McGuinness calls on British and Irish governments to intervene

The crisis in the Northern Ireland political process has worsened. Deputy First Minister Martin Mc Guinness has confirmed that he is meeting Gordon Brown to try and rescue the deteriorating situation. A financial package of over a billion pounds was agree for the transfer of policing and justice powers arising from a series of meetings between Mr Brown, Martin McGuinness and Peter Robinson.Mr Robinson continues to argue his community has to have sufficient confidence in the return of security powers. Sinn Fein is demanding to know when these powers will be transferred. Newry Armagh MP Conor Murphy has said ahead of the Mc Guinnness Brown talks in Downing Street:

“Agreements reached in political negotiations need to be honoured. The talks will focus on these issues of partnership and equality in government and failure thus far to agree a date for transfer of policing and justice powers and more importantly we need to hear from both the British and Irish governments how they intend to deal with this.”

  • shane

    “Agreements reached in political negotiations need to be honoured [..] failure thus far to agree a date for transfer of policing and justice powers”

    Whatever happened to the Irish Language Act?

  • the future’s bright, the future’s orange

    run to mammy and daddy… here we go again…

  • Pirate

    Who’s putting manners on who, now?

  • joeCanuck

    I think many, if not most, of us want(ed) it to work.
    Perhaps we never asked ourselves “What if it doesn’t?”
    I think we are getting perilously close to the point where we say, “Nice try, now what do we do?”
    Perhaps, as the previous thread suggested, we will need new elections, followed by new negotiations to get us out of this fine mess.
    There will undoubted be a different mix given the TUV’s success in taking away some of the DUP oldtime support.
    So be it. We will get what we deserve in the end.
    *Shudders*.

  • paddy

    you wud think this murphy would keep his mouth shut about pj after putting his foot in it when his best mate was scooped last week for theiving

  • joeCanuck

    Thank you m’lud paddy for your quick disposition of that case.

  • Pirate

    If the British say Hughes is guilty, then he must be. Eh, paddy? Or maybe you read it in the Irish Star?

  • aquifer

    Constitutional negotiations no thanks. Lets just have election after election until they catch themselves on or their bankers get sick of it.

  • paddy

    pirate are u forgetting hughes getting found guilty of theiving before n dont start about murphys criminal record and him lecturing decent honest people about pj

  • Pirate

    Do tell us, paddy, about Conor Murphy’s criminal record and to which ‘decent honest people’ you refer.

  • aquifer

    I’m looking forward to having David Ford at Policing and Justice. The prospect of being condemned in his sanctimonious tones could have all sorts going straight. Offending would be seriously unfun.

  • joeCanuck

    to which ‘decent honest people’ you refer.

    That smacks of a failed election campaign, hehehe.

  • Pigeon Toes

    Ah so what’s new?

    Headlines by Christmas
    “Crisis averted, £xxxx promised…”

  • joeCanuck

    Aquifier,
    Do you mean 1,000,000,001 pounds?
    It ain’t gonna get any better. If they don’t grab the money now, they might get a good bit less after the next general budget.

    Submit word is “higher”. Yeah, right!

  • igor

    Within the last 24 hours:-

    1 a riot broke out after Bob The Builder switched on Belfast’s Christmas Tree lights at City Hall. I can only presume that either they were fighting over whether he was a Prod builder or a Catholic or there were too many green /orange bulbs this year

    2 the editor of a major Irish Paper was beaten up, allegedly by drug dealers, at the Continental Market right in front of Belfast City Hall in broad daylight

    Now given the money alreday poured into policing and the Policing Board’s actovities over 7 years, the countless DPPs, meetings, community initiatives, etc, etc, etc, can anyone tell me one thing, just one thing that devolution of P&J will do to improve this situation?

    All I forsee is more griping and grinding and Davy Ford doing his Deputy Dawg ‘something must be done’ routine.

  • igor

    ” we need to hear from both the British and Irish governments ”

    Mammmmmmmmy ……he tuk my ball so he did

  • Realist

    SF need to give their full support to Army Special Forces, in their operational support for the police, and make it clear the SRR should be given full clearance to operate both sides of the border. After that the DUP should give consideration to devolving P&J sometime in the future. but only after SF unconditional support for the British army here.
    They have been quiet on this issue this past 24 hours,simple, with us or against us.

  • picador

    Realist?

    That’s a funny name. Ha ha!

  • jdaly

    In the context of Sinn Féin crying to Gordon Brown for help it is interestinmg that an ex hunger striker has a letter in the local Crossmaglen paper, The Examiner, this week complaining about the case of Sean Hughes and pledging that ‘the people of Sth Armagh will never accept Britsih rule,’, he must have forgot to tell Connor and Marty.

  • jdaly

    I should have said that the ex hunger striker is a Sinn Féiner which is what makes his letter curious, to say the least. Stormont seems to have passed him by.

