You’ll Still Need An Oak Stake To Kill The GOP

The Republicans are casting about figuring out what to do next. The 24/7 news channels are cutting them some slack because they are going nuts over what Obama is not telling them. Otherwise I’d be throwing longneck after longneck into Wolf Blitzer’s kisser as he lamented the doom and anticipated passage of the Grand Old Party to the Final Roundup with cloying gravitas.

So what just happened? How did the GOP get to this point? What is likely to happen to the GOP before the next election cycle? I’ll tackle the first part and follow up with the other two later.
Some things never change: With the campaign over some are engaged in the usual mutually assured destruction like the anonymous McCain staffers leaking all over Governor Palin and Palin’s media offensive (starting today, Larry King, no less) in retaliation. OK, someone has to give entertainers like O’Reilly and Matthews something to talk about. I’d just hate it if Chris’s leg stopped tingling.

Some are delving into what actually happened. The easy answer begins with noting that prior to mid-September the race was statistically tied, something that gives the Republicans the edge since they have an amazing ability to win these close races. Then the meltdown hit and wiser heads did not prevail. If you can keep you head when all about you are losing theirs……perhaps you just do not understand the situation.

It was not an altogether natural phenomenon. The House needed to pass the “bailout”. Meanwhile the representatives were being deluged with furious emails, phone calls, telegrams, faxes and letters warning of carnage if Wall Street got the golden parachute at the expense of Main Street. Minds were focused on the fact that those furious voters would go to the polls in a month. The best of all worlds would be for the measure to pass by just a few votes but who was going to expose the jugular? In times of crisis we come together and share the load, don’t we?

Only in Hollywood.

There was a masterful bit of political jujitsu when Speaker Pelosi correctly read the GOP’s floor management during the first attempt to pass a bill to prop up the financial system. She noticed that neither the minority leader nor the minority whip were doing anything to work the floor: This means that the 60% of the centrist Democrats (the flaming liberals were adamant against doing anything for business) and a piddling number of Republicans could vote for the measure, placing the majority of the heavy lifting on Democrats who would thusly suffer disproportionately at the polls. So Pelosi gave a Hell, fire & brimstone denunciation of Reagan and Reaganomics just before the vote that sent the Republicans into a fit of purple-faced passion, thereby stampeding the Republicans into voting 60% against the measure. Wall Street, in effect, gave Obama and the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee a $1.2 Trillion Dollar campaign contribution and the Republicans were left wearing the black hats. The 24/7 media then goes ape and now Main Street’s minds are finally focused.

There is more to it than that.

The basic problem is George W. Bush. McCain might as well as hired Osama Bin Laden to drive the Straight Talk Express.

Big problem number two was that the media was totally for Obama. This is not necessarily a partisan stance on their part since the concentration of corporate media power is solidly in Republican hands at the editorial and directorial level. What put them in the tank for Obama was the story: A rags to riches rise of a kid from the south side of Chicago (ignoring that he was raised in Hawaii) is the American dream. It cuts both ways since they were Bush’s Cuddle Club in 2000: Gore had all the charisma of a paperweight while Dubya was the Prodigal Son and deserved that fatted calf served at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. (Also we had a budget surplus at the time, Enron sold at 91 bucks a share and 911 was just an emergency telephone number). If they can sell it they will: If it bleeds, it leads.

McCain Mark 2008 is not the same model that did so well in 2000. The thread generally runs that that he sold his soul to the social conservatives (anti-abortion, prayer and creationism in public schools, etc.) when he went to Liberty University to kiss Fallwell’s ring. None of the several gestures like this that he made to the social conservatives within the party did much good. Meanwhile, this behavior was leading centrists on both sides to wonder what the hell was going on with Mr. Straight Shooter.

McCain’s ineffective gestures to the social conservatives directly led to the Palin pick. It was the best of all worlds: Pick up the social conservatives (and how!) and slingshot the scorning of Hillary by Obama to pick up the woman’s vote. I was impressed by the coldness and what I thought was the cunning of the pick at the time.

