Time to go.

Bishop of Cloyne Bishop John Magee has accepted responsibility for dangerous child protection practices after a report by the NBSC, found the Cloyne diocese had failed vulnerable children

The report did not investigate the allegations of child sex abuse , but investigated how the Diocese of Cloyne handled the allegations. The report examined two cases, of credible child sex abuse against two priests in the diocese and again according to theIrish Examiner one of its conclusions

was that children “have been placed at risk of harm… through the inability of that diocese to respond appropriately… It failed to act effectively to limit the access to children by individuals against whom a credible complaint of child sexual abuse was made”. In any man’s language that means that the diocese, headed by Bishop Magee, did not do what they should have done to protect innocent and vulnerable children.

Pete notes the Churchs view point.

Your report seriously wrongs the Diocese of Cloyne and our committee. Therefore, if you issue this report in its present form or include its distortions in your forthcoming annual report, we shall have no choice but to seek remedies in either ecclesiastical or secular courts or both.

Bishop Magee as Bishop of Cloyne is responsible for how the diocese handled the abuse allegations. Since this report has been published there is considerable anger and there has been calls for his resignation. One priest has walked from Cobh to Dublin in atonement for clerical child sexual abuse. The Bishop shows no sign of resigning…

  • Earnan

    He should be stripped of his priesthood and exiled

  • lorraine

    for too long the predatory priests of the catholic church have been treated as a special case where the full rigors of the law are most definitely not applied. child abusers should have no hiding place, and those who try to shield them from the justice system should similarly be pulled before the courts and shamed in the public eye.

  • dunreavynomore

    Lorraine
    Exactly! No hiding place.

  • Cloyne, Kathleen, not ‘Cloynes’.

    In C of I terms it is part of Cork, Cloyne and Ross Diocese.

  • Rory Carr

    If this old priest managed to walk all the way from Cobh to Dublin without one person stopping to give him a lift it certainly shows that either the clergy have really fallen in people’s esteem or Irish car owners have got awful precious since the days when a fellow could hitch-hike the length and breadth of the country – with a fridge!

  • Oilifear

    There must be some law against this? Surely no-one can simply choose not to report so serious a crime to the Gardaí? Surely no-one can instruct his staff to do what they can to obstruct investigation by the appropriate authorities? Surely such a person would be disbarred from working in child education for the safety of children? Surely this is 2009 not 1959? Surely the Catholic Church is not above the law or scrutiny by the civil authorities?

  • Rory Carr

    …and surely cows don’t still jump over moons.

  • Kathleen

    Cheers horseman.

  • cynic

    The problem is just that. The Church (or its leaders) still believe that Canon Law is supreme and that they are not accountable to secular law of the states in which the Church operates. Mostly they just moved the problem priests offshore where they were ‘no longer available’ and hoped the noise would all die down.

    In the past they also relied heavily on family pressure telling victims families that sure he/she must have led the poor father on. Warning that they would bring the church into disrepute, they would be damned for ever and their reputations destroyed if they complained or publicised the crimes against them. That, of course, was just another layer of abuse.

    The Church can be such a force for good in society and it had seemed that past lessons had been learned. Apparently not.

    The only way to address this is to make it absolutely clear legally that there is a duty to report and it’s a criminal offence if you don’t! And that has be backed up by police action – something shockingly absent in the past.

  • Dave

    If you read the full report from Ian Elliott (Chief Executive Officer for the National Safeguarding Board for Children, Catholic Church in Ireland) you can’t come to any other conclusion other than that it should be mandatory for all reports of child sexual abuse made to the Church to be immediately referred to the Gardai. The Church, which has a vested interest, should have no discretion whatsoever.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “The law of the emperors cannot dissolve the ecclesiastical law.”
    (Idem, Decreti, pars i. distinct. x. can. i.)

    “Constitutions cannot contravene good manners and the decrees of the Roman prelates.”
    (Idem, Decreti, pars i. distinct. x. can iv.)

