“the year of delusion..”

Yesterday the Northern Ireland Assembly passed a motion calling on the Culture Minister mark the 150th anniversary of the 1859 Revival. You can read the debate here. Of course, as in other cases, the Minister may simply ignore what the Assembly says.. But perhaps they should also bear in mind what historian Eamon Phoenix had to say in the report for Stormont Live, after noting that the 1859 Revival “coincided with the birth of what was known as Ultramontanism [in Ireland], or Ultramontane Catholicism..”

“The net result of both the Revival and Cardinal Cullen’s crusade was to widen the gulf between Catholic and Protestant in Ireland as the island moved into the late-19th Century.”


And, for completeness, here’s the studio discussion with DUP MLA David Simpson.

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  • Lad ie

    Had the assembly been up and running in 1996 or 2006 they could have marked the 150th or 160th anniversary of the Great Famine which caused Orange Marches to proceed solemnly due to “our loyal brethern” “being thinned out”

  • William

    The .ie in your ID gives the game away as to your political viewpoint…..however, I thought the Oirsh believe that it was only RCs who died during the Famine….do you believe different?

  • Rory

    Thankfully the prevelance nowadays of gay discos and nightclubs allows a more healthy outlet for ardent young men with a penchant for swooning and dramatic gestures and saves all their neighbours from the nuisance of being loudly preached at and condemned to damnation for having a fag and a pint at the end of a working day.

    If we must have a revival let us have it in something with a more uplifting philosophical purpose such as a new flourishing of cinema noir and hard boiled fiction.

    For a great novel centered in the struggle between the Old Catholic Church and Cullen’s brand of Romanism I can do no other than heartily recommend Thomas Kilroy’s The Big Chapel, winner of the Guardian Fiction Prize and short-listed for the Booker in 1971 and now republished by Faber Finds in paperback at £14 rrp.

  • John Nevin, a kinsman of mine, described an earlier religious revival in the USA in 1804 in a letter home to his brother in north Antrim.

  • Kilroy was there, Rory?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    A great piece, where is the Gerry and his counter-argument?

  • Greenflag

    Nevin ,

    ‘John Nevin, a kinsman of mine, described an earlier religious revival in the USA in 1804 ‘

    Fascinating read Nevin . I wonder what your kinsman’s view would have been of the recent defeated applicant for the second highest office in the American Republic one Sarah Palin undergoing a religious ritual to protect her against the ministrations of evil ‘witches ‘ ?

    200 years on from your knisman’s time the English are getting around to ‘pardoning ‘ the 400 or so ‘ witches ‘who were found guilty and executed a couple of hundred years ago . Meanwhile the Scots are thinking about pardoning the 4,000 witches who were found guilty of consorting with devils etc back in those days also .

    There were of course no ‘witches’ in Northern Ireland at least up until Bernadette McAliskey (nee Devlin ) was elected back in the 70’s. IIRC there was an article published by one of Paisley’s rags which identified Bernadette Develin as being in league with Satan – Not the Great Satan mind you just the regular Satan 🙁

    Fast forward to the ‘culture wars’ of Northern Ireland 2008 and we find that to the ever lenghtening list of ‘memorial dates , 1641,1690, 1798 , 1802 , 1848, 1912 , 1916 , 1922, 1969 , 1998 , 2007 and the Bloody Sundays , Fridays and Poppie Days and Easter Lily commemorations, etc etc etc -now 1859 is being touted as Ultramontane on one side and the Year of Revival by the other .

    I hate to be a commemoration party pooper but could a case not be made for ‘enough ‘ already ?

    Northern Ireland seems set to become the world’s first Necropolitan (worship of the dead )State 🙁

    And with a zombie Assembly that’s neither dead or alive -it seems that NI has just the right kind of assembly to govern the ‘dead’ but not the ‘living ‘ 🙁

  • IIRC there was a witch, allegedly, in Stranocum, Greenflag. Her name was Mullan.

    I think this would have been John’s answer: “I cannot approve of it as God is a God of order and not of confusion.”

