This was a youth rebellion.

Here is a small clip from an interview from a while back on Radio Free Eireann, in which Henry McDonald discusses his new book Gunsmoke and Mirrors In the two minute video of the Radio Free interview Henry also discusses why people joined the IRA. To either get back at the state, or because they were romantic republicans, they didn’t do it to get parity of esteem or an Irish language act.He also describes the last thiry years as a youth rebellion. However, in this months issue of Fortnight magazine, Peter Carr gives an excellent review of the book, in which he says,

McDonalds perspective on modern Irish republicanism struggles to climb out from under the shadow of a 1980 workers party critique of the Irish struggle.

Carr continues:

Then again the authors grasp of detail about the Provisional IRA in this book is not convincing. Even though he expresses regard for the late John Kelly, a former IRA volunteer, McDonald repeatedly refers to him as ‘Blue’ Kelly. This was never the name of John Kelly but of another person altogether. In another faux pas, a photograph is published of Ken Livingstone, in Belfast in 1983, and wrongly identifies the person standing beside him as Tom Hartley.

Carr also states that McDonald negatively differentiates the modern Irish struggle from struggles else where.

As time goes on and more information becomes available a clearer picture of our past will emerge. The 1978 Irish state archives just released gives new insight into how the La Mon bombing affected Anglo Irish relations. Roy Mason had claimed that the bombers had been given refuge in the republic.
But in the video the Irish claim:

They never ever either then or subsequently came up with any evidence that there was any southern connection. And frankly some of their own intelligence people had told us that it was the west Belfast brigade of the provisional IRA.

The video also has footage of the arrest of prominent republicans after the bombing.

So what is your view on the last thirty years, and why 3,500 approximately had to die in awful circumstances like La Mon? Was it a youth rebellion where young men kicked back at the state, or for Irish unity or catholic equality? Or something else entirely?

  • Dewi

    reading it tonight – so far a bit too much stuff about the left wing views (RCP, PD etc)…give me three hours and I’ll let u know if it gets better!

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Dewi,

    how come your guys didnt rise up against the Englezes whilst we were engaging the imperalist running dogs in Norn Iron? A second Celtic front and we could have brought the Saxon canines to heel much sooner.

    p.s. Just saw Munster take a one hell of a beating from Ulster – cancelling my trip to Ospreys on Friday – will watch from behind the settee now. On a postive note Ian Humphreys looks excellent-he and must be in with a shout for Ireland as ROG is injured.

  • cut the bull

    How come the underling class through out England has not managed to rise again after the defeat of brave Wat Tyler.
    There may never have been the murderous onslaught that the world had to endure in the building of a failed empire which was based on inequality,murder,theft and robbery.

    I’m so glad I got that off my chest.

  • cynic

    “a failed empire which was based on inequality,murder,theft and robbery”

    Oh come on. Ireland isn’t that bad

  • “On a postive note Ian Humphreys looks excellent-he and must be in with a shout for Ireland as ROG is injured”

    You almost always talk shite, but that is right enough. Humphreys ran the show tonight. Marvellously skillful performance from Ulster.

  • Kathleen

    Did I miss a rugby match guys:)

  • cut the bull

    You’ll never make it in the Empire (club that is) CYNIC on comedy night. Its usally for comedians who are funny and tell good jokes, so close the door on way out.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Katty,

    get back in the kitchen and remember not to interrupt when sport is being discussed.

    Chekov,

    you ignorant fat prod – how dare you speak to me in such terms.

    It is about time we observered the sons of Ulster being better represented in the Irish team.

    p.s. I think Trimble could do with a stint abroad (EnglezeLand) as he seems to have gone off the boil.

  • Kathleen

    get back in the kitchen and remember not to interrupt when sport is being discussed

    I may as well, this post is doomed 🙂

  • Quagmire

    Sounds like its half truths and mis-information more than gun smoke and mirrors.

  • Kathleen

    Everybody someone just made a comment on topic!

