Wall of silence about 60 years of child abuse still not entirely broken down

Partial new version. Anger and barracking reminiscent of the launch of Eames Bradley greeted the long awaited unveiling.

“The little comfort we have is the knowledge that it vindicated the victims who were raped and sexually abused,” said Mr Walsh, of the leading campaign group Irish Survivors of Child Abuse (Soca). I’m very angry, very bitter, and feel cheated and deceived. I would have never opened my wounds if I’d known this was going to be the end result.”

This is just a first bite at the final massive 2,600 page Report into Irish Child Abuse. It exposes in full detail a culture we fervently hope is truly dead and not merely moribund. If such institutionalised treatment is truly over, we may retain some hope in the possibility of progress. The website is under huge pressure but I managed to download the executive summary. Links to the full report will no doubt function in time. The whole terrible story unfolds in five volumes. Its presentation defies easy summary and being a judge’s work, help to highlight key points is limited. The chair Mr Justice Sean Ryan said the report “spoke for itself” and he took no questions. The Associated Press have made a good first cut. Update Cardinal Sean Brady said he was “profoundly sorry and deeply ashamed that children suffered in such awful ways in these institutions. The incoming leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales, the Most Reverend Vincent Nichols, said : those who perpetrated violence and abuse should be held to account, “no matter how long ago it happened”. Interesting he says this: how can they be held to account if there are to be no prosecutions?

Key points

More than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families — a category that often included unmarried mothers — were sent to Ireland’s austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last church-run facilities shut in the 1990s.

The report believed victims’ evidence. That was a great victory, not to be taken for granted.

But the compensation battle continues.

The Christian Brothers damned for institutionalised abuse and accused in one centre of living it up on State money intended for the children, are accused of stifling debate.

The report found that molestation and rape were “endemic” in boys’ facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

The report proposed 21 ways the government could recognize past wrongs, including building a permanent memorial, providing counseling and education to victims and improving Ireland’s current child protection services.

The Irish government already has funded a parallel compensation system that has paid 12,000 abuse victims an average of euro65,000 (£74,000). About 2,000 claims remain outstanding.

Victims receive the payouts only if they waive their rights to sue the state and the church. Hundreds have rejected that condition and taken their abusers and those church employers to court.

The Indo higlights the fact that the religious congregations have not accepted responsibility.
BBC wrap and Shane Harrison talks to victims here. Irish Times now has a fat summary by Patsy McGarry

  • Clady cowboy

    SHAME

  • An fhirinne gharbh

    The sheer cruelty of that system is hopefully gone for good, but look at how we treat the inmates of mental institutions: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0519/primetime_av.html?2546559,null,230

    The prisons are appalling and unlikely to improve any time soon.

  • The latest shocking instalment. A few personal thoughts – about Colm O’Gorman, Amnesty’s director in the Republic, and the scandal, here at Belfast and Beyond: Beyond Belief: Amnesty, the Catholic Church and child abuse.

    Amnesty’s official response – calling for constitutional change in the Republic to better protect children’s rights – has just been released and is not yet online, so I will take the liberty of posting here:

    “Today’s report is a catalogue of the greatest human rights abuses in the history of the State,” said Amnesty International Ireland Executive Director Colm O’Gorman.

    “The responses that need to be heard above all are the responses of those who lived it.

    “We cannot allow ourselves to dismiss this report’s implications for Ireland today. Along with a whole raft of other measures, the Government must fulfill its obligations and commitments to introduce constitutional reform in this area.

    “Unless the most fundamental law of our state demands that we place children’s rights and children’s dignity at the heart of decisions about
    their welfare they will remain at continuing risk of abuse and neglect, under the radar of the state bodies who are meant to protect them.”

  • Big Maggie

    It makes me almost wish I believed in hell because that’s where the deceased perpetrators ought to be. They got away with it. Those still living should be brought to justice right now.

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    “The sheer cruelty of that system is hopefully gone for good, but look at how we treat the inmates of mental institutions……….”

    I agree, such conditions are appalling…and I bet we here in Ireland have one of the highest rates of mental illness in Europe.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    [b]Wall of silence about 60 years of child abuse still not entirely broken down[/b]

    Try nearly 2000 years of abuse. This is no modern phenomenon, its the result of Vatican Canons.

    Whether you are Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Reformer or similar, this stuff can’t continue to happen.

  • Pigeon Toes

    Colm O Gorman story http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/spectrum/Colm-OGorman-interview-Conspiracy-of.5249706.jp

    I haven’t quoted from O Gorman, as this would o doubt do him and others a great injustice. Bu the following speaks volumes…

    “GREAT SIN in the Catholic Church is scandalising the faithful. But it has missed the obvious. The faithful are not as scandalised by the depravity of sick individual clerics as they are by the institutionalised corruption of a church that seeks its own self-protection by concealment and cover-up. An institution that is willing to sacrifice the innocent child for the guilty cleric. An institution that, instead of protecting children from known paedophiles, took out insurance to cover law suits against them. An institution, in other words, that protected its wealth and its image and not its innocents. That has been the true scandal of the Catholic Church.

    The current Pope, Benedict XVI, claimed media coverage of abuse scandals was prompted by “a desire to discredit the church”

  • granni trixie

    Purging and breaking the silence will be a good thing for society in the long run – sadly seems to be too late for many individuals who suffered whilst society looked the other way.

    Another slant on this dark period of history, little articulated, is that places where abuse tooke place were usually all Ireland Institutions yet most of the stories come from ROI. I and my sibling for instance lived in a children’s home/laundry in Belfast where no such culture of cruelty pevailed. Ultra religious,rule bound yes, but cruel,NO. The regeime did resonate with routines and norms depicted in say ‘misery memoirs’ or stories of abuse but we were treated with kindness and humour. You longed for the nice home life you imagined everyone else had….but it was that not the nuns fault that a children’s home was a better option than your own family.