  • Big Maggie

    You know, it’s this kind of subject that makes me rethink my view of religion i.e.* that it’s not a good thing by and large. When I read Pete’s link about the 1859 Revival I think, hmm, lots of good came of that.

    * William, what do you think my use of i.e. denotes? Same as Lad(d)ie’s? Or something else again?

  • Abe Simpson

    Last witch prosecuted under the Witchcraft Act in the UK was during the world second war.

  • Dewi

    You want religious revivals – do them properly Evan Roberts didn’t mess about….

  • Greenflag

    Nevin ,

    ‘I cannot approve of it as God is a God of order and not of confusion.

    One would hope so. And while there is an order at the centre of all life -all life being the one in origination nevetheless ‘confusion ‘ has been the lot of man’s vainglorious attempts to see himself as the pinnacle of creation when we are in reality just the lucky one out of twenty or so ‘hominidae’ to have survived .

    But for a real sense of the ‘confusion ‘ sown in the minds of the impressionable young- Mr Dave Allen cannot be bested .

    ‘http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk

  • Greenflag

    apologies

  • Greenflag

    Big maggie,

    ‘When I read Pete’s link about the 1859 Revival I think, hmm, lots of good came of that. ‘

    Okay I’ll concede that keeping the lads away from the demon drink by having them pray and be preached to for 6 evenings a week was better for their physical health but think of the ‘psychological ‘ fallout still extant today .

    I wonder if the ‘roots’ for this 1859 revival were broader than just a reaction to the local ‘thuggerey’ of the time ? Had the 1859 anything to do with what Dewi shows re the Welsh revival and the doubts sprung in the minds of the faithful by the emergence of the ideas of Charles Darwin and others of the time ?

  • pauljames

    Dewi
    We are only playing at this compared to the Land of Revivals. but Welshmen disbanding rugby clubs as a result? Burn the heretics!

  • abucs

    It’s interesting that often, in great times of personal tragedy, or in great times of communial tragedy, such as just after the famine, there seems to be a huge ‘wake up call’ as to what is real and what is important.

    Sometimes when things seem to be going along without tragedy or challenge, it’s easy to fall into a kind of sleep where we object to anything that might ‘wake us up’ from our comfort and we prefer to not have to think too much about such things.

    I think it is very healthy for protestants and Christians generally to mark one of many revivals and it is a healthy part of the Orange Order culture that should be promoted at the expense of other aspects of its culture IMHO.

    Interestingly, and unfortunately sad, to hear the comments of Mr Ramsey of the SDLP. In contrast, it was gladdening to hear Paisley Juniors’ comments.

  • Earnan

    greenflag

    what happened in 1802?

  • Harry Flashman

    Greenflag, let Sarah Palin go mate, relax it’s over, your guy did it and good luck to him, time to move on from Sarah now I think. The bogey woman’s gone no need to hide in terror any more.

  • Shirley McGuffin

    If Ireland’s native aboriginals accepted the Reformation, there would have been no problem. Ireland would have been a happy part of the Empire. At least they no longer breed like flies, so progress is being made. This is a good piece and shows Rome’s ultimate responsibility for the whole mess. Beware another gunpowder plot, i say.

  • Greenflag

    Earnan ,

    ‘what happened in 1802? ‘

    I’m sure something happened and if it did’nt it ought to have – Repeal of the Union at that time would have been good and would have forestalled a lot of future constituional grief perhaps;)

  • Greenflag

    abucs ,

    ‘I think it is very healthy for protestants and Christians ‘

    Are you suggesting that protestants are somehow separate from Christians ?

    With remembrance and celbration of ‘revivalism’ now becoming ‘currency’ in Northern Ireland’s cultural religious wars one wonders will this apprentice theocracy now be inundated with demands to revive ‘remembrances ‘ of the Spanish inquistion and other major periods of ‘enhanced ‘ faith moving periods in European history .Where will this shite end ?

    Roll up roll up folks – it’s Northern Ireland’s eternal year long periannual festival of religious revival remembrances .

    What odds for a Calvin week ? Erasmus Fortnight , John Knox Month , Cardinal Cullen season , St William of Orange’s Day , etc etc etc etc .