  • Jimmy Sands

    Good God as if the Connacht result wasn’t bad enough.

    Sorry what was the topic again?

  • “you ignorant fat prod – how dare you speak to me in such terms.”

    Ignorant and prod I may be, but fat I’ll not be claiming!

    Trimble seemed reluctant to put a tackle in. That said fine try to finish off with.

  • edward

    Kathleen

    You started a rugby thread and didnt even know it

    Good girl

  • Turgon

    Okay Kathleen: you want an answer to why people died at La Mon? How about the murderous bigoted blood lust of people who hated Protestants and decided it would be a great idea to kill a lot of them. Much the same as what motivated the people at Kingsmills, Teebane, Enniskillen and Darkley and a mirror image of hate filled bigotry which resulted in Loughlinisland, Sean Graham’s bookmakers and the Rising Sun.

    I am sure some will suggest that there was ideology etc. behind it. I would not be surprised if PaddyReilly explains it as Prods creating bad karma: one can produce all sorts of excuses but they are merely excuses. There was no cause in the last fifty years on this island worth killing anyone for, most people here knew and know that and fought out their political differences in terms of debate, peaceful protest and election. Some others, carried away by their own warped sense of morality, may have managed to justify what they did to themselves. That does not prevent everyone else of whatever political persuasion from identifying murderers as murderers. Trying to explain or understand is very difficult as to do it properly would require one to leap into the moral and ethical gutter inhibited by theses murderous criminals.

    You did ask.

  • Kathleen

    Turgon just brought us back down to earth….

    Thump!

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Turgon,

    “There was no cause in the last fifty years on this island worth killing anyone for”

    Any yet you show ambivalence towards the old UVF from the early part of the last century? That might seem like a long time ago to you – but if there is a big fellah upstairs (as I assume most Christains believe) I doubt it seems like more than a twinkle of an eye to himself.

  • Harry Flashman

    Whilst I wouldn’t go so far as to say it was all entirely unbridled sectarian warfare there was a large tribalist aspect to the whole campaign, it was “us’uns” against “them’uns” for many people.

    That doesn’t explain it all and I have no doubt that genuine Republican ideology was behind quite a bit of the IRA campaign, especially in South Armagh, West Belfast and the Bogside but the Provos do need to face up to the fact that old fashioned sectarianism did motivate quite a substantial proportion of both their membership and their campaign.

    For the Loyalists of course naked sectarianism accounted for about 90% of their campaign but at least they made no bones about it.

  • Dewi

    Up to page 81 but finishing for the night – book a little disjointed, lots about Farrell and the PD -but interesting. Well done Ulster – big game for Ospreys this weekend….

  • Mr Angry

    “For the Loyalists of course naked sectarianism accounted for about 90% of their campaign but at least they made no bones about it.”

    Hurrah for them, or something.

  • nineteensixtyseven

    McDonald’s book isn’t perfect but it is certainly very good. I don’t think those examples quoted above actually do much to invalidate the thrust and substance of his overall thesis which is that the Provos set out to smash the state but ended up compromising with it while re-writing the history of their struggle to suggest that parity within NI was in fact their end goal. This thus begs the question why so many people were killed in the process.

  • edward

    1967

    It also begs the question why any one had to die for the simple right of parity, why wasn’t it granted with out any deaths?

  • nineteensixtyseven

    Which further begs many questions, namely; did they have to die for parity? Did the killings prolong or precipitate parity? Did, in the case of the hunger-strikers, they know that what they were dying for was parity? (No, they were dying for something more which doesn’t stop SF using their memories to sell Stormont to their followers). While agreeing that the intrinsically sectarian nature of partition and the concurrent conduct old Stormont government provided the general context in which the violence was escalated they were but one cause, others included the deliberate campaign waged by the Provisional IRA which was not for parity but for a United Ireland. It would not be unreasonable to suggest that the PIRA campaign heightened (but did not create) ground-level unionist hostility to even mere parity of nationalists within the state; don’t forget that it was the PIRA as well as the extreme loyalists who were hostile to Sunningdale. To presume that the deaths were necessary is to attain the right of parity it to enter the realms of counter-factual history or to imply causation which isn’t necessarily apparent.

