“if that means dropping a couple of the attackers..”

The joint statement by the First and deputy First Ministers might be more convincing if the Northern Ireland Executive’s Shared Future strategy hadn’t disappeared down the back of the semi-detached polit-bureau’s sofa. Meanwhile in a statement issued through their solicitors, the McDaid family have criticised police “negotiations with a number of persons perceived to be from the Loyalist community” ahead of the murder of Kevin McDaid. As has already been stated, those negotiations involved representatives on both sides of the community, including Mr McDaid. It’s been a long established pattern of The Process™ to involve “those with influence” in such negotiations – especially those ubiquitous “community” workers.. But perhaps Kevin Myers is right..

If you want a symbol of what happens when you emasculate a police force, it goes by the name of Kevin McDaid, RIP. Two armed policemen on duty who see a gang of loyalist thugs armed with cudgels attacking a blameless mixed-community should have only one set of programmed responses. That is, to protect the innocent; if that means dropping a couple of the attackers — and by that, gentle reader, yes, I do mean shooting them dead — then so be it. If the dead had wanted to remain alive, they should have stayed at home.

, , , , ,

  • New Blue

    Meandering Snapper

    The use of ‘dye guns’ with back-up video evidencing has proven successful in other parts of the world.

    I think this whole discussion has missed the point a bit.

    If you were one of the two officers who witnessed the attack, do you really believe that you and your colleague alone would be able to contain 40-50 drunken thugs (using your firearm is not an option, because whoever you shoot will end up as ‘the wrong person’).

    The real point (In my opinion) is that PSNI took the word of ‘community representatives’ that nothing would happen, they did not put more bodies on the ground, they failed in their duty to protect the public.

    We are very good at making scape goats, the poor sods who many here are expecting to have gone in ‘all guns blazing’ are more than likely taking this media and public shit storm to heart, I am sure they are blaming themselves as much as some here are blaming them, difference is they have to live with the ‘what ifs’ for the rest of their lives.

    Instead of rounding on a couple of uniform wearers who were caught in the middle of something they could never have controlled, blame should be placed at the feet of the operational controllers who did not see a real threat and expected that the words of ‘community workers’ could control drunken thugs.

    The failure, as often is the case, lies with those who make the decisions and not with those who are stuck at the coalface.

  • eranu

    susan, politicians arent to blame for the actions of a mob. but they are to blame when it comes to shaping policing. we could look back at what each party’s policing spokesmen have been saying and asking for regarding policing, to see if they have been trying to create a police force that can defend the public from violence or whether they have just been seeking to weaken and weaken the police. some parties have been seeking to reduce police numbers and even to close police stations. crazy.
    it could be argued that the community has the police force they have been asking their politicians to create. if the community wants a police force that wont use force, then they have what they asked for…

  • Comrade Stalin

    Harry, it sounds to me as if the police who attended in this case were regular response cops, not the tactical units who were (and stil are) armed with plastic bullets.

    Some of the comments here do give me cause for concern. Yes, police are not supposed to take uncalculated risks and place themselves directly in the line of fire. But how can we maintain the peace if gangs of thugs, as in this case, know that any police who attend will not do anything to stop them?

  • susan

    Eranu, you completely sidestepped my question about the relevance of the Robert Hamill murder to your — and Kevin Meyers’, and apparently many others — tidy apportion of blame for questions about police conduct and response to “some politicians.” Many things you see as a cause I see as a symptom, and I’m sure neither of us have the time to get to the bottom of that.

    I don’t belong on this thread. It is pointless to participate in Slugger if you have only words of condemnation or despair — and I have no business doling out either — but I have found myself quite numb since looking at the photograph of Gina McIlveen’s expression leaving the McDaids’ after making a condolence call. Far more graphic images and encounters all the time, I know, but that one photograph just silenced me. I just don’t know what I could have to offer a discussion or debate in the face of her numb despair, I don’t.

