Liverpool’s tragic legacy

The rawness displayed at the 20th anniversary commemoration of the Hillsborough disaster is a reminder that legacy issues cling to places other than Northern Ireland. The boos directed at Everton supporter and Sports Secretary Andy Burnham on the Anfield turf recalls the rough reception given to NI Secretaries of State Jim Prior and Tom King in the bad old days. Media misdeeds are not forgotten; the Sun still isn’t forgiven for its claim that drunken fans urinated on the dead. A factor common to both sides of the Irish Sea is a strong sense of public injustice, often deserved, sometimes not. Did police complacency followed by panic deserve a prison sentence? I ‘m not sure. The suggestion over a different issue that Liverpool’s working class pride can degenerate into wallowing in victimhood cost Boris Johnson a couple of his nine political lives. Another factor in common may be the stronger the sense of identity, the longer the memories linger. Overall though, Liverpool is living with its scars and and its community relations are a model we could do worse than follow. It’s a lighter legacy to bear though, when identity is mainly expressed through football loyalties and tragedies.

  • padraic

    [i]The boos directed at Everton supporter and Sports Secretary Andy Burnham on the Anfield turf[/i]

    Somewhat misleading. True, he is an Everton fan. However, I saw several Everton scarves in the crowd. He wasn’t actually booed – rather, as soon as he mentioned that Gordon Brown would “ensure that those who died would never be forgotten” (paraphrasing) the crowd got angry and, rather than booing, some started shouting at him. The whole crowd then began to chant “justice for the 96”.

    Liverpudlians generally thrive on perceived injustices and tragedies – must be their Irish blood.

  • the joxer

    Must be my Irish blood, Padraic, but I don’t think that this was a ‘perceived’ injustice.

    South Yorkshire Police has yet to be held accountable for it’s disgraceful abdication of responsibility that led to the day’s tragic outcome.

  • padraic

    I didn’t say that this was a perceived injustice. Those in charge of S. Yorks police on the day have yet to be held to account for their actions -I doubt whether or not they can be held responsible for all of the deaths at Hillsborough but they most definitely worsened the situtation on the day and contrived to lie through their teeth afterwards.

    Nevertheless, scousers do tend to thrive off mawkish sentimentality

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/4372230.stm

  • the joxer

    I should be perplexed, Padraic, as to why you think it appropriate to introduce this particular link to a 2005 BBC local news story. I should be perplexed, but I’m not.

    It is a particularly sad indictment on you as a human being, that you have retained this ‘story’ in your ‘brain’ and that you see fit to introduce this on a thread dealing with the deaths of 96 people, including some children.

  • padraic

    The main thrust of this thread deals strongly with perceived senses of public injustices. Therefore, I am perfectly entitled to raise a broader point about perceived interpretations of scouse group mentality – the fact that you cannot divorce this with my views on the Hillsborough tragedy with is your problem – and a “sad indictment” in itself.

  • the joxer

    The only thrust of this thread is to discuss the deaths of 96 people at Hillsborough and the consequent devastating impacts that it had on the people of Liverpool and beyond.

    It is not therefore appropriate or beneficial for you (in your wisdom) to introduce a story about a dead chicken.

  • John

    Please dont compare that great English maritime City to your religiously backward subsidy drunk Irish/Northern irish EU Regions.

    And, in layman’s terms, Liverpudlians are English, not “irish”, Liverpool is in England you see.

  • padraic

    [i]The only thrust of this thread is to discuss the deaths of 96 people at Hillsborough and the consequent devastating impacts that it had on the people of Liverpool and beyond.[/i]

    No it’s not. Read Brian Walker’s comments again, slowly.

    [i]It is not therefore appropriate or beneficial for you (in your wisdom) to introduce a story about a dead chicken.[/i]

    Yes it is – it acts as limited proof to back up my claim that Liverpudlians get involved in mawkish sentimentality much more than they should. It also relates directly to the whole point of this thread – legacy issues, public injustices, community relations etc. – as in the fact that this particular thread uses the recent commemorations of the Hillsborough tragedy as an example to invoke a much wider point.

    Seriously, have a go reading the initial comments again. If you still can’t grasp the point then we do, indeed, have a “sad indictment” on our hands here.

  • padraic

    [i]Liverpudlians are English, not “irish”[/i]

    Where does anyone argue otherwise?

  • the joxer

    Padraic, your self-proclaimed ‘limited proof’ argument (in other words, the ‘chicken story’) merely highlights your own puerile and limited intellect.

