Sinn Fein “not interested in managing the economy”

Speaking to reporters in Dublin yesterday Gerry Adams MP, MLA, President of Sinn Fein said:

“What we want is change; we’re not interested in managing the economy.”

  • igor

    Well, whats new? We know that if it doesnt have a flag wrapped around it SF dont have a policy

  • Scaramoosh

    He would be a strange type of “subversive” if he wanted to manage the economy, wouldn’t he 😉

    Interesting to note, that having said in his Independent piece that; “In Ireland, we don’t have the old boys’ network, the breeding grounds for the permanent government, the military establishment. We don’t have that.”

    Adams says; “The Government thought the people were “asleep”, said the Sinn Féin leader, adding that the Nama proposals were about “rewarding their friends”.

    Now that would be the old boys’ network in operation Gerry…….

  • igor

    ” In Ireland, we don’t have the old boys’ network, the breeding grounds for the permanent government, the military establishment. We don’t have that.”

    …..total utter drivel ….

    ….. a core skill for a politician is to judge what he can get away with in misleading the public. He’s losing it

  • grannie trixie

    To confess that, in these economic times, is unbelievably lacking in politcal astuteness. It confines the party to an aspiration of perpetual opposition and not being willing or able to take on the full range of leadership duties. Ofcourse it may be that Gerry is,after all, just an honest guy?.

  • DR

    Little as I know about RoI politicians, I get the impression that alot of the FF ministers etc. are from “old republican families” harknig back to the civil war era, and it has to be asked would Gerry be where he is today but for his family background on both his mothers and fathers side, old boys networks can operate in the IRA just as much as in the army or Public schools.
    As for the ecomony Gerry seems to say, let it crash and burn and we will rebuild a perfect new socialist republic.

  • “we’re not interested in managing the economy”

    No. Really.

    GA: “Mr. Adams described the current coalition as ‘incompetent and inept’”

    Sounds a bit like, er, Stormont. [Cue retort from Comical Marty]

    GA: “We believe nationalisation of the main banks will deal with the banking crisis in the fairest way for the taxpayer.”

    Now that sounds a bit like managing the economy. Don’t let the bankers create a mess; leave it to the politicians.

    GA: “those who have the ability to pay more have not been asked to do so.”

    Would the Irish treasury expect this ‘author’ or his associates in the PRM’s organised crime unit to throw a few euros in the collection plate? Have they been left out in the cold?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Grizzly will no doubt clarify this remark by inserting the the word ‘unfair’ or similar before the word economy.

    His substantive point that the government should seek a mandate for NAMA is reasonable and as Paddy Power still has 2009 as favourite for an election year – it is widely shared.

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    “What we want is change; we’re not interested in managing the economy.”

    I think Adams has lost the plot. His utterances over the last few years hold no substance whatsoever. It’s just the same old vacuous rhetoric over and over again of “we want change, we need change, we need rights, equal rights, I’m right, we’re right, right, right, right ” etc….

    Himself and his shadow Mary Lou are no tour de force, but a bit of a joke in Irish politics, if there are not enough already!

    Time for a new leader and let the sinister and now obsolete “old guard” go.

  • unionist in dublin

    It never fails to surprise me just how much southerners hate sinn fein. This latest comment will further cement the image of his party as a total joke.

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    “GA: “those who have the ability to pay more have not been asked to do so.”

    Aye, I’m sure Gerry and Marty have good few bob tucked away. All those years of receiving the MP’s/MLA’s “Queens Shilling”, affording holiday homes in Donegal etc…So as he says it’s about time the likes of himself contributed more to the tax payer and society.

    BTW, Mary Lou lives in middle class Castleknock, Dublin. No wonder Christy Burke left the party. Being an old Joe Soap Dub he doesn’t do “hypocrisy” like his former croanies in SF.

  • igor

    Gee Sammy, Gerry is lucky to have you to help turn his garbled nonsense into something sounding half sensible.

    Careful now …you could end up as Finance Minister

  • igor

    “those who have the ability to pay more have not been asked to do so.”

    What, like those who have expensive holiday homes in Donegal but are domicile in Northern Ireland so dont pay tax in the Reopublic they love?

    And as the owners of those houses only ever were paid the average industrial wage it follows that all Irish workers should have been able to afford them and therefore that all Irish workers should be able to afford to bail out the State in its hour of need.

    It’s simple. We should call it Gerrynomics – economics with more bullshit and no pain

  • Mack

    This is disappointing from Sinn Fein.

