Youth charged over Police murder

BBC reporting that the 17-year-old youth has been charged with Constable Carroll’s murder.

Confirmed by other sources too.

BBC’s take:

The youth is also charged with having a firearm with intent to endanger life and membership of a proscribed organisation, the Continuity IRA.

He is to appear at Lisburn Magistrates Court on Tuesday morning.

The 17-year-old also faces a further charge of collecting information likely to be of use to terrorists.”

From website.

Comment:

Whilst it is good to see someone charged (he obviously remains innocent until proven guilty) this individual, up to his neck in charges is only 17 years-of-age! Is this the new, up and coming future generation of Northern Ireland? A generation that avoided all the violence and mayhem?

  • groundhog day

    i preferred the possibility that the response was sarcastic

    i don’t doubt that someone held for so long and tortured would be “rehabilitated”, but even “democratic” hit the nail on the head when he recognised that this type of rehabilitation radicalises more than it rehabilitates

    as i was calling for radicalisation earlier, i guess i can’t complain

  • joeCanuck

    this type of rehabilitation radicalises more than it rehabilitates

    Let me throw the whole thing back to you then. What proof/evidence do you have for that statement.

  • picador

    TAFKABO

    They don’t know anything either. They just like to pretend that they’re living in Nazi Germany.

    Someone stiffed a cop. And the cops want to find out who did it. It wouldn’t happen in any other country.

  • groundhog day

    are you serious??

    the evidence is everywhere. the guantanamo project directly used and honed the techniques used here during the height of the conflict (the hooded men, castlereagh, long kesh), and we saw what those type of conditions brought. It was the most important factor in the radicalisation of the nationalist people in the north.

  • TAFKABO

    Fuck me, is there no situation that self absorbed Irish republicans wont appropriate for their own little pity party?

    Aye that’s right, Guantanamo was the end result of Long Kesh, sure didn’t they even use Orange jumpsuits in order to further humiliate the inmates?

  • Dec

    Idon’t know whether this person is innocent or guilty but I do know that nothing makes me more suspsicious of someone’s guilt than when the usual suspects start on one of these smoke and mirrors exercises, as seen in this thread.

    TAFKABO

    And the Northern Bank robbery threads?

  • picador

    I am deadly serious. I just saw Heinrich Himmler and Reinhardt Heydrich driving through the centre of Belfast in an open car. They were laughing.

  • joeCanuck

    the evidence is everywhere

    Where? Should I be talking to the dogs in the street?

    It was the most important factor in the radicalisation of the nationalist people in the north

    Nonsense. It was things like the Falls Road curfew, murder on Bloody Sunday etc.

    I think this part of the thread has outlived its usefulness. I think that, as well as punishment, deterrence to others etc, incarceration should be used as an opportunity to make an attempt at rehabilitation. You and Democratic disagree. Nothing further to say, I believe.

  • joeCanuck

    I just saw Heinrich Himmler and Reinhardt Heydrich driving through the centre of Belfast in an open car

    And you did bugger all about it? Shame on you.

  • Dec

    I just saw Heinrich Himmler and Reinhardt Heydrich driving through the centre of Belfast in an open car.

    Doubtful. Whilst they maintained a strong working relationship, both personally disliked the other man. And there’s no ‘t’ in Reinhard.

  • groundhog day

    TAFKABO

    it is well documented that the British government experimented with interrogation on prisoners, in an attempt to find out the effectiveness of various torture techniques, and at what point did torture victims start giving false information to try and end the torture. those who were experimented upon were known as the hooded men. Their treatment mirrors exactly the treatment that was handed out at guantanamo, albeit not over such a long period.

    the hunger strikes and the resistance demonstrated in long kesh is well known throughout the world. the americans’ design of camp delta was specifically designed to prevent inmates organising along similar lines.

    it has nothing to do with republicanism claiming any part of the guantanamo legacy, but those using the methods of torture co-operate on much more of an organised scale than those opposing them. If only they would co-operate and learn the counter-productive effect that such tactics has?