    Is there ever to be an end to this unadulterated
    shitology emanating from the born agains and retards of NI’s political mad ‘uncles ‘ and the ayatollahs of backwardness , ignorance and superstition :(?

  • Big Maggie

    Greenflag

    I wonder if the ‘roots’ for this 1859 revival were broader than just a reaction to the local ‘thuggerey’ of the time

    Oh sow the seeds of doubt in my mind why don’t you! You’re probably right and that the roots were broader, also that the repercussions extended even into this century. Still, I can’t help thinking that religion has a way of reaching thuggish minds that rationality can’t. Let’s face it, threats of everlasting fire do more to concentrate the savage mind than threats of community service ever can.

  • Greenflag

    harry flashman,

    ‘time to move on from Sarah now I think’

    Sure Harry time to move forward to 1690 again eh ?

    ‘The bogey woman’s gone no need to hide in terror any more.’

    We’ll await the Alaskan Senate result before Sarah the witch ‘vampire ‘ is finally staked :)She may yet be ‘revived’ in Senatorial format to renew the struggle for her babbling God and her Joe the plumber 🙁

    With America facing it’s greatest economic crisis in 80 years the only response Republicans could come up with was Sarah Palin the ice hockey mom and Joe the plumber and ask who was Barack Obama.
    Out of touch with the real concerns of most Americans is why they lost by 7 million votes . American demographics are shifting now permanently beyond the reach of the neo conservatives and their born again dupe followers.

    Maybe it’s time for the born agains to go back to the basics and learn from the man himself via his interpreter of course:)

    code word -nose knickers

  • Greenflag

    big maggie ,

    ‘I can’t help thinking that religion has a way of reaching thuggish minds that rationality can’t.’

    The old fight fire with more fire line ?. Fight unreason with more unreason ? You have a point-man not being an entirely rational being . History however has shown us how the leaders of ‘religion ‘ are not impervious to using the thuggish minds imbued with the ‘right version of unreason to further the particular ‘religious ‘ ends of their mentors .

    ‘Let’s face it, threats of everlasting fire do more to concentrate the savage mind than threats of community service ever can.’

    Even in the established Churches ( Anglican , RC , etc ) the ‘rantin & raving hell fire and brimstone purveyors ‘ are now passe.

  • Harry Flashman

    GF, Obama did a great job winning the election, fair play to him, he deserves full credit for what he achieved but before you lose the run of yourself with the idea that the Republicans are now doomed to permanent defeat can I just point out that he achieved a percentage of the vote only a fraction higher than George Bush in 2004 and I don’t recall anyone saying the Democrats were “permanently” defeated back then.

    Furthermore he didn’t achieve the predicted 60 seat majority in the senate that was widely predicted and at the same time many very conservative social issues referenda were passed by wide margins in many states.

    As I have said elsewhere, the US today is precisely the same country it was under Bush; a 49%/49% nation and the winner of the presidential election will be the man whose 49% can persuade the undecided 2% in a couple of swing states to vote for their guy.

    If you seriously believe that the Democrats will “permanently” govern the United States you need your head seeing to quickly. I know you’ve long convinced yourself in your terror that weird snake worshipping evangelical Christians are going to take over the world but if you could calm down and try concentrating on real life political issues you might see a clearer picture of what is happening in US society.

  • Greenflag

    harry flashman ,

    ‘As I have said elsewhere, the US today is precisely the same country it was under Bush; a 49%/49% nation ‘

    Was harry . It’s now a 30 /40 /30 nation with both Republican and Democratic hard cores making up the outer 30’s . The 40’s are made up of independents and the ‘secular ‘ vote . To the above can be added the 30 % of non voters most of whom belong to the bottom end of the economic scale in the USA .

    The Democrats should have won in 2000 and they did in terms of the popular vote but lost the Presidency due to the Elector College vote. 2004 was mid war election and just as Thatcher did in the UK -Bush used the war as his re-election platform .