The warning signs were evident early, though, when Reagan’s former campaign manager, Ed Rollins, said that all the media attention focused on Governor Palin could pose a problem:
“As a campaign strategist I want to hear from the Vice Presidential candidate three times: The day they’re announced; The day they give their convention speech; And the night of the debate.
If I hear from them any other point of time or if you (Media) write about them any other time, it’s probably trouble.” Then we got the prepackaged opposition research from her gubernatorial campaign, followed by the Couric interview and, of course, Tina Fey. SNL ratings went through the roof and McCain looked like he had vetted his running mate on Facebook.

The last problem was that McCain was consumed by the battle between the angels of his better and worst natures. He would tear into Obama one week, contemplate on how this affected his personal honor and then pull back. To his eternal credit he steadfastly refused to bring Wright into the campaign. The 527 groups were not so inclined, though.

The political theatre of pausing his campaign fell flat and contributed to the on again, off again impression. It was odd that he dramatically called off his campaign and canceled the debate only to return to Washington to accomplish nothing and then continue with the debate anyway. The lack of a follow-through undermined all his efforts. It also made him appear to be erratic in the face of Obama’s unnerving serenity.

Next time, Nixon, populism and the dumbing down of the GOP.

  • KieranJ

    “It is sometimes better to remain silent and be thought a fool than it is to speak up and remove all doubt”

    Abraham Lincoln

  • You will forgive me if I do not wish to be your equal.

  • Sneakers O’Toole

    COURIC: Why isn’t it better, Governor Palin, to spend $700 billion helping middle-class families struggling with health care, housing, gas and groceries? … Instead of helping these big financial institutions that played a role in creating this mess?

    PALIN: Ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the health care reform that is needed to help shore up the economy– Oh, it’s got to be about job creation too. So health care reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions.

    Seriously… Anyone who would have Sarah Palin as Vice President (and by extension, possible leader of the free world) isn’t fit to run a bath.

  • Harry Flashman

    The Republican Party is matched only by the British Tories in being the biggest vote winning machine in political history (no, Saddam Hussein’s 97% approval ratings don’t count). Writing them off this soon would be a very big mistake indeed. They lost this time around, it happens but the US isn’t about to become a one party state, the Republicans will be back and already it is becoming very obvious where the Democrat weaknesses lie.

    The Democrats fought a brilliant campaign and they and Obama deserve full credit for what they achieved but frankly given that the incumbent Republican president’s poll ratings were kissing single figures and the biggest financial crisis hit the world in seventy years right in the middle of the campaign I hope I’m not being too churlish to point out that only scoring 1.8% of the popular vote more than George W Bush did in 2004 isn’t all that spectacular.

    Now Obama is in hock to a whole coalition of mutually incompatible interests who are convinced he owes them big time and most of whom are going to be seriously disappointed when he turns out not to be able to walk on the Potomac or turn water into finest champagne at the inauguration ball.

    Socially conservative blacks and Hispanics, student liberals, far left “community organisers”, Jews, Gays, feminists, white working class men, soccer Moms, centrist conservatives, the media talking heads etc who gave Big O his chance this time around cannot possibly all expect to be happy with what he’s achieved in four years time. Already there are disturbing reports from California which like many other states passed very socially conservative referenda. Apparently gays protesting the anti-gay marriage Prop 8 outside a black church berated the worshippers by saying “if you can call us faggots we can call you niggers” (sorry I seem to have lost the link to that story but I’ll try and dig it out), already the cracks are appearing in the fragile alliance, easy pickings for astute Republicans in the next four years.

    Furthermore given that the boy who was going to clean up Washington and kick out all the old school divisive lobbyists and hacks seems to have entrenched a whole heap of old school divisive lobbyists and hacks in his Washington team I’m not sure buyers’ remorse won’t have already set in long before January 20 next.

    I’d be delighted to discuss the Palin prospects in a rational, political discourse but I fear it’s not worth the bother as opponents of Palin refuse to examine her in a logical and dispassionate way instead relying on sneering and adolescent humour. They therefore will not have a clue about the woman and totally misunderstand her potential to cause quite an upset in the years to come.

  • Harry Flashman,

    He will serve the same banksters as most residents of the Whitehouse.