  • Dewi

    Finished – not bad. Not, however, comsecutive which is an approach to history that I find difficult – kept on thinking now which year are we?
    Central thesis straightforward enough as per 1967. I still believe that:
    i) Some defensive action was inevitable in 1969
    ii) Army actions (Falls Curfew, Bloody Sunday) prolonged the conflict by a decade or more.
    iii) Adams deserves credit for realising that rather than:
    “Until Ireland is free there will never be peace”,
    “Without peace Ireland will never be free” is a better slogan.

    7/10 – worth a read.

  • edward

    To be or not to be, that is the question;
    Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
    The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
    And by opposing, end them

  • blinding

    nineteensixtyseven said

    “don’t forget that it was the PIRA as well as the extreme loyalists who were hostile to Sunningdale.”

    If it were just extreme unionists that brought down Sunningdale then there certainly a hell of a lot of them.

    PIRA were not a political force at this time and to think that their opposition would have stopped the british goverment persevering with Sunningdale is wrong in my humble opinion.

  • Rory Carr

    McDonald’s assertion that “this was a youth rebellion” is such inconsequential twaddle. What alternative does he imagine was possible in the physical realisation of discontent – that greybeards on zimmer frames would charge tortoise-like towards police and army lines? Of course the majority of volunteers were youths as were their enemy in the British forces. That inevitability of the youthful nature of combatants does not however serve to brand the conflict in Northern Ireland, which had been simmering since 1966, as a youth rebellion. What developed did so incrementally and the real catalyst was the signing of the Treaty of Rome which paved the way for British and Irish inevitable membership of the European Union.

    Step forward, Ian Paisley, whose demagogic anti-Romanism whipped up a frenzy of hate and fear against the modest demands of NI Catholics for democratic progress within the state. This hate campaign played itself out in brutal attacks on civil rights marchers and, according to Gusty Spence,inspired the cold blooded murder of young Peter Ward and culminated in the mass attacks on Catholic families in the Lower Falls spearheaded by the state forces who fired heavy machine gun rounds from armoured cars into Divis Flats one of which decapitated a child as he knelt at his bedtime prayers.

    The late Maire Drumm, Vice-President of Sinn Féin related to me how her teenaged son burst into their bedroom where she and husband Jimmy, who had thrice been interned in preceding decades, were sleeping blissfully unaware. “Quick, daddy, we need the IRA now. They’re slaughtering us!” Jimmy had to tell him that there was no IRA and his son gave him such a look of disgust that from this the Provisional IRA was born and quickly proved its worth in repelling the onslaught on a Catholic church by armed loyalists intent on murder.

    Perhaps indeed it is fitting that Ian Paisley should have gone jointly into government with a man reputed to have been a Provisional IRA leader, for after all, in a sense, Paisley has claim to be, if not the founding father of the Provisional IRA, at least the inspiration and catalyst behind its formation. St George is nothing without the Dragon.

    While the aspiration for an united,unfettered Irish Republic must ever underpin IRA ideology no sane opinion within its ranks held that that dream could be realised by a miltary victory over the British Forces. But once having been conjured up the IRA took on its own dynamic and the reactionary forces of unionism which called it into being had lost the magic formula to dispel it – the unspoken covenant of the previous decades of Stormont rule, freedom and safety from attack by state forces and armed loyalist thugs upon Catholic homes and Catholic lives had been broken and no longer could be trusted. Then when Faulkner persuaded Heath that internment was the magic potion, all hope that British standards of democracy, which all that was really being asked for, was a cruel deception which doubly proved itself to so be on Bloody Sunday and dashed to pieces the protestations of such as the SDLP that there was salvation to be found in Westminster. The Saville Inquiry added insult to injury and the former darling of West Belfast, Gerry Fitt became a figure so reviled that he had to cloak himself in ermine in order to find comfort.

