Football violence provides occasion for racist attacks in city

The violence surrounding the Northern Ireland- Poland match has taken on an added dimension with the news that up to a dozen homes (reputedly occupied by ethnic minorities) were targetted in the aftermath of the game. The earlier violence has been partially blamed by the PSNI on ‘Polish Nationals’ intent on causing trouble. As this article prior to the visit of Poland to Dublin for a friendly international last year illustrates, Polish supporters have earned an unenviable reputation for football thuggery in recent years.
However, the rioting by Northern Ireland fans after the game and the attacks on ethnic minorities will require a proper investigation by the PSNI to see if any specific loyalist grouping was involved. There is no doubt that an element of the Poland travelling support were bent on causing trouble- as the rioting in Windsor Park after the side went three-one down- illustrates. But other actions- such as the inflammatory graffiti targeting Celtic and Poland goalkeeper, Artur Boruc, in the days leading up to the match, as well as the attack on the linesman, Tates Avenue rioting and attacks on ethnic minority households, suggests there was a loyalist element which sought to use the occasion of this match to stoke up tensions and create trouble.
Indeed, the incidents were reminiscent of events almost exactly a year ago, when a loyalist element was blamed on using the much anticipated Cliftonville-Linfield Irish Cup semi-final to raise sectarian tensions. Within hours of that match, a mob viciously attacked a number of people in the predominantly catholic Castle Street area, and it was also revealed that prior to the match, the Cliftonville Manager, Eddie Patterson, had been sent a bullet in the post.
Whilst the Sports Minister has sought to blame an element of the Polish fans for the trouble (apparently for possessing an Eirigi flag???) perhaps when the dust settles he- and others- will look at the matter with a more level head.
In any case, the violence should not detract from a result which finally gets the Northern Ireland campaign out of the start blocks. Sixty miles south, the performance of the Republic of Ireland side provided a sober reminder to the optimists that Trapattoni’s team are far from the finished article, and with Italy just ahead, the road to South Africa has just got a little rockier.

  • Reader

    Chris Donnelly: But other actions-…suggests there was a loyalist element which sought to use the occasion of this match to stoke up tensions and create trouble.
    So, while it all may look like mindless bigotry carried out by racist thugs, in reality it might be a cunning plan by loyalist masterminds to advance their well concealed political strategy?
    Nah.

  • al

    http://www.presseye.com/photolibrary/IUpload/280309JP3_030.JPG

    http://www.presseye.com/photolibrary/IUpload/280309JP3_031.JPG

    The Northern Ireland fans after the game were locals looking for a fight with the Poles. Don’t shit stir Chris

  • Driftwood

    As with the student ‘riots’ barely 2 weeks ago. There is one chief culprit here. Booze. People drinking all day and fighting shocka!

    As for the match,as a sort of ex amateur goalie, I actually felt some sympathy for Boruc after his howler,not a lot, but some. Can’t find it on youtube yet, but it’s sure to be an instant classic.
    Should be a good match on wed night, though the Slovakian fans fave a bit of racist previous.

  • skinbop

    Chris – “perhaps when the dust settles he- and others- will look at the matter with a more level head.”

    including yourself i may add.

  • Chris Donnelly

    So, while it all may look like mindless bigotry carried out by racist thugs, in reality it might be a cunning plan by loyalist masterminds to advance their well concealed political strategy?

    Reader

    Racist attacks in that part of Belfast suggest there is little ‘concealed’ about the strategy of some in the area.

    Oh, and I certainly wouldn’t label such individuals as masterminds.

    That doesn’t take away from the possibility/ probability that there was a co-ordinated dimension to the incidents that occurred, from the graffiti onward.

    Come to think of it, the alternative, that groups of unconnected individuals took it upon themselves to use the match and its unsavoury incidents as cover to launch attacks on ethnic minorities is actually a much worse proposition.

    As I’ve illustrated, there is recent form to suggest some elements within loyalism are willing to use local football matches to vent their sectarian/ racist fury on the unsuspecting.

    Some mightn’t like that fact, but there you go.

  • Reader

    Chris Donnelly: …strategy…co-ordinated…
    We aren’t disagreeing on issues of sentiment or principle here. It’s just that I don’t think there is a plan: racists, bigots, homophobes and vigilantes will all act up whenever circumstances offer them a smidgeon of cover.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done

    The political element to this is that Gregory the Great (if he has not already done so) should be condemning all those involved in the violence and not just the Poles. He will have to do a bit better than “I suspect and heard that there were further scenes of violence then immediately after the game.”

    There is a very right wing strain in loyalism which seems to support racist behaviour – the waving of a Republican flag was extrmely provocative but can never be used as a cover for racist attacks.

    P.S. Whenever (on Slugger) this is pointed out – it sparks off the most ridiculous series of arguements where various brands of Unionist inist that if loyalists are racist then republicans must be too.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done

    The political element to this is that Gregory the Great (if he has not already done so) should be condemning all those involved in the violence and not just the Poles. He will have to do a bit better than “I suspect and heard that there were further scenes of violence then immediately after the game.”

    There is a very right wing strain in loyalism which seems to support racist behaviour – the waving of a Republican flag was extrmely provocative but can never be used as a cover for racist attacks.

    P.S. Whenever (on Slugger) this is pointed out – it sparks off the most ridiculous series of arguements where various brands of Unionist inist that if loyalists are racist then republicans must be too.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Chris,

    Come to think of it, the alternative, that groups of unconnected individuals took it upon themselves to use the match and its unsavoury incidents as cover to launch attacks on ethnic minorities is actually a much worse proposition.

    But we can all sleep soundly in our beds, because Jimmy Spratt condemned the attacks “illogical”. It’s remarkable how unionists mince their words when describing an attack emanating from their own electorate, within weeks of loudly accusing Sinn Fein of the same. I think that is something for people to reflect on; why exactly Jimmy Spratt doesn’t want to offend a certain section of the population.

  • Fair Deal

    CD

    An commitment of almost Allisteresque proportions to find a deeper conspiracy. As someone who lives in the area (and had a mini-riot at his front door for a couple of hours) the impression I got was more a case of a brain-dead thuggish action leads to brain-dead thuggish reaction than paramilitary strategy – not that such a distinction makes any particular difference to the poor souls who have been attacked and intimidated.

  • danielmoran

    campbell’s attempt to blame it all on the poles, is only confirmation of his one sided view and proves [if proof were needed] that he’s totally unfit and too out of his depth to hold any office. sadly proof hasn’t been needed on that score for a long time.
    naturally, he avoided any mention of the coin throwing or the notorious famine song chants knowing that could only have come from his own side.

  • Frank

    The views of a N.I supporter commenting on his own experiences on Saturday – from the N.I supporters forum.

    However today I saw Northern Ireland fans beat a family to the ground, innocent Poles getting glassed, outside Hills several guys doing nazi signs attacking anything that moved and after the match some kind of Marshal law as paramilitaries took the area over with bats.

    I dont give a f**k about the Poles, Im not Polish. Im ashamed at some of our fans, some nasty people using football to vent their own hate and inner frustration out to any unlucky victim.

  • danielmoran

    to sammy mcnally msg 8…. all that happened on saturday only goes to prove my point. that is the some unionist pols and their loyalist fellow travellers don’t recognise any obligations to either the catholic community or equally outsiders to respect any of the said groups. the reason goes back all the way to partition.
    As they see it n.i. was created for them as protestants first and foremost which in practice means no need to respect basic democratic or civil rights. so the foreigners used to be the catholics, but that view is not supported by their london masters, they now take the same attitude to the outsiders.
    It’s that simple. SECTARIANISM IS REALLY ONLY COLOURBLIND RACISM

  • Peter Fyfe

    R.i.p. Artur Boruc

    It’s sad to see that 7 years after Lennon left the Northern Ireland set-up, it is still considered okay to paint death threats to Celtic players by some. Gregory seems more concerned with an erigi flag. Maybe Zaluska should have played, Boruc should not have been expected to play under such circumstances. He has looked quite steady any time he came up against the hoops this season. I know the poles have a reputation for football violence as we have saw in major international tournaments. Surely a death threat to one of their most highly regarded players only serves to inflame the situation though. Why was our sports minister not more vocal and assuring polish fans the people who express these sentiments are morons? It is a monumental failure by a minister in charge of our sports. Is it any suprise that most nationalists want nothing to do with The N.I football team?