    “It is not lawful for a layman to sit in judgment upon a clergyman. Secular judges who dare, in the exercise of a damnable presumption, to compel priests to pay their debts, are to be restrained by spiritual censures.”
    (Decreti, Gregorii, lib. ii. tit. ii. cap. i. ii. vi, and Sexti Decret. lib. ii. tit. ii.cap. ii.)

  • Pete Baker

    Kathleen

    I’d be wary of making potentially libellous accusations in a post on Slugger based on Irish Examiner reports – the allegation of obstruction has been made, not proved.

    But the telling phrase in how the Catholic Church viewed this report, as noted in the Irish Times, is contained in the letter from the chairman of the Interdiocesan Case Management Advisory Committee, representing the diocese of Cloyne, to Aidan Canavan, chairman of the National Board for Safeguarding Children (NBSC). Full text here.

    Your report seriously wrongs the Diocese of Cloyne and our committee. Therefore, if you issue this report in its present form or include its distortions in your forthcoming annual report, we shall have no choice but to seek remedies in either ecclesiastical or secular courts or both.

    And what could an ecclesiastical court do? Apart from excommunicate.. “Matters purely spiritual, as explained above, fall within the exclusive jurisdiction of ecclesiastical law.”

  • Kathleen

    There you go pete both sides showm. That ought to take care of it

    And what could an ecclesiastical court do?

    Thats not the point, the point is this bishop failed to act on new guidelines to ensure child safety That makes me think how many other parishes around the country are doing the same.

  • Pete Baker

    Not quite, Kathleen.

    The point I was making is that the Irish Examiner reported that the allegation of obstruction had been made in the report.

    As for the ecclesiastical court.

    It’s a different point – The letter also denies the charge that there was a failure to implement the new guidelines.

    But the letter was part of an attempt to pressurise the authorities, or individulas within those authorities, not to publish the report.

  • Bingo

    The united nations and interpol should have been brought in to investigate this years ago.
    We have a church who has protected hundreds of abusive men,who have abused thousands and thousands of children.
    This is a worldwide crime.

  • veritas

    there is no excuse for pervy priests..

  • Dave

    Pete, I doubt the Bishop will take legal proceedings for repeating allegations in a report that he has placed into the public domain by publishing it uncensored on his website. It may be the case, of course, that the report from Ian Elliott was amended at the request threat of Bishop John Magee, but, if so, then it was amended in a way that left the ‘offending’ allegation intact.

    http://www.cloynediocese.ie/Bishop on Management of cases NBSC report.htm

    He offers this comments on the report elsewhere on his website (December 19th 2008): “I cooperated with this review and fully accept its recommendations. I am currently implementing the findings of this review.”

  • Dave

    For some reason (probably the spaces in the URL), that link will not post correctly. Ah well…

  • Dave

    Just to beat Pete to it: he can accept the [i]recommendations[/i] of the report while disputing its observations, but he cannot self-publish the observations and then claim that he is libelled by others publishing what he has also published.

  • Paddy Matthews

    http://cloynediocese.ie/Bishop on Management of Cases Progress.htm

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]And what could an ecclesiastical court do? Apart from excommunicate.. “[/i]

    Hmmmm let me think….cut off yer head?

    The Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 is worth noting, especially concerning the Jews. Jews were denied public office jobs, had to pay special taxes and wear clothes which distinguished them from Catholics. The arm badge which marked the Jew during the 2nd world war was not an invention of the Nazi’s it was a creation of the Roman Catholic church in 1215. The persecution of the Jews continued through the middle ages right upto 1631 when the last Jew was burned for allegedly stealing Jesus from the chapel. Yes stealing Jesus, you know that wee cracker called the host?….If there’s any truth to Jews stealing crackers it’s probably due to hunger than attempts to desecrate it.

  • 33rd County

    “Jews were denied public office jobs…”

    were any Catholics ever denied civil service jobs in NI?