    But in response to you, and Kevin Meyers, and others, I will leave the testimony of Robert Hamill’s sister before the US Congress in 1999. It seems impossible to me that Kevin Meyers could write what he did without considering the ongoing ordeal of the Hamill family, but I don’t know what other conclusion to draw.

    Testimony of Diane Hamill to the US Congress House International Relations Committee, 22 April 1999

    Summary

    I cannot begin this testimony without paying tribute to a woman who through her commitment to truth and justice has given me strength to carry on this campaign for justice for my brother, that lady is Rosemary Nelson. Rosemary was murdered because she dared to speak for those of us who felt we were alone without a voice. Her killers must be brought to justice and her murder investigated without influence of the RUC a police force that saw her voice as the enemy.

    I will now proceed with my testimony.

    I am black, I live in Alabama and the year is 1962. Please remember this statement as I explain what has happened to my family.

    The father of two boys and soon to become the proud father of a beautiful baby girl which he was never to hold. That was my brother Robert, a man who was refused the right to life simply because he was a Catholic. We come from Portadown in Co. Armagh in the North of Ireland. Portadown is a staunchly Loyalist town, a town in which Catholics aren’t welcome. A town in which I walk around with my whole body tensed, bracing myself for a blow from behind because they know that I belong to Robert Hamill’s family, a family who refuse to accept his murder as just one of those things that happen to Catholics in the North of Ireland.

    It was April 27th 1997. Robert was out for the night in a Catholic Social Club in the centre of Portadown, he was with two of my cousins, Siobhan and Joanne and Joanne’s husband Gregory. They left the club sometime after 1am, they telephoned for a taxi but there were none available so they decided to walk the short distance home. Their short journey took them through Portadown town centre, they walked down Thomas Street and only had to cross one street, Market Street and they would have been in Woodhouse Street, they would have been safe in their area. Anyone seen walking in this direction was easily identifiable as a Catholic. As the group walked down Thomas Street they could see a small group of young men loitering around the bottom of Thomas Street, at this time of the night they could only have been Loyalists. They hesitated as to whether they should proceed but unfortunately they saw our local police known as the RUC parked in one of their armoured landrovers at the top of Woodhouse Street, my brothers and cousins felt they would be protected by the RUC if necessary, this was not the case.

    (continued)

  • susan

    (continued from Diane Hamill’s testimony before the US CongressO

    According to my cousins, Robert and Gregory were slightly in front of Joanne and Siobhan, as Robert and Gregory stepped onto the road approximately 20 yards from the RUC, they were pulled away from the girls and beaten to the ground by up to 30 Loyalists.

    Where they were kicked repeatedly, for some reason they concentrated on Robert, we think they hit him over the head with a bottle and he was knocked unconscious straight away because my cousins say he didn’t put up any form of defence. As he lay on the ground and as the attackers jumped on his head my cousins heard them shout, “die you Fenian bastard die” and “kill him, kill him”. The attack went on for some minutes we don’t know exactly how long but we do know that four fully armed and trained police officers sat in theur armoured landrover parked some 20 yards away and didn’t intervene in any way to protect or save Robert’s life. The crowd of murderers actually got fed up as he lay unconscious and decided to stand around him, still the RUC did not intervene even to administer first aid to Robert as he lay gasping for breath. As the ambulance arrived then the RUC officers got out of their vehicle. My brother was taken to hospital where he suffered in a state of semi-consciousness for twelve days constantly prespiring, moaning in pain and thrashing around. Robert died from his head injuries on the 8th of May 1997.

    In Portadown it doesn’t appear to be a crime to beat and kick a man unconscious if he is a Catholic. This is the impression I have because nothing was done about the attack on my brother until he died. No one was arrested until he died. A crime scene was not created and evidence wasn’t gathered, thus diminishing any chances of convicting the murderers.

  • susan

    from Diane Hamill’s testimony)

    Something the RUC did do was issue conflicting press statements.