  • Slugger O’Toole Admin

    USA

    FYI it was not Turgon who issued the red card – it was another moderator. Remember the ball not man rule.

  • Peter Fyfe

    USA

    Thanks for the warning but I don’t think I have done anything but point out what the expected actions of somebody in Gregory’s position should have been. Could you imagine graffiti appearing in Drumcondra or the inner city saying RIP Berbatov from a liverpool fan or RIP petrov from some birmingham or west brom fan? It would not happen but I guess that is the problem with a section of the N.I. support. Many Rangers players have played against Ireland in the past and other than boo’s when they touched the ball there was nothing to talk about. I personally would not worry about boo’s during the game, it is part of football and I am sure the Holy Goalie is well used to it by now. On the other hand death threats being painted on walls when visiting another country on international duty is a disgrace on the host nation. Though sadly unsuprising when seven years earlier Neil Lennon had to retire due to a sickening section of the N.I support. It is a shame that a section of the N.I support seem to percieve it as a sin to play in the famous hoops when we think of great names like Bertie Peacock, Charlie Tully and Martin O’Neill although only as manager. These are names that would bring a smile to any true Celtic or Northern Ireland fan’s face. Even in the current squad we have Paddy McCourt and Niall McGinn. What are they to think when a player they train with (in McCourt’s case, when he is not injured) is seen as fair game from a section of their home support?

    From the Independant

    A spokesman for the Sandy Row Rangers Supporters Club dismissed the graffiti as “probably the work of kids – the height of nonsense, to be disregarded.”
    He added: “I see they at least spelt Boruc’s name correctly, so I suppose that’s progress!”

    Why make a joke out off this? It is not normal for kid’s to paint death threats about international goalkeepers on walls in the weeks preceding internationals. This does not happen anywhere else as far as i know especially not between two teams with as little history as Poland and Northern Ireland. I hope UEFA consider the indifference taken to a threat on a players life when considering the punishment for assaulting a match official. It may serve as a wakening up call. Ignorance will breed bigotry after all. But congratulations to the overwhelming majority of northern Ireland fans on an excellent result. It is just a sad fact for them that gregory campell, who is supposed to be in charge of providing support for football in Northern Ireland, chooses to ignore the threats against an opposing team’s goalie and the assault of a match official. Any grown up minister would have told these people they blacken the name of the decent N.I. supporter and do them no favours. They should not return to windsor park if their idea of support is throwing coins.

  • Reader

    Peter Fyfe: They should not return to windsor park if their idea of support is throwing coins.
    Good news, then –
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/7972237.stm
    Let’s hope for a prosecution too.

  • Peter Fyfe

    reader

    Great news for decent Northern Ireland fans, good to see swift action.

  • “Was Boruc booed by the crowd?”

    Yes he was. As is every goalkeeper who plays at Windsor Park. It makes them do things like kick the air rather than the ball see?

    “Did the NI fans really sing the ‘Famine Song’ popular with Rangers fans?”

    No.

  • Frank

    Ckekov

    Regarding Boruc

    The level of sectarian abuse was vitriolic (but not surprising)

    http://timesonline.typepad.com/fanzine_fanzone/2009/03/and-to-think-th.html

  • I’ll go with the evidence of my own eyes and ears thanks.

  • Could you imagine graffiti appearing in Drumcondra or the inner city saying RIP Berbatov from a liverpool fan or RIP petrov from some birmingham or west brom fan?

    Painted death threats against Rooney have appeared sporadically in Merseyside.

    Not to excuse the racist/sectarian pricks who first painted them up, but what Mr Donnelly has omitted to inform us, is that a Sandy Row youth club took it upon themselves to later paint over the original crap.

  • Chris Donnelly

    oneill

    That’s good to hear regarding the actions of a Sandy Row youth club.

    Still, it doesn’t do your argument much good to suggest that there is a parallel between Rooney death threats and those directed at Boruc, given the number of attacks that followed on Polish- and other ethnic minority- individuals in the area.

    Perhaps away fans need also be reminded of the need to be “sensitive to constitutional realities” at Northern Ireland soccer matches….

    FD
    I like that Allisteresque line, btw. However, the sheer number of incidents would suggest a level of planning, however crude- as I stated above, there is clear form in this regard, and we’re not exactly dealing with masterminds either.

  • danielmoran

    i was watching both utv live and newsline last night, and could only come away with the impression that they had been taken over by the northern ireland supporters club. no mention was made on either programme of the chanting by n.i. fans of the notorious rangers song, normally directed at celtic fans but here adapted for the poles. in the case of utv, no mention was made of the coin throwing incident either. everything that happened was the polish fans fault according to utv. mind you, they have a long track record of this, but usually it’s bias against local catholics.

  • CD
    Still, it doesn’t do your argument much good to suggest that there is a parallel between Rooney death threats and those directed at Boruc, given the number of attacks that followed on Polish- and other ethnic minority- individuals in the area

    I don’t have an argument and haven’t drawn any parallels or made any justifications here.
    Someone pointed out previously that death threats against players aren’t painted on walls.
    They are.

  • Fair Deal

    CD

    “However, the sheer number of incidents would suggest a level of planning, however crude- as I stated above, there is clear form in this regard, and we’re not exactly dealing with masterminds either.”

    It doesn’t require the level of planning you seem to think to smash windows. Seeing what they hit and what they thankfully missed/didn’t hit undermines for me any claim of planning.

  • Chris Donnelly

    FD
    And the numbers of houses targeted? Not to mention the previous form?

  • Fair Deal

    CD

    When I see crowds of hoods standing in the street stoning peelers shouting how they are going to put all the Poles out while they are thankfully unaware that they happen to be directly outisde the homes of Polish families I have a difficulty in accepting a grand plan was in operation.

    Yes there is undoubtedly form on this however since the series of attacks in the village area the loyalist groups seemed to be trying to tidy up their act on the issue of racism and makes it odd that they’d suddenly switch back to attacks.

    I fully accept I could be wrong on this and maybe the IMC will comment in their next report but the impression I got as an eyewitness was not of planning.

  • picador

    FD,

    I appreciate what you say about the non-complexity of stone throwing. But attacks on up to a dozen homes do not just occur spontaneously. And nor do a dozen vehicle hijackings.

    Someone gave the word to this mob. Someone told them which houses to attack.

  • Peter Fyfe

    Painted death threats against Rooney have appeared sporadically in Merseyside.

    Posted by oneill on Mar 31, 2009 @ 09:24 AM

    Is Boruc from South Belfast? Is Rooney a visiting international footballer to Merseyside? I am not saying death threats against Rooney are okay but they are not similar to the Boruc threat alluded to in this thread. Fair play to the youth club that did clean up the graffiti, they showed they are more responsible than gregory.

  • Peter Fyfe

    Someone pointed out previously that death threats against players aren’t painted on walls.

    Posted by oneill on Mar 31, 2009 @ 10:40 AM

    I pointed out I could never recall death threats being aimed at opposing internationals when they came to visit. The fact I also mentioned death threats being painted about Neil Lennon shows you are trying to misrepresent me by ignoring this fact.

  • Peter Fyfe,

    Your memory’s failing you, this is what you said:
    Could you imagine graffiti appearing in Drumcondra or the inner city saying RIP Berbatov from a liverpool fan or RIP petrov from some birmingham or west brom fan? It would not happen but I guess that is the problem with a section of the N.I. support.

  • I am not saying death threats against Rooney are okay but they are not similar to the Boruc threat alluded to in this thread.

    So, there’s a “hierarchy” of death threats now?

  • a.c.reader7376

    danielmoran msg 11. N. IRELAND FANS. OF COURSE, BUTTER WOULDN’T MELT. it’s glaringly obvious the the utv and bbc n.i. reporting on saturday’s events at the match were determined to keep under wraps any footage showing up n.i. fans, including the brawl in the bedford st. pub. anybody would think that this sectarian ifa and the linfield bigots had the support of most people living in the north. which is far from the truth.
    you would expect nothing better from our so called culture miniter who has a long track record of this, but the broadcasters are supposed to be impartial. what a joke.