  • finches

    These priests should be hanged:

    Pope St Pius V:

    “That horrible crime, on account of which corrupt and obscene cities were destroyed by fire through divine condemnation, causes us most bitter sorrow and shocks our mind, impelling us to repress such a crime with the greatest possible zeal.

    Quite opportunely the Fifth Lateran Council [1512-1517] issued this decree: “Let any member of the clergy caught in that vice against nature . . . be removed from the clerical order or forced to do penance in a monastery” (chap. 4, X, V, 31). So that the contagion of such a grave offense may not advance with greater audacity by taking advantage of impunity, which is the greatest incitement to sin, and so as to more severely punish the clerics who are guilty of this nefarious crime and who are not frightened by the death of their souls, we determine that they should be handed over to the severity of the secular authority, which enforces civil law.

    Therefore, wishing to pursue with the greatest rigor that which we have decreed since the beginning of our pontificate, we establish that any priest or member of the clergy, either secular or regular, who commits such an execrable crime, by force of the present law be deprived of every clerical privilege, of every post, dignity and ecclesiastical benefit, and having been degraded by an ecclesiastical judge, let him be immediately delivered to the secular authority to be put to death, as mandated by law as the fitting punishment for laymen who have sunk into this abyss. “

  • oxo cube

    Pervs

  • finches

    Ulster My Homeland, it’s quite a pity you didn’t have the balls to quote directly from the Latin (which I have) in the old Codex Iuris Canonici (abrogated btw) and instead took those quotes those right from a translation in a book (admittedly in the public domain) at JesusIsLord.com.

  • finches

    Obviously you are not acquainted with ‘The Jews and their lies’ by that mentally deluded drunkard ‘reformer’ Martin Luther which labels Jews ‘swine’, laden with ‘the devil’s feces’, and ‘base, whoring people’. Hitler was quite a fan of it and quoted approvingly of it.

    “JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY
    Dr. Warren Carroll

    A. It is my understanding that there has never been any official Church doctrine or dogma that has proposed the persecution of the Jewish people. Is this true? Has the collective guilt of the Jewish people ever been offical doctrine of the Church.

    1. No Catholic Church doctrine prescribes, and no Pope has ordered general persecution of Jews. Some earlier theologians held, and some Church pronouncements have implied collective guilt of the Jews for the crucifixion of Christ, based on the words of His persecutors quoted in the Gospels: “His blood be upon us and upon our children.” But this has never been held to mean that all Jews should consequently be punished by human agency; rather, the Church has always sought their conversion. In the words of St. Bernard of Clairvaux:

    “Is it not a far better triumph for the Church to convince and convert the Jews than to put them all to the sword? Has that prayer which the Church offers for the Jews, from the rising up of the sun to the going down thereof, that the veil may be taken from their hearts so that they may be led from the darkness of error into the light of truth, been instituted in vain? If she did not hope that they would believe and be converted, it would seem useless and vain for her to pray for them. But with the eye of mercy she considers how the Lord regards with favor him who renders good for evil and love for hatred.” (St. Bernard of Clairvaux to Archbishop Henry of Mainz, 1146, The Letters of St. Bernard of Clairvaux, tr. Bruno Scott James [London, 1953], p. 466)

    In the year 1273 Pope Gregory X issued “an encyclical to all Christians forbidding them to baptize Jews by force or to injure their persons, or to take away their money, or to disturb them during the celebration of their religious festivals.” (Horace K. Mann, Lives of the Popes in the Middle Ages, Volume XVI [London, 1929], p. 496)

    B. Some of the canons in the 3rd and 4th Lateran council appear to be very anti-semitic in nature. For example, there is one that prohibits Christians from employing Jews as servants. Not wishing to take things out of context, is it possible to provide some background into why these canons were drawn up the way they were. My understanding is that “canons” back then dealt with a lot more civil matters back when Church and State were much more firmly integrated.