  • percy

    Taf
    I’d forgotten about the orange- jumpsuits, clear evidence of the tyrannical protestant ascendancy extending its arm of influence into the utopia that is Cuba.

  • joeCanuck

    Now, that sort of behaviour definitely radicalizes people (well, some), not attempts at rehabilitation.

  • groundhog day

    JoeCanuck

    as far as the sustained campaign to brutalise prisoners over years, i’d say it was an equal or greater recruiting factor for republicanism than the curfew or even bloody sunday which themselves were isolated events, although they were all important. not that it matters

    the point is that if the state uses repressive methods, and i include extended detention and farcical trials in this description, that it perpetuates the resistance against the state

    i’d say the republicans have come out of the past two weeks considerably stronger than they went into it

  • groundhog day

    and by isolated events, i don’t detract from the many other similar events that occured as part of british policy

  • Lurgan

    AFAIK the AK47 was recovered in Pinebank and the youth was arrested from his home in Ardowen, he isn’t who I believe to be the ‘gun mover’. I’ve heard a few stories doing the rounds about these maniacs and you would be shocked at the stupidity, so I’m not surprised that charges have been brought.

  • groundhog day

    what happened to the other person (37 year old) arrested at the same time as the 17 year old, was he not due to be released or charged (or have his detention extended to 21 days) today?

    any news?

    also, leave granted in the judicial review

    http://www4.u.tv/news/LocalNews/index.asp?id=94820&sel2=1&local=1

  • redeye

    > I do hope that the charge is evidence-based rather than confession only.

    He was caught with an assault rifle & 26 rounds of ammunition, and refused to speak to police throughout the duration of his 13 day detention.

  • groundhog day
  • roiman

    Old malcontents are using kids to do the dirty work and do the time.

  • groundhog day

    he wasn’t “caught with” an assault rifle, 26 rounds of ammunitions, or anything else. He has been accused of possession of certain items, along with other charges. We don’t know where the items were found, but it is not likely that they were found on his person or in his house.

    Most of these kind of cases involve police finding items in nearby sheds or wasteland, and they usually have to withdraw the charges when they can’t prove that the person had anything to do with them.

    lets lay off the trial by media

  • hartshill

    He was caught with an assault rifle & 26 rounds of ammunition, and refused to speak to police throughout the duration of his 13 day detention.

    Posted by redeye on Mar 24, 2009 @ 03:55 PM

    Was he really? If so why was he not charged before now? Such hard evidance and still they keep a minor for 13 days before chargung him! You don’t think the rifle might have turned up somewhere else after his arrest and do you accept the possibility that he may have nothing to do with the rifle? The right to silence is a given, he would have been told by his solicitor not to answer and silence is no indicator of guilt. finally, do you think there is any need for a trial at all seeing as you have convicted him?

  • Lurgan

    The 37 yr old a Mr B Mc Conville is still being held though the police have been at his house (searching I presume) almost on a daily basis.

  • joeCanuck

    The right to silence is a given

    I thought they essentially did away with that over there, and a Jury now can draw an inference from the silence?

  • Lurgan

    He wasn’t caught with the rifle, the rifle was recovered from a garden of a house in Pinebank that had just been rented out to a woman on the same day, it’s possible she was arrested also.

  • redeye

    finally, do you think there is any need for a trial at all seeing as you have convicted him?

    Posted by hartshill on Mar 24, 2009 @ 04:21 PM

    No, no point in wasting money on a trial for these scumbags. Send the wee shite to Bagram and make an example of him for all I care, and let the rest of us live in the relative peace that we have been enjoying of late.

  • groundhog day

    JoeCanuck

    A jury (or more likely a judge sitting by himself in political cases – do we have to start that again??) can draw an inference from a person’s silence.

    But that doesn’t mean the right to silence has gone. the court can only draw the inference if there is other evidence (it can’t rely on silence alone).