    (For RUC statements, see Robert Hamill case on the Pat Finucane Centre’s website.)

    If you look at these releases you will find them contradictory and untruthful in that they first describe a clash between rival factions, it was eleven days after the attack before they admitted that the four innocent Catholics had been set upon by a large crowd, one wonders how it took them so long. Robert died before they referred to the attack as sectarian. The RUC from day one were making desperate attempts to distance themselves from any blame for what has happened to Robert when in effect they were as much to blame as the men who viciously kicked Robert to death. The RUC has a duty to protect and serve all sections of the community in the North of Ireland, they chose not to do so on the night of April 27 1997.

    We have since spoken to a man who told us that he had left St. Patrick’s Hall some minutes before Robert and my cousins had seen the crowd of Loyalists gathering approached the RUC landrover to warn them of the potential danger for Catholics coming out of St. Patrick’s. The RUC did not warn the patrons of St. Patrick’s of the presence of between 30-50 Loyalists who on previous experience posed a significant threat to Catholics. They didn’t warn the small group of four as they walked into a fatal attack. They didn’t try to disperse the crowd that had gathered, they didn’t try to prevent the attack or intervene during the attack to assist Robert. In their press statements the RUC claim they were outnumbered, why hadn’t they foreseen the situation and had more officers on the ground, Portadown RUC Station is some 250 yards from where my brother was kicked to death.

    No one was arrested and charged until Robert lost his fight for life, five men, Stacey Bridgett, Wayne Lunt, Dean Forbes, Allistair Hanvey and Mark Hobson, were charged with murder on the 10th May. Rory Robinson was also charged the following day. Dean Forbes, Allistair Hanvey and Rory Robinson were released from person on 31st October 1997 due to lack of evidence and witnesses no longer willing to give evidence against them, according to the RUC. The judge who released them expressed sympathy with them for the ordeal they had undergone. Stacey Bridgett and Wayne Lunt were released within weeks of the first three. If the RUC had investigated as an unsectarian police force should have, this would not have happened. We had faint hope that the one remaining suspect would be convicted successfully, our hope was in vain.

  • susan

    (conclusion of Diane Hamill’s testimony)

    I never had any dealings with the RUC before the murder of my brother. I never had much of an opinion on them probably as I had spent the five years previous to Robert’s murder living in London, but since the tragic loss of Robert I have been on the receiving end of how they treat a Catholic who refuses to accept their impunity, their apparent invincibility and lack of accountability to any one except themselves.

    I have several questions I would like answered.

    Why was a crowd of up to 50 Loyalists allowed to gather in an area that is known as a flash pointy for attack on Catholics?
    Why wasn’t the management of St. Patrick’s Hall informed by the RUC of the potential danger to patrons going home?
    Why weren’t Robert and my cousins who were obviously Catholics warned and stopped from walking into a gang of murderers?
    Why did the Loyalists feel safe to get away with murder within twenty yards of four armed RUC officers in a military jeep?
    Why didn’t the RUC intervene to prevent the attack?
    Why didn’t the RUC intervene during the attack to protect Robert?
    Why didn’t the RUC fire a single bullet into the air to disperse the attackers?
    Why didn’t the RUC administer any first aid to Robert as he lay on the road gasping for life?
    Why wasn’t the crowd moved away from Robert to allow the ambulance easy access to Robert and Gregory?
    Why wasn’t anyone arrested on the night of the attack?
    Why wasn’t a crime scene created?
    Why wasn’t any forensic evidence collected?
    Why do the RUC claim that there is no video evidence when there are four banks/building societies with cameras in the area?
    Why was one of the attackers put in the jeep and them released?
    I have many more questions I would like the answers to. I don’t have enough time to go through them all.

    The cost of publicity challenging the RUC is grave. They failed in their duty to protect my brother’s life. When we asked why we have been intimidated and harassed. We have no remedy.