    I would like to know if there was more regulation of childrens homes in NI to explain why a culture of cruelty prevailed largely on one side of the border – we were all part of an all-Ireland institution?

  • caoimhin

    Isn’t it time that all church influence was removed from society other that than that which concerns the Church.

  • Greenflag

    caoimhin,

    ‘Isn’t it time that all church influence was removed from society other that than that which concerns the Church.’

    The Church’s (not just RC) consider themselves to be a part of society and indeed the standard bearers for what is called ‘morality ‘

    Given freedom of religion /worship and freedom of choice the best that civil society can hope for is to separate the institutions of church and state, and make it impossible for transgressions to the civil law on the part of clerics or indeed public servants to be hidden from the public .

    It’s a damning report. What’s important is will it just go on the top shelf to gather dust for a century or two or will the elected government of the people enact legislation which will ensure that this can never happen again ?

    Who will rid us of these turbulent priests ? Not I said FF , not I said FG , not I said Labour .

    It’s another nail in the coffin of the RC Church in this country . I fell a great deal of sympathy for the many Christian Brothers and clerics and nuns who did not abuse their charges but absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for the institution which preferred to cover itself from being sued rather than do the right (moral ) thing and expell abusers and have them charged to the full letter of the law for crimes against children .

  • Gabriel

    They said thousands of the abused left Ireland when they were old enough and mainly ended up in glasgow,liverpool or london.Most have never returned to Ireland due to the deep psychological trauma they still suffer.The catholic church should hold its head in shame.

  • Mac Beth

    Pedophile terrorism is one of the greatest evils of all time.
    The Catholic Church and the Irish govenment both need to be immediately decommissioned to be never seen or heard from again except in the annals of evil.
    This pedphile scandal ranks with the Nazi concentration camps in pure naked evil.

  • anne warren

    Caoimhin wrote: Isn’t it time that all church influence was removed from society other that than that which concerns the Church.
    Fully agree wih him. Let’s hope to welome in a completely secular Republic like the French Republic.

    Wish to state:
    The report’s findings will not be used for criminal prosecutions — in part because the Christian Brothers successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed in the report. No real names, whether of victims or perpetrators, appear in the final document.
    Unless readers understand this, it’s hard to fathom Mr Walsh’s reaction (Irish Survivors of Child Abuse) to report:
    “The little comfort we have is the knowledge that it vindicated the victims who were raped and sexually abused,” said Mr Walsh. “I’m very angry, very bitter, and feel cheated and deceived. I would have never opened my wounds if I’d known this was going to be the end result.”

  • The Impartial Observer

    I’m a Christian Brothers old boy from the Abbey Primary and Grammar Schools in Newry. I have to say that many of the Brothers I encountered were genuinely religious if brutal in their discipline. There was one brother who was the subject of schoolboy gossip about abuse, at the time you dismissed it now I’m not sure at all. I have to say that the worst people I encountered in my education were not so much the Brothers but the hangers on they attracted. There was one particular teacher in the primary school who was simply a sadist who would beat the lining out of you for the most minor offence.

    Personally I would be delighted if the Christian Brothers died out or were banned as a result of the abuse and cruelty that they permitted.

  • MacBeth

    The Irish court system with its Anglo-Saxon common law needs to be totally abolished.
    This is the catastrophic failure of catastrophic failures.
    The judges need to be hanged, drawn, and quartered.

  • Greenflag

    anne warren

    ‘I would have never opened my wounds if I’d known this was going to be the end result.” ‘ (above attributed to Mr Walsh )

    Who ever would have thought that the RC Church would sue to protect the identities of criminals ?

    Let that be a lesson to all who trust the RC Church as an institution for upholding moral standards and the rule of law ? Never mind what they say just watch what they do and as Mr Walsh has found out they are out to protect their closet paedophiles first and foremost and with government assistance screw the Irish taxpayer for billions . They make the banks seem altruistic 🙁

  • John O’Connell

    I think we should all pray for those who persecuted those little children rather than simply sit in judgement of them. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

    I can actually imagine the temptation that would exist for priests, brothers and nuns left in charge of troubled children, unsupervised by anybody, to be less than Christian. Abuse, especially sexual, takes an altogether different class of recruit, but it can happen by degrees, I’m sure, if you’re sucked into that kind of work.

    No-one sets out to be an ogre even if far too many succeeded in becoming monsters.

    However, I would venture to suggest that if this Northern society thinks that it is above abusing people, it should hold its tongue for the scandals that afflict areas like child care and mental health will, in a different era, seem intolerable.

  • morgor

    I think we should all pray for those who persecuted those little children rather than simply sit in judgement of them.

    What? first of all , would your prayers not be better directed at the victims of the CRIMES rather than the unrepentant criminals?

    Secondly, i consider prayer a waste of time and would consider punishment of the criminals a much better thing to be done.

    Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. It’s a bit rich quoting the bible in defense of paedophile priests no?

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    “I think we should all pray for those who persecuted those little children rather than simply sit in judgement of them. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

    And what good will that do John? For it’s like a camel sticking it’s head in the sand. Like those who turned a blind eye to the abuse.

    And in a way you sound like an apologist for the offenders.

    Would it not be better if the offenders were prosecuted by the law?

  • MacBeth

    John O’Connell,
    This is a crime against humanity not to be swept under the rug.
    The people who destroyed the lives of tens of thousands of innocents need to be put on trial as war criminals. Many of the victims committed suicide because their lives were so totally destroyed.
    We should not treat these people any different than the Nazi war criminals who ran the concentration camps. And that includes the Irish judiciary.
    We cannot defend the indefencible.
    This is a stain on humanity.