    2. The Third Lateran Council (1179) prohibited Jews from employing Christians as servants, not Christians from employing Jews. The Council believed it unwise and dangerous for Jews to exercise authority over Christians, fearing that pressure might be put upon them to persuade them to abandon their faith, and believing that Christians should not come under the direct authority of non-Christians. The Church at that time was totally integrated with society and government in every Christian nation; the modern concept of “separation of church and state” was unknown. Exercise of authority in any area was seen as opening the door to exercise of authority in all areas. To have non-Christians exercising authority was therefore seen as unacceptable. Consequently Jews were specifically barred from public office by the Fourth Lateran Council (1215). This did not mean that all Jews were regarded as in “servitude” to Christians, only that Christians could not serve Jews or be under their authority. Most Jews operated their own shops and businesses and their property rights in them were respected, as Pope Gregory X’s encyclical of 1273 (quoted above) makes clear. A decree of the Fourth Lateran Council required Jews to wear identifying dress. It was feared that Jews might infiltrate Christian groups and organizations without their religious identity being known, and there were instances in Spain where this can be proved to have actually happened, though probably it was rare. The strong sense of religious confession as part of good citizenship and national loyalty helped create a need for this ruling in the context of the time, however offensive in modern eyes. The Fourth Lateran Council pointed out that Jewish law then required the wearing of identifying symbols also, which was correct.”

  • Gregory

    “As for the ecclesiastical court.”

    I couldn’t understand why that was there.

    ‘Likewise, not all persons are to be judged by secular courts. The Church could not permit her clergy to be judged by laymen; it would be utterly unbecoming for persons of superior dignity to submit themselves to their inferiors for judgment. The clergy, therefore, were exempt from civil jurisdiction, and this ancient rule was sanctioned by custom and confirmed by written laws. On this point the Church has always taken a firm stand; concessions have been wrung from her only where greater evils were to be avoided.’

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04447a.htm

    “For too long the predatory priests of the catholic church have been treated as a special case where the full rigors of the law are most definitely not applied. ”

    Not so, as a point of fact they are possibly dealt with more robustly.

    “Thats not the point, the point is this bishop failed to act on new guidelines to ensure child safety That makes me think how many other parishes around the country are doing the same.”

    A general accusation, isn’t the best course of action in relation to the specifics of the one thing.

    Gregory

  • Gregory

    “In the past they also relied heavily on family pressure telling victims families that sure he/she must have led the poor father on.”

    So, who else relies on that kind of solution, could it be that it was ( or is) generally standard.

  • Gregory

    “Is it true that Pope John Paul II declared that the pedophile priest crisis was an invention of the American media?”

    There was a federal report, the media attached itself to that instead.

    Sex Abuse by Teachers Said Worse Than Catholic Church
    Jon E. Dougherty, Newsmax
    Monday, Apr. 05, 2004
    The era of priest offending is over.

    [edired]

    Gregory

  • Gregory

    “Since this report has been published there is considerable anger and there has been calls for his resignation. One priest has walked from Cobh to Dublin in atonement for clerical child sexual abuse. The Bishop shows no sign of resigning… ”

    Resigning doesn’t generally happen,

    ( it is very rare)

    your other post in relation to events in England was extraordinary, the mistake they made was to rub up the media with their perception of their own immunity.

    The norm was/is to reward ‘the right’ people, or promote them,

    the Brits (Dfes) for example sacked *all* their Psychiatrists, because they refused to submit to the bizarre operating ‘theories’.

    Such as gender specific offending etc.

    I was involved in a campaign to make the Northern Bishops more accountable, but the NIO were offering a general immunity.

    They wanted the church to take it. So the Vatican lost out to the NIO.

    Gregory

  • Harry Flashman

    Gregory is right, child sex abuse by the clergy is pretty much historical now, what the Church did was dreadful, they allowed corporate management to take over from their duty as Christian pastors.

    Nowadays the profession with the highest incidences of child sex abuse is the teaching profession, and what are the Teachers’ Unions doing? Well precisely what the Church did in the past, despite all their protestations of progressiveness and support for the vulnerable in society when a teacher is accused of sex abuse the union closes ranks and protects and defends the teacher, not really too much difference to what the Church used to do.