    As for your desire to defend Palin, she thought Africa was a country. That’s the kind of ignorance that sees young children being held back a year in primary school.

  • Can we just put the ‘media bias’ story to bed? As study after study shows, the media has very little influence on voting decisions in Presidential elections. Most influence comes from people’s already-existing attitudes and on conversations with friends.

    To the extent that they do, newspapers play a far greater role than television, but even then people tend only to read newspapers that confirm their opinions. In the US, the same goes for how people use radio, blogs etc. If you want to get a sense for how strange the bias story is, think about this: can you imagine the Newsletter swinging an electoral contest between the DUP and Sinn Féin?

    Assuming it exists at all, ‘media bias’ does not swing elections.

  • autocue

    As someone who supports the GOP and who couldn’t actually believe that a country like America would reject such an experienced, patriotic war veteran like McCain (who incidentally I supported back in 2000) I was gutted by the result.

    Now once the dust has settled I am filled with delight at the thought of the Obama coalition falling down round his ears.

    As to those predicting the demise of the GOP: LBJ thrashed Goldwater out of sight in 1964: people where talking about the demise of the conservative movement then. Within 8 years Nixon carried 49 out of the 50 states in the Union.

    Politics is cyclical and whilst this year definately belonged to the Democrats, the mid terms in 2 years time will, I believe tell a very different story.

  • autocue

    WR

    Where did she ever say Africa was a country? Cite a quotation please.

  • wild turkey

    Well SJ in my lifetime Dick Nixon remains the quintessential Republican and Orange County Californian. As an american I say this with sadness and shame, but considering the resilence of the GOP it probably will, like Nixon, bounce back and be accorded respect! Ugh…

    Anyway, below is an extract from Dr Thompsons obituary on the late Prezidente. Read it and weep…and ponder. over and out.

    ‘It was Richard Nixon who got me into politics, and now that he’s gone, I feel lonely. He was a giant in his way. As long as Nixon was politically alive — and he was, all the way to the end — we could always be sure of finding the enemy on the Low Road. There was no need to look anywhere else for the evil bastard. He had the fighting instincts of a badger trapped by hounds. The badger will roll over on its back and emit a smell of death, which confuses the dogs and lures them in for the traditional ripping and tearing action. But it is usually the badger who does the ripping and tearing. It is a beast that fights best on its back: rolling under the throat of the enemy and seizing it by the head with all four claws.

    That was Nixon’s style — and if you forgot, he would kill you as a lesson to the others. Badgers don’t fight fair, bubba. That’s why God made dachshunds.

    Nixon was a navy man, and he should have been buried at sea. Many of his friends were seagoing people: Bebe Rebozo, Robert Vesco, William F. Buckley Jr., and some of them wanted a full naval burial.

    These come in at least two styles, however, and Nixon’s immediate family strongly opposed both of them. In the traditionalist style, the dead president’s body would be wrapped and sewn loosely in canvas sailcloth and dumped off the stern of a frigate at least 100 miles off the coast and at least 1,000 miles south of San Diego, so the corpse could never wash up on American soil in any recognizable form…

    If the right people had been in charge of Nixon’s funeral, his casket would have been launched into one of those open-sewage canals that empty into the ocean just south of Los Angeles. He was a swine of a man and a jabbering dupe of a president. Nixon was so crooked that he needed servants to help him screw his pants on every morning. Even his funeral was illegal. He was queer in the deepest way. His body should have been burned in a trash bin.

  • autocue

    Wild Turkey

    A delightful insight into the sort of thinking of Democratic Party supporters. I urge every Republican to read this post and re-double their efforts to kick Obama, Pelosi and the rest of the bums out.

  • kensei

    Comparisons with 1968 are misleading. Attacks on Great Society programs didn’t hit home until later, Nixon was elected on a law and order platform. We’re talking about an a year where both MLK and JFK were shot, here were riots at the Democratic convention and an immensely strong third party candidate. And still the Democrat ran it close.