  • MacBeth

    John O’Connell,
    This is a crime against humanity not to be swept under the rug.
    The people who destroyed the lives of tens of thousands of innocents need to be put on trial as war criminals. Many of the victims committed suicide because their lives were totally destroyed. Those are the ones who deserve our prayers.
    We should not treat these paedophiles any different than we treated the Nazi war criminals who ran the concentration camps and gas chambers.
    We simply cannot defend the indefencible.
    This is a stain of the worst kind on humanity and Ireland.

  • Anon

    MacBeth: you’re right that this abuse constitutes a crime against humanity but please, enough of the super-hyperbole (war criminals, executing judges)

    O’Connell: you’re an idiot and a disgrace. The attitude of lay people in the Church like yourself further undermines any last remnants of credibility which the Roman Catholic Church may cling on to.

    [i]Let he who is without sin cast the first stone…..I can actually imagine the temptation that would exist for priests[/i]

    Appalling comments to make. Sanctimonious bullshit. I’m as ashamed of fellow Catholics like yourself as I am of the men who perpetrated this crime against humanity. You ought to be embarrassed at the revulsion that comments like that will inevitably cause. But you won’t because you are a demented fool.

  • Anon

    [i]…I can actually imagine the temptation that would exist for priests[/i]

    On second thoughts, that is a truly horrid and disturbing point to make. People will draw their own conclusions as to what goes on in your head given your propensity to write such unsettling, troubling drivel.

  • John O’Connell

    The schools where this abuse allegedly took place were more like holiday camps than gulags. Most of the children were better of there in State care than with their dysfunctional families.

    We should pray for [b]everyone[/b] involved.

  • Pigeon Toes

    Perhaps new posters on the thread might like to link to Johns site to see what he actually believes.

    http://johnoconnell.org

    Fascinating!

  • Derek

    Um…So does this mean that the current Irish politicians and judiciary effectively support the RC Church against the victims of the RC Church’s abuse?

    I mean, this report (and related events) seems to leave no avenue for criminal prosecutions against paedophile rapists, sadists and child-murderers. Is that what the politicians and judiciary actually want?

  • Harry Flashman

    The current Pope, Benedict XVI, claimed media coverage of abuse scandals was prompted by “a desire to discredit the church”

    And when one reads many of the posts above one is drawn to the inevitable conclusion that he has a point.

    Listen to the Catholic bashers above who attempt to peddle the canard that this sort of thing was somehow related to Catholic doctrine or unique to the Catholic Church. Absolute balderdash, what happened in Ireland was an abuse of power by individuals and woeful failures in control by established institutions it had diddly squat to do with the teachings of the Catholic Church.

    Just for the record if Ireland had been run by Communists the children would have been sexually abused by Communists

    If Ireland had been run by militant Orangemen the children would have been sexually abused by militant Orangemen

    If Ireland had been run by the United Nations then the children would have been sexually abused by UN workers

    If Ireland had been run by left wing Gay rights activists then the children would have been sexually abused by left wing Gay rights activists

    Need I continue?

    Ease off the Catholic bashing folks, what was done was horrific but it most certainly wasn’t unique to the Irish Catholic church, not by a bloody long chalk. Some of your own favourite institutions don’t exactly come out smelling of roses when it comes to covering up child sex abuse.

  • abucs

    Agreed Harry.

    Just to add that everyone who took part should go straight to gaol. There is no excuse.

    Can someone please tell me what the legal considerations were in not naming names as i am at a lost to understand why this was the case.

    I can’t see any reason why any legal system would not be wanting to punish the perpetrators in a clear and open manner.

  • Harry Flashman,

    “Just for the record if Ireland had been run by Communists the children would have been sexually abused by Communists

    If Ireland had been run by militant Orangemen the children would have been sexually abused by militant Orangemen

    If Ireland had been run by the United Nations then the children would have been sexually abused by UN workers

    If Ireland had been run by left wing Gay rights activists then the children would have been sexually abused by left wing Gay rights activists”

    Hypothetical scenarios of what others might (or might not) do are frankly irrelevant. Deal with the reality. No one is attacking catholic theology. What’s angered people is that an institution that many placed their utmost trust in abetted evil and totally abused its position of authority. That’s not catholic church bashing. It’s holding the church up to its own declared high moral standards and finding them one-hundred per cent non-existent. People are right to be furious and appalled.

    Not all clergy were evil of course but the level and longevity of the abuse would suggest widespread complicity. If it were a bank, it would be shut down, its crooks hanging from the rafters.

    If others want to score political points on the backs of the innocent victims (as you yourself do with the Orange Order), that’s their pathetic call but it shouldn’t let the scum that ran the catholic church off the hook.

    The perpetrators need to be named, shamed and tossed into the Atlantic. Where’s St. Patrick when you need him?

  • granni trixie

    Flashman:Whatabout your whataboutery!
    Yes, Orange Order et al may have things to answer for but Protestant institutions in the South were not in the same powerful position as the Catholic church nor have the cultural immpact.

    The fact is that the Catholic church in ROI was in a unique position of power,overlapping with world of politics. In part this accounts for their capacity to go unchallenged. In the culture of the times, people put priests and religious on pedestals.In fact, I think that key to understanding how such a situation of institutional abuse sustained for so long is to understand the Catholic culture of the times. Plus state regulation (or not,see my previous post on this).