    Mr Adams said: “The proposals are so devastating, in terms of the social guarantees, the social structure of the State; they are going to affect people, not just of our generation, but for the next generation; they are so deep-rooted and so cutting into the very fabric of what should be people’s rights, and any government that wants to bring about those type of changes should go and seek a mandate for it.”

    Yes they are devastating. But the ride up the bubble pushed beyond what we could afford. An economy inflated by borrowed money – the money supply increased by up 35% per year between 2001-2007.

    What this means is that our standard of living was dependent on borrowing. When the borrowing stopped, we were fecked. The banks that did the wholesale borrowing are bankrupt, the developers that did the retail borrowing are bust too and the exchequer that taxed the economic activity also a busted flush.

    There is no pretty way out of this folks. Taxes up, spending down, gov. debt way up, bailing out at least some of the banks.

    Referendums act as blockers, it’s easy to say we’re opposed to this solution, but let’s face we’re going to be opposed to every solution that would work – if it’s presented in isolation. It would be better now though to articulate, honestly and bluntly alternative paths. Then let’s debate that, if the opposition wins the debate surely pressure would mount on the Greens and FF backbenchers to pull the plug?

  • fin

    ah, its been at least 24 hours since slugger gave Gerry a kicking, his view is alng the linesof what the Irish Labour Party has proposed.

    A lot of govts including London promised banking reform

    Ah whats the point, you hate Sinn Fein, so it doesn’t matter whats said you’ll just want the opposite,

  • Mack

    Fin –

    Labour have been pretty poor as well. I have an idea of what Fine Gael’s alternative is, apart from favouring nationalisation of the banks (temporary in Labour’s case) – what do SF and Labour stand for? How do they propose dealing with the fiscal crises?

    And for the opposition as a whole – what compromises would they accept?

    Otherwise it’s the current menu by default..

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    fin,

    what will they talk about when the great man eventually (which hopefully is a long way off) retires ?

  • igor

    Arent those members of Sinn Fein who never had to borrow to fund their houses (or indeed their second houses) lucky that they have managed to avoid the problems of ‘the little people’ in this recessionary time.

  • crow

    the problems of ‘the little people’

    Are you refering to dwarfs?

  • fin

    Mack, hard to spot any goverment who knows how to handle the situation apart from throwing cash at the banks,

    you mention FG and Labour the 2 parties who have gained most market share from all this.

    Is an election a bad thing, it means every party has to put their proposals on the table

    However, reengineering the economy is ahuge project, for some time I’ve believed that SF should promote a cooperative approach in certain industries, similar to Spain (and GB) and to approach the issue piecemeal fixing individual areas one at a time and piecing it all together. A Ulster agricultural co-op would be a good starting place

    Sammy, I believe Pete Baker intents to lighten up and start stalking Britney Spears instead once the Big Man ambles off

  • kensei

    God this is tedious. I understand the sentiment, which is not that far removed from other people stating there needs to be major changes tohow the economy works. I assume everyone else does. But it is expressed in cack terms.

    Unfortunate, worth a boot as far as it goes, but the pile on is boring as fuck.

    Mack

    I think he’s right there should be an election on these issues. These are things far removed from what anyone saw walking into the last election. And an election would force the opposition parties to present the electorate with alternatives. This would have several advantages. It would force the opposition into considering realistic choices, and force the electorate to choose betwen them.

    That involves the electorate and gives them buy in. It probably won’t happen, and that could get ugly.

  • OC

    “Are you refering to dwarfs?”

    The wife of a multi-million dollar New York real estate developer was in court for income tax evasion.

    Leona Helmsley’s goose was cooked when a witness testified that she had told him, “Only little people pay taxes.”

  • Mack

    Kensei –

    I have my suspicions that the Irish left are content to allow FF to make the hard decisions now, so that they won’t have to later. It’s win-win for them, in that the cuts will win them votes & help dig Ireland out of the fiscal crisis. They have singularly failed to put forward a credible plan to solve that problem (FG have and it’s probably cost them some public sector votes).

    The thing is, that tactic means NAMA is a dead cert – because we’re not going to have the debate now that could force an election. And if we did blunder into an election without such a debate (I can’t see it happening without a capitulation from the FF backbench or the Greens), I think that could be equally disasterous. Parties are going to have give ground somewhere – what frankenstein policies might that create – if they don’t have to withstand an electoral test?