    I feel the RUC as it stands today issectraian and totally unacceptable in a modern society. I want a police force I can call upon when I need to but more especially I want a police force that will protect me and not leave me to be murdered because I am a Catholic.

    I am not black, I don not live in Alabama and the year is not 1962 but you tell the difference.

  • eranu

    susan im not side stepping your question. im talking about the PSNI in the present day and the state of its procedures as negotiated by politicians here, so is myers. the weak response of officers on the scene is the subject.

    The ‘no response’ by the RUC to robert hamill when he was attacked is another tragedy that we would all like answers to. I don’t think there is a single answer to explain both events. If you want to explain the ‘symptom’ you see involving both events then please do so. im certainly not going to defend anyone, just say what i think.

    you asked-

    “If politicians are to blame for poor police response, what politicans are to blame for the mob’s murderous actions, in McDaid’s murder, or Hamill’s? Or are we to blame the American makers of baseball bats, or Serbian cudgel manufacturers? ”

    i replied-
    “politicians arent to blame for the actions of a mob. but they are to blame when it comes to shaping policing. we could look back at what each party’s policing spokesmen have been saying and asking for regarding policing”

    if somebody went back through archives and media reports and pieced together what each party had been pushing for as regards policing for the last 15 years, and what changes had been implemented according to each party’s wishes, then we might see who has shaped what as regards police procedure. i doubt it would be possible to pin something to one specific politician though. my point was regarding politicians shaping how police function, which is what myers was also saying.

  • QC Biggins

    Susan can you please keep your posts shorter and stop spamming this thread.

    Next you will be selling \/iAgrA

  • Big Maggie

    QC Biggins,

    Susan’s posts are fine as far as I’m concerned. I learned much from them.

    Did you not find them informative? Perhaps they touched a raw nerve somewhere but that’s hardly Susan’s fault.

    The Hamill case is one of the most disgraceful on record. The foul murder by a Unionist mob was bad enough; the inaction and later dissembling by the RUC must blacken their already tarnished reputation for ever.

  • Driftwood

    Big maggie
    The person who murdered Joanne Mathers (because she was a protestant) sits in government at Stormont.
    Someone earlier this month posted the lyrics of Leonard Cohens “everybody knows”. So it goes…

  • Driftwood

    Big Maggie: For the record-
    Tuesday 7 April 1981
    Joanne Mathers (29), a Protestant civilian who was acting as a census enumerator, was shot dead in the Gobnascale area of Derry, while she was collecting census returns. Republican paramilitaries were responsible for the killing.

    Sectarianism cuts both ways ya know.

    No public enquiry, No US Congress involvement, NOTHING. just another dead prod, why bother?

  • Big Maggie

    Driftwood,

    The issue here is not murder by one or two people. Such things regrettably happen every hour of the day somewhere in the world.

    The issue is the beating to death by a Unionist mob of a defenceless Nationalist, and grievous assault on two others, one of whom was a pregnant woman.

    Another issue, yet to be resolved, is the role the police played while Kevin McDaid was so savagely murdered.

    The first issue is important because it’s by no means the first time that a Nationalist was murdered by a Unionist mob. Susan reminds us very tellingly about the Hamill case, which at this late stage has not been addressed with any degree of openness and a respect for justice.

    QC Biggins took exception to be being reminded of it. One wonders why. Any theories?

  • Big Maggie

    Driftwood,

    Silly me, almost forgot to ask: who murdered Joanne Mathers and are you certain s/he sits in Stormont?

    You’ve gone to the police about this of course?

  • Dave

    “die you Fenian bastard die”

    “Fenian” is a political designation, so it was members of one nation attacking members of another nation as part of a continuing dispute over national rights. That’s not the same thing as sectarianism – nor is it the ‘racism’ that Diane Hamill presents it as being.

    Likewise, Mr McDaid was killed in a dispute over symbols of nations and national territory, making his murder political, not sectarian.