  • John O’Connell

    Post 24 in previous thread was not mine. It’s just my enemies in Sinn Fein trying to discredit me. I wonder what they have to fear. Try this http://johnoconnell.org/number_of_the_beast_calculat.htm

    I’ve taken a lot of stick for my initial post but I think that Harry Flashman has set the record straight for Catholics. The Church as an institution is not to blame. Christianity is not to blame. Human frailty is to blame and that affects every corner of society.

    But, yes, my first concern is for the victims of this abuse as I made clear in previous threads. All abuse is wrong and evil and should not be tolerated, especially if it is done by religious people who profess to be Christians.

  • mean-spirited little right wing bloke

    Novel new legal defence for the pedophile from Harry Flashman “if hadn’t sexually abused the children Communists or orangemen would have”. I would be interested to see how successful that is for you.

    One of the many possible rebuttals to your moronic and nasty little argument is that neither UN workers / communists / left wing gays / orangemen force celibacy onto their neighbours.

  • Gabriel

    The irish govt and the Gardai were terrified to upset the catholic church during these years of abuse..

  • Big Maggie

    I’m working my through the report with a growing sense of horror.

    So far I haven’t heard any voices calling for the institutions involved to be charged with slavery. It seems to have been systematic: men and women profiting from the unpaid labour of little children.

    In the USA they do it differently: 12 years for slavers in Florida. What’s to stop the Irish authorities doing the same?

  • John East Belfast

    Harry Flashman

    You cant be serious.

    The Catholic Church was totally to blame for what happened to children in its care by its officials.

    They compounded the problem by covering it up – something they continue to do today by frustrating the revealing of identies of the perpetrators and doing all in their power to prevent that each and every one of the scum bags are thrown in prison – no matter what age they are now.

    It was all about fear and power and how they exercised it over the populace. They even exercised it over the Govt and De Velera didnt proclaim a Catholic Constitution for a Cathlic nation nothing.

    When people (often justifiably) refer to the base sectarianism towards Ctaholics by Protestants they have to see where it is coming from.
    Yes there are the brute ignorant but for the thinking its basis lies in a long held and in my opinion justifiable suspicion of the Catholic Institution.

    Protestantism doesnt like that kind of power and would never revere its religious leaders (most of whom it actually elects and if necessary can kick out)in the way that catholics do.

    Basically the fear of the clergy and the unwavering belief in their goodness opended the door for the wicked to exercise an unquestionable power the results of which are always inevitable.

    The Catholic Church in Ireland undeniably had in its midst a greater proportion of perverts and the way the Institution conducted its affairs enabled them to act with impunity.

    They are 100% guilty for creating this environment.

  • exile

    My recollection of a Christian Brothers school is of slightly unworldly men from rural Ireland. One or two were unecessarily violent but no more so than lay teachers. One, however, would touch us inappropriately, but openly, in front of classmates who just smirked and sniggered.

    My other recollection growing up was the family pressure to enter the priesthood, brotherhood or nunnery and how proud and even aloof those families became when a son or daughter had “the calling”. I have also come across many who dropped out. If you ask them why the reply is one word – “sex” – meaning its non availability

  • John Terry’s Mum

    The Church as an institution is not to blame. Christianity is not to blame. Human frailty is to blame and that affects every corner of society.

    Imagine the catholic church had allowed live tigers into the dorms of Artane school and then (after denying their presence and hiding the ongoing maulings and deaths) the church came out and said ‘this is not our fault it is fault in the personality of individual tigers’.

    The Catholic Church has compounded and facilitated the problem and thus are open to a huge amount of blame.

    The Church is sinking ship thanks goodness, no matter how much you and Flashman try to bail it out.

  • Big Maggie

    Speaking of Artane has anybody an alternative link to the PDF? This one on the RTE site seems to be broken.

  • Neil

    Harry,

    you have a point that’s fair enough, but it appears to me (and I was brought up in a three rosaries a day at least household, summer holidays in Fatima that kind of thing), that there’s an effort stretching to the Vatican to keep this under wraps. The moral response would be to tear the house down looking for the perptrators in my opinion.

    I personally, have retained a fondness for Catholicism and religion or spirituality, I’m fascinated by it in all it’s forms, haven’t got the full on confidence of either an athiest or a devotee. But this story has made me think of the church as a whole in a different light. At this point I’m tempted to go start going on about what I would have done to the perpetrators so I’ll finish by saying that at leaste these people should be subjected to the harshest letter of the law applicable, ASAP before any more shuffle off without experiencing a spell under the control of a Prison Guard, who would undoubtedly be a morally superior person to the priests and brothers.

    JOC,

    Disappointed in that response to be honest. If you’re going to be out there blogging away about Catholicism I think you above all should have the decnecy to admit when the Church you devote your life to is in the wrong. And by in the wrong I mean bad shit, i.e. evil. Pray for the perpetrators? I think not.

  • Harry Flashman

    Right, so the systematic sexual abuse of children by left wing gay activists in many Labour run local authorities in the UK throughout the 1970’s and ’80s and which was covered up by Labour politicians, several of whom have since reached high political office in the UK, is a total indictment of the British Labour Party is it?

    The widespread sexual abuse of children in schools and educational establishments in the US and the UK which is ongoing and which has seen the perpetrators aided and assisted by their teaching unions is a wholesale indictment of the teaching profession and teachers generally is it?

    The widespread sexual abuse of children by UN workers and its covering up by UN high officials is a complete and utter indictment of the United Nations is it?

    The horrific abuse of children ongoing in Muslim schools and families is a carte blanche indictment of Islam is it?

    Or does this rule only apply to the Irish Catholic church?