  • Mack

    Fin –

    An election won’t occur because opposition politicians call for it, it will only occur when it becomes clear to the FF & Green rank and file that they have lost the debate and are blundering on with policies that will destroy any chance of future prosperity in the country and lumber them with the blame. There is no coherent & cohesive alternative to the government at the minute – they’re unpopular because money that was borrowed has gone. We’re poorer than we thought we were and that is painful and we’re angry at FF for causing this mess. Anger isn’t enough when the next election doesn’t have to occur until 2012. In fact it’s a pretty damn good reason for FF & the Greens to huddle together to weather out the storm..

  • fin

    whats obvious from this thread and life in general is that SF need to learn to publicly say the opposite of what they want, I bet if Gerry had said the last thing needed was an election this thread would be demanding one. The system of government in NI is not at fault its the MLAs and the kneejerk reaction against SF

  • fin

    Mack in a why you have argued against yourself in that post, if theres no alternative at the moment nows a good time for an election giving FF their mandate and silencing the opposition, alternatively, get out of power and let some other mug take the hit, and regain power when times are better, FF actually have form for doing just that back in the 70+80s’

  • Mack

    Fin –

    I didn’t say there was no alternative government, or even alternative policies. E.g. I’m very clear on what FG’s policies are, but I’m unsure of what Labour would do (except defend public sector pay). In the medium term FF will recapture some of the ground they are losing now because come the big day (3 years away), some people will prefer the devil you know to a leap into the unknown (esp. if we see some recovery before then).

    If they called and election now it would mean wipeout for FF and possibly the Greens – so there is good reason for them to resist it. However, if there was a proper debate and it was clear that NAMA was going to be a noose around the Greens parties neck – might they change their minds?

    But, anyway, as far as SF go – I haven’t a clue what they would actually do if they got into power. This offers open-ended interpretations – “What we want is change; we’re not interested in managing the economy.” Could even mean Cuba in the rain style economics..

  • Quagmire

    Yet more anti SF, anti Republican tripe from Conall. Look, the SDLP are never going to recover. They are an irrelevance to the vast majority of nationalist people in the north. The people have made their choice time and again and it is SF. Get over it. Perhaps instead of perpetually concentrating on attacking SF McDevitt, Durkan, McDonnell et al should maybe take a look at their own house. It is Mark Durkan afterall who wants to “remove the ugly scaffolding” of the GFA and usher in a new era of Unionist majority mis-rule.

  • Hi Quagmire

    Thanks for your comment. Just to be clear about this post. I offered no opinion on Mr Adams words. All I did was reproduce what the man said. Case of shooting the messenger maybe?

    Conall

  • Sean

    Quagmire

    Never say never but I agree as long as they pursue their policy of deferment to unionist rule their goose is cooked

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Conall,

    as a matter of interest did you just select those particular words at random from his speech?

  • barnshee

    21.“Are you refering to dwarfs?”

    The wife of a multi-million dollar New York real estate developer was in court for income tax evasion.

    Leona Helmsley’s goose was cooked when a witness testified that she had told him, “Only little people pay taxes.”

    Jasus their after the leprechauns for tax??
    I had no idea it was that bad

  • Save us from this wretched lets make the economically poor pay for the fact that the economically rich bet the house and lost. This attitude reflects the very same mindset that stood, cheered, and roared the Celtic tiger on.

    When others were expressing caution, they were slapped down, told they were living in the past as the market decided all. Oh how I remember those days well here on slugger.

    Yet bingo, the very same people who talked up the Tiger and told us the political gofers for neo liberalism are correct, now re-emerge and tell us we must once again listen to them and start making massive cuts in welfare benefits.

    Not one of you folk said a word when the UK Blair Government or the government in the South, said we must not manage the economy but reform and deregulate it. Yet now they’re handiwork has produced the current mess and Adams comes along and says much the same, only this time there is good reason for reforms, all we get is bile.

    Maybe cuts in certain areas of government spending may be necessary, but unless they start with tax hikes for those who benefited most from the tiger and played a leading role in getting us where we are, then; to put it bluntly,

    Up yours.

  • Hi Sammy

    I have to say that line did jump out at me.

    Conall

  • Mack

    Save us from this wretched lets make the economically poor pay for the fact that the economically rich bet the house and lost

    Who said that Mick?

    If you want my own take – the banks should be allowed collapse, there should be no taxpayer bailout. Depositors should be protected to at least to the first €100k as per the protection scheme, but bondholders should bear the brunt.

    That way even if the banks wished to re-engage in the madness of the past, the bond market would not fund it. There would be no moral hazard.

