Loyalist paramilitary threat against murder victim’s son in Coleraine

The PSNI have confirmed that they are investigating a threat issued by loyalist paramilitaries against a son of loyalist murder victim, Kevin McDaid. Sinn Fein councillor, Billy Leonard, has asked the PSNI to reveal which loyalist outfit was responsible for the threat. The threat comes less than 24 hours after Assistant Chief Constable, Alistair Finlay, brushed aside allegations that loyalist paramilitaries were involved in the killing. Tension has also risen in the area ahead of a planned loyalist band parade in the area on Friday night, which is the subject of a Parades Commission review. Church of Ireland Bishop of Derry and Raphoe, Ken Goode, has called on the organisers to postpone the parade.

  • Driftwood

    Mark Langhammer…
    Christ, that should pack ’em in.

    Public Sector Union waffle and trite cliches a go go.
    Was no-one else ‘available’.

  • Big Maggie

    Dread Cthulhu,

    It’s nothing to do with being offended. The band ought to show some respect to the deceased and his grieving family.

    It’s not much to ask, is it? Is it?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Big Maggie: “It’s nothing to do with being offended. The band ought to show some respect to the deceased and his grieving family. ”

    I seem to recall reading that the parade will be avoiding the family’s domus. Given whose giving the parade, that *is* a major concession, sad to say.

    You’re conflating two events that are only tangentially related. This parade, as distasteful as it may be, has no relationship to this act of violence. I’m looking at it from a position of principle — the rights to march, freely associate and free speech should not be infringed, with reasonable limitation (Yelling movie in a firehouse, incitement to riot, etc.).

    Besides, to borrow a unionist or loyalist lens, why is the Republican answer to any conflict *always* “cancel a parade?” Especially in light of Republican intransigence where illegal memorials, parades and the like are concerned?

    It is unreasonable for one “side” to expect something that they themselves are unwilling to provide.

    Besides, as a matter of civil rights, the right to make a fool of oneself is pretty much guaranteed, within certain tolerances.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    I will not be blogging on any more Chris Donnelly threads because he allows other members to blog as me on his threads, plus other stuff.

  • Big Maggie

    Dread Cthulhu,

    “This parade, as distasteful as it may be, has no relationship to this act of violence.”

    I’m sure you’re right, it’s just that I find their Bebo page a little off-putting:

    Up the P.O.T.B

    the Pride of the bann is the best band in Ulster !!! up da U.D.A

    “Besides, to borrow a unionist or loyalist lens, why is the Republican answer to any conflict *always* “cancel a parade?”

    I hope you don’t think I’m a Republican! Anyhow, I’m suggesting they postpone not cancel.

    Is that really too much to ask?

  • New Blue

    Sammy

    # 19 previous page

    “I dont like your analysis because it can be seen as an attempt to hide behind the great unwashed.”

    If you can reference my other posts on this matter you will see that what I am proposing is anything but that.

    I agree that for too long politicians have hung to the coattails of exclusionist organisations, whilst themselves largely ignoring the growing issues of deprevation, poverty and exclusion amongst large areas of the people they expect to vote for them.

    That has to change is we want to move forward.

    My point is Sammy, we need to really pull out the stops to ensure that the kids coming through the processess which caused the earlier example are given support, opportunity and self confidence not to need to embrace the sellers of hatred to feel like they belong

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Big Maggie: “I hope you don’t think I’m a Republican! Anyhow, I’m suggesting they postpone not cancel.

    Is that really too much to ask? ”

    You can ask for anything — its good to want. The problem is is that other folks have their own wants that may conflict, tangentially or directly, with your wants. What I am saying is that balancing those wants as best we can is the only way forward.

    The compromise, such as the band offered, hate to say, is more than I expected and, considering the source, a decent middle ground.

    As for the rest, like I said, I was borrowing a unionist/loyalist lens. However, the point still stands — the knee-jerk nationalist / republican response is to cancel a parade, despite their general lack of urgency when it comes to illegal republican memorials and parades.

    What is really needed are politicians on both sides who are worthy of the people’s trust and a police force that doesn’t have to look over their shoulders as their political masters kow-tow to the hard men and the godfathers of the back-alleys.