    What has been happening in the USA is that the ‘demographic ‘ changes underway since the 1980’s are now beginning to impact in a way which has major implications for the Republicans . The new ‘majority ‘ forming in the USA will be composed of a broad coalition of African Americans , a majority of Hispanics , a majority of under 40 whites , and a majority of women of all races . Geographically it will be very strong in the North East and West Coast and the Mid West Great Lakes region, with Virginia , Florida , Nevada , Colorado and New Mexico being secondary support bases with Arizona post McCain, likely to join that base .

    BTW I read the New Hampshire State legislature now has a majority of women members the first I believe in the world . And there’s not a single Republican congressman in all of the New England States .

    The Republicans have driven themselves into the old confederate southern cul de sac with Texas and the other States of the old South now formng the core republican support base. Their only other support base will be the low population density States of Wyoming , Dakotas , Montana , Idaho , and Utah with their few electoral college votes . The Electoral College Vote looks like it will now be heavily tilted in the Democrats favour going forward . By 2012 and 2016 the demographic trends at present underway will have strenghtened further in the Democrats favour and in a direction not favourable to the present Republican base .

    ‘Furthermore he Obama )didn’t achieve the predicted 60 seat majority in the senate that was widely predicted ‘

    I believe it was a hope more than a prediction. And it’s very close although not likely to reach 60 . It’s 58 as of now . In the State of Virginia formerly a ‘red ‘ state there is now not only a Democratic Governor but 2 Democratic Senators . Increasing Democratic representation in the Senate by almost 20% is imo a tremendous achievment given that it’s extremely difficult to unseat incumbent Senators (think Stevens of Alaska ) even those found guilty by the courts on corruption charges .

    And on that note Harry the ’49’ niner I can only hope that you are as accurate in your future political predictions re American politics as you have been in the past;)

    Next time though, keep away from the turf accountants or stick only to the footy and the gee gees 🙂

  • Harry Flashman

    GF, seriously do you believe that the US is about to become a one party state?

    Do you think that maybe just possibly many of the new voters who today are so enamoured of the Democrats might, as they get older and raise families and try to meet expenses and pay the government taxes, think twice about always trooping like sheep into the polling booths to pull the lever marked “D”?

    Honestly, I mean I’ve said it before and I don’t want to appear rude but you do sometimes sound like an idealistic first year university student stuck in a time warp, I’m older than you I think, so maybe because I’ve seen all this before I can understand your adolescent excitement but do try to calm down a bit.

    The Democrats won it this time, good luck to them, I wish them well (which oddly enough is something you never hear Democrat supporters saying when Republicans win) but for goodness sake history hasn’t suddenly come to an end. The Democrats are just a political party like any other, they are not the manifestation of heavenly virtue sent down from on high to rid the world of all things evil, they aren’t the political incarnation of Morgan Freeman in one of his more ludicrous roles.

    They’re just politicians, they won this round they might win the next one too but as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow they will eventually screw up and the Republicans will be back in power, take your head out of those ambrosial clouds you’re wandering in man!

    In 1983 they said the Labour party would never again be in power in the UK, in 2005 they said the Tories would never break out again from 20%, in both cases “demographics” was put forward as categorical proof of how things would never be the same again.

    Funny enough things quite rapidly go back to being the same again.

    Put down your “Evil Snake Worshipping Hateful White Christian Evangelicals Are Trying to Take Over the World!!!” books GF, they just make you look silly, enjoy the fact that your guy pulled it off this time but for the love of Mike don’t try to convince yourself that your guy will always win.

    It doesn’t happen that way my friend, trust me I’ve been there.

  • Qwerty

    There were of course no ‘witches’ in Northern Ireland at least up until Bernadette McAliskey (nee Devlin ) was elected back in the 70’s.

    You obviously weren’t paying close enough attention to the 2001 census religion question. There are witches in Northern Ireland and some of them even put it on the census form. Hell, there’s even a section in Waterstones of spell books for them it’s that popular.

    There are also bone fide Satanists, i.e. Theistic Satanists who actually worship the actual Devil, i.e. not just the Anton LaVey play acting stuff.