  • canteataflag

    It doesn’t matter that Conor and Marty are now Crown Servants. Or that Gerry is happy with Betty and takes the shilling. If they are able to square the circle, so should we all.

    Lidl and Tesco are more important than idolising long dead buck eejits.

    We’re all europeans now anyway.

  • shanmaghery

    Realist,

    Somebody would need to support them Army special
    forces alright,them are the boys that shot Menzies
    on the train in London,and I doubt Garrison wasnt a big success either as they had to let three of the arrested men go and according to UTV news tonight they havent recovered any firearms.They are blaming the flood for washing it away. Maybe
    Jeffrey or Willie Frazier was involved in training them.This is what you are building your hope on, the future doesnt look too bright.

  • aquifer

    Two armed separatist gun cultists arrested. One had tried politics. 126 votes 0.2%. We really should have listened to him then?

    These narcissistic hoodlums are a waste of space, traitors to the irish people.

  • skullion

    Realist

    Perhaps you don’t know this son but that bit of land below the border doesn’t belong to Britain so you just cant go demanding that British troops have a free run of the place.

  • ciaran

    Sinn fein should just hold up their hands and admit that the dup have won. I mean who really cares about the peace process?The dup obviously don’t. Let them try and bring the dissidents to the table now. I can easily understand that some people have a problem with sinn fein but they are in danger of destroying the peace process because they think their feelings take priorty over saving lives. Well they are in danger of getting their way. If the dup keep trying to screw sinn fein then the dissidents are going to get a lot more support and as a nationlist and a parent I for one don’t want to see that. Muppets!

  • Mayoman

    Well done Igor and the future’s…., proving yet again unionism’s ability for intellectual debate.

    While anoraks can debate the finer points of any agreements and what was said or written down and by who, the rest of the world just sees the old face of intransigent unionism acting in its typical ‘bigoted’ way. As Igor and the future’s… so aptly demonstrate, the politics of unionism is built with same level of intellectual rigour as the raison d’etre of Milwall FC “Everybody hates us and we don’t care.” That may be fine for the short-term schooolyard giggle, but the last laugh is usually with the grown ups (think Irish, British, US govts).

  • “the last laugh is usually with at the grown ups (think Irish, British, US govts”

    Think Bush, Blair, Ahern – never mind the more recent muppets 😉

  • Mayoman

    Yeah Nevin, you’re right. Its amazing Robinson can look that incompetent even when cast in the shadow of that lot!

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    igor, futurey orange,

    The more apt (and grown-up) comparison is with that of a large organisation where one senior manager is concerned that another is not pulling his weight and he therefore decides to inform the board of directors that action is required as the organisation’s future is in serious peril.

  • Trev

    Sinn Fein just don’t do politics. I mean sure they bluster, whinge, weep and cry victim but they just don’t get it that democracy takes work.

    I suppose that it is a big leap from solving arguments with a bullet in the face or a bomb under a car to an understanding that in the real world you have to deal with those who oppose your world view in a constructive and civilised manner.

    Sinn Fein have dropped well short in their great leap forward and that manifests in threats to walk away or running to others to apply pressure or muster arguments that are beyond them.

    The Shinners’ cheerleaders support their disfunctional approach by chorusing ‘bigotry’ from stage left and gripping tightly on to the old comfort blanket of it’s ‘all themuns fault’.

  • Laughing (Tory) Unionist

    Seriously, Murphy, a Shinner, said, ‘Agreements reached in political negotiations need to be honoured’? You’re sh*tting me? A Shinner mouthed off about people needing to honour agreements they’ve pledged themselves to? A Shinner?! That’s not just disengenuous, dishonest, shameless, cretinous and utterly ineffectual spoofing, it’s Slabbery SPADDERY! But I thought there rules against putting plastics on the public payroll?

  • igor

    Dear Mayoman

    Its always interesting to get that reaction from a SF supporter. We unionists always find that, after 30+ years of murdering members of our and their own community, the level of sanctimonious claptrap we get from SF supporters is amazing. So lets set a few things straight.

    It isn’t unionists who are running to Dublin and London trying to force the DUPs to concede. It is SF. Why? Because they cannot get their own way and having agreed to a framework and process cannot live within it.

    SF freely entered a system that gave both sides an interlock on progress. When it suits them (eg Education) they have used it. When it suits others to use it they scream blue murder. Then the invoke the call that by not giving in to them (the ‘good ‘ republicans) you strengthen the other ‘bad’ republicans. This is blackmail by proxy and will not work.

    The simple fact is that the DUPS are running rings around them and being in Government has exposed SFs deep weaknesses. For years the Government and Unionists wanted SF into Government and SF played that card exceptionally well extracting concession after concession. Now SF want P&J and want it badly – and there will be a price. The DUPs have alreday laid out some of the shopping list on parades and education to name just 2.