  • Gregory

    [edited]

  • Gregory

    “Nowadays the profession with the highest incidences of child sex abuse is the teaching profession, and what are the Teachers’ Unions doing? ”

    If I drop that, I can write my own ticket with the Brit govt.

    [edited]

    It took somebody with a US background to point out that if the USA does twelve teachers a day, then the Brits can do one a day, just to begin with.

    The Brits make Cardinal Law look like a complete novice.

    Gregory

  • willis

    Harry

    “when a teacher is accused of sex abuse the union closes ranks and protects and defends the teacher, not really too much difference to what the Church used to do.”

    The crucial differences as you are only too aware, are that the unions are not the employers, and have no influence on parents.

    Perhaps there should be a Right Wing version of Godwin’s Law?

  • cynic

    “what the Church did was dreadful, they allowed corporate management to take over from their duty as Christian pastors”

    No they didn’t just do that. They lied (now where did those commandments go?) , covered up, re-victimised children and, in some cases, quietly shuffled paedophiles off to new Parishes and allowed them to abuse more children. It wasn’t just a little corporate management failing.

  • Cynic

    “Not so, as a point of fact they are possibly dealt with more robustly.”

    So when did an ecclesiastical court last send a priest to jail for 10 years?

    And intersting that its all “Brit” teachers who are at fault. Well, there’s a little danger in the way you use your figures. The fact is those teachers are being caught. Their crimes are investigated by those terrible Brit police and they go to court.

    What has happened in Ireland or Northern Ireland? A lack of investigation? Cover up? Witness intimidation? Criminals moved abroad out of the reach of the law?

    Why do you think, for example, that “Brit” teachers should be any more inclined to paedophilia than Irish ones? So why aren’t more Irish ones caught? And who largely runs Irish schools?

  • Gregory

    As a point of fact sex offenders apply for jobs in schools on the same basis as everybody else in Britain.

    The Catholic Church has far higher standards than that.

    [edited]

  • Gregory

    “The crucial differences as you are only too aware, are that the unions are not the employers, and have no influence on parents.”

    [edited]

  • Gregory

    “Bishop Magee as Bishop of Cloyne is responsible for how the diocese handled the abuse allegations.”

    Fair enough, He made a far better job of it than DENI. So there are two glaring standards there.

    Resignations are ( by tradition) outside the norm,

    they are ( almost invariably) extraordinary events, so why expect Bishop Magee to do something that is rarely required of others?

    I think he should go, and I am very sorry he hasn’t.

    “If this shocks you so profoundly that you believe Ms Keates must have been misquoted, I can tell you she sticks by every word.”

    http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/64914/Teacher-pupil-sex-can-never-be-a-grey-area

    However, Bishop Magee wasn’t campaigning to make some sex crime legal, nor offering the same get out of jail card to foster-parents.

    [edited]

  • willis

    Gregory
    “It depends on the union, one of which is campaigning for decriminalization!”

    Any chance of a link or more info?

  • Harry Flashman

    “The crucial differences as you are only too aware, are that the unions are not the employers, and have no influence on parents.”

    Maybe so, but while we are rushing to condemn the behaviour of the Catholic Church, rightly, for their failings in th past, it might behove us a little to ask is anyone doing anything similar today?

    Times change, those who were beyond criticism yesterday are pilloried today, can anyone be sure that the current behaviour of the Teachers’ Unions today will be regarded as beyond reproach in twenty years time? It would be a brave man who would predict that.

  • OC

    ‘Maybe so, but while we are rushing to condemn the behaviour of the Catholic Church, rightly, for their failings in th past, it might behove us a little to ask is anyone doing anything similar today?’ – Posted by Harry Flashman on Jan 07, 2009 @ 02:10 PM

    Whataboutery?