    Then ‘The Truce’ and the establishment of Sinn Féin centres to monitor it and the peaceful road was on again – until once more a breach of faith by the Brits awakened us from that little pipe-dream.

    And so to war, behind which the struggle of Republican prisoners on the blanket and later on hunger-strike opened a new realisation of how the political game could be played, this time with mass support.The hunger strikers did not die for either a Republic or, as an earlier poster has suggested – parity of esteem, they died simply refusing to be branded as criminals.

    The strategy of ‘the Armalite and the Ballot Box’ served to give Republicans greater leverage in inevitable future negotiations that had been so lacking before, people like Adams and McGuinness having already witnessed the hollowness of Séan MacStíofáin’s idle threats to Whitelaw when the Brits first negotiated with the IRA back in 1972.

    What has been ‘won’ is an open road to unity and the opportunity to persuade the unionist community to walk that road but this time without fearing state persecution for daring to openly advocate such blasphemy.

    Some might say that too many have died for such a small concession to which one might reply that too many died for such a small concession to be witheld.

    Paisley’s “Never, never, NEVER!” has died on his lips but the same refrain beats strong in the hearts of Northern nationalists – “We will never allow ourselves to be treated like serfs again.” The unionist hegemony is broken forever and lies crumbling like Ozymandias. If this was ever a ‘youthful rebellion’ it has certainly come of age.

  • jerryp

    1967, I agree with you. Sunningdale was a watershed, when the Provos decided to continue with their campaign, despite what was on offer and, more particularly , the potential that a ceasefire would have provided. It took SF leaders a long time to recognise the damage their movement had done to the very people they claimed they were fighting for.
    Re the book : found it strange that the author referred on a few occassions to ” the North of Ireland “. I thought it was only Seamus Mallon used that term.

  • Dewi

    Widgery Inquiry Rory?

  • frustrated democrat

    I can agree with one thing Paisley was the catalyst for 30 years of violence. He fed the republican machine with propaganda they used to recruit members in the early stages.

    I will never understand how he had his Damascus conversion after all his years of protesting against anything and everybody, either the Giovernment had a secret hold over him or his lust for power was just too great.

    I will never forgive him for what he did for all those years.

  • veritas

    the far off days in the Lagan social club when the official ira(group b)used to plan robberies, threaten businessmen, target individuals for beatings and shotting, pick those who where to fly to Moscow from Shannon to be trained in “communist” theory!

    Wonder will the bold henry ever put these thoughts on paper, will he enlighten the public as to way the workers party still has an armed group. Why group b is still heavily involved in robberies and now drug peddling!!

    aaah but this is all propaganda!

  • jock

    Indeed Veritas-Apart from Carr, the local media has long chosen to ignore McDonald’s jaundiced 80’s Throwback WP outlook.
    Henry must indeed have some great sources that would allow him to write a book on the Sticks-Superdollars, the Moscow link,the OIRA drugs link, Tax Exemption Certificates and the Belfast pub and restaurant chain that is still in Stick ownership.Could I suggest a working title of ‘Sticks and Stoned’?

  • Rory Carr

    Yes, of course, Dewi, Widgery. Thank you.

    I don’t know if the inadvertent slip was due to (not so)early onset Alzheimer’s or a biased projection of the Saville conclusions on my part.

  • andy

    Jock, Veritas
    You ,ay be better served by a book called “lost Revolution”, about our friends the stickies, out later on this year. Its written by Prof Brian Hanely and Scott Miller (sometimeof the Sunday times)
    I have no idea what it will be like.