    It only comes into play if you fail to mention something that you later try to rely on in court, although there is a separate inference if you fail to testify.

    It comes from the Criminal Evidence Order 1988, section 3.

    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1988/Uksi_19881987_en_1.htm

    the important point is however, that the court can only draw an inference. What that inference is will depend on the circumstances. So in circumstances where a detained person can’t consult with a solicitor because of a lack of confidentiality, they would ask the judge not to draw any inference that the accused was guilty.

    Similarly if there were issues over mistreatment, or perhaps extended detention!! A person could say that their concentration was negatively effected and that they didn’t want to risk saying something unreliable.

    the introduction of the inference had managed to make it difficult for suspects to stay silent if there was any evidence against them, but yet again the actions of the state in undermining basic rights by bugging consultation rooms and extending detention has actually undermined their own effectiveness when it comes to questionning suspects.

  • joeCanuck

    Groundhog,

    Yes, I understood that. That’s why I said “essentially”.
    Also I was just double checking that that was in N.I. rather than here in Canada. Memory plays tricks on me, sometimes.

  • Modernist

    No, no point in wasting money on a trial for these scumbags. Send the wee shite to Bagram and make an example of him for all I care, and let the rest of us live in the relative peace that we have been enjoying of late.

    Posted by redeye on Mar 24, 2009 @ 04:57 PM

    Redeye thats a sickening comment. I hope you made it out of hand otherwise I think you yourself need some sort of rehabilitation. Rendition/Torture is in no way morally or legally defensible, unless of course you’re the sort of degenerate that loves seeing people tortured and executed. Moderator please remove/edit redeye’s and my comment where appropriate

  • joeCanuck

    No, no point in wasting money on a trial for these scumbags. Send the wee shite to Bagram and make an example of him for all I care, and let the rest of us live in the relative peace that we have been enjoying of late.

    Posted by redeye on Mar 24, 2009 @ 04:57 PM

    And then they came for me.

  • groundhog day

    bbc are reporting that the 37 year old has been charged

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7962252.stm

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Maybe, as an Irish republican, he did not recognize the authority of a foreign court to question him. I mean, what is their state apparatus doing in our country anyway. Bloody thieves.

  • groundhog day

    innocent until proven guilty and all that, but you gotta laugh at his previous, “novelty value”, hilarious

    http://fenian32.livejournal.com/4445567.html

  • joeCanuck

    So, a policeman is murdered and, a couple of weeks later, 2 people are charged with the murder. This is an excellent piece of police work IF one or both of these people are actually guilty.

    A young man in South Armagh is brutally beaten to death, with as many as 10 people involved, and almost a year has passed, and no-one has been charged.

    Spot the difference. What gives?

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Nearly as hilarious as collecting data on Fenians and keeping bullets in your desk,eh?

  • groundhog day

    the attorney general is useful for something then!!

    The sentences that loyalists get are a joke. They also get bail remarkably easily.

  • groundhog day

    JoeCanuck

    the 17 year old made no admissions, you can be sure that the more experienced mcconville didn’t either.

    the guns and ammunition were found at various locations around craigavon.

    so what was the basis of the arrests?

    i’d say that the police were aware of the location of the weapons for a long time and had them under observation, but decided not to bring anyone in to build up their intelligence. the same intelligence (rather than any evidence) that is likely to form the basis of the charges, with the hope that their investigations will turn up some real evidence

    there’s the difference

    VERY BIG IF anyone is convicted, and the true intelligence picture comes out, then questions will have to be asked if the killing could have been prevented by earlier action.

    god bless them, they can’t win whatever they do

  • joeCanuck

    Well, Groundhog, we’ll just have to wait and see. I said IF too.
    How long does it take over there these days before a serious crime goes to trial? It seemed incredibly long before the Northern Bank case got to trial.