  • Paul

    Dread

    Whens the last time the IRA paraded down the Shankhill?

  • Big Maggie

    Dread Cthulhu,

    “The compromise, such as the band offered, hate to say, is more than I expected and, considering the source, a decent middle ground.”

    Are you saying the band aren’t a group of decent, upstanding men? Surely not!

  • Bill

    Big Maggie, are you saying that you know the people in the band and that they definitely are not ‘decent, upstanding men?

  • Brian MacAodh

    What is the fucking deal with marching, anyway?
    Only in Nazi Germany did people spend so much time and eneergy into marching around for no reason (other than to piss off others or show dominance, i guess)

  • Brian MacAodh

    And before someone says otherwise, I am not saying that those marching are on par with nazi’s.

    I just couldn’t think of any other culture/society where marching is such a big deal.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Big Maggie: “Are you saying the band aren’t a group of decent, upstanding men? Surely not! ”

    T’is the cynic in me.

    Brian MacAodh: “Only in Nazi Germany did people spend so much time and eneergy into marching around for no reason (other than to piss off others or show dominance, i guess) ”

    Depends on where you are — there’s a great many parades in other countries that pass un-noticed, mainly because no one is out there throwing rocks at one another over the parade. Soviets used to have a lot of rallies and parades — they never had LR to orchestrate and film them for posterity.

    Public assemblies are, last I checked, something of a right. Being unpleasant is not yet illegal. Ergo, the band can march.

    Besides, if they’re out walking and playing music, you at least know where they are for the day.

  • Bill

    Brian MacAodh, how about the culture of Marching Bands in the USA? It may not be your thing but there are many more reasons for people (male and female) becoming involved in bands than the two very negative options that you offer.

    Not every person in or connected to a band is a ‘knuckle dragging neanderthal’. Many are indeed decent, upstanding people.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    bill: “how about the culture of Marching Bands in the USA? It may not be your thing but there are many more reasons for people (male and female) becoming involved in bands than the two very negative options that you offer.”

    Mayhap, but the band under discussion at the moment isn’t exactly the local high school marching band or the area fife and drum corps.

    That said, any organization, so long as the abide by the bureaucratic procedures and requirements, should have the right to march, so long as their activities are restrained to no worse than making fools of themselves, as opposed to inciting violence or otherwise breaking the law.

  • Dave

    After reading this thread, I’m a little confused about what the working definition of a loyalist is. Since most definitions arise from the context in which the word is used, it’s fair to define a loyalist in Northern Ireland as someone who is engaged in paramilitary activity for political purposes. In general use, it means anyone who is loyal to the Crown. In Ireland, it has a historical meaning of opposition to the right to self-determination for the Irish nation.

    Lofty differentiates between loyalists and loyalist paramilitaries and also differentiates between loyalist paramilitaries and the “UDA organisationally or individually.” This may be self-serving obfuscation on his part (assuming he is a UDA member) or it might mean that loyalism has another synonym that is overlooked in popular use of the term. So what is a loyalist in Northern Ireland if not a militant or someone identified with that culture?

    Doctor Who says that all loyalists are unionists, but is that true? No, a unionist is someone who supports the union between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, so this doesn’t include those loyalists who are loyal to Ulster and not the union or the Crown (quite a large number of them). Ian Paisley, I suspect, is much closer to being a loyalist than he is to being a unionist. I wonder how many of DUP supporters are of a similar mindset? If loyalism can be redefined as loyalty to Ulster then there are probably a great number of loyalists who are not militants.

    It seems that loyalists, as currently defined, are a non-people in the eyes of unionists. A cynic might see this as an attempt to distance their community from the use of violence for political purposes, thereby allowing them to denounce republicans from a higher ground than the ground that is soaked with catholic blood that has been spilled in defence of their approved political objectives. Loyalists would probably see it that way too.

    Lofty probably sees it as an attack on working class protestants. But that depends on what the synonym of loyalist is used. Are working class protestants and loyalists the same thing to any sustainable degree or is that an offence to working class protestants and the result of cynical attempts by loyalist gangster to exploit working class protestants for their own selfish purposes? Community activists (loyalists) are well-paid by the state, after all, and the godfathers are well-protected by it.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    dave: “It seems that loyalists, as currently defined, are a non-people in the eyes of unionists. A cynic might see this as an attempt to distance their community from the use of violence for political purposes, thereby allowing them to denounce republicans from a higher ground than the ground that is soaked with catholic blood that has been spilled in defence of their approved political objectives. Loyalists would probably see it that way too.”