  • Peter Fyfe

    Oneill

    Do you think it was just a coincidence I named two Bulgarian Internationals when Bulgaria were visiting Croke? How did this not trigger with you even after you quoted it?

    I see you didn’t quote when I mentioned Lennon as this would show you are wrong in the context you took my statement.

    So, there’s a “hierarchy” of death threats now?

    There is a clear difference from somebody in Merseyside posting graffiti about somebody from the area and to what was posted about Boruc. In Boruc’s case, he was a visiting international Goalkeeper in the world’s most watched sport and Northern Ireland’s most watched sport. It was not an event of non-significance, for people in Northern Ireland to treat a visiting player like this is a shame on Northern Ireland. People in Liverpool can deal with Wayne Rooney graffiti, this is a blog on Northern Ireland politics and culture.

  • Do you think it was just a coincidence I named two Bulgarian Internationals when Bulgaria were visiting Croke? How did this not trigger with you even after you quoted it?

    I see you didn’t quote when I mentioned Lennon as this would show you are wrong in the context you took my statement.

    No, honestly, I got your drift exactly.
    Two anonymous (and if you know for certain they’re NI fans, then you’ll also undoubtedly know their identity, go to the PSNI) scumbags paint up threats to two Celtic players- under that well-known legal principle of…what exactly? “Collective responsibility”?
    That also makes me as a Northern Ireland fan, completely disinterested in the sectarian cesspool of Glasgow football, also a guilty party in this whole sorry affair.
    Correct me if I’ve got that wrong.

    And while you’re at, perhaps point out how you’d expect me/us to prevent such things happening in the future?

    So, there’s a “hierarchy” of death threats now?
    There is a clear difference from somebody in Merseyside posting graffiti about somebody from the area and to what was posted about Boruc.

    I really must be thick, I still don’t get that “clear difference”.

    Looking at it from a victim’s point of view, a death threat’s a death threat- whether you’re a fat,ugly Honorary Manc Barsteward or a fat, useless Celtic goalie, yes or no?

  • Peter Fyfe

    Oneil

    Miss my point again, did we? I pointed out I respect the overwhelming majority of NI fans and realise they have nothing to do with this. I pointed I thought it was a disgrace somebody did not apologise on behalf of NI to a visiting International. It must be shown that the morons who paint graffiti like this do not represent anybody. While im at it, I will point out again it should be up to the minister in charge to condemn these actions and hopefully through leadership show that whoever painted the threats that their actions are not welcome.

    And once again back to why I feel more need to be concerned with a death threat being painted on a wall in Northern Ireland against a visiting international who would be playing in the area. Internationals are meant to be a time of representing one’s country. It is about sportsmanship that one must respect opponents. Maybe it is hard for a Northern Ireland fan to understand when they see no problem with threats against their own players. I suppose it should not suprise me.

    And if you got my drift exactly about the Bulgarian internationals, did you choose to ignore for the sake of arguing with me?

  • Miss my point again, did we?

    No, having read this little latest gem, further confirmation I’ve understood you exactly:

    Maybe it is hard for a Northern Ireland fan to understand when they see no problem with threats against their own players. I suppose it should not suprise me.

    End of story from this end.

  • Peter Fyfe

    So the truth about Neil Lennon ends this arguement, I don’t see how but there we have it. Your arguement with me was about you misquoting, nothing else son. Don’t pat yourself on the back over this.

  • Frank

    Looks like both sets of supporters were involved in the trouble in Witherspoons prior to the Polish game, although you can’t tell who threw the first punch.

    Pretty sure it isn’t a Polish fan throwing the chair through the window at the end of the clip.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d28_1238448226

  • eranu

    think that guy with the chair at the end probably felt a bit of a tool. all the people fighting had been pushed out the door and he was left with an unused chair in his hands. the only manly thing to do ofcourse is to break something with it. if he just set it down he would be a big girls blouse. idiot.

  • Realist

    NORTHERN Ireland goal scoring legend David Healy has called on attacks on local Polish people in the Village area of South Belfast to stop. A number of attacks have taken place since the trouble at the weekend.

    He said: “It saddens me to hear of the attacks on Polish people. I sincerely hope those responsible, stop it immediately. In Northern Ireland we must learn from the past, violence is never acceptable. I fully support all the good Community Relations work going in this area. At a time when we are trying to qualify for a World Cup, perhaps it would be better if we could all see a bigger picture, that the Polish community and others in Belfast, are to be welcomed and their contribution to our social and economic prosperity acknowledged and encouraged.”

    Maciek Bator, from the NI Polish Association, said: “David Healy is a true sportsman and great ambassador for Northern Ireland football. We greatly appreciate his message of support. Local Polish people living here in Northern Ireland were sickened by the actions of the Polish football hooligans who travelled here to cause trouble. We want to contribute to Northern Ireland in a meaningful way and we value the friendship and support of our neighbours.”

    One Small Step Campaigner, Trevor Ringland added: “We want those from Poland and elsewhere to see Northern Ireland as their “second” team while living here and come to Windsor.”

  • Realist

    PAT PRAISES SANDY ROW COMMUNITY CENTRE
    27/03/2009
    Northern Ireland Goalkeeping legend, Pat Jennings, today praised the community in Sandy Row and in particular the young people from the Sandy Row Community Centre for the quick response they took removing sickening graffiti in relation to the Polish Goalkeeper Artur Boruc.

    The sinister words, “Boruc RIP”, appeared on walls in the Sandy Row area of South Belfast on Thursday ahead of the Northern Ireland V Poland World Cup qualifier at Windsor Park on Saturday. However young people from Sandy Row were quick to paint over the graffiti and condemn the culprit responsible for it.

    Samuel Hillerby from the Sandy Row Youth Association said, “Whoever did this graffiti does not represent our community and is no Northern Ireland Football Fan. We painted over this because we want to welcome all the Polish Fans to Belfast and we want to make sure we show our community in the right light. We will be keeping an eye on the area to make sure there is no repeat”.

    Northern Ireland Football legend Pat Jennings, said, “I would like to praise the Sandy Row Community Forum, all the Volunteers at the Sandy Row Community Centre and in particular the young Northern Ireland Fans from the area who were instrumental in painting over this sinister graffiti. The IFA’s Community Relations team has informed me of the good cross community and intercultural work that goes on in the area and I wanted to add my support to those people who are taking such positive action. The young people who ensured this sickening graffiti was painted out are a credit to their community and as true Northern Ireland Football Fans we value their support”.

  • Realist
  • Peter Fyfe

    Realist

    It is great to see Healy come out to condemn these attacks on polish people living Northern Ireland. Pat Jennings is also right to praise those young people from Sandy Row who painted over the graffiti. Northern Ireland need more young people like this. Pity one or two of our politicians did not act the same. Gregory would rather point to an erirgi flag and ignore any problems at home.

  • Realist

    “Pity one or two of our politicians did not act the same”

    Isn’t it just a pity.

    Interestingly, not one senior politician bothered to turn up at the pre Poland match community event that was happening just as the thugs started smashing Wetherspoons about – it was at this community event that I got a call to tell me about the mayhem in the City Centre.

    Whilst hooligans caused havoc, many Northern Irish and Polish fans were enjoying a “Respect Through Football” day at Crusaders FC.

    Nothing but handshakes, and kind words, at that.

  • Frank

    Realist

    I am not sure why you are posting a three year old link about Polish hooligans. It was clear that a small number of hooligans travelled to cause trouble.

    According to news reports following the incident at Witherspoon’s on Bedford Street, ‘Polish fans’ wrecked the bar. The footage shows an altercation between rival fans and I believe it started when a Northern Ireland fan assaulted a Polish fan. Polish fans went to protect their compatriot and a row ensued with a couple of chairs being thrown before the windows were broken by Northern Ireland fans. If the bar was badly damaged, it was not by Polish fans.

    I am more concerned with the balance of reporting by the media regarding the trouble before and after the game. I saw no news reports on ordinary Polish fans with their kids being attacked by Northern Ireland supporters on the Lisburn Road, as was mentioned by Northern Ireland fans on their own website.