    Why do you feel that ‘scousers’ (to use your earlier term) invoke mawkish sentimentality more than the citizens of any other city? It is evident that you have sought to deviate from the purpose of the thread to unfairly castigate and denigrate the people of Liverpool. And this to satisy your own poorly-disguised childish prejudices, which are no doubt fuelled by your own anal obsession with another English soccer team.-Grow up.

  • padraic

    Indeed, the joxer. I support no English soccer teams – my soccer allegiances are limited to a passing sympathy with the Irish national team. I could easily attempt to smear your argument with the same baseless claim, but I won’t.

    It’s quite sad that you have now demeaned yourself to the depths of childish abuse and petty, unsubstantiated claims. A “sad indictment” and proof of “limited intellect”, no doubt. Ah well, all in the name of free speech I suppose!

  • the joxer

    Enouh of the MOPEry and self-pity, Padtaic.

    I will repeat the question and ask again why you feel that ‘scousers’ invoke mawkish sentimentality more than the citizens of any other city?

  • padraic

    I think I’ll leave you to play (and argue) in the kiddies corner joxer. This proves, of course, that you are completely correct.

  • the joxer

    ‘I think I’ll leave you to play (and argue) in the kiddies corner joxer’

    This from the ‘man’ who introduced a ‘funny story’ about a dead chicken into a thread about the tragic deaths of 96 people- Please go and do not come back.

  • padraic

    [i] into a thread about the tragic deaths of 96 people[/i]

    Please, read the thread again. Please.

  • the joxer

    Obviously the Liverpudlian working class pride (and grief following Hillsborough) refered to by Brian is anathema to your own over-flowing humanitarian instincts, Padraic.

    Your pitiful and sanctimonious utterings depress me to the core and I now gladly remove myself from further enduring your wretched responses.

  • padraic

    More baseless, unfounded smears. Yawn.

  • Greagoir O’ Franclin

    ah….is’nt that all gorgeous.

    Irish folk should support English soccer teams far more than they do. Wearing a Mun U or Liverpool top is just not enough. Putting your life on the line is what its all about. Southern Irish supporters are far more loyal to their English teams than their northern Unionist counterparts. Most Irish supporters would vote Tony Blair for Taoiseach and Sir Alex Ferguson for President such is the devotion. Unionists just dont have the loyalty.

  • Greagoir O’ Franclin

    BTW we need more British influence and telly in Ireland. Thank Gog TV3 is paving the way. More Eastenders, Coronation (of the Queen) Street, The X Factor, The Bill, etc etc… pleeze. Unionists love it too and just cant get enough. Britain’s Got Talent is a high quality show. More Pleeze……………….. so as we can all choke on our own vomit.

    Hello, but Unionists will disagree, I’m sure, they being short of a critical faculty, well bar anything Irish!

  • YuK

    “A factor common to both sides of the Irish Sea is a strong sense of public injustice”

    Brian, here in this part of Ireland we live this side of the north channel

  • Dewi

    “And, in layman’s terms, Liverpudlians are English, not “irish”, Liverpool is in England you see.”

    Irish nationalist MP in Liverpool as late as 1929

    TP

  • oneill

    Southern Irish supporters are far more loyal to their English teams than their northern Unionist counterparts.

    Greagoir,

    Nonsense!
    Manchester United (a club with traditionally strong ties to Celtic mind) alone has supporters clubs in East Belfast, Lisburn, Ards (2!), Bangor, Portavogie, Carrick, Ballyclare, Comber, Ballymoney, Sion Mills, Coleraine, Banbridge, Portadown and I could go on, but you have surely got the point by now?!! None of those places I’d describe as being largely populated by “Southern” Irish!!!

    Overall though, Liverpool is living with its scars and and its community relations are a model we could do worse than follow

    I’m not sure it is a city that is “living with its scars”- there is still an incredible amount of (justified) bitterness which is eating away there. Maybe it would have disappeared if the police had been fully accountable for their actions that day, but I’ve got to say I doubt it.

  • And, in layman’s terms, Liverpudlians are English, not “irish”, Liverpool is in England you see.

    Some (many) might beg to differ.