    To quote meself, from another thread…

    “Loyalist paramilitaries are to Unionists what mopeds and lasses of easy virtue are to young men—Sure, Unionism made use of them, but wouldn’t want to be seen in polite society with them. In this one matter, I think SF and, to a lesser degree, PUP took the smarter road—sufficient overlap / contact that the hard men don’t find themselves out in the cold, at least in the main.”

    In a sense, Loyalists are the “useful idiots” of Unionism — bastard children capable of doing the dirty work, but not really fit for taking out to a restaurant where you don’t have to unwrap the food.

  • Bill

    Dread Cthulhu, they may not be exactly the same as local high school marching band or the area fife and drum corps, but in many places across Northern Ireland they are every bit as important.

    I am not meaning to suggest that you did this (because you didn’t!), but it is too easy for people to point the finger and say ‘oh look at those terrible band men’. There are lots of realised and potential benefits to young people, and young men especially, being involved in bands that people too often don’t want to recognise.

  • Doctor Who

    Dave

    “Doctor Who says that all loyalists are unionists,”

    Interesting post Dave, but just to clarify I said all loyalists are unionists (in the broader use of that term) but not all unionists are loyalists.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    bill: “they may not be exactly the same as local high school marching band or the area fife and drum corps, but in many places across Northern Ireland they are every bit as important.”

    Sure… but while the high school marching band claims allegiance to the local high school and the fife and drum unit associates with the local historical recreational / education group, the specific band in question makes common cause with the UDA. Not quite the same. As I stated elsewhere, it shouldn’t mean they can’t march, however.

    bill: “but it is too easy for people to point the finger and say ‘oh look at those terrible band men’. There are lots of realised and potential benefits to young people, and young men especially, being involved in bands that people too often don’t want to recognise. ”

    In one sense, I am utterly apathetic to whether or not these are “terrible men” or not. To grab relatively neutral examples from the US, both the Shriners and the Klu Klux Klan have access to the public roads for their marchers.

    And I agree that there is potential good in band membership — exposure to positive role models… although the UDA connection leaves me a bit cold.

    For the record, I wouldn’t be making a different argument for a band associated with any of the four letter alphabet soup gangs than I am for one associated with the three letter groups.

    Believing in civil rights occasionally means supporting uncivil groups.

  • Big Maggie

    Bill,

    “Big Maggie, are you saying that you know the people in the band and that they definitely are not ‘decent, upstanding men?”

    No. Please read my comment again.

    Dread Cthulhu,

    “Besides, if they’re out walking and playing music, you at least know where they are for the day.”

    LOL!

  • We all see the purple trees

    PRIDE OF THE BANN

    P.O.T.B

    LOYALIST COLERAINE

    31 YEARS AND STILL GOING STRONG

    U.D.A U.F.F U.Y.M.
    ………………………………..

    “These people are a disgrace and look like never changing. ”

    Why Should they,

    Nationalists ask loyalists to accept republicans as equals, so why can’t nationalists accept loyalists as equals also ???

    Its also a pity the police couldn’t get such a quick response in the all-but-forgotten case of young Paul Quinn. It surely wasn’t anything to do with lack of co-operation from the locals….or was it ????

  • Big Maggie

    And since that differentiation between Loyalist and Unionist is once again under discussion, I asked this question somewhere or other:

    If they’re two different animals as some insist, where does a Loyalist end and a Unionist begin? Or vice versa.

    It’s a tough one I know :^)

  • fin

    Purple trees, Quinn’s murder was not sectarian and didn’t occur in NI or even the UK. Can you give us a better example?

  • Paul

    Fin

    Not to mention it wasn’t conducted on a public thouroughfare with in full view of the inactive police farce

  • Bill

    Big Maggie, ‘Where does a Loyalist end and Unionist begin?’ assumes that there is no overlap and there is. It’s no more reasonable than asking ‘Where does New Labour end and the Conservatives begin?’