  • picador

    BBC are reporting that the 37 year old has been charged

    Is that the Great Leader or the Dear Leader?

    i’d say that the police were aware of the location of the weapons for a long time and had them under observation, but decided not to bring anyone in to build up their intelligence. the same intelligence (rather than any evidence) that is likely to form the basis of the charges, with the hope that their investigations will turn up some real evidence

    Sorry but was this kind of speculation not supposed to be dangerous?

  • groundhog day

    IF duly noted. i’d have to disagree with your analysis of it being an excellent piece of policework though.

    If it could have been averted, then its bad policing and asks more questions about the age-old problem of intelligence handling. And as the operation has further alienated more nationalists then it is bad politically as well.

    as i said before, only one group comes out of these couple of weeks stronger

  • groundhog day

    i admit that its speculation, but how’s this kind of speculation dangerous?? Its not suggesting that anyone is guilty of a crime, well apart from suggesting a wee bit of possible police collusion. But sure collusion doesn’t get punished under the law, and nobody’s been charged with that yet, so i don’t see the harm

  • groundhog day

    and i’m suggesting in the strongest possible terms that those accused are NOT guilty, so again, no harm done

  • Has anyone looked into the possibility as to whether or not any of the blame for our current regretable situation can be attributed to Gerry Adams? I think it’s blatantly obvious that it van for he is the Devil’s Own, the Great Unwashed Antichrist. I propose to carry out just such an invrstigation for I truly am the Lamb of Revelation and Unadulterated Goodness.

  • picador

    I think I understand why you call yourself groundhog day.

    Rocky Horror would similarly have reflected the timewarp factor.

    As for your claims that nationalists have been alienated I would agree albeit with a different slant – the overwhelming majority are sickened at the antics of CIRA/RIRA and the forthcoming elections will reflect that.

  • groundhog day

    of course its Adams’ fault!! He gave up the armed struggle, gave away all the weapons and started to support the police. If he’d stuck to the original plan we’d have a peaceful united ireland by now and nobody would be shooting police officers.

    thank you for bringing this clarity to the discussion john

  • groundhog day

    picador

    no doubt that the vast majority of nationalist people will vote PSF or SDLP. The violence that they are really sickened by is the PIRA violence that they recall and fear going back to.

    The point i’ve been trying to make is that the police reaction to the killings will increase the number who do not support the new attempt at statehood, as the response itself is based on bigotry, sectarianism and securocracy.

    If there is to be real progress towards peace, there will have to be some acknowledgment that the continuing violence, although it has little support at the current time, is political in nature and the measures adopted to deal with it will have to be measured and in keeping with the highest of human rights standards. Otherwise we will get stuck in a timewarp, or however you want to put it.

    I see nothing so far to show me that we’re not in the same position that we were in in 1916 before the rising, after the 1921 Treaty, the end of the civil war or at the end of Operation Harvest. At all stages public support for continued armed sruggle was minimal. It is perhaps more minimal than it ever has been, but it is growing, and it will continue to manifest itself until the problem is resolved.

    It is only when the state has truly changed its nature that the groundhog will come out and we will get our spring. Unfortunately i’m preparing myself for another six weeks of winter.

  • U R

    No, no point in wasting money on a trial for these scumbags. Send the wee shite to Bagram and make an example of him for all I care, and let the rest of us live in the relative peace that we have been enjoying of late.

    Posted by redeye on Mar 24, 2009 @ 04:57 PM

    And then they came for me

    …and The Ballymurphy Seven

  • groundhog day

    ok, so after the Treaty there were still a fair few people who supported armed struggle, but you get what i’m saying

    i’m away back underground, good night

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  • dear o dear

    the amount of wierdos on this blawg is staggering. seriously!

  • Henry Higgins

    Lots of people who can’t spell too. Now that’s weird.

  • Lurgan

    Give me spelling mistakes over papist plots etc any day.

  • skinbop

    slugger never fails to deliver as promised.
    hopefully there will be a return to capital punishment for crimes like this – as in most other civilised countries.