    Indeed the Royal Navy has recognised Satanism as a legitimate religion.
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article498640.ece

  • Highland Ken

    ‘I think it is very healthy for protestants and Christians ‘

    Are you suggesting that protestants are somehow separate from Christians ?

    It is the other way around of course.

  • Big Maggie

    Dammit, Greenflag, that’s the first and last time I’ll ever come to the defence of a Church. I mean it!

  • Big Maggie

    Dammit, Greenflag, that’s the first and last time I’ll come to the defence of a Church. I mean it!

  • Big Maggie

    Hmm, so that first post went after all. See what you get when you champion the cause of the antichrist :^)

  • Greenflag

    harry flashman ,

    ‘seriously do you believe that the US is about to become a one party state?

    You mean like Northern Ireland 1920 to 1972 ? Not at all . I said that the Republicans will find it a long haul back because of current demographic and age trends . The fact that the ECV system which worked for Bush in 2000 will from now on tend to favour democratic presidential candidates as it did in this election in Virginia , North Carolina , Florida and Indiana

    ‘but for goodness sake history hasn’t suddenly come to an end.’

    So Fukuyama got it wrong then 😉 ?

    A pity then that the neo conservatives believed him and that Republican administrations since 1980 have been following ‘false ‘ doctrine . The pied piper of the end of history indeed .

    ‘The Democrats are just a political party like any other, they are not the manifestation of heavenly virtue sent down from on high to rid the world of all things evil,’

    Did I say they were ? Try not to get so excited HF it’s not good for your health .

    It will be ‘interesting to see if the Republican Party actually holds together . Already there are rifts emerging between the Palin and McCain wings as they jockey to point the finger at who lost the 2008 election for the GOP . Perhaps they’ll agree it was neither’sfault and blame Joe the plumber ;)?

    I’m not stating that the Republicans can never return to having a majority in the Senate or House or win the Presidency but I think a comparison can be made today between the ‘loss’ of the South to the Democrats which LBJ admitted was the political price that would be paid for LBJ pushing through his Civil Rights Bill, and the situation in which the GOP finds itself .

    I said earlier this election would result in a paradigm shift within American politics and I’m sticking to that line .

  • Greenflag

    Big maggie ,

    ‘that’s the first and last time I’ll ever come to the defence of a Church. I mean it!’

    Did I persuade you then 😉 ?

    For those of genuine faith and those who find comfort in a belief in a higher being etc etc I have only a few words of advice .

    Always look for the pastor/priest /rabbi /ayatollah /minister etc with the personal touch but mind they don’t touch you for too much ( in the financial sense of course ). God’s purveyors on Earth are always in need of more ‘money ‘. Would you not think that the one who is rumoured to be above , would not send down some real money instead of the just once in a couple of millenia serving of manna or loaves and fishes ?

  • Greenflag

    Yqwerty ,

    ‘you obviously weren’t paying close enough attention to the 2001 census religion question.’

    Guilty as charged yer honour . It’s a matter of supreme indifference to GF which false God people choose to show allegiance to by making a mark on a census form .

    Those ‘satanists’ you refer to who worship the ‘actual’ devil sound interesting . Do you think you could get them to bring the ‘actual’ dual horned one to Dublin District Court to answer long standing charges on causing grievous physical , psychological and stressful harm on all males of the species ‘homo sapiens’ , by posing as a talking snake in the said Garden of Eden some time ago . And further to the above said Devil did knowingly and with aforethought malicious intent offering under false pretences worldly wisdom to a woman named Eve ( of all creatures) in exchange for a biting an apple ?

    Sounds like a con to me but then I’ve always been a pessimistic skeptic in matters religious , economic and political 😉

  • abucs

    Greenflag,

    Whether the American Democrats will go up, down or sideways from here will depend a lot on the Obama Presidency. I hope it’s a good Presidency but if it’s not there’ll be a lot of dissullusioned voters.
    …………….

    i wouldn’t seperate the Protestants from the Christians just as i wouldn’t seperate ‘the one rumoured to be above’ from what you might call ‘down here’. I don’t see it the way you do. Some of that money from the priest/minister/rabbi etc just might end up helping people both in Ireland and overseas with schooling, medical care, food and community building – present day manna from Heaven if you like. If you want God (sorry, the one rumoured to be above) to act here, then let him act through you – it’s your choice.