  • Neil

    If the Labour Party/UN etc. involved themselves in a cover up then yes it is a carte blanche indictment. A more fitting example if we take the teachers, would be that a massive number of teachers were abusing children, and the LEA covered it up, moved the rapists on to other schools, and then attempted to prevent justice being served on the rapists, then would we be within our rights to go after the LEA? Fuckin A we would.

    It seems fairly straightforward that the Church was very aware of what was going on here and did their best to ensure the information did not come out. The Church has questions to answer, it’s an organisation with a heirarchy and we’re led to believe that information regarding this had been past up the line from parishes in Ireland all the way to the Pope. Too many people knew what was happening, rapists we’re moved away from complaints and put in charge of more children elsewhere. It was depraved indifference which led to the continuing suffering of these unfortunates, people dealt a bad hand in life then taken under the wing of the church and abused.

  • Harry Flashman is right

    Keep on abusing. Nothing to see here.

  • Harry Flashman

    Well Neil it might shock you to discover that precisely the scenarios you described and more have been standard operating procedures by the teaching unions, the UN and the British Labour party over the past forty years or more, I await the lynch mobs in vain I think.

    What happened in Ireland over those dreadful years in the past was awful but I find myself sitting in amazement witnessing the seeming unanimity of Irish people in their reaction to it. They are like those Germans you saw in the immediate aftermath of the Second World War walking around the concentration camps expressing their horror about how they had no idea this stuff was going on.

    It’s almost like the Irish Catholic Church was some sort of alien life force that beamed itself down on to Irish society and decided by itself to take charge of orphanages and children’s homes against the wishes of the tolerant, liberal, secularist majority of Irish people.

    Bullshit on stilts!

    The howls of outrage from those people who knew bloody rightly what was going on in those institutions and thoroughly approved of it has a nauseating stench of typical Irish hypocrisy to it that one can barely stand close to it.

    All those letter writers to the Irish Times and the perpetually outraged phone in merchants to RTE radio are the sons and daughters of the people who were perfectly feckin’ happy to see the “wee gobshites” and “offspring of sluts” (as they would have seen them) get a good bloody hiding from those Christian Brothers and Sisters of Mercy, and “shure isn’t it a blessin’ we have such daycent men and women to look after them, the wee hoors should be grateful for what they get”.

    It ill behoves such whited sepulchres to now demand the scalps of some octogenarian nuns or priests to be hauled up and screamed at by the mob to soothe their consciences about that which they and their parents thoroughly approved of.

  • Pigeon Toes

    “people dealt a bad hand in life then taken under the wing of the church and abused.”

    I think that may might question what “bad hand they had been dealt with” before being take away.

    A lot of these poor children were taken from their families i the most dubious of circumstances.

    Not only are they victims,but their families must have endured, and continue to endure the aftermath of these evils.

  • Harry Flashman

    The post at 2.44 above was not by me, I thought Mick had sorted out this false name business.

  • Big Maggie

    Harry Flashman,

    I’d be obliged if you didn’t try to divert attention from the major issue by calling Mark Trotter one of a number of “left wing Gay rights activists”. He was a Labour activist who happened to be gay and who happened to abuse.

    Stick to systematic abuse by Catholic religious orders please.

  • Big Maggie

    Harry,

    I’m assuming the post at 4.36 was yours.

  • Neil

    It’s not hypocrisy from me, I’m only 30. The octogenerian rapists deserve time as much as any other rapist. Whether this soothes the conscience of the mob or not is not relevant, what victims usually want is revenge, and this they deserve in the form of legal justice.

  • Greenflag

    Derek ,

    ‘I mean, this report (and related events) seems to leave no avenue for criminal prosecutions against paedophile rapists, sadists and child-murderers. Is that what the politicians and judiciary actually want? ‘

    Ten years ago the answer would have to be YES . For the FF Government then ‘bailed out ‘ the Church in a manner not dissimilar to Governments today bailing out banks , insurance companies , etc etc .

    Today the answer would be more of a we hope the issue just goes away . Of course it should’nt go away . The perpetrators of these crimes and any public servants , politicians or individuals who aided and abetted them should face the full rigor of the law . The people who were victimised by these criminals were mostly the children of the poor or those who could easily be walked over by the educational or local clerical authorities . The Irish Tanaiste (deputy PM) Mary Coughlan has not ruled out a review of the ten year old decision on granting ‘immunity’ to prosecution . She knows that Irish attitudes in relation to the Catholic Church have changed dramatically over the past decade .

    ‘It was depraved indifference which led to the continuing suffering of these unfortunates, people dealt a bad hand in life then taken under the wing of the church and abused.’

    As it saith in the bible;)

    ‘To them that hath, it shall be given and to them that hath not even that which they haven’t got will be taken from them ‘

  • Pat Quinlan

    Harry Flashman makes great points. He also could have mentioned Lord Boothby, Churchill’s sidekick, who was into scat and stuff and was in the pocket of the Krays.

    Colm O’Gorman did well out of this. He was involved with the late Fr Fortune (a nutcase) when he was 16/17 years old. Without Fortune, he would not now be duce of Amnesty International (an MI5 creation which did nothing for the Birmingham 6 etc)and living with his male lover and two vulnerable children entrusted to them.

    The Catholic Church needs change. But I don’t think hard line Belfast Prodtestants or Celtic tiger coke snorters should force the pace of change.

    The child abuse problem/legacy will need a subtler approach than the bigots of Belfast and Joe Duffy’s rent a crowd can muster.

    We could also discuss child sex abuse in Na Fianna, the youth wing of the IRA but that can wait.

  • Big Maggie

    I mentioned earlier that the RTE link to the Artane PDF was broken. There’s another copy on the Commission’s own site.