    It is a political act for one nation to fly its national flag on another nation’s territory with the intent of claiming that territory as one’s own. The two nations formally agreed that Northern Ireland is Her Majesty’s sovereign territory when they both signed the GFA. It is therefore highly provocative to British nationalists to claim their territory as one’s own and it is improper to dishonour the terms of the agreement under which socially-ameliorating compromises for the other nation were agreed. It is right and proper, however, than British flags should fly on sovereign British territory.

    That is what the Irish nationalists in Northern Ireland signed up to. Instead of honouring their agreement, they seek to portray British national symbols as sectarian as an expedient to censor them and they use the Irish flag as part of their duplicitous strategy.

  • Driftwood

    Big Maggie
    as CAIN says:

    Republican paramilitaries were responsible for the killing.

    No-one was ever convicted of her murder, so it would be inappropriate to name, as Susan did, in her MOPEfest above, the suspect(s). Because, like the people named in Susans transcript to the US Congress, they are completely innocent unless proven guilty. maybe the HET will investigate, but I doubt it. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

  • can i ask a stoopid question

    “Their short journey took them through Portadown town centre, they walked down Thomas Street and only had to cross one street, Market Street and they would have been in Woodhouse Street, they would have been safe in their area. Anyone seen walking in this direction was easily identifiable as a Catholic. As the group walked down Thomas Street they could see a small group of young men loitering around the bottom of Thomas Street, at this time of the night they could only have been Loyalists.”

    When they saw the mob why did they try to walk though it ?

  • QC Biggins

    “Why weren’t Robert and my cousins who were obviously Catholics warned and stopped from walking into a gang of murderers?”

    how can someone be *obviously* catholic unless they are a priest/nun etc etc ????

    “warned and stopped from walking into a gang of murderers?”

    “a gang of murderers” dont wear speech bubbles or sandwich boards proclaiming “murderous gang”….sounds like something from Monty Pythons Life of Brian.

    Every weekend gangs form all over the world…how pray tell can any police force predict which ones are going to kill someone ???

    If I saw a “gang of murderers?” I don’t think I would need to take police advice not to walk through them…would you ?

  • james

    When they saw the mob why did they try to walk though it ?

    I would presume that the presence of the Police would have given them some sense of security.

    Clearly not!

  • QC Biggins

    “I would presume that the presence of the Police would have given them some sense of security.

    Clearly not! ”

    I concur with my learned friend, clearly not indeed !

  • Driftwood

    Big Maggie
    The person responsible for the sectarian murder of Joanne Mathers was the commander of PIRA in Londonderry in the 70’s and early 80’s. Of course we don’t know who that was.
    Can you think of a minister at Stormont who might be able to shed light? Public enquiry? No chance, and for ‘good’ reason.

    submit word here- local, hmmm

  • Big Maggie

    Driftwood,

    “No-one was ever convicted of her murder, so it would be inappropriate to name, as Susan did, in her MOPEfest above, the suspect(s).”

    I see. Then why did you even bring the matter up?

    Susan’s “MOPEfest” was quite appropriate as it had a distinct bearing on the McDaid case, featuring as it did yet another innocent Nationalist beaten to death by a Unionist mob.

    I fail to see how the murder you allude to has any bearing. Or does your comment fall within the category of whataboutery?

    Dear me, I’m beginning to think that certain Unionists on Slugger are not at all pleased with their fellow-Unionists being in the spotlight yet again for all the wrong reasons.

    Here’s a tip for them: your keyboard skills would be better employed in voicing your horror and sadness at the frightful murder of Kevin McDaid than playing whatabout games. The more you do the latter the weaker your position becomes and the more Unionism will be despised worldwide.

    QC Biggins,

    I cannot for the life of me understand why you find the savage murder of Robert Hamill a source of amusement. Shameful, but hey, I’m growing used to the ways of Unionism.

  • guillaume

    “Fenian” is a political designation, so it was members of one nation attacking members of another nation as part of a continuing dispute over national rights. That’s not the same thing as sectarianism – nor is it the ‘racism’ that Diane Hamill presents it as being.”-Dave.