  • Given John Magee’s history of intransigence over something as (in terms relative to the subject matter above) minor as changing the interior layout of Cobh Cathedral I think he’ll have to be pushed as he doesn’t seem like a man to jump.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]Obviously you are not acquainted with ‘The Jews and their lies’ by that mentally deluded drunkard ‘reformer’ Martin Luther which labels Jews ‘swine’, laden with ‘the devil’s feces’, and ‘base, whoring people’. Hitler was quite a fan of it and quoted approvingly of it.”[/i]

    I’m not quite sure who you directed this at, but I’ll guess it was probably me. I won’t be trying to paint a rosy picture of Luther and his writings on the Jews or trying to say he’s the perfect Christian and an ambassador to Protestantism. His writings on Jews were atrocious, but they wouldn’t have existed had he not been schooled in Roman Catholicism which legally (ecclesiastically) became anti-Semitic since the 4th Lateran council (1215). His earlier works on the veneration of the virgin Mary was equally atrocious, but he later rebuked the worship of Mary and the Saints.

    Luther is widely used by both Protestants and Catholics to get one over on the other, but in reality Luther sums up the development (reform) of Christianity. He’s in noway perfect, yet he strives to understand God’s word in all it’s perfection. Luther is a good example of the fallibility of man, yet equally a good example of the seed which falls on good ground. The good ground representing those who can change their ways, follow Christ and not tradition.

    Sadly the religious battles of whether Luther was more Catholic than Protestant shadows the true story of his life.

  • willis

    Harry

    “Times change, those who were beyond criticism yesterday are pilloried today, can anyone be sure that the current behaviour of the Teachers’ Unions today will be regarded as beyond reproach in twenty years time? It would be a brave man who would predict that.”

    I’m afraid I am struggling with the idea that Trade Unions are “beyond criticism”.

    Given that Margaret Thatcher dedicated her life to obliterating Unions it is a triumph that they are in such rude health.

    As the situation in Movilla has shown, teachers need safety in numbers, and they actually have massive support from reasonable parents.

  • Gregory

    Willis

    You might find that the PPSNI have an internal investigation into their handling of the Movilla incident.

    :o))

    The UN Committee is also interested.

    Gregory

    The judge granted her the right to seek a judicial review after ruling the PPS decision arguably interfered with the teenager’s rights.

    He said he was satisfied the issue could be resolved by an adjournment to today’s proceedings.

    http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2008/11/04/story384716.asp

  • 33rd County

    Unfortunately this case will probably be resolved the same way the problems with cardinal Bernie Law were over here in the 33rd county. Magee will be working some job in the shadows of the Vatican and before long everyone will forget what happened.

  • willis

    Good

    I hope the parents sue the pants off the Belfast Tele as well.

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/strike-row-boy-back-at-movilla-14130605.html

    Although quite how they hoped that they would protect their privacy by going on the Nolan Show is beyond me.

    As far as I can see the only people who have been scrupulous about confidentiality have been the teachers and the NASUWT.

  • willis

    “You have got to be kidding,

    the union were insisting on seeing confidential records, and that was why the strike continued.”

    An official got to see the documents, and the strike ended. I do not know whether it was the Governors or the Board who decided to take the ultimately disastrous hard line, I suspect the Board. I’m sure you know.

  • Greenflag

    gregory ,

    ‘The era of priest offending is over.’

    Since time immemorial those be they ancient shamans , druids , witch doctors , priests , ministers , pastors , or the modern day televangelist con men of snake oil salvation this ‘class’ of society has always used it’s so called access to ‘supernatural ‘ authority to cover their ‘earthly ‘ abuse of that authority . Throughout history there has always been a conflict between Church and State to see who could get their hands on the most ‘loot ‘ /power . This struggle was ‘complicated ‘ somewhat by ‘ideology ‘ and ‘philosophic ‘ argument of the Thomas a Beckett v Henry II type . And later in the Wars of Religion in europe millions were killed ostensibly for some fine point of ‘religious ‘ principle but in reality for the temporal ‘needs ‘ of the priests or the priest kings.