    You argue that this mess is as a result of market forces – in truth this mess exists because market forces are prevented from working. Those who took risks are being bailed-out by those who didn’t. This socialism for rich people, not capitalism.

    But like I said, no credible alternative is presented. Just platitudes that mean the current menu will be served..

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Conall,

    re. your selection.

    yes, it is a very poor line in the middle of a fairly reasonable point (as per the IT headline) that the Plain People should be consulted about NAMA.

    So, although I would never be in favour in any sort of punishment, shootings or otherwise, being handed out to messengers of any persuasion – you should hardly be too suprised that your ‘selection’ might not be that well received.

    ps On further reflection Grizzly may have been signalling further an end to SF ‘socialism’ ie not wanting to interfere too much in the market economy.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Mack,

    I’m largely with you – except that all deposits should be saved and the property market should be allowed ‘collapse’ ie find its own level – probably at about 40% off the value at the top of the market, with a discouragement* on the purchase of more than one property per person.

    *extremely high tax on sale/profit.

  • Quagmire

    You may have offered no opinion on the piece Conall, but there has been for some time a pattern of behaviour emerging i.e. SDLP good, Sinn Fein bad, which is fair enough if that’s your opinion, which I suspect it is, but please don’t operate under the pretense that you are a impartial observer because quite clearly you are not. By the by, I just completed a Post Grad in Communications, Advertising and Public Relations and was cheekily wondering do you have any suggestions or can you offer any advice in relation to how I would go about getting some experience? Would be much appreciated.

  • Mack

    ’twas Sammy McNally –

    That might work if it’s inflation adjusted. Genuine landlords provide a service – it’s in our interest that they purchase and modernise properties for renters. They should be able to make money doing this (otherwise they won’t bother which will force rents up until they do). If a tax structure can be found that prevents speculative buying in the hope of price rises alone – without resulting in extortionate rents – that would be great. Stamp duty failed abysmally in that regard, but the government became addicted to those revenues.

    Proper planning would help too. The whole process should be opened up so as to be transparent. Imo, guidelines should be put in place that allow increasing densities in Dublin city centre and public resources (metro & luas, commuter trains, schools, acute medical services, offices etc) should be located there (with services such as large park and rides at the edge at suburban luas stops). This might stop the price of land in suburban and commuter-ville regions skyrocketing because developers figure they can build 500 apartments on top of one and other in an area serviced by a country lane and a few cows..

  • Mack,

    There is a political and media campaign to soften up the electorate to not only accept cuts in the welfare state as being inevitable, but also make them believe there is no alternative.

    We both know that when these cut come they will be directed at those who will be least able to afford them and to boot who benefited least from the Celtic tiger. Whilst those who are most responsible for the crash will be ring fenced from economic loss.

    You make an interesting point about letting the failed banks go to the wall, I certainly believe the worst offenders should have gone down, with government protection for savers and bond holders under a certain sum. 50K seems fair, although I could live with 100K. Unlike you I believe governments should have stepped in ad scooped up the viable assets of the failed banks and without compensation and formed a bank[s]
    which could then got the re-lending show on the road.

    If there is one thing that this, and the 1929 plus recession proves, is that markets must be regulated. It is not rocket science but basic civilized economics.

    What has the years of de-regulated financial markets produced, prior to Roosevelt’s reforms all it produced was massive wealth for the few and abject poverty and low wage slavery for the masses.

    And what is the end result of the de-regulation which began with Reagan and Thatcher in the 1980s, more poverty, the engine of the west, the USA on its uppers and the world is in hock to the State capitalism of mockney communist China, with all the trouble this will bring in its wake. [which incidentally proves in itself that State economic planning is an essential in the 21st century.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Mack,

    “Genuine landlords provide a service ”

    Landlords should be fairly far down the pecking order – their day may, as the much-unfairly-maligned Grizzly might well say, has already tiocfaidh-ed. With a good supply of cheap property avialable the requirement for landlording will be greatly reduced and there should be no shortage of property in central Dublin for some time – let a Nama-type agency release property (now owned by the Plain people of Ireland) at drastrically reduced prices to the people who actually own it and need it.

  • Mack
    you wrote

    “it’s in our interest that [private landlords-mh] they purchase and modernise properties for renters.”

    Sorry mate but it is not in ‘our’ interest as housing associations, etc, do this job much better, allowing private landlords into this area has been a disaster. The markets should never be allowed to set the cost of a roof over ones head, humanity has been there done that with disastrous results, are we really doomed to continuos repeat our mistakes just as long as some arsehole gets rich.