    There is nothing like the chaos of that year likely in the near future. Plus there is a bit more pragmatism from the various coalitions than in say, 1994. Obama now has the advantage of incumbency and that will help even if he doe seven an ok job. Fortunately for the GOP the defeat is nothing like as heavy as 1964. Some new ideas and a good candidate could turn it around. But hoping your opponent will blow up is poor strategy from anyone.

    Dems thought that might happen in 1980,

  • Neil

    As Michael Moore says, you can vote Republican and they will openly tell you about the unpopular decisions they’re making. Or you can vote Democrat who’ll tell you they’re making the popular decisions while at the time sneaking the unpopular stuff through the back door.

    He says a Democrat is basically a Republican in disguise, and while he’s obviously not a Republican (or a Democrat either, according to the book) at least they tell you the truth. Democrats lie. We’ll have to give Obama a chance, but I would say the next election is at best 50/50 at this stage, and he has it all to lose.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    Republicans seem very disappointed that the Democrats won.

    Who would they consider to lead the charge into the next election batttle in four years time…. Sarah Palin?

    Anyway, I was thinking which party has produced the most renowned Presidents?

    In the Red Corner we have such heavyweights as Lincoln, Grant, Teddy Roosevelt, Coolidge, Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan and the Bush’s for the Republicans.

    In the Blue Corner we have Jackson, Wilson, Franklin D Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, Carter, Clinton for the Democrats.

    BTW that great super capitalist Reagan (who’s great grand daddy that loved a drop of the crater as well as the mass and came a long way from Ballyporeen in County Tipperary) is to be given the credit for inaugurating the annual St. Patricks Day ceremony where the Taoiseach presents the US President with a bowl of shamrocks from the dear auld Emerald Isle. Good ol’ Ronnie!

  • autocue

    kensei

    It’s a good job I didn’t draw a comparison with 68 then isn’t it?

  • picador

    kensei,

    You mean RFK and MLK were assassinated in the same year, right?

  • John East Belfast

    There is no way you can write off the Republicans because of this result any more than you could write of the Tories 2 or 3 years ago or Labour 10 or 12 years ago.

    These things come in cycles it will probably just be two terms this time because within 4 years – unless Obama is totally useless – things can only get better with the economy and the wars. By the end of his second term it might be a different matter.

    His desire to redistribute wealth and his strange stance against secret ballots for Unions is unsettling and will have the Middle classes and Business community rattled by 2016.

    This Election was always the Democrats to lose and the Democrat would have to been very bad candidate to do so.
    However when their choice was between a woman (Hilary Clinton at that) and a Coloured I thought they had blown it.

    However McCain’s biggest liability was not Palin – it was Bush. People wanted change and although the link between the President and his Party is not the same as this side of the Pond the entire Republican Party was tainted and McCain was ultimately viewed as more of the same.

  • kensei

    picador

    Yup

    Autocue

    You mean RFK and MLK were assassinated in the same year, right?

    1968 was the key to 1972. No 1968, no 1972.

  • Shirley McGuffin

    “Seriously… Anyone who would have Sarah Palin as Vice President (and by extension, possible leader of the free world) isn’t fit to run a bath. ”

    Sneakers, the USA is a rogue country with bases in ocver 100 countries. It possesses and has used weapons of mass destruction. Over 1 million of its citizens are HIV+. They repeatedly break UN resolutions; they have broken the Geneva Convention on countless occasions; they regularly invade and terrorise other countries. They are the enemy of freedom, not its champions.

  • Harry Flashman

    Richard Nixon was an extremely popular president who achieved many good things while in office but whose shady past (although I’m fairly certain he wasn’t a serial rapist) caught up with him in his second term. Rather than perjure himself he chose the honourable way out and resigned.

    Bill Clinton was an extremely popular president who achieved many good things while in office but whose shady past (and he in all probability might well have been a serial rapist) caught up with him in his second term. Rather than choose the honourable out and resign he chose to perjure himself.

    Democrats think Richard Nixon was the devil incarnate and Bill Clinton was one of their greatest presidents. That tells you a lot about supporters of the Democratic Party.

    Sarah Palin is now being dismissed as a stupid idiot. Ronald Reagan was also dismissed as a stupid idiot as was George HW Bush and later his son George W Bush. In fairness Democrat supporters never claimed Bob Dole or John McCain were stupid.