    My orginal comment was ‘Protestants and Christians generally’ like saying ‘football and sport generally’ – sorry if i created any confusion.

  • Harry Flashman

    I agree GF that there will be tectonic shifts in demographic voting patterns but don’t kid yourself that it will all be one way.

    New immigrants from Asia and other parts of the world outside of the Americas are not moving there in order to be part of a semi-socialised welfare state, Asians especially in America do not see their future in paying confiscatory high taxation on their successful lifestyle in order for it to be handed to certain ethnic groups who don’t particularly seem to share their work ethic, you know Asians and you know what I’m getting at.

    And the Hispanics, mostly located in the growing South West, imbued with right of centre social opinions, how long do you think they will stick with a NE “liberal white” party? (Remember Bush got 40% of the Hispanic vote in 2004). Blacks have now seen their boy get elected they see that success can be got in America if you work hard, they are already over represented in those right wing evangelical churches you are so terrified of, how long can the Dems rely on getting 95% of their votes, for eternity?

    And of course there’s the biggest minority of the lot, the whites, currently they split fairly evenly, if the Democrat party turns into the party of north eastern college liberals and ethnic minorities, will the ordinary whites always give them the 50% give or take that they currently rely on?

    You say that the Republicans are in some sort of ghetto, perhaps so, for now, there is no iron bound rulebook that says they can’t break out of that ghetto or that the Democrats in ten or so years time couldn’t just as easily find themselves restricted to the ghettos of college towns and welfare dependent inner cities.

    The Democrats won fair and square, they deserve their victory but if you think the Republican party, like the British conservative party, the most effective vote winning machine in history is simply going to sit moping around in self defeating lethargy on the sidelines for the rest of time then you don’t read your history books.

    Like I say, I’ve seen it all before, the tide comes in and then it goes out again, enjoy the next few years but don’t fool yourself; Morgan Freeman hasn’t waved his magic wand and made everything better.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    Regarding American politics, like everything nothing is set in stone. When ye see all those Red Republican conservative states of the Midwest today, it’s kinda hard to believe that there was once a strong American labour movement there among the farmers and ordinary working classes who were always likely to vote Democrat.

    The changing demographics of the United States will no doubt change the face of the Republican Party of the future!

  • Greenflag

    abucs,

    ‘sorry if I created any confusion’

    No need to . Anybody who tries to explain the semantic , esoteric , theological , ritualistic and all other differences real and imagined between protestants , christians , catholics , jews , moslems etc etc and expects not to create ‘confusion’ amongs those of us of a non religious bent is going to be disappointed .

  • Greenflag

    abucs,

    ‘sorry if I created any confusion’

    No need to. It’s inevitable in any thread that brings up ‘religion’ 🙁 . Anybody who tries to explain the semantic , esoteric , theological , ritualistic and all other differences real and imagined between protestants , christians , catholics , jews , moslems etc etc and expects not to create ‘confusion’ amongs those of us of a non religious bent is going to be disappointed .

    There will always be disillusioned voters . Look around you in NI and they don’t even have an Obama 😉

    Look around the world never mind the USA and see how many have been ‘disillusioned ‘ with the present USA administration in particular in it’s economic and foreign policy decisions .

    Obama would have to be a right eejit to beat Bush’s record . I just hope that he delivers for the American middle and lower income groups. And if he does that for the USA the rest of the world will follow .

  • Greenflag

    Moderator please delete No 14 above. Double posting .

  • Greenflag

    harry flashman ,

    ‘Morgan Freeman hasn’t waved his magic wand and made everything better. ‘

    I don’t recall mentioning the actor. As a skeptic of long standing I’m a non believer in magic wands or the words of the heaven magicians from the altars , pulpits or minarets.

    An intersesting little fact table in this weeks Economist showed a league table of those countries in which the income inequality gap has risen over the past few years . Some countries Spain , Ireland have shown a move towards greater income ‘equality ‘ Others like the USA , New Zealand , the UK , I forget the others show a trend towards greater income inequality .