    God always needs more money -So too does the State .

    I give the former nothing and the latter as little as keeps me out of prison 😉

    Nice diversion by this ‘gregory ‘ at finding another ‘group’ of child abusers to deflect attention from those who have milked the Irish taxpayer of millions in compensation payments 🙁

  • willis

    “C. Ruane thanked the parents for waiving privacy entitlements, a trade union, as a third party, has no right to medical notes & documents of that ilk & etc.”

    I’m afraid you have not supported either of these opinions with any quote.

    A Trade Union might not have a right to see documents, however it does have a right to request documentation relevant to a disciplinary or trade dispute.

    I can accept that some teachers may abuse their position of trust, however you should be able to accept that teachers need to be protected from violent students

  • Kilbarry1

    I listened to 3 or 4 news bulletins on RTE Radio 2 days ago regarding the Health Service Executive (HSE) Report on Cloyne. None mentioned that the HSE did not propose to refer ANY diocese to the abuse commission for further investigation. Does RTE really consider that fact to be irrelevant?

    Previously the media had covered up the fact that the DPP declined to take any action against the two accused priests. (This was mentioned in one article in the Irish Examiner on 20 December and subsequently ignored).

    Minister for Children Barry Andrews over-ruled the HSE Report and decided that the Cloyne Diocese should be subject to a new investigation anyway. In one way I don’t object because people would scream “Cover up” if it wasn’t done. However the Government are reacting to media-generated hysteria. How many people are aware that the Gardai have stated that there are NO current investigations in progress re claims of clerical child abuse in Cloyne?

    Barry Andrews said that Bishop Magee failed to adhere to Church or State Guidelines in two cases where he did not notify the HSE of abuse allegations. As far as I can see, both of these are cases where the Bishop reported the claims to the Gardai but not to HSE as he assumed that the Gardai would do so.

    Is this what all the hysteria is about?

  • Yvette Doll

    “I’m afraid you have not supported either of these opinions with any quote.”

    Actually I linked it to a PDF file at DENI, the censor zilched it.

    “I thank the parents involved for helping to move thisdispute forward and welcome the suspension of the strike by the NASUWT union.”

    http://www.deni.gov.uk/minister_s_statement_on_movilla.pdf

    Gregory

  • Yvette

    “Nice diversion by this ‘gregory ‘ at finding another ‘group’ of child abusers to deflect attention from those who have milked the Irish taxpayer of millions in compensation payments :(”

    The censor zilched my reply to that.

    We published articles about Cardinal Law in various parts of the world.

    I also had a campaign here against the PSNI and NIO relative to the ‘shred records’ permission the Northern Bishops were given.

    The UUP ( Esmond Birnie) issued a statement for me. It was covered in the newspapers in Ulster.

    I try to be even-handed.

    Gregory

    Clerical abuse probe widens
    The PSNI are still
    considering a Ferns-style inquiry into clerical sex abuse across
    Northern Ireland dating back to the 1960s, it has been confirmed.

    The UUP family affairs spokesman Esmond Birnie said: “An independent
    inquiry could be very helpful in restoring public confidence. I am not
    completely convinced the Church has done all it can to restore public
    confidence since Ferns.”

  • George Orwell and Industrial Relations

    “A Trade Union might not have a right to see documents, however it does have a right to request documentation relevant to a disciplinary or trade dispute.”

    Anybody can ask for anything, whether it is UNCRC compliant we will have to see, because the NASUWT made it a condition.

    Even the police don’t have that right. The SEELB stated the NASUWT had no right to the records.

    Which is the de jure position.

    So the NASUWT insisted on seeing something they had no legal right to see as a condition for ending the strike.

    Gregory

  • Gregory Carlin

    “I suspect the Board. I’m sure you know.”

    I’ve been involved in NASUWT issues for over a decade.

    I was asked me to get involved in the SEELB issues in 2004. That related to the UN Committee.