  • cut the bull

    Paisley’s “Never, never, NEVER!” has died on his lips but the same refrain beats strong in the hearts of Northern nationalists – “We will never allow ourselves to be treated like serfs again.” The unionist hegemony is broken forever and lies crumbling like Ozymandias. If this was ever a ‘youthful rebellion’ it has certainly come of age.
    DREAM ON
    Eight months of attacks facilitated by the PSNI often with the participation of members of the PSNI in ths siege of the Short Strand in 2002/2003

    Detectives lying in court during the Omagh bomb trial.
    Denis Donaldson PSNI Special Branch agent helping to bring down the 2002 Assembly.
    The internment of people most recently Terry Mc Cafferty on the word of Special Branch reports.With all political parties in Stormont remaining silent on this issue. You will be treated like a serf again, if you choose to ignore if and when its happening to some one else.Its just a matter of timing,as in when it may be your turn.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]Henry McDonald discusses his new book Gunsmoke and Mirrors In the two minute video of the Radio Free interview Henry also discusses why people joined the IRA. [u]To either get back at the state, or because they were romantic republicans[/u]”[/i]

    Did Henry McDanald ever read the IRA Green Boek? What part of it doesn’t he understand?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]Paisley’s “Never, never, NEVER!” has died on his lips but the same refrain beats strong in the hearts of Northern nationalists”[/i]

    lol @ Rory Carr. Paisley’s never, never rant was directed at the Irish Government, not IRA/Sinn Fein or any Irish Nat/Rep from N.Ireland.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[/i]iii) Adams deserves credit for realising that rather than:
    “Until Ireland is free there will never be peace”,
    “Without peace Ireland will never be free” is a better slogan.”[/i]

    Good one Dewi, although if we really want to get rid of the true cause of our troubles the slogan for the future should be, “Until Ireland is free from Papist and Vatican rule there will never be peace”

  • Ri Na Deise

    Ulsters my homeland

    What a weird little angry bigot you are. The most worrying part is that you are a charicature of a mentality that is alas all too prominent in that ‘wee pravince’.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]What a weird little angry bigot you are. The most worrying part is that you are a charicature of a mentality that is alas all too prominent in that ‘wee pravince’.

    Do i not fit your stereotype Ri Na Deise ? why can’t I be one of you’s?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    [/i]italics sorted

  • Ri Na Deise

    In order to be one of ‘us’ you will need to lose the shackles of indoctrinated sectarianism. The future is bright and you’re most welcome to be a part of a true Irish state. You must however see the light as there is no place for religous hatred or the domination of one sect by the other in the new Ireland. Its future generations Id expect to overcome this but all hope may not be lost on this one yet.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Aye, your a good laugh Ri Na Deise. Obviously you’ll be demanding your state to change it’s sectarian constitution so this multicultural propaganda is relived.

  • rosebud

    I would be interested to hear whether any of the aims and objectives of the Workers Party were ever attained.

    Also why has their electoral support declined to almost zero? Is it because these self-sacrificing idealists were too pure and noble for a cynical, sectarian electorate?-or was it something else?

  • Ri Na Deise

    UMH

    Happened years ago. Although seeing as how you are just emerging mentally from the 17th century. Will grant you some time for it to set in.;-)

  • Rosebud,

    Depends what you mean. Someone above asked why parity was never achieved without violence. In fact, many of NICRA’s aims to democratise the northern state had in fact been achieved by non-violence and mass protest, but alas some were rolled back during the violence. What became The Workers’ Party was the leading force in NICRA.

    As for the later slogan during the 1970s onwards of Peace, Work, Democracy and Class Politics. Well we have peace, and a form of local democracy. We even have class politics, but primarily and unforunately in the interest of the middle class, as we can see with the 11+ fiasco.
    The GFA did show the influence of several core WP demands and policies – the civic forum was clearly modelled on various WP proposals for a democratic convention of community and political organisations, and a bill of rights was central to its programme, and the various proposals for police reform put forward from 1975 bear some resemblance to what emerged in Patten.