    I commend those who organised the event at Seaview, although it must be disappointing that so few turned up at the meet-up.

    Pat Jennings is obviously well aware of the cancer of intolerance of racism and sectarianism having been subjected to it himself by his own fans during his international career – so fair play Pat.

    Mr Healy is also well aware how ‘playing a flute’ or talking about ‘famines’ can be seen as being inflammatory, perhaps he could have a word with Mr Feeney regarding his own inflammatory remarks before the Polish game, although the ‘Little Ibrox’ remarks certainly worked the crowd up to give Boruc a ‘sectarian night to remember’ & helping him to have a nightmare game – Result!

    The fact that the UDA had mobilised in the Sandy row & Village areas on Friday prior to the game shows that pre-planning was part of the game plan for both sets of supporters.

  • Realist

    Polish “fans” in action – October 2008. Slovakia.

  • Realist

    “worked the crowd up to give Boruc a ‘sectarian night to remember’ & helping him to have a nightmare game”

    You should refer the comments attributed to Warren Feeney to a ceratain journalist in the Sunday Life – a friend of Warren Feeney’s.

    You perhaps missed Warren Feeney’s comments to the Sunday Times in this regard?

    Anyway – Artur is now an immortal Northern Ireland legend.

    Look – these Northern Ireland fans think he’s top bloke!

    Ohhh – I bet that hurts! 🙂

  • Frank

    Polish ‘fans’ in action – November 2008. Dublin, Ireland.

    No arrests, no fighting, no sectarianism or racism, no calls by home players to intimidate visiting players, no death threats painted on walls around Croke Park, no hooligans, no home supporters and paramilitaries organising and marshalling residents around croke Park to put ethnic Pole’s out of their homes, no Polish supporters (with their families) being set upon by home supporters on their way along the Drumcondra road..need i go on??

    Not sure what your point is Realist ?

    Chalk and Cheese !!

  • Realist
  • Realist

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/polish-hooligans-planned-riot-1690826.html

    I hope none of these Polish fans, complete with Eirigi flag,from Dublin and Scotland, were amongst those drinking in Republican bars in Belfast before the mayhem ensued.

    Chris,

    What time did these attacks in Belfast “hours” after last years Irish Cup semi-final take place?

  • padraic

    [i]I hope none of these Polish fans, complete with Eirigi flag,from Dublin and Scotland, were amongst those drinking in Republican bars in Belfast before the mayhem ensued.[/i]

    Not very good for ‘amalgamation’ I’ll admit.

  • Realist

    “Not very good for ‘amalgamation’ I’ll admit”

    What do you mean padraic?

    By the way – do you uphold the right of people in a local community to defend themselves (with violence, if neccessary) from violent gangs, or not?

  • Frank

    Realist

    It looks like Northern Ireland fans wrecking the bar to me

    And i would presume that Northern Ireland fans burning Polish scarves is hardly likely to help the situation.

  • So the truth about Neil Lennon ends this arguement, I don’t see how but there we have it.

    Your “truth: that “Maybe it is hard for a Northern Ireland fan to understand when they see no problem with threats against their own players”

    If you sincerely believe that, then have the courage of your convictions, remove that “maybe”, and send me that “truth” again on my email address. Get yourself a decent solicitor while you’re at it.

  • That message above is for Mr Fyfe.

  • Realist

    Yes, Frank – I am well aware of the Youtube footage of the incidents in and around Wetherspoons.

    You seem to have ommitted to post another video of events inside the bar, which might throw a different “slant” on matters – I wonder why?

    Well, actually, I don’t really.

    You are one of those who uses the actions of a small minority to demonise the overwhelming majority.

    In some perverse way, you use this as a sad comfort blanket to justify your own deep rooted prejudices – these prejudices against Northern Ireland fans are regularly displayed on the pages of this forum.

    You delve around Northern Ireland fans websites, cherry picking posts for dramatic effect to support your agenda.

    Facts that are inconvenient to your case, are simply ignored.

    You have decided, for whatever reason, that Northern Ireland fans = bad lads.

    In other words, to support Northern Ireland is some kind of dishonourable thing to do.

    Let me tell you straight Frank – I, and thousands of other Northern Ireland fans, am unapologetic about our support for the Northern Ireland team – we are immensely proud of our team, and happy with how things are panning out it this group.

    The overwhelming majority of our supporters are fantastic ambassadors for Northern Ireland – as continuely recognised by police forces throughout Europe.

    There is no history of Northern Ireland fans being involved in organised hooliganism abroad – compare and contrast with the Poles.

    Football hooliganism is a worldwide problem – on this occassion, it visited Belfast in the form of organised Polish fans, intent on gettng a “result” off the pitch, to enhance their reputation as being amongs Europe’s “elite” troublemakers.

    I would suggest to you that your need to try and demonise an entire group, on account of the actions of a small minority, is bigotry in it’s most basic form.

    Are you deluded enough to honestly believe that this continued demonisation of the Northern Ireland team and it’s supporters will somehow make us go away???

    We’re not Frank – get over it!

  • Kensei

    Realist

    No murders.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0228/drimnagh.html

    Forgive me, I appear to have missed the even tenuous connection to football there….?

  • Realist

    kensei,

    Good people, and bad people, exist in all spheres of society.

    Polish fans, and Northern Ireland fans, are no exception.

    Indeed, bad elements exist within the fan bases of almost every football team.

    The continued strategy to demonise Northern Ireland fans, on account of the actions of a small minority, serves no purpose….except to expose the base bigotry of those perpetrating the “campaign” against the Northern Ireland team and it’s supporters.

    You have made no secret of your desire to see the demise of the Northern Ireland team. You have not hidden the fact that the reasons for this are politically motivated.

    It is the “tenuous” linkage, ie tarring all with one brush, that is doomed to failure.

    You are an unapolgetic republican, I am an unapologetic Northern Ireland fan.

    If you wish to tenuously link me, and the overwhelming majority of decent Northern Ireland fans who simply want to watch our football team do their very best against other international football teams,be minded that two can play that “tenuous” link game.

  • Kensei

    Realist

    Good people, and bad people, exist in all spheres of society.

    Polish fans, and Northern Ireland fans, are no exception.

    Indeed, bad elements exist within the fan bases of almost every football team.

    Sorry Realist, “bad people are everywhere” will not fly. It is to ignore the relative incidence and to downplay the problem. Which you like to do. Posting a link to murders of Polish people away from football has no bearing here. In a lets-trade-murders fight, NI does not come off particularly well even with the crime problems in Limerick and Dublin.

    The continued strategy to demonise Northern Ireland fans, on account of the actions of a small minority, serves no purpose….except to expose the base bigotry of those perpetrating the “campaign” against the Northern Ireland team and it’s supporters.

    I find keeping the pressure on people demonstrating bad behaviour is the best way to get them to change it, Realist. I went up to the Bot to watch the Republic that night with a friend. I’d prefer not to run the risk of walking through a riot.

    You have made no secret of your desire to see the demise of the Northern Ireland team. You have not hidden the fact that the reasons for this are politically motivated.

    Explain to me how what a United Ireland is anything other than politically motivated? Is it possible for it not to be politically motivated? I suppose you could say it’d increase the chancesof the team doing well, which I would agree with but really do you have a point. International sport is inseparable with politics to some degree; otherwise it wouldn’t make sense to talk of the pride of playing for your coutnry, would it?

    Do you actually have a point or are you just trying to raise the “keep politics out of sport” straw man?

    If you wish to tenuously link me, and the overwhelming majority of decent Northern Ireland fans who simply want to watch our football team do their very best against other international football teams,be minded that two can play that “tenuous” link game.

    If Northern Ireland fans are involved in serious clashes with other teams, that is not a tenuous link. That is an actual link. Sorry. If they are serially involved in incidents, then they have an actual problem. Which Northern Ireland obviously did, since you’ve had to spend so much time trying to sort it out. Perhaps you might want to focus on that, rather than trying dubious syllogisms.

  • Realist

    kensei,

    “I find keeping the pressure on people demonstrating bad behaviour is the best way to get them to change it”

    I agree. That’s why Northern Ireland fans will continue to try and bring pressure to bear. Those demonstating bad behaviour, don’t give two hoots what you, and others who seek the demise of the Northern Ireland team, think or do.

