attacking our funerals we can attack yours,your post makes it sound like they exploded a bomb in the middle of the funeral

  • RepublicanStones

    The RUC always policed funerals admirably…

  • Danny

    “Its all about TRADITION.
    The Orange Order have a tradional right to walk the Queens Highway.”

    Last time I checked, the so-called “Queen(‘)s Highway” is for motor vehicles. However, if you want to exercise your “tradional” right to walk on the pavement, then feel free to do so.

  • Nelson McCausland’s accusation that the minority community in Portadown is pursuing a policy of ‘cultural apartheid’ is a gross and insulting distortion of the facts. The International Criminal Court defined apartheid as being inhumane acts ‘committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime’. Neither the nationalist/catholic community in Portadown or the Garvaghy Road Residents Coalition are interested in oppressing Orange culture or dominating Protestants. What they are about is putting an end to the cultural, socioeconomic, and political discrimination and violence that has been revived with symbolic displays of Orange supremacy for a couple of hundred years.
    The actual origins of that tradition of sectarian apartheid can be traced at least as far back as June of 1795 when a Rev. George Maunsell called on his congregation ‘to celebrate the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne in the true spirit of the institution’ by attending a sermon to be given by a Rev. Devine of the Established Church at Drumcree on Sunday the 1st of July. That 1st of July Sunday service gave birth to the 200-year-old tradition of ‘First Sunday’ ‘Church Parades’ to and from Drumcree Church. On page seventeen of a ‘History of Ireland’ (Vol. I), published in 1809, Francis Plowden described the Rev Devine’s sermon as having:
    so worked up the minds of his audience, that upon retiring from service, on the different roads leading to their respective homes, they gave full scope to the antipapistical zeal, with which he had inspired them, falling upon every Catholic they met, beating and bruising them without provocation or distinction, breaking the doors and windows of their houses, and actually murdering two unoffending Catholics in a bog. This unprovoked atrocity of the Protestants revived and redoubled religious rancour. The flame spread and threatened a contest of extermination…

    Two hundred years later, in July 1995, we had the ‘first’, ‘Frst Sunday’, ‘Drumcree Siege’ and the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland published ‘The Order on Parade’. In that ‘educational’ booklet the Grand Lodge held that ‘If people were better informed as to the nature of the Orange Institution they would be in a much better position to understand the purpose of parades’. The booklet went on to explain Orange culture and defended all and every Orange Parade as being part of a colourful tradition that fulfilled a common need to celebrate political and religious commitments and beliefs. They described Orange parading as being ‘a celebration’, ‘a display of pageantry’, ‘a demonstration of strength’ that provides ‘a sense of tradition’, ‘a testimony and a statement of beliefs’, and ‘the culmination of each lodge’s activities’.

    Now we have a Minister for Culture who is determined to revive ‘religious rancour’ and risk a return to the ‘contest of extermination’ by supporting the culture of physical, territorial, political, socioeconomic, religious and symbolic domination that has issued from the doors of Drumcree church ever since that murderous ‘Frst Sunday’ of 1795. Perhaps if ‘our’ Minister for Culture were better informed as to the history of those paramilitary demonstrations of strength he would be in a better position understand what motivates opposition to such expressions of Orange culture. To that end, and with the editor’s permission, may I direct him and the Grand Lodge historians to the research papers that I have posted on the internet at http://orangecitadel.blogspot.com.

  • Alan N/Ards

    Chris
    i seem to remember a republican funeral walking this route in the early 70s. The coffin was draped with a tricolor, which was snatched by a young loyalist on the West Circular Rd. If my memory serves me well there was a republican honour party marching alongside the hearse. The police pushed the funeral through the area but I don’t recall any violence.