    -Your Roy Keane Syndrome is getting worse.Go see a doctor and don’t forget to pay him lots of money for placebos.

    and so what did the Irish government sign up for? and now that the tiger is dead what will they regret?

  • Driftwood

    Big Maggie
    Are you saying that those suspects mentioned in the Congressional hearing are guilty of any offence? They are innocent. Just like the PIRA commander in Londonderry when Joanne was murdered (for being a Protestant). Why was Susan allowed to bring up the names of blameless individuals.
    Of course the fact that Joanne Mathers was a prod, in your mentality, is no big deal. In your world I bet your thinking she probably ‘deserved it’.
    Any ideas on who the PIRA commander who shot Joanne might be?

  • Big Maggie

    Driftwood,

    You brought the matter up not me. I don’t know why you even reference Susan Mathers’s murder. And no, I don’t know who murdered her in 1981.

    Any thoughts on Coleraine in 2009?

  • Big Maggie

    Susan = Joanne, of course!

  • Big Maggie

    Pete,

    Thanks for deleting those rogue posts!

  • Driftwood

    I brought it up because Susan referenced the Robert Hamill murder. Her point being, presumably, it was/is all 1 way traffic in NI. In her quoted testimony (by Robert Hamills wife) to Congress various individuals were mentioned who have never been convicted of any offence. Susan- I presume- thinks they are guilty as hell -even if found innocent- but lacks the moral courage to say so.
    She obviously couldn’t give a toss about the many innocents (non catholic) who were murdered because of their religion by SF/PIRA, and their L/derry leadership at that time. Selective condemnation is abhorrent. Mobs or hit squads, the end result is misery. The fact that Susan thinks Joanne Mathers a ‘legitimate’ target is immaterial.

  • susan

    Whoever the moderator, I agree, Maggie, it was gallantly done.

    Maggie, I am sorry to see you taking abuse for defending me for posting Diane Hamill’s testimony. As Myers’ thesis is that the PSNI of today is “emasculated” and by extension less able defenders of law and order and innocent civilians than the pre-Patten RUC, I thought it relevant to present the experience and perspective of a bereaved family member of a murdered man whose murder, 1997, well before the changes in policing, most closely mirrors the terrible loss the McDaids’ have endured this week.

    I would not presume to speak for a victim of violence or their next of kin, nor would I encourage any grieving family member or recovering victim of violence to subject themselves to the rough and tumble of Slugger.

    Posting Diane Hamill’s perspective in her own words seemed a relevant compromise in a discussion of policing, pre and post-Patten. Criticism for including it here should be directed at me, not at the Hamill sisters, or at Maggie.

    Any theory is worth the testing. The Hamills’ experience is not the only or last word on the efficacy or pre-Patten policing, but it is not and never could be irrelevant to this duscssion, nor will it ever be forgotten.

  • susan

    Driftwood, Diane Hamill is Robert Hamill’s sister, not his wife.

    Driftwood, what a crap statement. Your bias is transparent. I don’t remember you attacking me when I lit into commenters here for posting cruel or callous remarks about Paul Quinn or the Disappeared.

    How many unionists do you know who have lost family members to loyalist violence? How many nationalists and republicans do you know who have lost family members to republican violence? How can you extrapolate that because someone cares about the murder of Kevin McDaid and Robert Hamill, they do not care about other victims of violence? Scores of unionist posters here are appalled by the murder of McDaid, and the circumstances of Robert Hamill’s murder, just as scores of nationalists and republicans were appalled in March by the murder of Stephen Carroll and the squaddies.

    The world is a hard enough place, but not as hard as you’re posturing it is.

    What’s up with that?

  • susan

    Maggie, I have to go now. I appreciated your support.

  • Driftwood

    Susan
    fair enough, but you sidesstepped Joanne Mathers murder, possibly because you know (like most people here) who ordered it.
    Bit ‘difficult’ isn’t it?