    Each of these ideologies, parties or whatever term is used clearly overlap but there are distinctions too.

  • New Blue

    Bill

    New Labour ends next election.

    Funnily enough Conservatives are here to stay.

    (couldn’t resist it)

  • Bill

    [i]New Labour ends next election.

    Funnily enough Conservatives are here to stay.

    (couldn’t resist it) [/i]

    Not quite my point as I am sure you understand but…..LOL!!!

  • Big Maggie

    Bill,

    “Each of these ideologies, parties or whatever term is used clearly overlap but there are distinctions too.”

    Well… I’m waiting.

    Don’t keep a girl in suspense :^)

  • Brian MacAodh

    “Brian MacAodh, how about the culture of Marching Bands in the USA? It may not be your thing but there are many more reasons for people (male and female) becoming involved in bands than the two very negative options that you offer.”

    I have lived in the USA for most of my life now. the only marching bands to speak of are for College (american) Football teams (or high school). They march around on the field at halftime, thats about it. No one pays them any mind. Other than that, there is the big Thanksgiving Day parade in NY, and various St Paddys day parades. Thats about it. Nothing offensive, other than drunks wandering around.

    If doesn’t make sense to me. In NI marches are done in such a way, or at least had been until very recently, to piss off and aggravate the other segment of the community as much as possible. As long as each tribe has their own triumphal or defiant traditions that reinforce sectarianism, it’s not going anywhere fast

  • Joe

    Just heard news sounds like the coleriane uda to me

  • loftholdingswood

    I see differences in Loyalism (as I define it) and Unionism (as it is defined to me by others) in the same way that there is a clear distinction between Morality and personal ethics. I know ethical UDA men who are immoral based on society’s standards. I know moral Unionists who have proved to me by their actions that they have no ethics.

    If you study the principal of chaos theory you can see in people the life choices that they make that alters their world view but changes nothing. You then watch someone do something in life that shapes the world but does not change them as they perceive their world view. John Gregg explored the possibilities of chaos theory (although he had no conscious knowledge of its existence or possibility) when he wondered aloud in a television interview what life would have been like if his bullet had killed Gerry Adams and not just injured him. There is a short story by Kim Stanley Robinson called ‘The Lucky Strike’ where he deals with the concept of chaos theory that could have altered the world during World War 2. But I digress.

    What I am trying to say is that the moral outrage that now exists in politicians and government officials is spurious because in private they need sectarian hatred to further their own ideological beliefs. Mr McDaid means nothing to them. The immoral are preaching to the immoral about morality yet need immorality to exist for them to have a sense of worth.

  • Doctor Who

    big maggie to dread c

    “I hope you don’t think I’m a Republican! Anyhow, I’m suggesting they postpone not cancel.”

    You seem quite able to seperate republican from nationalist and rightly so, why then do you find it difficult to seperate unionist from loyalist.

  • Big Maggie

    Brian MacAodh,

    It’s plain to see you’ve lived in the USA most of your life. Your terminology is all wrong.

    Here in Ulster we don’t use the term “marching” except when referring to the Marching Season, which begins at the sound of the first cuckoo and ends at Michaelmas—or so I’m told.

    The “marches” you reference are in fact “parades”. This is to assure they’re not confused with military marches, which could be construed as threatening. “Parade” sounds jolly and lots of fun, doesn’t it? You see high-stepping majorettes and floats; we see dour bowler-hatted men who should know better, accompanied by lads who do not own a jacket. But don’t get me started.

    Oh my God, I just realized we’re discussing Unionist marches in Ulster! This must be a first on Slugger O’Toole.

    But that’s OK. I doubt if there’s mileage in this. Who’d wish to comment on something so trivial?

    BTW (not aimed at USA) are there any developments on the Unionist threat to Ryan McDaid?

  • Big Maggie

    Doctor Who,

    “You seem quite able to seperate republican from nationalist and rightly so, why then do you find it difficult to seperate unionist from loyalist.”

    I can quite easily separate Republican from Nationalist—in my case. I’m a Nationalist but no Republican. I’m quite happy being part of the Union (wasn’t that a song?). I do not long for a united Ireland. The Irish have enough problems to be going on with without reuniting with the missing six counties.