  • Greenflag

    John East Belfast ,

    ‘They are 100% guilty for creating this environment. ‘

    True enough . But also our elected politicians are also 100% guilty for turning the other way when many knew what was going on ! IIRC the Father Smyth scandal helped to bring down Albert Reynolds because some Minister ‘sat’ on an incriminating file rather than have the ‘criminal’ extradited to Northern Ireland ‘

    Let’s hope Tanaiste (Deputy PM Mary Coughlan ) has the gumption to pursue these criminals .

  • Kincora Raping the Kids

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8030299.stm

    Here is a nice picture of today’s non Catholic England (England has more Catholics than Ireland but some contributors here don’t do facts, so when in anti Rome..)

    Labour leaning social workers have an awful name in this regard.

    Raping babies and Labour hacks covering it up. We could go on and on but why?

    Keep us updated Big Maggie. We need the rightouss rush.

  • Rent Boy Seeker

    On a related matter, are the little rent boys still to be had on Burgh Quay, just outside the offices of the Irish Times? I have to aks here as I owuld not expect the Irish Times (including some who should) to know. Not a seller.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    When you have a long hard look at the Roman Catholic church you can’t help but wonder how they ever got to this stage. They have been warned ample times over the centuries that their rules are in error and you would think they would correct those things which are wrong.

    However, things just don’t happen that way with the Roman Church, the only way they know to respond is by excommunicating and damning those who speak out against it. Instead of changing the wrongs in the church, they make more and more rules elevating themselves even higher and with greater authority.

    Do not expect this organisation to change. They have become a law unto themselves and their attempts to pervert the civil cases against its ‘holy men’ are proof of that.

    Come out of her, my people!

  • Greenflag

    john o’connell /Jesus Christ II,

    ‘The Church as an institution is not to blame.’

    It’s not ? So the institution which covered up all of these crimes had nothing to do with aiding and abetting these criminals ? Next you’ll be trying to persuade us that the Nazi Party had nothing to do with the extermination camps ? You walk on water too ? Try the North Atlantic . Give our regards to the Icelanders .

    ‘ Human frailty is to blame and that affects every corner of society.’

    Cop out time and a diversionary harry flashism . So who created this human frailty ? Oh yes your God. That jewish carpenter’s father – you know the one who had his son crucified and his mother impregnated by an invisible angel ?

    Harry Flashman,

    In your attempt to deflect attacks on the Irish Catholic Church you forgot to mention the 1 million under age child prostitutes of Hindu India . Not that that has anything to do with the RC Church mind you !

    While you have a point it’s irrelevant to what needs to be done in Ireland now i.e the full exposure and criminal charging of those who are found guilty of these crimes and of aiding and abetting them .

    We can solve the ‘moral issues’ of other countries and cultures when we’ve wrapped it up here !

  • Ulsters my homeland

    [i]You walk on water too ? Try the North Atlantic[/i]

    LOL

  • Big Maggie

    Kincora,

    Righteous rush? What are you on about? Read the papers why don’t you.

    Anyhow got to go.

  • I’m with Harry Flashman

    Harry Flashman is right.
    I believe the abusers need sweet deals and not to get dragged into tedious legal argument. Why should old pedophiles be held accountable for their crimes?

    All you stupid people getting angry about the endemic sbuse in Ireland are picking the wrong targets, you should be getting angry with the people getting angry.

    There’s no point taking this serious bad stuff happens other places too.

  • Ulster is my Homeboy

    UMH:

    Have you come full circle on this matter aswell?

  • John O’Connell

    Fuck you Greenflag you piece of shit. The Church had nothing to do with this. Like I said, these schools were like holiday camps

    Every time a man commits a rape we don’t then say: ‘Oooohh every single male should be held accountable.’

    I am the Second Coming and there’s nothing that can stop me.

    I’m off out to campaign on behalf of Alban in the Greater Shantallow area

  • John O’Connell

    Neil

    If you’re going to be out there blogging away about Catholicism I think you above all should have the decnecy to admit when the Church you devote your life to is in the wrong.

    If they were obeying the teachings of the Church Jesus founded they would not have done what they did. So how is the Church wrong? If the Church were materially and irreformably corrupt, I would say so. But evidently it is not. Again I point you to the same human frailty that causes everyone to sin. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Evidently there are those on this thread who think they qualify as being without sin. That’s how ignorant they are.

    Greenflag

    Cop out time and a diversionary harry flashism . So who created this human frailty ? Oh yes your God. That jewish carpenter’s father – you know the one who had his son crucified and his mother impregnated by an invisible angel ?

    and Ulsters my homeland

    Come out of her, my people!

    Clearly you’re angry but you should be wary of insulting God or his Church.

    The Empire Babylon referred to by UMH is not the Roman Catholic Church but the British Empire as you’ll see from my authentic interpretation of the Book of Revelation at: http://johnoconnell.org/Revelation.htm

    Point number 6 reveals this.

    But the point I would make is that it is important to note all the abuse in the form of violence and repression and butchery that the British empire used to get where it is today and yet you’re screaming for the heads of the RC Church. Get real.

  • John O’Connell

    Post number 11 is not mine.

  • Neil

    So how is the Church wrong?

    The cover up dude. The fact that they enabled child abusers to continue pleasuring themselves with the misery of others by moving them into new positions of power over children. Documents have been uncovered in Rome, this means that an awful lot of people knew and did nothing.

    Therefore, to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin
    James 4:17

  • John O’Connell

    Neil

    Individual members of the clergy have done these things and they are culpable and should suffer for it.

    But the Church as an institution has no mandate from Christ to do these things and cannot therefore be culpable as Christ’s Church. It can only be culpable if its rules, which are universal and do not simply relate to Ireland, stipulte that abuse is acceptable.