    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/190/484321864_47d1edd076.jpg?v=0

  • http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/phil/germanistik/daf/Liverpool/Irish influences in Liverpool-corrected.pdf

    Quite a bit of Irish influence in Liverpool as you can see. The accent is like a cross between Dublin and Lancashire. “dey do dough, don’t dey dough”. Look at the Beatles, all Irish background apart from Ringo (see the start of the interview when they say they’re all irish). So enough of the offensive language John. Here’s something when they appeared in Dublin being interviewed by Newry’s Frank Hall they talk about their Irish background.

    http://beatlestv.blogspot.com/2009/04/beatles-interview-dublin-71163.html

  • Greenflag

    Did’nt British Prime Minister Harold Wilson claim that he got more Irish votes in his Liverpool constituency than Irish Prime Minister Jack Lynch got in Cork ?

    No wonder M15 never trusted Harold Wilson 😉

    Ronnie Whelan and Steve Heighway (both Dubs ) graced the Reds with their soccer talents and probably others as well .

  • Rory Carr

    Anyone who witnessed the massive nationwide display of mawkish sentimentality following the death of Princess Diana (and more recently, of Jade Goody)would be pressed to single out Liverpool as being more mawkish than any other town. Besides which there was nothing sentimental, mawkish or otherwise, about Liverpudlians reaction to the totally unecessary deaths of 96 people at Hillsborough largely due not only to police incompetence but to a chilling disdain by the police on duty towards those caught up in the awful consequences. The reaction was one of anger which was only compounded by the Sun’s disgraceful libel which was designed to deflect blame from the police were it was due onto the community from which the victims came.

    I must say that I find Padraic’s comments quite shameful and tainted with more than a little unthinking prejudice displaying all the sensitivity and mental vigour of that appalling Tory buffoon that we have to suffer as Mayor of London.

  • cymru

    scousers love being the centre of attention and invariably have a good cry and whinge in order to attract that attention. someone is always to blame: the tories, mancs, the police bla bla bla. everyone with any sense gets out and stays out: the beatles, cilla black. and anyone who disagrees is a tory, a manc, full of prejudice against the proud working classes etc.

  • the joxer

    ‘Chilling disdain’ sums up the Police’s attitude perfectly, Rory.

  • Union Jack

    Is it a coincidence that Liverpool fans were involved in both the Heysel and Hillsborough disasters, many of them convicted for murder in the former and being the only fans to die in the latter incident?

  • #

    Is it a coincidence that Liverpool fans were involved in both the Heysel and Hillsborough disasters, many of them convicted for murder in the former and being the only fans to die in the latter incident?
    Posted by Union Jack on Apr 19, 2009 @ 07:26 PM

    No it’s not, and what’s your point? What are you implying??

  • Union Jack

    I was implying, and am now firmly stating for those slow learners out there, that [i]some[/i]Liverpool fans are not the only people who should bear the responsibility for what happened that day.

  • the joxer

    , ‘many of them convicted for murder in the former’

    Unsurprisingly this troll is talking nonsense. No Liverpool fan was convicted of murder in respect of Heysel.

  • Union Jack

    Pardon me joxer, you are right. Fourteen Liverpool fans were convicted of manslaughter at Heysel, none of murder.

  • Well said Joxer. He’s a goddamned liar for saying that in the first place!

  • the joxer

    I am indeed right, UnionJack/Cymru etc.

  • Union Jack

    Do you deny the fact that fourteen Liverpool fans were convicted of manslaughter following Heysel?

    “A troll”, indeed how original

  • No I don’t deny that, but what’s your friggin point? Are you saying that is it a coincidence when Liverpool are involved in two games where people die? Do you think its a coincidence or have you got something else to say about Liverpool supporters?

  • Hogan

    I remember in my heady days as a law student at QUB i studied a quite dossy module called ‘Law & Society’. One day we were adressed by a guy called Professor Phil Scratton, a true scouser (and he wouldn’t mind you using the phrase) who literally wrote the book on Hillsborough http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hillsborough-Truth-Phil-Scraton/dp/1840181567

    He was able to take us through minute by minute the account of hillsborough. It saddens me that what passes for a media over here didn’t manage to pick up the fact that the world expert on the disaster is teaching right here in Belfast and would have had much to add to the debate but nobody bothered to ask him.

    Jackie Smith releasing the files now in advance of the 30 yr rule is both a relief and disgusting at the same time.

    My sister asked me today if they would be released in their entirety and i in my innocence replied yes. I did so in the belief that usually govt/polie files that get ‘sanistised’ before release normally do so on the basis on ‘National Security’ however tenuous. Hillsborough was purely and simply a public order cock-up of the highest order and the only implications it could possibly have would be of the criminal and pension variety for a small number of officers.

    But on reflection we’ll see who was right?