    Ireland will be united. Perhaps not in my lifetime—I’m in my 60s now—but before too long. I wish them well. For the time being, though, I see nothing wrong with NI being part of the UK. If only the Unionists would behave themselves, stop denying the misdeeds of the past, and continue to reach out to their Nationalist fellow-provincials.

    Wouldn’t life be grand for all of us then?

  • LURIG

    The UDA is still being run as a paramilitary group in the 6 counties. While it probably doesn’t have the central control of the Provos the fact is that the UPRG and others seek to speak on the UDA’s behalf so should Jackie McDonald NOT be publically making a statement? Either he has control and discipline over his members or he doesn’t! Many of those in court today as the accused or supporters have well known UDA connections so let’s not kid ourselves the UDA was NOT involved. It is imperative that the Executive collectively makes a statement on Loyalist paramilitaries, their failure to decommission and their continual involvement in sectarianism, criminality and extortion. The hypocrisy and double standards between the 2 governments, and the media’s, stance on Loyalism and Republicanism is stark and glaring. As a Nationalist I state that Sinn Fein’s failure to address Loyalist criminality and hate crime as one of the reasons I will not vote for them next week. I am sick to the back teeth at the victims of Loyalist death squads, and their long suffering families, being viewed as less important than others. I also want to know will the trade union movement condemn these crimes with the same speed and ferocity they did of the 2 soldiers and policeman? Heirarchy of victims? It’s obvious there is!

  • An Lorgain

    [i]Why Should they,

    Nationalists ask loyalists to accept republicans as equals, so why can’t nationalists accept loyalists as equals also ???

    Its also a pity the police couldn’t get such a quick response in the all-but-forgotten case of young Paul Quinn. It surely wasn’t anything to do with lack of co-operation from the locals….or was it ????[/i]

    Yeah they should continue to kick innocent people to death while chanting UDA, then parade around the town chanting UDA. You should stick with the whataboutery.
    Loyalism has changed very little and until they do we will see more blood on our streets, I won’t hold my breath waiting on change (14 years later and they still hate catholics enough to beat them to death)
    The core of thier so called culture breeds hatred.

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    “The immoral are preaching to the immoral about morality yet need immorality to exist for them to have a sense of worth.”

    ….and sums up all politics (and religion) etc… within society, (even though morality itself can be relative).

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Brian MacAodh: “I have lived in the USA for most of my life now. the only marching bands to speak of are for College (american) Football teams (or high school).”

    Then you need to get out a wee bit more… there are fife and drum corps, pipe bands and any number of other bands what march in parades in the states.

    LHW: “I see differences in Loyalism (as I define it) and Unionism (as it is defined to me by others) in the same way that there is a clear distinction between Morality and personal ethics. I know ethical UDA men who are immoral based on society’s standards.”

    Situational ethics, or “Why a felony isn’t really a crime when it’s commited by us’n.”

  • dub

    Big Maggie,

    How on earth is it advantageous for you and your family to live in a statelet dripping in union jackery and bigotry where children should never ever be reared because it is a society underpinned by sectarianism. Can you not see that the union with britain has supported this sectarian system militarily and financially? why is is that dave cameron can talk about rowing back on the gfa, abolishing power sharing and the human rights bill for ni but not comment on racist militiamen helping the tory campaign, nor seek to comment upon this lynching which has been carried out by the same racist militia with the support of local supremacist politicians and the local police force who instead of protecting those threatened by the local racist militia, negoatiated with them and facilitated their crime?? you think the london govt is some kind of federal us govt gonna reform the racist backwater?? think again.

    no matter how banjaxed the economy is down here nothing i repeat nothing would entice any sane person to move person and family up there. you may not have notice that young people have a lot more career opportunities down here, wages are higher and our government does not murder people, sponsor death squads or commit acts of terrorism in foreign cities.

    your attitude is remarkable.

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    “How on earth is it advantageous for you and your family to live in a statelet …….”

    The drink is cheaper?

  • Big Maggie

    dub,

    Thanks for questioning my sanity :^)

    Since you ask, our children are all grown up and several have kids of their own, none of whom live in the North. We only have one daughter still living with us. Also, my husband gets a lot more money here than down South. We made many good friends up here too. Don’t run the place down too much.