    “I went up to the Bot to watch the Republic that night with a friend. I’d prefer not to run the risk of walking through a riot”

    I’m sure the Northern Ireland fans who went to The Bot to watch the Northern Ireland game were similarly minded.

    Perhaps some also recall the loutish “antics” of, so called, Republic Of Ireland fans in the vicinity of said establishment during the WC in Japan.

    “Sorry. If they are serially involved in incidents, then they have an actual problem.”

    Thing is – they’re not “serially involved”. Compare and contrast with a minority of “supporters” of the visiting country that day.

    “Which Northern Ireland obviously did, since you’ve had to spend so much time trying to sort it out”

    Sorry – you’ve lost me.

    Can you advise me when Northern Ireland fans were last involved in serious disorder of the nature we witnessed Saturday week ago?

    “Explain to me how what a United Ireland is anything other than politically motivated? Is it possible for it not to be politically motivated? I suppose you could say it’d increase the chancesof the team doing well, which I would agree with but really do you have a point. International sport is inseparable with politics to some degree; otherwise it wouldn’t make sense to talk of the pride of playing for your coutnry, would it?”

    Eh?

    Trust me kensei, if your repeateded campaign of demonisation against the Northern Ireland team and it’s supporters is indicative of how you propose to “unite” (sic) Ireland, you’re barking up the wrong tree and doomed to failure.

    Maybe that penny will drop with you some day.

    Northern Ireland fans have no desire for our team to “unite” with anyone – be that the Republic Of Ireland, or the rrest of the United Kingdom.

    Our wee team is doing just fine….no help required.

    Tell me this… those professing to be republicans (United Irelanders) have been involved in serious street disorder in recent days – as an unapolgetic republican, are you linked kensei?

  • Kensei

    Realist

    I agree. That’s why Northern Ireland fans will continue to try and bring pressure to bear. Those demonstating bad behaviour, don’t give two hoots what you, and others who seek the demise of the Northern Ireland team, think or do.

    Actually last time we demonstrated that you do and it does have an impact. It took 6 pages. I don’t believe it will take long this time: if you don’t why spend so much time on it, Realist?

    I’m sure the Northern Ireland fans who went to The Bot to watch the Northern Ireland game were similarly minded.

    They seemed to be quite happy to cheer Bulgaria on, though. Quite uncomfortable given the behaviour earlier in the day. A lot of alcohol consumed already by that stage. Would they start trouble? A bit of a worry.

    They didn’t. But that’s the impact of a few bad eggs, boss.

    Perhaps some also recall the loutish “antics” of, so called, Republic Of Ireland fans in the vicinity of said establishment during the WC in Japan.

    I have no recollection of serious rioting. Certainly not whataboutery levels in any case.

    Can you advise me when Northern Ireland fans were last involved in serious disorder of the nature we witnessed Saturday week ago?

    Don’t follow it that closely. There was trouble on planes somewhere, I think. Certainly acusations of sectarianism. I’m a simple man, I just lump it all in under “bad behaviour”.

    Thing is – they’re not “serially involved”. Compare and contrast with a minority of “supporters” of the visiting country that day.

    They seem to get an awful lot of bad press, strangely.

    Trust me kensei, if your repeateded campaign of demonisation against the Northern Ireland team and it’s supporters is indicative of how you propose to “unite” (sic) Ireland, you’re barking up the wrong tree and doomed to failure.

    I have no campaign. I don’t start these threads, I just baulk at some of the more incredulous uses of whataboutery, Realist. Like the one I highlighted.

    Tell me this… those professing to be republicans (United Irelanders) have been involved in serious street disorder in recent days – as an unapolgetic republican, are you linked kensei?

    Comparison is invalid. I’m not a member of any of the groupings, nor am I a student. You might as well ask as I am a human, do I bear responsilibity for war. You however, are a Northern Ireland fan and member of a supporters club IRC. It’s very unfair, but it only takes a small percentage to build a rep.

  • Realist

    kensei,

    “Actually last time we demonstrated that you do and it does have an impact. It took 6 pages. I don’t believe it will take long this time”

    Honestly, really, true bill etc – the people who engaged in this trouble don’t give two hoots what you think, or do.

    “They seemed to be quite happy to cheer Bulgaria on, though”

    No shit Sherlock?

    So what?

    Do you think everyone has to like the Republic Of Ireland football team?

    Plenty of Republic Of Ireland supporters were wanting the Poles to beat Northern Ireland.

    They want everyone and anyone to beat Northern Ireland. They hate the Northern Ireland team, passionately. Good for the goose?

    Yourself included, perhaps?

    Was it you enquired about tickets on here for the Poland end?

    Just so as you’d feel safer, like. 🙂

    “They didn’t.”

    Enough said.

    “I have no recollection of serious rioting.”

    Neither do I – merely loutish behaviour by a few unsavoury, pissed up, uber republicans, professing to be Republic Of Ireland “supporters”. You know the type…you get them on both sides.

    “Don’t follow it that closely”

    Put it another way – have we had Danny Dyer or Ross Kemp over to do programmes about our hooligan “firms” – as both have done in Poland?

    Answer = No! Why? = because there is no story.

    “There was trouble on planes somewhere”

    Yip, 5 pissed up individuals, heading to a Northern Ireland game, decided to make a plane journey a misery for the rest of their fellow passengers – mainly Northern Ireland fans.

    I remember that happening with another set of fans quite recently too. Best not go there tho.

    Ever been away with Leeds kensei?

    “They seem to get an awful lot of bad press, strangely”

    Not strange at all. When there is a campaign to see your demise, it is expected that an element of the media will be extremely hostile. Some of it pure lies – ask the Scottish NOTW. Their lies about Northern Ireland fans cost them a few quid.

    “Comparison is invalid”

    No, it’s not. On the contrary, it is absolutely valid.

    Those causing the trouble are republicans. They share the same ultimate objective as you. They support a “United”(sic) Ireland. They also shoot Poles.

    Are you guilty by association, or not?

    “It’s very unfair, but it only takes a small percentage to build a rep”

    You said it.

  • Frank

    ‘You seem to have ommitted to post another video of events inside the bar, which might throw a different “slant” on matters – I wonder why?’

    Realist I can’t find any other video.

    The videos all show Northern Ireland supporters smashing up the bar, throwing chairs through windows and firing bottles, glasses and any other objects they can get their hands on.

    Perhaps the videos were manufactured by your enemies, who designed a exact replica of Witherspoon’s pub in a secret film set in deepest West Belfast.

  • Realist

    “Realist I can’t find any other video”

    There’s a surprise “Frank”.

    Andytown News miss it too?

  • Kensei

    No shit Sherlock?

    So what?

    It’s somewhat impolite in bar half packed with Republic supporters. Why exactly should they automatically be against? I have a soft spot for some other international sides and am mostly neutral.

    Do you think everyone has to like the Republic Of Ireland football team?

    Why do they have to dislike them? Why do they cheer the opposition in a bar where there are a lot of Republic supporters? Needlessly antagonistic. I certainly would not have been cheering Poland’s goals had I been there.

    Plenty of Republic Of Ireland supporters were wanting the Poles to beat Northern Ireland.

    Sure. I would equally dislike them to be cheering for the Poles in a mixed bar. I always makes me feel tense.

    They want everyone and anyone to beat Northern Ireland. They hate the Northern Ireland team, passionately. Good for the goose?

    Yourself included, perhaps?

    I was happily ambivalent to NI until they started making an issue of which country Irish citizens play their football for. Until that is finally sorted I am happy to see them get beat.

    Was it you enquired about tickets on here for the Poland end?

    Nope.

    Neither do I – merely loutish behaviour by a few unsavoury, pissed up, uber republicans, professing to be Republic Of Ireland “supporters”. You know the type…you get them on both sides.

    So not equivalent to the serious rioting that went on Saturday then? Or the targeting of people’s homes? Thanks, got it.

    Put it another way – have we had Danny Dyer or Ross Kemp over to do programmes about our hooligan “firms” – as both have done in Poland?