    Behind that trend lies a good part of why the Republicans lost this election by 7 million votes a net change of 10 million votes since 2004 .

    As for the next ‘few ‘ years ? I agree the next 12 years should be long enough for the Republicans to make the transition from ultra right wing nut job war mongering born again spend thrifts to centrist sensible fiscal conservatives .

  • Greenflag

    harry flashman,

    Here’s another shift that’s happening somewhat faster than the tectonic variety 😉

  • Greenflag

    harry flashman,

    Here’s another shift that’s happening somewhat faster than the tectonic variety and it’s worldwide 😉

  • Pete Baker

    Greenie

    Have you looked in the mirror recently? ;o)

    The conversation seems to have drifted somewhat off the actual topic..

  • Greenflag

    harry flashman,

    Here’s another shift that’s happening somewhat faster than the tectonic variety and it’s worldwide 😉 You could call it the ‘exponential ‘ shift of our times

    And here’s the latest update which will probably be out of date by the time you look at it 😉

  • Harry Flashman

    GF, is there anything in that video that should worry the declining birth rate, dumbed down and rapidly descending into a third world ghetto Europeans more than it should worry Americans?

    I absolutely grant you that China will be one of the big powers in a few years time, however I think the people of sclerotic welfarist Europe should probably be more concerned than the US, which if nothing else this week has shown a marked capacity to adopt to changing circumstances, something which Europe has proven singularly incapable of doing in the past half century.

    But that is an aside, I’ve seen this all before GF, it’s new and exciting to you, just as my father was convinced by Sputnik and Kruschev telling the Yanks that the Soviet Union would bury the US and I was certain that vibrant young Japan would soon take over the United States so you are wetting yourself that the Chinese will soon be the great dominant world power.

    Maybe they will, maybe they won’t, tell me how’s Kruschev’s Soviet Empire looking these days? Is Japan still the dynamic young thrusting power that back in the 1980’s would soon be ruling the world? And the EU, it’s the economic powerhouse of the world that we were told was the next coming thing in the 1990’s, isn’t it?

    Yup, China, the new colossus, no doubt about it, I mean it’s not like the world hasn’t been waiting for the dawning of the “Chinese Century” for the best part of six thousand years now is it?

  • Greenflag

    Pete,

    You’re gettin slow oh stargazing one 😉 . Beat you to it a day or so ago with a cut and paste from the Onion 😉 Can’t recall the thread . But the gist was that the black folks always get it in the neck from the honkies even if or especially if they make it to President.

    Dem whiteeys have damned destroyed the country , messed up the economy , screwed up the entire world and now they have to call on a black man to fix up their messin 😉 Plus ca change .

  • Greenflag

    harry flashman .

    ‘it’s new and exciting to you’

    You don’t know your greenflag -harry .

    I get as excited as grass does when it grows 😉 I’m a numbers and facts fan and I delight in seeing knowledge being disseminated worldwide . Evolution is speeding up obviously too fast for some of us .

    ‘however I think the people of sclerotic welfarist Europe should probably be more concerned than the US’

    Which part of Europe would that be ? Socialist Sweden or semi Socialist Ireland or Centre right Germany ?

    You do recall it was your neo condervative ultra right wing free marketeering free traders who have been one the main driving forces in propelling the Chinese to longer term economic supremacy while ‘allowing ‘ them to enjoy one party totalitarian communist party rule ?

    Talk about the hand that gets bitten by the dog that feeds it doesn’t even come close ?. More a case of corporate ‘greed ‘ being oblivious in the final analysis to anything other than the bottom line . And as those are the rules of the neo conservative game in the USA or at least were until they recently changed to ‘socialism ‘ to help Wall St from complete collapse -who can complain eh ?

    With General Motors now bleeding at the rate of one billion dollars a month with 9 months to bankruptcy if there is no change we can expect to see American motor manufacturers ‘nationalised ‘.

    Could this be evidence of a newly sclerotic USA or is it just a case of the greedy SUV makers getting their just desserts ?