    So SF are sceaming and threateneing. So what? They will walk out they say? Fine. Do that. Where does it take us all? We will force an election they say and we will be in the First Minister’s Chair. That’s a bit presumptuous to assume that the Unionists will accept a new election or participate in it. So again, where does that take you or all of us?

    No sorry, the bottom line is simple. SF have to learn how to do real politics within this framework. That means negotiation and compromise. That means that when they have lied to their constituency (a United Ireland by 2016!!! – yeah, right boys) they have to manage them and start telling the truth, not just blaming it all on the wicked Brits / Prods / Anyone else who is handy. That means that they also have to stop blocking progress on issues like community reconcilliation

    Oh yes, and they have to learn that when they don’t get everything they want sending Marty to cry to Mammy wont work anymore. Mammy is busy and may also think that its time the childer grew up.

  • igor

    Dear Sammy

    Love your Board of Directors analogy.

    So are you saying then that Marty is the employee/subordinate of the British and Irish Governments then?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    igor,

    that’s like me asking you is the British government his SF’s mother based on your comparison.

    We use comparisons to aid understanding I hope i have assisted you in that.

    Trev,

    re. “6.Sinn Fein just don’t do politics”

    I see. So the fact that all sensible opinion, British and Irish, including the 2 governments, the Aliance Party, the SDLP, SF, the Police want something to happen and we even have the American SOS has explained that much needed US investment will be encouraged by it and we have one party, a Unionist part (as usual) trying to hold things up.

    This same Unionist party has just had it arse kicked at the last elections so it is understandably nervous – but space and time has been afforded and they need to move on i.e. do the politics.

  • Red Diesel Republican

    Pirate, the point is not whether Sean Hughes is guilty or innocent. He is entitled to due process and presumption of innocence, but we are also entitled as a community to due process, which means that guilt or innocence should not be in the gift of ministers or politicians of any stripe. Conor Murphy and Michelle Gildernew are dropping pretty broad hints that within their interpretation of devolution of policing and justice, there would be no action against suspected assets of their friends and associates. They prejudge due process by claiming that the freezing of Hughes’s assets constitutes political policing – that is an argument that belongs in the High Court where the freezing order was made. They are in fact arguing for political policing, not against it. There was no presumption of innocence for Paul Quinn when Conor Murphy, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness called him a criminal with a direct political purpose – to try to deflect suspicion from their political associates and funders in the Provisional IRA. It is perfectly proper to question them, and in particular Conor Murphy who is the local MP, on these matters. It is perfectly proper to question him and Michelle Gildernew on their concept of political policing in the context of them pressing for devolution. Conor Murphy has a credibility mountain to climb in any debate on policing because even as the Gardai and PSNI launched their investigation of Paul’s murder, he was consulting with the local Provo command and declaring all their volunteers innocent on the word of the OC, who may be an officer but is no gentleman. How’s that for political policing?

  • DaithiO

    Trev: “Sinn Fein just don’t do politics.”

    Slugger Politician of the Year: Martin McGuinness.

    Suffice to say the rest of your post was therefore not worth reading. Anything you’d like to bring to the debate?

  • Just wondering

    Exactly who is, or will be in charge of the British Army troops operating here? Presumably it is Shaun Woodward. Would this shift to David ford if P&J is devolved?

  • Mayoman

    Igor: in answer, a few things I feel are plain to see….

    “Its always interesting to get that reaction from a SF supporter. “

    I am no such thing, but I am not blinded by bigotry enough to properly allocate blame to all involved in killings, including those who voted for mainstream parties in full knowledge of their associations with paramilitaries.

    “It isn’t unionists who are running to Dublin and London trying to force the DUPs to concede. It is SF. Why?”

    Because it is unionists breaking an agreement which has led to the relative peace today. It will, therefore, be the unionists’ fault if it breaks down, and the govts have a vested interest in that not happening. Full devolution is accepted by everybody but unionists. Back to those closed minds again!

    “That’s a bit presumptuous to assume that the Unionists will accept a new election or participate in it.”

    Now who is threatening to take the ball if things don’t go their way? Closed minds and hypocrisy, and still not one ounce of any intelligence! Still, I have no doubt that unionists will turn their back on the expressed democratic wishes of all on the island (democracy was never a unionist strong point) should that road pander to their dogma, even in the absence of any sense.

    “SF have to learn how to do real politics within this framework.”

    As do the DUP, and its the DUP, scared of the TUV, acting in poor faith that is threatening the current role of ‘politics within this framework’. The negotiation on this point is over, time to prove unionists ‘can do politics’.

    “Mammy is busy and may also think that its time the childer grew up.”

    Back to intellectual debate. You surely are the cream of unionist brains aren’t you!