  • John O’Connell

    Neil

    Individual members of the clergy have done these things and they are culpable and should suffer for it.

    But the Church as an institution has no mandate from Christ to do these things and cannot therefore be culpable as Christ’s Church. It can only be culpable if its rules, which are universal and do not simply relate to Ireland, stipulte that abuse is acceptable.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Haughty homeboy

    “[i]Have you come full circle on this matter aswell? [/i]

    aswell?

    Is this the retarded way of spelling as well? PHD my ass, more like ADHD.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    John O’Connell

    [i]”Clearly you’re angry but you should be wary of insulting God or his Church.”[/i]

    Does God’s church forbid to marry?

    Does God’s church instruct to abtsain from meats?

  • Pigeon Toes

    “You walk on water too ? Try the North Atlantic”

    JOC

    Whilst you are at it, could you not help out some of the fishermen?
    They are having a pretty rough time, and I am led to believe you were rather fond of them last time around.

  • Greenflag

    ‘o’connell a.k.a the coming one ‘

    ‘you should be wary of insulting God or his Church.’

    I was only aving a larf said Spike !

  • Greenflag

    oops wrong one

    The Lord speaketh his Prayer .

  • Greenflag

    Who beateth out of him (o’connell) the crap 😉

  • John O’Connell

    Greenflag

    Who beateth out of him (o’connell) the crap 😉

    It just goes to show you that nothing on this thread and all the sanctimonious nonsense you write was all that important to you. You’re a hypocritical bullshit artist.

  • Brian MacAodh

    Even the PIRA killed pedophiles

  • anne warren

    What appears to emerge from the Report is a state sponsored system of rape,mental and physical cruelty and induction to slavery that continued for over half a century.
    Apart from the horrendous crimes in the various reformatories, the inextricable links of Catholic church and state in the ROI led to widespread abuse of power, lack of information and development of tools for critical thinking due to psychological browbeating and intimidation. The hierarchy knew and covered it up, the State knew and colluded in the ongoing abuses and cover-up, many of the people probably knew but preferred to look the other way.It’s a hard truth to face up to and cope with anger at being duped by a church that certainly did not practise what it preached. It is to be hoped that if no redress is to be obtained within the ROI that human rights lawyers look into the possibilities of action at the European Court of Justice or the UN court of human rights. Solidarity with the victims is the minimum each and every one of us can offer.

  • Ms Wiz

    It’s quite simple. A crime of monstrous proportions has been committed. These people, whether the perpetrators in the RC church or the state officials who covered it up should be prosecuted regardless of their age, and subsequently jailed for a very long time, i.e. until they croak.

    What I don’t get is how an institution that professes celibacy can be entrusted with the care of children. What the hell do they know about bringing up children? They can’t even have sex for chrissakes.

    The report has the reading of a horror story. The more you read it the more you begin to lose faith in ANY priest in Ireland. As far as I’m concerned, those who knew about the abuse but did nothing are equally as guilty.

  • St Kevin

    Big Maggie,

    ” Mark Trotter … was a Labour activist who happened to be gay and who happened to abuse”.
    Stick to systematic abuse by Catholic religious orders please.

    There is a wider issue. Why not brng in the hobbies of Labour Party activists or of vermin like Lord Keynes who liked nothing better than rooting bell boys? The British Labour Party covered up sex abuses in the past, often in collusion with the Tories.

    If Jesus is posting, so can I. I am St Kevin, after whom the Dublin workhouse was named. Children were abused so badly there by those who bought them for farm slave work, that the name had to be changed. It is now known as St James’ hospital. Of course, that scandal ended ages ago and we are on to the next puff of wind.

    The Christian Brothers and the hordes who joined the nuns were also victims. They were head hunted from certain families and pushed into servitude as 13 year olds. The Brothers put their own nutcases in charge of the borstals, which had three kinds of inmates: unfortunates in for mitching and the like, budding Bugsy Malone scumbags and half right kids. Like all abusers, they groomed and picked their victims.

    Having been screwed by their abusers,they are now being screwed by their lawyers and those who see them as pawns to attack the One, Holy and Apostolic Church, against which the fires of hell will never prevail.

    You know, this would get more psots if we coud get an Old Firm angle into it. Did Neil Lennon go to the CBS?

  • Greenflag

    ms wiz ,

    ‘The more you read it the more you begin to lose faith in ANY priest in Ireland. As far as I’m concerned, those who knew about the abuse but did nothing are equally as guilty.’

    And those who knew appear to have had a line all the way to the Vatican where it appears the lines got crossed and the news when it did break in Ireland and elsewhere came as a complete shock ?

    Perhaps we misjudged Ian Paisley in his rantings against Romanism ? At the very least he seems to have been a bit more perceptive than the Irish political establishment .

    St kevin ,

    ‘The Christian Brothers and the hordes who joined the nuns were also victims.’

    They were not children when they inflicted abuse on these poor children . And while many may have been victims themselves they were ‘protected’ by the Church establishment and if truth be known by the political and legal establishments also .

    ‘There is a wider issue. ‘

    Funny isn’t it ? Always when the fit hits the shan the guilty try to appease their guilt by an appeal that they are not the only ones ? Well we all know that . But we also know that unless the civil law is implemented as it should be then these criminals will remain on the loose to commit their crimes again and again ! I mean you don’t think that for one minute these criminals even those who are no longer ministering in the Church have changed their ways do you ?

    O’connell

    ‘we must pray for all the victims ‘

    More sanctimonious claptrap . There is no evidence that praying for anything achieves anything . Although it’s not perfect I prefer to put my trust in a court of law and see these people put behind bars and the Catholic Church as an institution forced to pay up for it’s negligence and amoral hypocrisy in the manner in which it has dealt with these crimes over the past 60 years and probably longer !