  • Gerry Adams confirmed to me last night in a telephone call that [b]he[/b] is to blame for ALL the world’s evils. Rejoice! For this truly means that the day of reckoning will soon be upon us! Who will join me in my quest for truth for I am the Lamb of Eternal Goodness? Rejoice! Repent! Rejoice! Repent!

  • U R

    ‘Hopefully there will be a return to capital punishment for crimes like this – as in most other civilised countries’

    …Ballymurphy Seven, Pat Kane, Guildford Four, Danny McNamee, Birmingham Six, Judith Ward, Maguire Seven, Christy Walsh etc,etc,etc…

  • Rory (South Derry)

    John

    Gerry Adams confirmed to me last night in a telephone call that he is to blame for ALL the world’s evils. Rejoice!

    CAN WE GET A CROSS AND NAIL HIM TOO IT!!!!!

  • Teletubbies, teletubbies. Say. Eh. Oh. Eh-oh!

  • NoName

    skinbop,

    That was a totally inappropriate remark to make about anyone. If you don’t subscribe to the idea of innocent until proven guilty, heaven help you if you are ever wrongfully accused.

  • picador

    I have heard that the CIRA are looking for a new leader for their Craigavon unit.

    Any takers?

  • redeye

    The point i’ve been trying to make is that the police reaction to the killings will increase the number who do not support the new attempt at statehood, as the response itself is based on bigotry, sectarianism and securocracy.

    Spewed by groundhog day on Mar 24, 2009 @ 08:43 PM

    So, let me get this right. You would preferred them NOT to have arrested anyone, or carried out any searches? Those pesky police, abusing all those poor criminals human rights.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Picador

    Does that mean that you are accusing someone in Custody of being the Former Leader!

    VERY VERY Dangerous ground a chara!

  • horse eye

    The point i’ve been trying to make is that the police reaction to the killings will increase the number who do not support the new attempt at statehood, as the response itself is based on bigotry, sectarianism and securocracy.

    Posted by groundhog day on Mar 24, 2009 @ 08:43 PM

    NEWSFLASH!! Police reaction to crime upsets criminals!

  • picador

    Ah Rory, just the man!

    I had a word with the geriatics down in Limerick and, unless someone madder comes along within the next 24 hours, you have the position.

    Congratulations!

  • picador

    Rory,

    Does that mean that you are accusing someone in Custody of being the Former Leader!

    No. YOU said that.

    To whom were you referring?

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Picador

    The Geriatric in Limerick – To whom do you refer?

    And secondly

    I accuse no one – the Brits and you are capabale enough of that!

    I stuggest you get stick and stones mate – they might help your boring case!

  • picador

    The Geriatric in Limerick – To whom do you refer?

    If I told you that I’d have to ….

    Oh, never mind. Sir Terry Wogan.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Picador

    I will be carrying out enquiries immediately

  • picador

    When he does the Eurovision Song Contest it is a just cover for buying guns.

  • TAFKABO

    When he does the Eurovision Song Contest it is a just cover for buying guns.

    – a cover

    + a good reason

  • FoodMeister

    COME ONE, COME ALL
    LET’S FEED THE TROLL.

  • An Lorgain

    picador I hope yer man can also steal drugs and deal them and has a good knowledge of rifles.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    An Lorgain

    No but I am sure PSF could give him lessons after all they do it in Cabra in North Dublin now and they have robbed a big bank in the last few years to keep themselves in suits

    GET A LIFE YOU CLOWN!

  • An Lorgain

    I can’t comment on what PSF get up to in Dublin but I do have some knowledge on what the CIRA get up to round here and trust, if I know then so do many others including it would seem the police.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    An Lorgain

    Name names publically if you are so sure – cause I am sure the Sunday Rags in the North would assist you!

    Being a traditional republican I hate Drugs and think the scumbags should be nutted even if they are our own!

  • CSI NI