    As for ‘wetting myself ‘ I’ll leave the xenophobia /sinophobia to your good self . It’ll take your mind of all that really important 1690, 1859 and 1969 rubbish eh ;)?

  • Harry Flashman

    I always know I’ve scored a few direct hits with you Greenie when you utterly fail to address the points I raise and instead mention things that have no relevance whatsoever and throw a whole heap of personal and irrelevant abuse my way (I’ve no doubt the next couple of meaningless posts will be addressed to “Hairy Fleshman” and “Mr Flushy” going by your usual juvenile past form).

    It’s good to know I can still whack you out of the park Greenie my boy, President Obama or no President Obama you’re still not even in the same league as me, old Harry Flashman will teach you how to debate yet, it’s going to be an enjoyable four years after all, I may even enjoy it.

  • Greenflag

    harmony fratman,

    ‘it’s going to be an enjoyable four years after all, I may even enjoy it.

    Give yourself 12 . By year 11 the penny may finally drop 😉 about the ‘shift ‘ I mean .

    An Ode to HF (that notorious hippopotamus of erroneous electoral futurising) and Premier League Debater extraordinaire and Greenflag basher of distinction 😉

    Have you heard of one Flasher Hairy
    How he fell with a roll and a rumble
    And curled up like Lord Olofa Crumple
    By the butt of the Magazine Wall

    (Chorus) Of the Magazine Wall,
    Hump, helmet and all?

    He was one time our King of political predictors
    Now he’s kicked about like a rotten old parsnip.
    And from Slugger he’ll be sent by order of His Worship Greenflag
    To the penal jail of Mountjoy

    (Chorus) To the jail of Mountjoy!
    Jail him with Joy.

    (Joy btw is not that good looking mot down at Tesco’s)

    He was fafafather of all schemes for to bother us
    Right wing politics and immaculate neo conservatism for the populace,
    Shag all for the sick, seven dry Sundays a week,
    EU sclerosis for all and Pentecostalist religious rapture reborn, give them the horn

    (Chorus) And Pentecostalist religious rapture reborn,
    Hideous in form. Give them the horn

    Then we’ll have a neo con free trade Gael’s band and mass Libertas meeting
    For to sod Flashheart Harry that brave son of Neoconknavery.
    And we’ll bury him down in Oxmanstown
    Along with the dupers devil and the Danes,

    (Chorus) With the deaf and dumb Danes,
    And all their remains.

    And not all the Queens’s men nor her horses
    Will resurrect his corpus mortis
    For there’s no true spell in Stormont or hell
    That’s able to raise pain
    like our flasher harry when he’s on his game :).

    With apologies to Uncle Jimmy for a little paraphrasing of the Ballad of Persse O’Reilly

    Enjoy the week end Harry and don’t worry the pain will pass .

  • Harry Flashman

    I said at 3.34:

    “You…throw a whole heap of personal and irrelevant abuse my way(I’ve no doubt the next couple of meaningless posts will be addressed to “Hairy Fleshman” and “Mr Flushy” going by your usual juvenile past form).”

    Not two hours later Greenie’s measured and mature response is;

    “HF (that notorious hippopotamus…)”

    “Have you heard of one Flasher Hairy…”

    “For to sod Flashheart Harry…”

    Way to prove me wrong GF old son! Did you start the drinking a bit early yesterday Greenie?

  • Greenflag

    harry flashman ,

    You asked for it- you got it. And you still complain 😉 ?

  • Harry Flashman

    You know GF, I think you’re a bit of a schizophrenic, or else you just drink too much, one moment you’re the serious young soul hashing through your facts and figures then the next you’re like a strange bar room boor howling out insults and ranting at the moon.

    Do you have an evil twin you don’t know about?

  • Greenflag

    Hardly Flashy ,

    ‘Do you have an evil twin you don’t know about? ‘

    Naw – but I found yours . Here he’s gettin some help with his numbers and facts . You may benefit from taking part in the lesson 🙂

    Lighten up oul son or ye’ll end up being banjaxed outta sight by the ‘other’ one of us 🙂