    Answer = No! Why? = because there is no story.

    Ah, so no Ross Kemp so its alright then. Gotcha.

    I remember that happening with another set of fans quite recently too. Best not go there tho.

    I don’t support Sellick, so its meaningless. The difference there would be though — Celtic dn’t have a rep.

    Ever been away with Leeds kensei?

    Once when I was a young dude at Villa. I can barely recall it. Leeds had a fairly big problem in the 80’s but they largely cleared it up. I would be happy to acknowledge that NI have gone a fair distance. But it would be fairly hard to say they are anywhere near the finishing like when there is this incident or that incident every other game.

    Unlike, you know, even England fans recently. Or indeed the Republic. The attempts to deflect and downplay is really what disappoints me the most.

    Not strange at all. When there is a campaign to see your demise, it is expected that an element of the media will be extremely hostile. Some of it pure lies – ask the Scottish NOTW. Their lies about Northern Ireland fans cost them a few quid.

    Ah. It’s all an evil republican plot. Keep taking the tablets.

    No, it’s not. On the contrary, it is absolutely valid.

    No, it’s invalid. How long do you want to do this?

    Those causing the trouble are republicans. They share the same ultimate objective as you. They support a “United”(sic) Ireland. They also shoot Poles.

    I really want a United Ireland so no (sic) required. Is this the new version of your strange use of inverted commas?

    In any case the syllogism is so broad and tenuous it remains an insane suggestion. I support universal healthcare; the Labour party supports universal health care; therefore I support every policy of the Labour party. Run similar x 100. Doesn’t work.

    I’m not personally accusing anyone of guilt by association. People should judged on their own merits. But groups also form reputations. If people said “there is a group of NI supporters in a bar”, what do they think? Does it make them less likely to go there or apprehensive? All I’m saying.

    You said it.

    Thankfully there is a clear distinction between 1. mainstream republicans and dissident 2., randomers who have no connection with any political party and SF members. So I don’t have to worry.

  • Realist

    kensei,

    “It’s somewhat impolite in bar half packed with Republic supporters. Why exactly should they automatically be against?”

    Some Northern Ireland suppoerts don’t like the Republic Of ireland team. Some Republic Of Ireland supporters don’t like the Northern Ireland team. Them’s the facts.

    “Why do they have to dislike them?”

    I guess the same question could be asked of many supporters about their rivals – in many sports.

    “I certainly would not have been cheering Poland’s goals had I been there”

    Just inwardly perhaps?

    “I was happily ambivalent to NI until they started making an issue of which country Irish citizens play their football for. Until that is finally sorted I am happy to see them get beat.”

    It is sorted. Want a ticket for the Slovakia game?

    “So not equivalent to the serious rioting that went on Saturday then?”

    I don’t think there was any maurading supporters of the opposition in the vicinity at the time.

    “The difference there would be though—Celtic dn’t have a rep.”

    No – of course they don’t. 🙂

    “but they largely cleared it up”

    Leeds? Are their notorious “firms” out of business?

    “I would be happy to acknowledge that NI have gone a fair distance”

    Gee – thanks!

    “Unlike, you know, even England fans recently”

    Yeah – angels.

    “Or indeed the Republic”

    Sure, “bad behaviour” doesn’t exist there.

    “No, it’s invalid. How long do you want to do this?”

    As long as you like.

    “I really want a United Ireland”

    I know.

    “But groups also form reputations. If people said “there is a group of NI supporters in a bar”, what do they think? Does it make them less likely to go there or apprehensive? All I’m saying”

    The Slovenian fans couldn’t wait to get in the bars with Northern Ireland fans last Wednesday night – thoroughly enjoyed themselves too. Great night with them last Tuesday also.

    Plenty of photos of same too – “Frank” will maybe post them. 🙂

    “Thankfully there is a clear distinction between 1. mainstream republicans and dissident 2., randomers who have no connection with any political party and SF members. So I don’t have to worry.”

    Indeed – one set does exactly the same what the other set used to do, and still make no apology for.

    My offer to you stands kensei – you can be my guest at the next Northern Ireland game. We can have a few pints before the game, mingle with some Slovakian fans, and sit side by side at the game. You can then come on here and report your experiences.

    Oh, I forgot – you wouldn’t want to deprive a supporter of a ticket, or….have your prejudiced perceptions shattered.

    Ah well!

  • Frank

    ‘The Slovenian fans couldn’t wait to get in the bars with Northern Ireland fans last Wednesday night – thoroughly enjoyed themselves too. Great night with them last Tuesday also.’

    Plenty of photos of same too – “Frank” will maybe post them. 🙂

    Did the Slovenians enjoy all the sectarian ‘Party tunes’ being played in the NI theme bar on the Lisburn Road before the match?

    Perhaps this elusive video footage you mention is being produced as we speak at ‘Uncle Andy Productions’ in Sandy Row.

    Is it true that the fans have arranged a ‘who can throw a chair through a plate glass window competition’ for the next home game?

  • Realist

    I see you been snooping around that NI Fans site again Frank – you seem to do a lot of that, in your quest for “information”.

    Funny that you use threads where disapproving Northern Ireland fans express their opinion to, er, demonise Northern Ireland fans.

    Such is your desperation.

    If you want to play “website revealations”, I’m your man.

    Not much point though, as all it prove is that sectarian bigots exist within the fanbases of several teams – and it is not exclusive to one side of the community.

    I believe that people who go blind in one eye when looking at these issues, are bigots.

    Rather than give yourself an ulcer in your quest to justify your own base bigotry, would you not be better just relaxing, and educating yourself -with a John O’Kane book?

  • Kensei

    Realist

    Some Northern Ireland suppoerts don’t like the Republic Of ireland team. Some Republic Of Ireland supporters don’t like the Northern Ireland team. Them’s the facts.

    Simply stating “thems the facts” doesn’t make it right.

    I guess the same question could be asked of many supporters about their rivals – in many sports.

    I wasn’t aware we were “rivals”. NI seems largely unconcerned with Scotland ro Wales.

    Just inwardly perhaps?

    Which is the polite way of doing it.

    It is sorted. Want a ticket for the Slovakia game?

    No, the IFA are still “looking for clarification”. Despite being told repeatedly. No, I have

    No – of course they don’t. 🙂

    In fairness, the rep they have is fairly clean. Not perfect by any stretch but in terms of supporter trouble it would be highly unfair to lump them with say, Rangers.

    Leeds? Are their notorious “firms” out of business?

    In common with a lot of Premiership clubs in the 90’s a lot of work was done to eliminate hooliganism. I doubt very much they are out of business, and there has been the odd bit of trouble especially since we got into our current predicament but trouble makers get banned. It’s nothing like the 80s.

    Yeah – angels.

    Have to be fair. There was a time after every game and at every tournament there was reports of trouble. That has largely stopped.

    Sure, “bad behaviour” doesn’t exist there.

    Well if it isn’t reported and no one complains, it is sopmewhat hard to develop a rep.

    The Slovenian fans couldn’t wait to get in the bars with Northern Ireland fans last Wednesday night – thoroughly enjoyed themselves too. Great night with them last Tuesday also.

    Everyone else though…

    Indeed – one set does exactly the same what the other set used to do, and still make no apology for.

    Just as well they are still not doing it, then. And given I have no connections to any organisation, it still doesn’t concern me.

    Oh, I forgot – you wouldn’t want to deprive a supporter of a ticket, or….have your prejudiced perceptions shattered.

    Ah well!

    I don’t. I’d find it tough to stand for GTSQ and cheer on NI, regardless of how nice the people are and that would be impolite. I also don’t drink, and don’t like being around a shedload of people I do not know on my own. I don’t have “perceptions” to shatter. I doubt much happens inside the ground.

  • Realist

    kensei,

    “Simply stating “thems the facts” doesn’t make it right”

    Down with football (and sporting) rivalries. Do you disagee with my assertion about some mutual disliking amongst Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland fans?

    Do you think this sporting rivalry thing is unique to this part of the world? 🙂

    Did all those Leeds men sing things like “I do love the Villa”?

    “I wasn’t aware we were “rivals”. NI seems largely unconcerned with Scotland ro Wales.”