    The definition of a stupid presidential candidate is therefore the candidate who beats the Democrat candidate.

    That again tells you a lot about Democratic Party supporters.

  • autocue

    kensei

    I accept that. The point is however that in the space of 8 years we went from people talking about LBJ’s “Great Society” and the building of a liberal consensus to the Nixon landslide and people talking about a Republican hegemony. Politics is cyclical and whilst the Dems may be up today, they could just as easily be down in four years.

    Already the signs are there – Black baptists versus gay-rights protestors in California. Both groups supported Obama. Someone is going to be disappointed.

    Anti-Iraq War protestors demanding immediate withdrawal are going to be disappointed.

    The coalition he built is extremely fragile and I believe it will fall apart over the course of his presidency.

    Of course the Republicans have some serious work to do, but their position is nowehere near as dire as it was in the 1960s. Lets face it – this was a 53%-47% win for the Dems, not a landslide by any means.

  • circles

    The thing is Harry, W actually is an idiot. You can pretend otherwise but even you can’t truy believe otherwise.

    Comparing what happened between Clinton and Lewinsky with Watergate reflects extremely poorly on you and what you think is important in politics. There is very, very little to be compared. Clinton’s crime was no doubt an abuse of his position but was still an act carried out between consenting adults. The right’s obsession with it, and the foam at the mouth hunt led by Star was embarassing. Nixon’s behaviour was an outrage and he deserved his miserable reputation as a disgraced president.

  • kensei

    auto

    “Realignment elections” are something of misnomers. It depends on how you govern after a big win, and a little luck. If the recession of the early 80s had lasted a bit longer, Reagan might have got kicked out after one term or at least had his status greatly diminished.

    I think you underestimate how long the Dems have been without influence, and how desperate they are to get some things done. In 1992 health care didn’t come on the radar for a full year, interests fought among themselves and the thing got canned. This time there already moves to seek out a workable compromise and get the interests lined up, by all accounts. All but the most radical antiwar protestors will be happy with the correct direction of movement. Obama will disappoint some people yes, but he could make gains elsewhere. Incumbents normally have an advantage.

    They could stuff it up. Quite possible. But not necessarily at this point likely, and unlikely to be anything like the way it happened 64-72. The entire South switched allegiance, more or less!

  • Harry Flashman

    No circles, you miss the point, Nixon and Clinton both were faced with the same crime; perjury. Perjury is a very grave crime indeed.

    The issue was not what two consenting adults got up to in the Oval Office nor whether Nixon did or did not know about the break in. The issue was whether a president would lie on oath about these things.

    Nixon resigned rather than perjure himself, Clinton perjured himself, that is the fundamental issue, a simple one that gets confused in the mind of people who don’t pay attention.

    No one cared what Clinton got up to in his private life provided it was between consenting adults (although it is fairly certain that quite a few of Clinton’s targets were not consenting, a bigger crime in my view than breaking into an office) but if a president is prepared to swear an oath in court to tell the truth and then lie to that court then that is a bloody huge matter of importance. Nixon didn’t, Clinton did.

    Nixon had more honour than Clinton.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    Ah I suppose every US President have their good and bad side.

    Regarding Nixon, but he did melt the ice of the Cold War by meeting the leaders of China and the USSR, despite Watergate etc…

    Reagan of course did his bit by overseeing the tearing down of the Berlin Wall and the demise of the USSR but his record is tarnished with the horrors of Central America, ie the Sandinistas, the CIA etc…etc…

    Clinton’s bombings of Somalia, Afghanistan, Sudan etc… exacerbated Islamic relationships with the West resulting with the subsequent 9/11 retaliation, despite being a charmer, womaniser and a popular president.

    It will take some time/years for the after effects of the Bush campaign in Iraq to be seen!

  • circles

    I think your last line summed up your logic just nicely Harry.
    You squirmed around trying to compare like with unlike, made a snide insinuation that Clinton was a rapist (any proof there Harry?), and then conclude that Nixon was an honourable man but Clinton isn’t.
    Well done Harry. You made my point better than I could myself.