  • “Its amazing Robinson can look that incompetent”

    Mayoman, I thought it was Comical Marty and his associates who’d dug themselves into a hole. Haven’t you read Pete Baker’s hyper-linked blogs? AFAIK Pete isn’t a Unionist.

    Why would you expect the DUP (or the SDLP) to give Comical Marty a helping hand? There’s an election in the offing.

  • Big Bopper

    Nevin..
    McGuinness doesn’t actually dig holes. Though he is directly responsible for a lot of holes being dug in protestant church graveyards across the country.
    That’s how he got where he is today.

  • Trev

    So, according to some, the world and his wife are for a P&J move into the Assembly. And “only” a unionist party are agin it?

    So what is being said here; just steamroller over the opposition and move on?

    What is that echo from the Shinner past about ‘respecting mandates’? Perhaps it’s in the same sh*tbin alongside ‘an Ireland of equals’.

    Here’s a Stop Press: politicians with different views will disagree with each other and as majority rule does not exist in NI that means compromise is the only game in town.

    Given Sinn Fein’s fascist antecedents this is something of a novel concept but they just have to keep working at it.

    As to being in or out of step with opinion, well it was not too many years ago that a rollcall of the great and good condemned Sinn Fein’s murder machine.

    You know what? The bodycount kept rising. After that a bit of politics, even confrontational politics, is something that can be lived with.

  • igor

    Mayoman

    “it is unionists breaking an agreement ”

    Just what agreement? It was an agreement to devolve. There was no agreement on when. SF didnt tie that down. That was somewhat careless but the DUPs rightly argue that they will comply when the time is right.

    And don’t quibble that this is unfair. the Shinners played exactly the same game on support for PSNI. I think it took them 4 years or so to ensure that there was ‘sufficient confidence in the community’ for them to take that step so why do you begrudge Robbo a few more months – or even a year or so. PS the DUPs actually stole the phraseology they use from SF. Ouch!

    ” Full devolution is accepted by everybody but unionists.”

    Where is your evidence for that ie that unionists don’t support it? And furthermore if Unionists dont accept it that means the majority of NI people dont accept it so ultimately it is bound to fail.

    “Who took the ball”

    We can have a wondeful circular argument on this that will do no-ones blood pressure any good but a unionst perspective may be that, if SF collapse the asseembly, that was down to them. If unionists or nationalists are then asked to particiapte in an election we all need to know what we are voting for. What are the proposed mandates? Until those are agreed it would be pointless. And by the way that’s driven by political logic not bigotry.

    ” still not one ounce of any intelligence!”

    Intelligence is not just doing what you think they should do. And when was intelligence ever a significant feature of NI politics. Was it intelligence to let SF and the DUPs create a sectarian carve up betwen the extremes? Was it intelligence not to tie down the agreements in detailed terms? Was it intelligence when this debate was going on to have a SF Minister jumping up and down screaming about the seizing of assets from an alleged criminal who (whoops again) happens to be a former activist and whose wife (double whoops) is a member of a DPP?

    Do the Shinners actually want devolution or are they play acting and just seeking political advantage?

    ‘Acting in poor faith’ – see points above. Its not poor faith to polutically stiff your political enemies if they are stupid enough to let you put them in that polisution (Gospel Accoding to Sty Gerry Chapetr 1 verse 1)

    ” The negotiation on this point is over” I am glad you have decided that for them all. I just hope they agree with your clear sense of wisdom.

    Finally, I may not be the cream of unionist brains. Who knows. And I obviously before before your vastly superior intelligence and moral superiority. Why you could almost be the politcial equivalent of a Catholic Bishop! But what you have to come to terms with is that there is an awful lot of Proddies in the North, they have to be accommodated and given their religious commitment to free will (and that was a joke) have the power to say ‘No’ if they disagree.

  • greagoir o frainclin

    “run to mammy and daddy… here we go again…”

    Ha Ha…. But ah sure no wonder, when ye’s are still hanging on to Mammy’s apron strings. Don’t let go now what ever ye’s do, for ye’s might get lost. Don’t forget to share Mammy’s sweets too, and let’s have no bullying like before! Impertinent and unruly brats says at wits end Mammy.

  • danielmoran

    Running scared of Sunny Jim in the run up to westminster election. Peter Robinson is to political leadership what john and edward is to singing.

  • paddy

    never mind the police reserves as a condition for pj we want the bodys back for a cristian burial these animals no were these people are buried if these animals refuse to hand over the hidden bodys then fxxk em.maybe mrs mc conville is comming back to haunt gerry sticking her hand out of the sand.and the other part of pj means justice

  • Jimmy Sands

    “To support my membership of our execrable government, to maintain the connection with England, the never failing source of all our political solutions, and to assert the dependence of my country–these were my objects.”

    Checkmate.