    Run that by me again – you’re unaware that two teams on the same island might be rivals?

    Wales, Scotland and England are most certainly rivals of Northern Ireland.

    I believe many Republic Of Ireland fans would consider England to be one of their main rivals also.

    You do understand the concept of sporting rivalry, don’t you??

    “No, the IFA are still “looking for clarification”. Despite being told repeatedly”

    They can “look for clarification” all they want -you, and I, know the answer will be the same. We’ve debated this aspect before, and are basically in agreement on it.

    “Have to be fair. There was a time after every game and at every tournament there was reports of trouble. That has largely stopped.”

    You need to do a bit more research.

    By the way, there is football related violence in England every weekend….and in numerous other countries throughout Europe. There’s even a bit of a “football factory” wanabee thing going on in the Republic Of Ireland these days. Honest.

    “Everyone else though…”

    What do you mean by “everyone else”?

    “Just as well they are still not doing it, then. And given I have no connections to any organisation, it still doesn’t concern me.”

    But you support their ultimate objective?

    “I don’t. I’d find it tough to stand for GTSQ and cheer on NI, regardless of how nice the people are and that would be impolite.

    Can’t say I found it “tough” standing for the National Anthem of the Irish Republic when I last attended one of their games – I just did it.

    Nobody was asking you to cheer Northern Ireland -just to attend a game, and report your findings to Slugger.

    “I also don’t drink, and don’t like being around a shedload of people I do not know on my own. I don’t have “perceptions” to shatter. I doubt much happens inside the ground.”

    But yet – you go to bars, with a “shedload of people” you don’t know in them to watch football?

  • skullion

    Realist

    Given all the reports that Windsor is no longer a sectarian bearpit can you explain to me why Boruc was abused unmercifully from the first whistle.What had he done to upset the overwhelming majority of the N.I supporters?

  • Kensei

    Down with football (and sporting) rivalries. Do you disagee with my assertion about some mutual disliking amongst Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland fans?

    Oh sure. Do you believe it is in NI’s best interest, given the politcal makeup here?

    Do you think this sporting rivalry thing is unique to this part of the world? 🙂

    I don’t think this has much to do with sport.

    Run that by me again – you’re unaware that two teams on the same island might be rivals?

    Yup.

    Wales, Scotland and England are most certainly rivals of Northern Ireland.

    They don’t seem to get the same ire as we get though. Personally, I have a soft spot for Scotland.

    I believe many Republic Of Ireland fans would consider England to be one of their main rivals also.

    Rivals? Nah. They are unfortunately too good; “rivals” suggests some sort of equality. I just like seeing them get beat.

    You do understand the concept of sporting rivalry, don’t you??

    I don’t think it is very sporting in this instance, Realist.

    They can “look for clarification” all they want -you, and I, know the answer will be the same. We’ve debated this aspect before, and are basically in agreement on it.

    I remain nervous that FIFA as and until FIFA passes a resolution that shuts the IFA up.

    By the way, there is football related violence in England every weekend….and in numerous other countries throughout Europe. There’s even a bit of a “football factory” wanabee thing going on in the Republic Of Ireland these days. Honest.

    We are talking about the international game. I don’t hold NI fans responsible for the behaviour of Linfield supporters.

    But you support their ultimate objective?

    I have a sincere hope that an asteroid would land on my house tommorow. I asusme taht si the same with the majority of the populace of the planet. do I have to answerfor all their actions?

    Besides, objectives aren’t methods.

    Can’t say I found it “tough” standing for the National Anthem of the Irish Republic when I last attended one of their games – I just did it.

    Important point here. That’s you. As opposed to you know, me. Perhaps you don’t feel your political allegiances quite so keenly. Which is fair enough, but not entirely relevant. I would not feel happy doing it, which should be enough for you.

    But yet – you go to bars, with a “shedload of people” you don’t know in them to watch football?

    I went with a friend. We assumed it would be mostly Republic fans but there were a lot of Northern Ireland fans still at that point. If I hadn’t been with my friend, I wouldn’t have been in the bar on my own. I have known said friend for about 16 years, and longer than I have known anyone else I’m still in contact with. You don’t see the distinction from a randomer on the interent, I don’t know, could stab me and has wildly divergent political views?

  • Democratic

    Looks like the usual crowd won’t let this one die…..don’t youse get bored of having the same argument every time the Northern Ireland football team makes the news……I have to say though it is somewhat bewildering to note Kensei’s bemusement as to why many NI supporters like to see the Republic team get beat when he himself makes no secret of his “well-wishing” to the Windsor crowd…..
    What is it about the Northern Ireland football team that so irks Slugger O’Toole’s nationalist contingent more so than virually any other topic? – In fact it appears that most of them spend more time making comment on the IFA team than they ever have on the ROI team they purport to follow…..it certainly does appear to me that many would love nothing more than the NI team to be scrapped….obviously though this will never happen while the NI state exists and no NI supporter will realistically opt for a Rugby style arrangement/fudge so why waste the time and energy?

  • Realist

    skullion.

    Artur was treated no differently to any other visiting goalkeeeper.

    He is now a Northern Irish legend.

    He’s “Ulster’s Number 1”

    “Frank” (our resident YouTube and Fans Forum specialist) will provide the YouTube footage to prove it.

    If your insinuation is that he got special treatment because he is a Celtic player – there was a Celtic player in the victorious Northern Ireland squad.

    If your insinuation is that Artur got special treatment on account of his religious beliefs – several players sharing the same religious beliefs as Artur were in the Northern Ireland squad…including the Captain who led us to an excellent victory.

    You have to admit though – Artur is a bit of a rocket. 🙂

    I lap him up.

  • skullion

    Realist

    You are anything but one

  • Realist

    kensei,

    “Do you believe it is in NI’s best interest, given the politcal makeup here?”

    Do you believe it is in the best interests of “United” (sic) Irelanders to demonise Northern Ireland fans at every little opportunity?

    Do you think that furthers your dream of a “United” (sic) Ireland team?

    “They don’t seem to get the same ire as we get though.”

    Aww – how sad. Pot, kettle, black.

    “Rivals? Nah. They are unfortunately too good; “rivals” suggests some sort of equality. I just like seeing them get beat”

    You do your favourites a great disservice. Their record against the “saxon foe” is quite impressive. Even little Northern Ireland beat them, last time we played. Ever heard about David & Goliath.

    Personally,I just love Northern Ireland being the underdog.

    I’d quite fancy the Republic Of Ireland to get one over England at present.

    “I don’t think it is very sporting in this instance, Realist”

    What do you think it is kensei – interesting comment from a man who confesses that his interest in these matters in primarily political, rather than sporting.

    “I remain nervous that FIFA as and until FIFA passes a resolution that shuts the IFA up”

    Your ignorance is quite startling. I’d have thought you’d have wanted the FIFA Statutes to remain exactly as they are?

    “We are talking about the international game”

    England fans were involved in trouble with riot police in Seville, less than 2 months ago.

    “do I have to answerfor all their actions?”

    Apparantly thousands of decent Northern Ireland fans have to answer for the actions of a few.

    Same rules not apply?

    “Perhaps you don’t feel your political allegiances quite so keenly”

    I’d imagine I’m every bit as patriotic as you are.

    Bizarrely, for all your adversions to the people you wish to be “united” (sic) with, it’s you who claims to be a “United” Irelander.

    “I would not feel happy doing it, which should be enough for you”

    Oh, don’t worry – I get the picture.

  • Realist

    “You are anything but one”

    Sorry skullion – your caustic wit is lost on me.

    What do you mean?

  • Kensei

    Democratic

    I have to say though it is somewhat bewildering to note Kensei’s bemusement as to why many NI supporters like to see the Republic team get beat when he himself makes no secret of his “well-wishing” to the Windsor crowd…..

    I am not bemused. Just aware it is nothing to do with football, and not particularly good for an NI team claiming to try to attract nationalist support.

    obviously though this will never happen while the NI state exists and no NI supporter will realistically opt for a Rugby style arrangement/fudge so why waste the time and energy?

    Realist always takes the bait.