  • autocue

    In time history will judge Richard Nixon as a truly great President. He opened up China. Signed the SALT treaties and ended the longest war in American history. More than anyone Nixon laid the foundation for the end of the Cold War.

    Clinton had his good points, but I think they were less significant than the achievements of Nixon in office.

  • autocue

    and just to show that I am not some sort of GOP-is-always-right freak, I think that history will judge GWB’s second term as nothing short of catastrophic.

  • Long John Silver

    Harry Flashman,

    have to pull you up on your warped version of the noble Nixon resignation. He was given a golden opportunity to avoid prosecution, and it was this blatant lack of accountability and justice that was one of the black marks against his successor.

  • wild turkey

    autocue

    so glad you are delighted… especially after one of the sleaziest,tackiest and incompetent presidential campaigns of modern times went down in, uh, flames.

    as the GOP plans to kick the bums out I look forward to a Sarah Palin/Joe the Plumber ticket 2012 running with the slogan ‘The Scum also Rises’

    On your assessment of Mr Nixon, why wait history? It appears you have already rushed, or at least limbaughed, to judgement.

    Hope the door doesn’t hit you guys on the way out.

    Have a great day.

  • Greenflag

    It will be a while before the GOP can come up with a new ‘image ‘ Right now they are discredited because of the economy and Bush’s legacy .

    Even now Bush’s point man in the Treasury Mr Paulson is doing a U turn on where the 700 billion bail out should go ? Should GM be bailed out a la AIG ? . It will be 6 months into Obama’s presidency before the Republicans will be even able to catch a glimpse of a possible future politcal scenario .

    By 2016 they may have lost enough elections to begin to realise that ‘trickle down ‘ economics and ‘free market’ chaos in healthcare and education is not what the American people want.

    Blaming Palin or McCain’s poor judgement on his choice of VP won’t cut it , just as was focusing on ‘Who is Obama ‘ while introducing American voters to ‘Joe the Plumber’ .

    2016 sounds like it might be the first good year for a ‘resurrection’ for Republcans – the American variety not the NI 😉

  • Comrade Stalin

    Harry,

    Long John Silver beat me to it. Nixon resigned in order to avoid being accountable in court. As part of the deal, his vice president issued him with a pardon. I am not sure how you can describe this as honourable. An honourable man would have stood trial and taken a bullet in order to preserve the greater good.

  • When it comes down to it, the BO campaign organization was perhaps the most effective and pervasive we have seen in the US at least half a century — if not longer. If you are looking for causes of the GOP defeat, look to the Dems and how they generated votes. The recipe was (1) a charismatic candidate, (2) the ward politics mentality unique to the liberal Chicago pols who ran the campaign (having lived there four years, I can vouch that it is truly unique), (3) the use of Saul Alinsky community organizing practices (via Marshall Ganz of Harvard’s JFK School who ran “Camp Obama”), (4) a double loop learning approach to campaigning (they literally “learned” quite a bit dealing with the Clintons), (5) PLENTY OF MONEY generated by an online fund raising operation that is unmatched anywhere (they are still at it, trying to pay off the debt of the Democratic Party), (6) a web 2.0 operation the personalized everything and fit the technology into the ground game — literally!; and (7) and an awareness of what to expect from the Rove types who were running McCain’s campaign.

    Sure, it helped to have Palin and the media in the mix, but the GOP campaign machine would have conquered again if it was not for the magnificant campagin machinery the BO’s folks put together….

    (It also helped that lots of folks drank the Kool Aid early and often….)

  • “(5) PLENTY OF MONEY generated by an online fund raising operation that is unmatched anywhere (they are still at it, trying to pay off the debt of the Democratic Party), (6) a web 2.0 operation the personalized everything and fit the technology into the ground game—literally!;”

    At the start of his campaign he had some of the best technical resources of this valley at his disposal. The fundraising group on the net cut their teeth on the Kerry campaign and also was guided into the 2006 Congressional races by Pelosi so they had most of the bugs worked out before they went to work for Obama. There was a write up about it in the Atlantic this June.