    Your other points are correct.
    Except that you avoid intra nationalist and intra loyalist feuds, usually drug related. Don’t remember your posts. Noticed you couldn’t remember the names of the squaddies, but don’t worry. neither does the MoD.
    So it goes…

  • Dave

    “The Hamills’ experience is not the only or last word on the efficacy or pre-Patten policing, but it is not and never could be irrelevant to this discussion, nor will it ever be forgotten.”

    It’s a weak refutation of Myer’s argument to say that emasculation of the police has nothing to do with why the two police officers did not intervene post-emasculation because two police officers did not intervene in a different case pre-emasculation.

    The subtext, apart from being apologist, is that the two police officers did not intervene because they are supporters of loyalist mobs. How will you hold to that subtext if it transpires that the two police officers are part of the 27% of the PSNI who are now catholic? I suppose you will quietly drop it.

    It is far more likely to be the case that the police did not intervene because they were under orders from their superiors to regard loyalists as “community workers” as a result of the expedient political arrangements and that is also likely to be why there was a light police presence in the area. When is a loyalist gang not a criminal element? When the politicians call them “community workers.” That expediency, after all, is what allowed the members of another murder gang to be entertained as ‘legitimate’ politicians.

    Still, these political murders will continue because the underlying dynamics have not been resolved. While the Shinners signed up to the legitimacy of British rule and British sovereignty, they did so by telling the muppets that they were securing their national rights rather than surrendering them. Ergo, the muppets still act like they are flying the Irish national flag (a flag they have continually disgraced and never been loyal to) on Irish soil rather than on British soil.

  • Pig Baggie

    Some might argue “Why didn’t the Hamills re-route instead of insisting walking though a loyalist area where they were not welcome.”, me Im just a bigot who sees the world though my blood stained devious monacle.

    All the while I’m content to forget the butchering at Darkley, La Mon, Teebane, Enniskillen , Kingsmills, Bloody Friday, Tullyvallen, Shankill etc etc etc, not an inquiry into ONE of these atrocoties.

    But I suppose they were only prods, so why bother ?

  • Big Maggie

    Susan,

    “Maggie, I am sorry to see you taking abuse for defending me for posting Diane Hamill’s testimony.”

    No worries, girl. I’d expected nothing less. I’m surprised the whataboutists didn’t trawl the 17th century for their whataboutery. These are not good days for Unionism.

    Pig Baggie,

    “me Im just a bigot”

    At least you’re honest about it. Unlike others here who devise truly Byzantine, disingenuous arguments to avoid looking too hard into the Unionist soul.

  • Pig Maggie

    “I’m surprised the whataboutists didn’t trawl the 17th century for their whataboutery.”

    That sums up my attitude to the loss of life at Darkley, La Mon, Teebane, Enniskillen , Kingsmills, Bloody Friday, Tullyvallen and the Shankill.

    Soon us brits will have been in Ireland for a millenium :O

    These are not good days for Unionism

    Personally I think these are the best days, the IRA Surrendered, the south surrendered its illegal claim to this part of the UK, and the union has been strengthened.

    In the end of the day people like Maggie will have to learn to accomodate other traditions in Ireland, as the unionists are going no where 🙂

    ““Maggie, I am sorry to see you taking abuse for defending me for posting Diane Hamill’s testimony.”

    if you want a thread about robt hamill ask the moderator to start one, and stop filling this thread with long-winded pages of inane off-topic drivel please.

  • Fr. Pat McGroin

    They were Protestant heretics.

  • Big Maggie

    “if you want a thread about robt hamill ask the moderator to start one, and stop filling this thread with long-winded pages of inane off-topic drivel please.”

    As opposed to filling every thread with whataboutery. The correspondences between the McDaid and Hamill murders are frightening.

    No, bad days for Unionists, and boy don’t they know it!

  • Pig Maggie

    “The correspondences between the McDaid and Hamill murders are frightening.”

    correspondences ?? penpals are they ?