    But clearly The WP’s goal of building the unity of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter to build a united and socialist society remains a long way off. As to the decline in the north, it can be traced to the collapse of the USSR and the fall in the popularity of socialist politics, the legacy of the abandonment of socialism and attempt to wreck The WP by the opportunists of the now-defunct DL, the emergence of competing alternative identities (e.g. the Greens), but most of all to the continued dominace of sectarianism in every aspexct of life in our society. There are other factors too regarding changes in employment type, growth of so-called flexibility, decline in trade union membership etc. As a whole, Irish society is extremely right-wing, and in such circumstances putting forward a clear and unapologetic socialist programme is not popular, especially during the boom of the last decade and more north and south.

    However, some shoots of growth are emerging in the left throughout the island, and some progress may well be possible given the extent to which the lazy economic assumptions of recent years are being shattered.

  • rosebud

    Interesting points that you made Garibaldi,but sadly lacking in any criticsm of the actions of

    The weighty Macro issues you mention such as the fall of the USSR and the emergence of Green politics were far less relevant to ordinary communities than the brazen criminality of the local Sticks. Such manifestations of this were protection rackets, kneecappings, robberies and corruption all towards building personal fiefdoms and fortunes for the the WP and their paramilitary wing.

    Surely the endemic corruption and criminality within the Sticky Movement were key to its loss of credibilty and electoral support?

    It is for these reasons that the WP would now struggle to fill a phone box for ts annual convention.

  • rosebud

    sorry, first line should read:-

    ‘Interesting points that you made Garibaldi,but sadly lacking in any criticsm of the actions of the WP members themselves’.

  • Gregory

    “Although seeing as how you are just emerging mentally from the 17th century. ”

    What was wrong with that century?

    if Cardinal Richelieu hadn’t put La Rochelle to the cannon, Lisburn wouldn’t be the same place as it is today.

    Try and be positive.

    Gregory

  • Harry Flashman

    “[i][b]In order to be one of ‘us’ you will need to lose the shackles of indoctrinated sectarianism[/b]. The future is bright and you’re most welcome to be a part of a true Irish state. [b]You must however see the light as there is no place for religous hatred or the domination of one sect by the other in the new Ireland.[/b][/i]”

    Actually RND there is no obligation whatsoever on Northern Protestants to lose their religious beliefs, no matter how bigoted, in order to be welcomed into a united Ireland.

    Ireland does not “belong” to the Catholics, if Irish protestants wish to be part of the Irish nation and still loathe popery, that is their privilege as citizens of the Irish Republic, Catholics don’t get to decide who will be Irish citizens and who won’t.

    You need to lose your triumphalist Catholic tribalism if you want to be accepted as a true Irish Republican.

  • Suilven

    Judging by his contribution to the live Gaza thread, Harry, RND will now be off to set a self-help group with Mary McAleese to bemoan how damned inconvenient those Freudian slips are when one’s in the middle of a good rant about dem pesky Prods…

  • Kathleen

    Cut the name dropping and man playing Gregory.

  • ggn

    UMH

    ““Until Ireland is free from Papist and Vatican rule there will never be peace”

    Could you expand this point making reference to evidence?

    Also, as a matter of interest you you belive in the existence of the ‘Sinn Fèin Oath’?

  • Ri Na Deise

    Suilven

    With your hawk like eye for any remark that may be regarded as a slight in some obscure way, you would appear to be ideally qualified for one of those ‘community watchdog’ type jobs that seem to be the vogue these days.

  • Earnan

    UMH

    Vatican Rule???

    Good thing JFK was killed when he was for America, right, he was about to secretly hand over the reins of the US military to the Vatican…

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Vatican ‘rule’ over the people. The Roman Catholic church makes the people slaves to their ideology. Those who happen to be Roman Catholic have no choice but to bring up their children Roman Catholic for fear of spiriatual damnation.

  • veritas

    garibaldy what complete and utter rubbish! Are you reading from a sticky script?

    The workers` party terrorized, threatened, murdered, maimed, robbed, extorted, (to name just a few)the community from which it came.

    The dogs on the street know all about the workers` party and their armed wing the official ira, group b, which is still armed, still shooting, attacking, robbing and an asset to MI5.