    I had a meeting with the SEELB in 2004 at a PR firm next to Belfast City Hall re: the first SEELB/NASUWT strike.

    The PSNI also contacted colleagues in the USA to ask for ‘documents’ ( relative to the same NASUWT strike) just before the JR in front of the LCJ.

    The Movilla affair is a similar can of worms.

    All the best

    Gregory

  • Gregory

    ‘Barry Andrews said that Bishop Magee failed to adhere to Church or State Guidelines in two cases where he did not notify the HSE of abuse allegations. As far as I can see, both of these are cases where the Bishop reported the claims to the Gardai but not to HSE as he assumed that the Gardai would do so.’

    Ruane has repeatedly refused to ban sex offenders in NI schools, (nor has she any idea if sex offenders are working in Ulster’s schools).

    Mr D McNarry asked the Minister of Education to detail & etc. (AQO 2391/08)

    “The Department is not in a position to
    confirm whether any current employees have convictions for sexual
    offences . Persons with relevant sexual offences i.e.
    offences against a child, are listed as unsuitable and would not be
    employed. Where a person with a conviction for a sexual offence applies
    for a position in the education sector and is suitable in all other
    respects, it is a matter for the employing authority to conduct a risk
    assessment before a decision to employ is made.”

    http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/qanda/2007mandate/writtenans/080314.htm

    DENI have a ‘child safe’ sex offender theory of some kind. They won’t publish that remarkable behavioural theory either.

    Is the Bishop of Cloyne allowed a child safe sex offender theory?

    Gregory

  • willis

    Gregory

    “Anybody can ask for anything”

    Indeed

    However

    http://www.hmso.gov.uk/legislation/northernireland/nisr/yeargroups/1990-1999/1992/1992oic/no807_000.htm

    General duty of employers to disclose information

    39. —

    (1) For the purposes of all the stages of collective bargaining between an employer and representatives of an independent trade union about matters and in relation to descriptions of workers in respect of which the trade union is recognised by that employer, it shall be the duty of the employer, subject to Article 40, to disclose to those representatives on request all such information relating to his undertaking as is in his possession, or that of any associated employer, and is both—

    (a) information without which the trade union representatives would be to a material extent impeded in carrying on with him such collective bargaining; and

    (b) information which it would be in accordance with good industrial relations practice that he should disclose to them for the purposes of collective bargaining.

    But also

    Restrictions on general duty under Article 39

    40. —

    (1) No employer shall, by virtue of Article 39, be required to disclose—

    (a) any information the disclosure of which would be against the interests of national security, public safety or public order; or

    (b) any information which he could not disclose without contravening a prohibition imposed by or under a statutory provision; or

    (c) any information which has been communicated to the employer in confidence, or which the employer has otherwise obtained in consequence of the confidence reposed in him by another person; or

    (d) any information relating specifically to an individual, unless he has consented to its being disclosed;

    There was a legitimate debate to be had about the General obligation and the exceptions.

  • Gregory

    “Stanton Sloan, chief executive of the South Eastern Education and Library Board, said that the report will contain sensitive personal data which cannot be disclosed to a third party without the pupil’s consent.”

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/end-in-sight-to-school-stalemate-14019297.html

    Statutory provision & UN treaty.

    So information about salary grades can’t be communicated in the form of an individual’s stipend.

    What we had at Movilla was far more grave and warramted full restrictions.

    A trade union has no right to be given the medical notes of a child & etc. The schoolboy pushed past a teacher, it was hardly the crime of the century.

    The NASUWT strike continued beause the teaching union were insisting on getting conmfidential records which they had no legal right to be provided with.

    ‘She added she was aware of the circumstances of the incident involving the boy at the centre of the dispute and said she was concerned teachers were using a minor episode to create a scare story. “This child’s rights, and the rights of every child at that school are being used as bargaining chips,” she said.’

    It was a minor issue before the NASUWT went wild.

    It was political campaigning.

    Gregory