    I suggest that you add yet another reason. (7) Obama was a Stealth Candidate: He had no record to attack and his unflappability rendered no gaffes to pounce upon. We have yet to find what he is about.

  • I don’t think “stealth” applies — his writing involved memoirs that hardly hid anything. In fact, probably got most the possible personal negatives off the table, and if anything may have exaggerated things like his drug use according to acquaintances.

    The gaffes have already started — but less Bush-like screw ups and more like sharp sense of humor that he needs to control (unless he wants to emulate Bush’s pal, Berlusconi).

  • Wilde Rover

    autocue,

    I was basing that on a quote from a Fox News reporter.

    Harry Flashman,

    “but if a president is prepared to swear an oath in court to tell the truth and then lie to that court then that is a bloody huge matter of importance.”

    And that’s got you pissed off at Clinton? Not the 500,000 dead children?

    I guess their deaths don’t warrant a mention.

    And it seems everyone here is of that opinion.

    Well then, I guess it’s OK for me to think that the deaths during the Troubles mean nothing too.

    That’s right boys and girls, if you had anyone die during the Troubles I am here to tell you that their deaths don’t matter, because if 500,000 children don’t matter then who cares about a few thousand dead?

  • Harry Flashman

    OK I’ll take this nice and slowly for circles who doesn’t seem to have been paying attention in the 1990’s and thinks that Ken Starr was some sort of puritan moralist trying to catch out Clinton on some hanky panky instead of being an honest law official who was trying to ascertain whether the President of the United States was a perjurer, in other words a criminal. Starr conclusively proved and Clinton’s own words proved that he was a perjurer.

    Circles do you understand how serious a criminal offence perjury is? Let me give you two examples; Jeffrey Archer spent several years in prison not for having sex with a prostitute but for lying about that fact in court. Jonathan Aiken spent several years in prison not for spending a night in the Paris Hilton but for lying about the fact in court. Clinton lied under oath, he is a criminal.

    Paula Jones fought long and hard to prove she was sexually harassed by Clinton, sexual harassment is by definition “without consent”, she is the ultimate example of someone ‘speaking truth to power’, for her pains she was vilified and slandered by the rich and powerful but at the end of the day we now know that she was in fact correct. President Clinton was a sexual predator who forced unwanted sexual attention on vulnerable women. There are numerous other examples all along the same line of women who allege he sexually assaulted them and in one case alleged she was raped by him. Paula Jones was telling the truth I suspect the other women were too. Clinton then lied under oath about his sexual deviancies.

    Executive summary: Bill Clinton was a lying, sleazy, slimeball. A man of no honour.

  • Harry Flashman,

    “President Clinton was a sexual predator who forced unwanted sexual attention on vulnerable women”

    Harry, if you are the type of person who is OK with 500,000 dead children then why are you getting worked up over a little rape?

  • autocue

    turkey (how apt!)

    “especially after one of the sleaziest,tackiest and incompetent presidential campaigns of modern times went down in, uh, flames”

    But I thought Obama won?

  • Harry Flashman

    “Harry, if you are the type of person who is OK with 500,000 dead children then why are you getting worked up over a little rape?”

    WR, I didn’t understand what you meant the first time, I still don’t.

  • Wilde Rover

    Harry Flashman,

    “WR, I didn’t understand what you meant the first time, I still don’t.”

  • Greenflag

    That Stake is still being hammered in according to the latest report from Alaska on bloomberg .

    ‘Democratic challenger Mark Begich leads by 814 votes in his bid to oust incumbent Alaska Senator Ted Stevens, according to the state’s elections division.

    Alaska is still counting absentee ballots from the Nov. 4 election. Anchorage Mayor Begich had been trailing Stevens by 3,257 votes until state officials started counting approximately 90,000 absentee ballots yesterday, a process that may stretch in to next week.

    Begich now leads Stevens 132,196 votes to 131,382 votes, according to the Alaska Division of Elections Web site.

    Officials counted approximately 50,000 ballots yesterday and may finish counting the remaining 40,000 tomorrow, according to Jonathan O’Quinn, an elections program manager.

    Stevens, 84, was convicted in federal court last month of failing to report $250,000 in gifts from an Alaska oil services company. He is the longest-serving Republican in the U.S. Senate.