  • Democratic

    “I am not bemused. Just aware it is nothing to do with football, and not particularly good for an NI team claiming to try to attract nationalist support.”
    That’s a double-edged sword for your lot too Kensei – especially for yourself as a Republican…..though you are right – it isn’t really anything to do with football – for your lot too of course…..
    For me the holier-than-thou, sneering, anti-unionist, anti-NI views of many of the ROI supporters I have known, who make little secret of the fact that they would have my team dissolved without a second thought tends to skew my well-wishing to Trap’s boys funnily enough!
    Nothing religious I hasten to add in case you are labouring under such an assertation…
    As for such views amongst the NI fanbase being “unhelpful” in the current political climate – well, quite frankly……

  • Kensei

    Do you believe it is in the best interests of “United” (sic) Irelanders to demonise Northern Ireland fans at every little opportunity?

    Depends. In general? No. If they are doing soemthign bad and it pressures them to change behaviour? Yes.

    I’d say you’d have a bigger problem, though — the Republic isn’t risking half its potential support, and a big whack of their potential palyers.

    Do you think that furthers your dream of a “United” (sic) Ireland team?

    I am not naive enough to believe that a United (no really, no sic required) team will occur before political reunification. So it is largely irrelevant.

    Aww – how sad. Pot, kettle, black.

    You do your favourites a great disservice. Their record against the “saxon foe” is quite impressive. Even little Northern Ireland beat them, last time we played. Ever heard about David & Goliath.

    Still no. Play 1000 games and England will come out comfortably ahead of either Ireland. Obviously, I like them beat by us even better but the pretence we are on the same level smacks a bit of Spurs being a rival to Arsenal. Arsenal don’t care any more. United, Liverpool are their rivals. It is only residual resentment.

    I’d quite fancy the Republic Of Ireland to get one over England at present.

    Capello is doing a worryingly good job. At home? Possibly. Away? It would be a minor miracle to win, given our record.

    What do you think it is kensei – interesting comment from a man who confesses that his interest in these matters in primarily political, rather than sporting.

    I never said that. I just said politics cannot be separated from international sport, especially here.

    Your ignorance is quite startling. I’d have thought you’d have wanted the FIFA Statutes to remain exactly as they are?

    Yes. With the relevant body rubberstamping the interpretation. Which I believe they were schedukled to do?

    England fans were involved in trouble with riot police in Seville, less than 2 months ago.

    Really, missed that one. Definitely lower profile.

    Apparantly thousands of decent Northern Ireland fans have to answer for the actions of a few.

    Same rules not apply?

    Life’s a bitch.

    Bizarrely, for all your adversions to the people you wish to be “united” (sic) with, it’s you who claims to be a “United” Irelander.

    I have no aversion to the people, Realist. I am reasonably confident you won’t stab me. But the symbols and supporting something diametrically opposed to my politics is another thing; I don’t see any other position I can take and not be a hypocrite.

    Oh, don’t worry – I get the picture.

    You don’t though. It takes me a while to get comfortable around new people. Meeting a randomer on the internet I have only argued with for a period of several hours sounds like hell, frankly.

  • skullion

    Realist

    You are anything but a realist.Not all visiting goalies are abused at Windsor.I’ll give you a couple of examples using your closest rivals Scotland and Wales.I don’t remember Andy Goram getting the Boruc treatment whilst playing for Scotland although the fans did take a dislike to the Scottish capatain Paul mcStay.Nor did the Welsh goalkeeper Paul Jones experience any abuse palying for Wales although the welsh centre forward John Hartson took some unmerciful abuse for some reason.

  • Democratic

    “Not all visiting goalies are abused at Windsor”
    They are in my experience Skullion to be fair especially the last few years – You Fat b@stard is ever the jibe of choice – and Boruc had little defense against such a charge the other week you must admit!
    Be more that surprised if Paul Jones didn’t get any vs Wales – Certainly Robbie Savage of wales took flak at the time too before he wrapped it up!
    When was the Goram game you are referencing out of interest?

  • Realist

    “For me the holier-than-thou, sneering, anti-unionist, anti-NI views of many of the ROI supporters I have known, who make little secret of the fact that they would have my team dissolved without a second thought tends to skew my well-wishing to Trap’s boys funnily enough!”

    Nail hit on the head Democratic.

    I get torn on the issue though – I know many Republic Of Ireland fans whom I would classify as good friends, and feel good for them when their favourites do well.

    In fairness, they acknowledge the hatred that exists amongst a section of the Republic Of Ireland’s fanbase for all things “Northern Ireland”, and are quite embarrassed by it.

  • Realist

    “Be more that surprised if Paul Jones didn’t get any vs Wales”

    He got plenty.

  • skullion

    Democratic

    No visiting goalkeeper has experienced the abuse Boruc got the other day.Ffs Mark Robson on commentary referred to him as the ‘notorious’ Polish keeper.Because Boruc has issues with Rangers f.c and their support should mean diddly squat to supporters of Northern Ireland.

  • Realist

    Skullion,

    When did Goram play against Northern Ireland?

  • Democratic

    “Because Boruc has issues with Rangers f.c and their support should mean diddly squat to supporters of Northern Ireland.”
    That is true Skullion – i’ll give you that – there is a cross over though as you know – just as there is with Celtic/ROI – not being an “Old Firm” type I wouldn’t have them about me personally.
    I like to think that those with personal issues with Boruc at Windsor (and yes they existed all right – I won’t lie to you!)did so in their capacity as Rangers supporters rather than NI supporters – this of course would not excuse any sectarian taunts – I myself heard nothing sectarian or religious per se – but it was pretty obvious he got it tougher than usual from the Rangers mob (normally stationed in the Kop)because of his “issues” as you state playing for Celtic in the Old Firm.

  • Democratic

    However it must be said too that the Windsor support knew Boruc would be easy to wind up and get a rise from – and we all seen where that led -gamesmanship of such kind is not uncommon at Windsor these days either – you are entitled of course to your own views on such practices but there you go.

  • Realist

    skullion seems to forget the “issues” some Republic Of Ireland supporters have had with Rangers players playing against them in recent times – including one they thought played for Rangers, but didn’t! 🙂

    I wonder does he recall the website set up by Republic Of Ireland fans, “Okay2boo”, justifying this sort of behaviour?

    Presumably skullion would be rerasonable enough to conclude that if it’s “Okay2boo” Rangers players, then it’s OK to boo Celtic players?

    Or – perhaps that’s another one of those (many) things were it only cuts one way?

  • skullion

    Realist

    Not in the slightest.You will be disappointed to learn that i take merely a passing interest in ROI team and if that’s what some of their supporters are getting up to then its only right that you highlight it and show them up to be be the sectarian little pricks that they are.You too should also be big enough to accept that a large swathe of N.I supporters are their mirror image.

  • skullion

    Realist

    When did Goram play against N.I?I can’t remember exact dates i don’t have footballing equivalent of Wisden to hand but i’ll do the necessary work and dig it out.If i’m wrong i’ll be man enough to come on here and apologise to you.

  • skullion

    Realist

    My apologies the goalie in question was Alan Rough but it was a long time ago and he was such a bad keeper i would imagine the fans were too busy laughing to be bothered booing.Don’t know if its relevant but he also had a real dodgy barnet.You know the one where you ask for a Rod Stewart but end up with a Rod Hull.

  • Democratic

    “My apologies the goalie in question was Alan Rough but it was a long time ago and he was such a bad keeper i would imagine the fans were too busy laughing to be bothered booing.”
    LOL – I think that exactly mirrored the progression of the recent Poland game as far as Boruc was concerned too!

  • skullion

    Democratic

    How very true.

  • Realist

    “My apologies the goalie in question was Alan Rough but it was a long time ago and he was such a bad keeper i would imagine the fans were too busy laughing to be bothered booing.Don’t know if its relevant but he also had a real dodgy barnet.You know the one where you ask for a Rod Stewart but end up with a Rod Hull.”

    No problem skullion.

    I remember Mr Rough well – and his dubious haircut. lol.

    Artur’s, rather strange, neck tattoo is also in the dubious category.

  • Peter Fyfe

    Oneill

    You seem a bit touchy there, I notice you threaten me with the law. I thought it would be much easier to show me I was wrong by saying how disgusting the treatment of Lenny was. Are the words to hard to say?