Pro-abortion no bar for Barack

Why is the Pope warmer towards Obama than many US Catholic bishops who deplore his pro-choice and pro-stem cells approach? An interesting New York Times discussion.

In most European nations, meanwhile, the abortion debate is basically closed

Not quite all.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]Why is the Pope warmer towards Obama than many US Catholic bishops2[/i]

    He likes tanned men?

  • 6countyprod

    Apparently the Pope did not hold back any punches when he met Obama.

    On the meeting between Pope Benedict and Obama AP reports that:

    ‘Pope Benedict XVI stressed the church’s opposition to abortion and stem cell research in his first meeting with President Barack Obama on Friday, pressing the Vatican’s case with the U.S. leader who is already under fire on those issues from some conservative Catholics and bishops back home.

    “In the course of their cordial exchanges, the conversation turned first of all to questions which are in the interest of all and which constitute a great challenge … such as the defense and promotion of life and the right to abide by one’s conscience,” the statement said.

    Even in his gift to the U.S. leader, the pope sought to underscore his beliefs. Benedict gave Obama a copy of a Vatican document on bioethics that hardened the church’s opposition to using embryos for stem cell research, cloning and in-vitro fertilization. Obama supports stem cell research.’

    Using the opportunity with Obama as a ‘teaching moment’ the Pope played ‘good cop’, but had the same message as the conservative American bishops.

  • 6countyprod
  • Pete Baker

    If I may attempt to paraphrase, Brian.

    Over-rated medieval entity continues to promote Un-Enlightenment.

    Which, of course, was Francis Bacon’s fault, natch.

  • Danny O’Connor

    Brian,it wasn’t the invitation to Obama to speak that annoyed so many US Catholics,it was the decision to give him a degree.
    If a university describes itself as Catholic,is it unreasonable for people to expect them to act as such?

  • Pete Baker

    Btw, it’s not the first trial of strength between Emperor Constantine Pope Benedict XVI and The One.

  • Driftwood

    Most catholics on the UK mainland accept abortion as normal. It’s an acceptable medical procedure, defined by the BMA. If anyone has a problem with it, resign as a doctor and become a missionary. But then the moneys not as good.
    Better to refer patients to ‘the mainland’ and pick up the dosh while serving his holiness Pius xxxv or whatever, conscience clear.
    Sure there’s always confession..

  • Danny O’Connor

    yes driftwood and gassing jews was an accepted medical procedure for the nazis.

  • Driftwood

    You comparing the BMA to the SS?
    Get real. They have an ethics committee chaired by top academics.
    Scientists do the logistics. Zygotes are just collections of cells. And human embryos little different to rats. We’re not that different. same ancestors etc.
    Godwin’s law sees the end of this debate.

  • Not half as interesting as the discussion between Benny and the Canadian PM could/should have been:

  • Driftwood

    Good call by Harper, hopefully he deposited the cookie in the nearest bin.

  • Harry Flashman

    “And human embryos little different to rats.”

    Holy fuck, and we wonder how it was that people in the past could condone the slave trade or indeed the mass murder of undermenschen.

    The exact same ideology is alive and well today.

  • Danny O’Connor

    driftwood,back to eugenics I see,the same people who pioneered the abortion issue,the Marie Stopes, Margaret Sangers of this world did not think that people who they decided were inferior because of race,disability ,or intellect should not be allowed to reproduce as it would weaken the species.
    Some of this was trialled in South Africa before the Nazis took it to another level.
    By comparing Human embryos to rats you are doing the exact same thing.that is how the Nazis operated – de-humanise the Jew -then you can do what you want .
    Incidentally Hitler had some top academics around him.

  • abucs

    In Hitler’s Germany, Jews were defined not to be human. Therefore in German law, killing them was not a crime. The ‘enlightened’ German intelligentsia would have told you the case was closed on that as well.

    and another thing – embryonic stemcell research is not the same as stemcell research. Can we at least get rid of the obvious mistakes.

    P.S. I know the Chinese term for Pope means ’emperor of Religion’ but apart from that i don’t really see any connection with Pope Benedict and Emperors. I’m not sure what sort of twisted belief system continually links the two.

  • Reader

    Danny O’Connor: By comparing Human embryos to rats you are doing the exact same thing.
    Only if he thinks he was never an embryo himself. Your analogy is crap.

  • 6countyprod

    These charts illustrate some interesting comparisons between the issues of slavery and abortion, and also the relationship between abortion and euthanasia. Thought-provoking!

  • Driftwood

    The late, great Carl Sagan had this to say:

    “If you deliberately kill a human being, it’s called murder. If you deliberately kill a chimpanzee – biologically, our closest relative, sharing 99.6 percent of our active genes – whatever else it is, it’s not murder. To date, murder uniquely applies to killing human beings. Therefore, the question of when personhood (or, if we like, ensoulment)arises is key to the abortion debate. When does the foetus become human? When do distinct and characteristic human qualities emerge?

    We recognize that specifying a precise moment will overlook individual difference. Therefore if we must draw a line, it ought to be drawn conservatively – that is, on the early side. There are people who object to having to set some numerical limit, and we share their disquiet; but if there is to be a law on the two absolutist positions, it must specify, at least roughly, a time of transition to personhood.

    Every one of us began from a dot. A fertilized egg is roughly the size of the period at the end of this sentence. The momentous meeting of sperm and egg generally occurs in one of the two fallopian tubes. One cell becomes two, two become four and so on – an exponentiation of base-2 arithmetic. By the tenth day the fertilized egg has become a kind of hollow sphere wandering off to another realm: the womb. It destroys tissue in its path. It sucks blood from capillaries. It bathes itself in maternal blood, from which it extracts oxygen and nutrients. It establishes itself as a kind of parasite on the walls of the uterus.

    By the third week, around the time of the first missed menstrual period, the forming embryo is about two millimeters long and is developing various body parts. Only at this stage does it begin to be dependent on a rudimentary placenta. It looks a little like a segmented worm. (A number of right-wing and Christian fundamentalist publications have criticized this argument – on the grounds that it is based on an obsolete doctrine, called recapitulation. The comparisons of the human foetus with other animals is based on the appearance of the foetus. Its non-human form, and nothing about its evolutionary history, is the key to the argument of these pages.)”

    Animal and human embryos at three stages of development.
    Source: “The Facts of Life”

  • Peter Fyfe

    It establishes itself as a kind of parasite on the walls of the uterus.

    Would this mean the child is now relying on its mother to provide it with nutrition, warmth and protection? Sounds very much the job of a parent to me. I suppose if you call it a parasite it makes it easier to kill.