    The Sub prime disaster partially came about due to people who for economic reasons should have been renting, buying because it seemed a better option for them. No more it seems as they go to bed in a squat.

    The current cost to the UK tax payer of housing benefit would be reduced enormously if these exploiting private landlords were removed from the equation.

    A home is to live in, not to make money out of, to me the very thought is offensive. If at the end of our lives we are fortunate to own a house and be able to leave a few quid to our kids great, it is a bonus for them. But for our young people to be entrapped in a mortgage when it is not in their best interest, is placing a dead weight on their shoulders and society as a whole.

    Again, no omelet! nothing but broken egg shells.

  • Mack

    Sorry mate but it is not in ‘our’ interest as housing associations, etc, do this job much better, allowing private landlords into this area has been a disaster

    I’m not sure – I don’t know much about housing associations. If you mean your bog standard council built social housing – I disagree, we spent the recent past tearing down and rebuilding the worst of those. I am sceptical that publicly owned housing will be well maintained in the long run (or even well built in the first place).

    We rent from a private landlord and it’s a nice well maintained house, in an area from which I can commute without a car. I agree though that property speculation has been a scourge. Proper competition among private landlords should help keep rents down, and standards up.

    The current cost to the UK tax payer of housing benefit would be reduced enormously if these exploiting private landlords were removed from the equation.

    In Ireland it’s slightly different. I had debate with Nat O’Connor about this on Slugger and Progressive-economy.ie. There is a huge oversupply of properties in Ireland, but the government funds either 40% or 60% of all rents pretty much handing over the max allowance per household. In effect they are putting a floor on prices (subsidising landlords). What’s needed is better negogiation to drive down rents. If the government is the biggest buyer they should be calling the shots..

  • barnshee

    If you want my own take – the banks should be allowed collapse, there should be no taxpayer bailout. Depositors should be protected to at least to the first €100k as per the protection scheme, but bondholders should bear the brunt.

    Gut reaction sounds good
    Unfortunately the share holders and bond holders are largely insurance funds and pension funds + the odd individual bond holder. in short funds held in trust for joe public.

    Banks collapse joe public one way or another picks up the bill

  • Mack

    Mick –

    Unlike you I believe governments should have stepped in ad scooped up the viable assets of the failed banks and without compensation and formed a bank[s]
    which could then got the re-lending show on the road.

    But this would have meant that bank debt in effect became government debt (much like the guarantee, which at least had an explicit deadline). The bond markets would have learnt the lesson not to trust the Irish government with money (rather than just the banks).

    If there is one thing that this, and the 1929 plus recession proves, is that markets must be regulated. It is not rocket science but basic civilized economics.

    Yes, I agree that markets should be regulated in inverse proportion to their willingness to allow bankruptcies / creative destruction / the extent to which moral hazard exists within the system.

    And what is the end result of the de-regulation which began with Reagan and Thatcher in the 1980s, more poverty, the engine of the west, the USA on its uppers and the world is in hock to the State capitalism of mockney communist China, with all the trouble this will bring in its wake

    I disagree here. We’re a lot wealthier than we were in 1980 (even since then central heating, mircowaves, videos, dvds, personal computers, internet, mobile phones, cheap telecommunications, cheaper cars, cheap foreign travel etc). The UK was on it’s knees pre-Thatcher, they’d just had a visit from the IMF. The USA was on it’s knees then too – crippled by a decade of high inflation.

    There is a political and media campaign to soften up the electorate to not only accept cuts in the welfare state as being inevitable, but also make them believe there is no alternative.

    My take is that a large part of the wealth in the economy – including exchequer returns was not real. It was money that borrowed rather than earnt. When the borrowing stopped the money disappeared. That means we can’t afford the tax cuts or the spending rises we paid ourselves. We can either borrow to keep the party going and hope that one day we do earn enough to afford our cost base – or we take the pain one way or another. You can argue to the toss about what should be cut and what taxes should rise (bearing in mind the top rate of tax has jumped almost 10% in the last 12 months) but with spending close to €60bn and revenues of close to €30bn – somethings got to give. FWIW on welfare – I would be strongly opposed to making cuts on benefits to unemployed workers just as they need the system most. I have a different opinion of continuing to pay highish benefits to those who game the system.