  • Pink Flag

    Greenflag

    I hope you feel good about that post and it keeps your chest out for a while. When the Bishop Casey affair broke, the DUP spokesperson had a mature, honest and reasoned approach, which really impressed me.

    Maybe you remember the Fr Brendan Smyth case. He was demonised as the most evil man in Ireland. This was said at a time when PIRA were slaughtering people and its Short Strand squad was having kids as R&R. Smyth was a nutcase and, though his crimes deserved a long sentence, the fact that such an obviously skewed man was allowed to persist in the priesthood needs investigating.

    Have you seen the Oliver O’Grady movie or Louis Thereaux’s visit to child sex offenders in the USA? O’Grady is another nut job and the incarcerated paedophiles interviewed are as eloquent as any politician. Until deeper issues are looked at, child sex abuse will contine. As long as kids are dragooned into joining the priesthood, the Provos, the Labour Party etc, these crimes will continue and empty moralists will quack on about them and do nothing to alleviate them.

    The Christian Brothers did more for Ireland than all their detractors combined did. The argument is similar to the Provo one of martrdom for a greater cause. But those who bet each way wil probably never understand or want to understand.

  • John O’Connell

    Greenflag

    Although it’s not perfect I prefer to put my trust in a court of law

    I prefer God’s justice to man’s. These men are getting that justice now and its worse than anything the courts could do. That justice is female embarrassment from a female God.

    This is as good as it may get for those children, but it saddens me greatly that it ever had to come to this.

  • Greenflag

    ‘The Christian Brothers did more for Ireland ‘

    I’m sure many of them did their best for their pupils . One of the best teachers I ever had was a De la Salle Brother . That was in a school were the head brother was a known paedophile who was never arrested for his crimes .

    Child sex abuse is a crime no matter who the perpetrator . The crime in these cases is exacerbated by the fact that those who were/are supposed to me the moral standard bearers of Irish society deliberately withheld information for decades from the authorities and continued to allow these paedophiles to ‘operate’ without hindrance and even now are looking for ‘protection’ from the law :(?

    ‘I hope you feel good about that post’

    Quite the opposite . It’s a horror story and I hope the civil authorities will do what is right by the victims .

  • Big Maggie

    Greenflag,

    “Perhaps we misjudged Ian Paisley in his rantings against Romanism ? At the very least he seems to have been a bit more perceptive than the Irish political establishment .”

    Perhaps we did misjudge Paisley sr on this issue. The absurd situation whereby the Irish religious orders made a “deal” with the political establishment must go contrary to ANY judicial rulings elsewhere in the world, with the exception of Muslim states.

    (By some quirk, or by kismet, the code I’m entering for this comment is “child”.)

    The perpetrators of those heinous crimes against children are criminals and must be pursued as such. They were in the pay of the Irish government. There’s no earthly reason why they can’t be prosecuted for their crimes. I hope the victims can be persuaded to take their case to the European Court of Human Rights and see the rulings of the Irish judiciary overthrown. Believe me, this is what the majority of Irish people want.

  • abucs

    Those in the Catholic church need to make a greater participation in ensuring the educational and charitable works are free from people who are ‘only in it for themselves’ and bring discredit on everyone.

    If people in the church do not take sin and God seriously, then they should be drop-punted over the fence and ex-communicated.

    There is no place in the church for those that don’t take sin and God seriously.

  • Brian Walker

    It’s ironic to hear from Catholics who may not remember the Paisley of old saying he might have been right. On the oppression of the Church, indeed he often was, just as one might say Stalin was right,that Hitler was a bad thing. Such moral authority as Paisley had was compromised by his arrogance, intolerance and the rabble-rousing that contributed to so much violence and death. He learned better over time, but at great cost to the community.

  • Greenflag

    abucs,

    ‘There is no place in the church for those that don’t take sin and God seriously.’

    That’s right Father Dougal -Go to Craggy Island -do not collect 300 plenary indulgences and make sure that none of the collection monies are ‘resting’ in your bank account;)

    BW ,

    ‘It’s ironic to hear from Catholics who may not remember the Paisley of old saying he might have been right.’

    Not really – Even a stopped clock is right twice in 24 hours . When you don’t believe in an all black and all white world or live in the moral certainty of medieval Rome or Calvinist Geneva (a la Turgon) then it becomes possible to see that at least on this issue – i.e Catholic institutional corruption- that Paisley got very close to the truth . This of course at the same time as he ‘ruled ‘ over his own ‘institutions ‘ both Party(DUP) and Church (FP) with the proverbial rod of iron . There were no dissenters or if there were they did’nt last.

    I still however agree with your overall assessment that his ‘arrogance’ made a bad situation worse – but then it often happens that a bad situation has to be made worse before anything is done about it -given the power of human inertia – And like it or not (and while I’m personnally not too keen on it ) Paisley did deliver ‘power sharing ‘ with SF . That achievement like it or not got NI to where it is today .

    History makes strange bedfellows as we all learnt back at the time of the Molotov -Von Ribbontrop Pact eh ? Or did we learn ever ?

  • Packy McBooner

    “History makes strange bedfellows as we all learnt back at the time of the Molotov -Von Ribbontrop Pact eh ? Or did we learn ever ?”

    Who were the moral angels there? I am not Polish by the way. At least the lawyers will be protected by the recession as they will now be able to sue the Catholics Church. 1916 and all that.

  • Edmund

    Fr Brendan Smyth was wanted for the same crimes in Belfast. Was it because he lived in Belfast County Down the Really Useful Clouseaus could not find him?