    No, bad days for Unionists, and boy don’t they know it!

    Why is it ???? did unionists do something wrong ????? please explain yourself ???

  • Big Maggie

    “correspondences ?? penpals are they ?”

    Your bigotry is only exceeded by your pig-ignorance. Hint: a dictionary will cost you no more than the price of six-pack :^)

    Any thoughts on the topic?

  • Dictionary Corner

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Correspondences

    “Communication by the exchange of letters”

    Any thoughts on the topic?

    [Keep it civil – edited moderator]

  • Dictionary Corner

    “Hint: a dictionary will cost you no more than the price of six-pack :^)”

    What is six-pack ?

    maybe you want to correct that sentence ??

    Anyways bad days for nationalists, and boy don’t they know it!

    1) Murder of policeman and two soldiers
    2) Murder of Paul Quinn

    And if you want to talk about mobs

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/killer-gang-link-to-attack-on-candidate-1756659.html

    Any thoughts on the topic?

  • Big Maggie

    From the same page but further down:

    5. correspondence – similarity by virtue of corresponding

    Mouse Scrolling for Dummies

  • Pig Maggie

    “Mouse Scrolling for Dummies”

    What has Microsoft Outlook Email Client got to do with anything ??

    I noticed you evaded my questions Maggie

    Anyways bad days for nationalists, and boy don’t they know it!

    1) Murder of policeman and two soldiers
    2) Murder of Paul Quinn
    3) Recent Report on Priests preying on children

    And if you want to talk about mobs

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/killer-gang-link-to-attack-on-candidate-1756659.html

    Any thoughts on the topic? and please keep it on topic.

  • the observer

    Oh no, maggie has went very quiet all of a sudden :S

    I wonder why ???????????

    she must be speechless ?

  • susan

    Driftwood, I understand and appreciate the points you are making in your last post to me, and I thank you for them. If it means anything to you, yes, I think the murder of Joanne Mathers was both deeply wrong and sectarian.

    Dave, you are entitled to any points and opinions you make in this forum, and clearly you have lots of time to make them. I’ve overheard young teenage male virgins offer trot out some interesting theories about female sexual response, and I do not argue with them, either. For example, your theory that “Fenian bastard” — or “Fenian slut” or “Orange bastard” for that matter is not sectarian may make sense only if you isolate the dictionary definition from the contexts in which those words are sometimes used. It is your theory and I expect you to keep plugging it.

    I must take issue, though, with your arrogance and error in the “subtext” you take upo yourself to attribute to to me — “the two police officers did not intervene because they are supporters of loyalist mobs.” I did not say that, I did not imply it, I do not think it. We are contrasting RUC response and PSNI response to two similar murders, one in 2009, one in 1997. There are awful similarities, but also important differences.

    The McDaid family themselves thanked the police that administered CPR to Kevin as he lay dying, or dead. When Robert Hamill was murdered there were four heavily armed RUC men in a Land Rover. They did not attempt to administer CPR or otherwise save Robert’s life, they did not treat the scene as a crime scene for collection of evidence, etc. ETc. Etc.

    There were only two on the scene when Kevin McDaid was killed. Mr McDaid’s family that were eyewitnesses to the attack have asked why there was not a stronger police presence on scene given the tensions and circumstances, and Chris Donnelly has asked that question and others deserving answers ably and well on his threads.

    I too would like to know why there wasn’t a stronger police presence. I would like to know why the officers who were on hand did not fire a warning shot — do they have discretion, is that part of their training, etc. I am waiting for answers to come out — I do not hae them.

    But I would expect, regardless of their religion or lack thereof, I would expect — and this in turn is only my expectation and theory, I don’t know them — but I would expect the two police on scene are completely cut up that Kevin McDaid is dead, and my own theory is that two police on seen are also victims of the official and unofficial “softly, softly” approach to loyalism, as of course are the bereaved McDaid family.