  • Mack

    Barnshee –

    True – while I would hope that the bondholders and shareholders are geographically dispersed. The little guys invested that way, unlike taxpayers, signed up to take some risk (the instituitions hopefully have diversified so as to reduce that risk). Ultimately, they took a risk and lost – taxpayers didn’t.

  • Mack

    Mick –

    50K seems fair, although I could live with 100K

    The only reason I chose 100k was that was what the depositors guarantee was prior to the blanket guarantee (though that had been raised from €22k just weeks earlier). Incidentally the fund to pay out depositors was supposed to be funded by the banks. Needless to say, it was underfunded..

    The one danger with any limit for depositors (whether it’s 22k, 50k, or 100k) is that some firms may struggle to meet payroll if their balances are wiped out. I’ve no idea how big a factor that would be.

  • John O’Connell

    Gerry Adams’ statement just goes to show you that for some its stupid, the economy.

    Gerry just hasn’t got a clue and, given his past, I think that he is just a deviant, dangerous player in this game rather than someone to be palmed off with a joke.

  • igor

    “the pile on is boring as fuck”

    kensei

    Perhaps it is but please allow us at least this. Its all we can do since our democracy was hijacked.

  • Comrade Stalin

    igor:

    Gee Sammy, Gerry is lucky to have you to help turn his garbled nonsense into something sounding half sensible.

    Sammy’s gifts are way beyond that. He has the ability to determine Sinn Fein’s policies telepathically, often based upon what they did not say, or indeed the opposite of what they did say.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Mickhall:

    A home is to live in, not to make money out of, to me the very thought is offensive.

    But that shows why socialists like yourself are so out of touch with the people you claim to be speaking for, all of whom took up the opportunity to become capitalists and purchase their own house from the local council.

    [..China..] which incidentally proves in itself that State economic planning is an essential in the 21st century.

    But China isn’t a state-planned economy. It is selling products and the labour of it’s workforce at cheap rates to the West; this is pure capitalism. I believe you guys used to use to call this practice the exploitation of the working classes as wage slaves. But because they’re waving a red flag, you overlook it in their case. Typical.

    One other major benefit to this is that it reduces the probability of war and keeps Chinese militarism in check. Why pick a fight with the West or its allies when doing so would mean that all that debt can’t be repaid ?

  • Cahal

    SammyMcNally
    “I’m largely with you – except that all deposits should be saved and the property market should be allowed ‘collapse’ ie find its own level – probably at about 40% off the value at the top of the market, with a discouragement* on the purchase of more than one property per person.”

    Anything that is selling is already at least 40% below peak. Most vendors are still in cuckoo land.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Cahal,

    I actually meant to say 40% ‘of’ the value i.e. 60% from the top of the market.

  • comrade Stalin,

    Nowhere did I write that I am against house ownership, indeed if you read this,

    “A home is to live in, not to make money out of, to me the very thought is offensive. If at the end of our lives we are fortunate to own a house and be able to leave a few quid to our kids great, it is a bonus for them.

    As you can see from my quote, I see any profit one may turn on a home in the long term as a welcome bonus, what I am against is using homes as a commodity, to be traded in the same way as say stocks and shares. The reason I am against this is twofold, first a roof over ones head is the most basic of human rights, without it a human beings are doomed to suffer greatly, thus like health care, law and order and education it cannot be left to the market alone.

    At this time, I really do not need to go into the details about the down side of deliberately created house price inflation, surly?

    When I mentioned China it was not to praise that Stalinist abomination that rules that land, but simply to point out the Chinese government have used central planning successfully to create their State capitalist exploitative system.

    You know where I stand politically, as I have said time and again I am opposed to all dictatorships, no matter they be on the left or right political. Whilst I do not expect you to agree with me, I am sure it is all bunkum to you, but if we are to debate at least show me the respect of where I am coming from.

    Your’re mistaken about the economy being in meltdown in the 1960-70s, yes it needed to be modernized, but selling the family silver and mass deregulation and not giving a shit about the ‘collateral human damage was not the way to go about doing this.

    Indeed, instead of using north sea oil revenues productively to retrain/re-skill and modernize the manufacturing base, Thatcher fritted them away, using them to buy off revolt, something few mention these days. The reason this recession has hit the UK far harder than our EU neighbors is they refused to go whole heartedly down the reactionary and costly Thatcher-Reagan road.

    Mack,

    Thanks for your considered reply I would like to chew this over some more but I am pushed for time and must go and do those things that put bread on the table [life sucks sometimes 😉

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    Conor Murphy for leader!

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    only kiddin?