    Maybe you would kindly tell us how DL tried to ruin the Workers`s Party when they left after another major RTE documentary about the official ira, an organisation which the northern leadership of the wp/oira tried to keep secret from their southern membership!

    But then you were there on the ground, weren`t you..

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Why should the Cathlolics in N.Ireland and the Republic be told their money goes to the Vatican? Shouldn’t it be the other way round?

  • The people of God

    Resistance to the state in 1960s, was in much part Catholic. For an armed component CESA looked as useful as the squabbling OnhE,

    the commie IRA faction made the other part look safer, that’s simplistic, but true

    Catholics are not parcochial if you’ll ecuse the pun, and as Catholics, and with a branch in Philly etc, we could work out who had access to armalites, I think it was Philadelphia.

    “Cut the name dropping and man playing Gregory.”

    That’s a bit unfair, I’m a Vatican lobbyist who works in Riga and Belfast, what else is there but names to drop, the Latin military isn’t what it used to be.

    Catholics will defend Catholism, is what it says on the tin.

    the idea of SF or the SDLP having a franchise is simply not true and that’s the official position of the Catholic Church

    Which is why I (as a Catholic) was asked ( by Catholics in Riga) to look out for Cardinal Pujats in Belfast.

    I was also a bit of a thing ( record producer) in Riga long before Amnesty decided to go there.

    I also headed up the Nordic anti-trafficking component here to keep an eye out for stray Baltic dancers.

    Our part of the ‘sold as a doll’ campaign.

    In fairness the CATW asked me to do that before the Catholics in eastern Europe.

    Belfast
    Movie Star Cafe
    Rev Martin Smyth response to CATW statement

    http://www.withreference2.org/trafficking/2003/2003.06.htm

    (That kind of thing)

    Somebody still has a web-site for my many doings.

    “Vatican ‘rule’ over the people. The Roman Catholic church makes the people slaves to their ideology. Those who happen to be Roman Catholic have no choice but to bring up their children Roman Catholic for fear of spiriatual damnation.”

    Strictly speaking we always seek to ‘repair’ the misadventure of many centuries.

    Gregory

  • Gregory

    “But clearly The WP’s goal of building the unity of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter to build a united and socialist society remains a long way off.”

    They had working insights into ‘loyalism’. They never really understood ‘Protestants’.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]They never really understood ‘Protestants’.”[/i]

    Who really understands Roman catholicism? Protestants have been helping Catholics get rid of their physical and mental restraints to the Vatican and the Pope for ages.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    It’s up to individual Catholics to denounce the Pope and his Bishops.

  • Gregory

    1969

    In previous epochs, ‘the state’ would defend Catholicism.

    The Swiss soldiers are (OTOH) of a time when the Church had ‘modern’ armies, and that there were ideas to be (directly) defended, with soldiers.

    The 1969 attacks on the Church of the Most Holy Redeemer and Clonard Monastery and 1970 aattacks St. Matthew’s & etc.

    A Catholic perspective, has to be balanced against a tide of history, the idea of losing ‘buildings’ or ‘real estate’ is not as traumatic as it is sometimes portrayed.

    Catholicism doesn’t look to defenders who are opposed to the Vatican.

    Our clergy are murdered in various parts of the world, and our hierarchy are targeted.

    Whether Ireland is united or not, is very much a back burner issue. The Vatican will almost invariably favor the ‘most Catholic’ of any two potential benefactors.

    San Giovanni in Laterano (Pope)
    San Pietro in Vaticano (Patriarch of Constantinople)
    Santa Maria Maggiore (Patriarch of Antioch)
    San Paolo fuori le mura (Patriarch of Alexandria)

    In a real sense, Catholicism, had already retreated into itself,

    one loses cities, provinces, ideas, are more important than geography.

    Gregory

  • Gregory

    “Protestants have been helping Catholics get rid of their physical and mental restraints to the Vatican and the Pope for ages.”

    I think Canterbury has proven fashionable concessions more dangerous than Diocletian.

    Gregory