    The race is one of three Senate contests still undecided more than a week after the election. A recount is under way in Minnesota and a Georgia contest will be decided by a runoff next month. ‘

    In Minnesota Franken is behind by 200 votes and narrowing and in Georgia Chambliss will have tough time in the run off .

  • circles

    Harry you can wriggle on the hook but you’ve squarely got it stuck it up your own backside.

    So its not the perjury that pisses you off about Clinton now it seems, its his “sexual deviancy”, and yet you said previously “No one cared what Clinton got up to in his private life provided it was between consenting adults”. Cake or eat it Harry?

    And we can assume that you still think Nixon was a man of honour (as you tried ignoring your own foot in mouth claim from your last post).

    And what about George W – another man of honour, despite the catastrophic and unnecessary invasion of Iraq? Or can we pin all those unnecessary deaths on this “”lying, sleazy, slimeball? (Or is that only a label to stick on people whose sexual behaviour you don’t agree with? So how would you label those responsible for civilian deaths and torture Harry?)

  • Harry Flashman

    No circles it was the fact that rather than resign Clinton chose to perjure himself. Nixon did the honourable thing and resigned, Clinton didn’t, hence; Nixon more honourable.

    Not too complicated even for someone who seems on the verge of hysteria like you.

    As for the 500,000 dead babies nonsense, absolute unsubstantiated bollicks.

  • Wilde Rover

    circles,

    “So how would you label those responsible for civilian deaths and torture Harry?)”

    Come on now circles, by my count Bill, at around 1,500,000 in Iraq, is still around a quarter of a million heads ahead of W.

    But of course W still has Afghanistan, so that pushes him closer.

    Let’s just say they are both winners.

    But I think we will have to wait to see what country is attacked by the next president before we can declare an overall winner.

    (although if he uses nukes it’s sort of cheating)

  • Wilde Rover

    Harry Flashman,

    “As for the 500,000 dead babies nonsense, absolute unsubstantiated bollicks.”

    The link provided above shows Madeline Albright on 60 Minutes saying the deaths of the 500,000 children was worth it.

    “Unsubstantiated: not substantiated; unproved or unverified”

    She verified it on national TV.

    But if you want to live in a fantasy world then I will leave you to write your letter to Santa.

    Have you been a good boy this year?

  • “Democratic challenger Mark Begich leads by 814 votes in his bid to oust incumbent Alaska Senator Ted Stevens, according to the state’s elections division.”

    Senator Ted Stevens will be a convicted felon when the appeals process is complete. Thereupon he will lose his freedom (possibly), some of his civil rights (you betcha) and his Senate seat (dead certain)

    If he wins, the Senate seat will be vacated and a special election will be called to fill the seat. In most states the Governor fills the seat but Alaska governor, Frank Murkowski filled the seat with his daughter, Lisa, in 2002 when he abandoned that Senate seat to become Governor of Alaska. Apparently this pissed a few people off enough to pass an initiative in 2004 to establish the special election. Lisa Murkowski won the seat in the 2004 general election by three points and is the junior Senator from Alaska.

    Enter the possibility for a Richter 7 FUBAR: Clause 2 of 17th Amendment of the US Constitution states:

    Clause 2. When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of each State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.

    At the end of the donnybrook (Federal Court, Appeals Court, US Supreme Court yada yada yada) that would certainly follow a Stevens election to and his ultimate expulsion from the Senate there are two possible outcomes:
    Special Election Declared Unconstitutional: The Governor of Alaska can appoint the person to fill the seat. Here we have speculation that Palin could appoint herself. Imagine the brouhaha after that. Just the CNN profits alone could pull us all out of the slump. It would also give Palin more credible exposure on the national level. Enough, perhaps, to make her a viable candidate in 2012 or 2016.
    Special Election Declared Constitutional: Given the amount of face time that Governor Palin has been given since the GOP convention, she is a likely winner in the special election if she is inclined to run. Ditto credible exposure.

    If Stevens does not win it makes things soooooo much simpler. Bad news for Governor Palin, though.

    Beware gods with a sense of humor.