Unity on one thing only – to oppose abortion

We have Jeffrey Donaldson to thank for inspiring the Sun’s rubbishy news story on the embryology research Bill which passed the Commons last night.

“Democratic Unionist MP Jeffrey Donaldson conjured up the spectre of a monster from Greek legend, saying: “The image that people find most abhorrent is of scientists producing GM babies or cloned adults or minotaurs.”

This takes us back to the “hobgoblins and foul fiends” of John Bunyan in the seventeenth century, the ideal period for many of our elected representatives.
Aye thon Bunyan was right! With unconscious irony Jeffrey then gravely told MPs that abortion was such a sensitive matter in Northern Ireland that it would be better left to the Assembly!
From Hansard:

“I know that hon. Members will have received a letter from the leaders of the four main parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly. The letter was written by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson), who is my party leader, the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Adams), the leader of Sinn Fein, the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), the leader of the Social Democratic and Labour party, and Sir Reg Empey, the leader of the Ulster Unionist party. Between them, those four parties represent more than 90 per cent. of…. ” etc.etc.etc.

The electorate in Northern Ireland, and have more than 100 seats in the Northern Ireland Assembly. That makes it clear that this sensitive matter should be dealt with by the Assembly and not by this Parliament.”

What an impressive show of unity. When is is going to be applied to something useful? This day will be remembered as the one when the elected representatives of Northern Ireland could unite only on one thing – to oppose abortion.

It’s now reported, though from the “pro-life” side that “a view has emerged on all side of the debate that a dedicated abortion bill would be the appropriate means of changing the law in such a controversial area.” This is now possible but not, I guess until after the general election , so “ the “pro-life” campaigners will doubtless be delighted.

The way ahead probably lies in legal challenges which are likely to compel the NI Assembly eventually to pass a law prescribing the circumstances in which abortion may take place, however limited, monitoring what happens and at the very least, offering specific help to approved abortion cases to have them in GB. Almost certainly “guidelines” as drafted are not enough to satisfy Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights on the rights of the women concerned. By the way, where is the final version of the guidelines?

Meanwhile on the main subject of embryo research it was fear, fear all the way and no sense of opportunity for the medical breakthroughs stem cell research can achieve. Mark Durkan was still worried about human cloning, the primitive minotaur fixation.

“Is it wrong for the House to ensure that in superseding those provisions we ensure that there is no room for genetically modified children to be created? That is entirely reasonable. We are told that that is not the intention and that nobody wants to do it, so what is wrong with ensuring that such an action is clearly provided against in the Bill? “

Personally I would be all for “genetically modified children ” without cystic fibrosis, leukemia etc.

The best that can come out of this sorry parliamentary saga is that exposure to the complex issues of fast changing genetic research may have encouraged our MPs to think more deeply about them and consider the thousands who need help as well as hug their own opinions.

Meanwhile women voters of Northern Ireland, remember this day!

  • ??

    Personally I would be all for “genetically modified children “ without cystic fibrosis, leukemia etc. ………..

    didnt the germans want the same thing? a sort of master race? lets get some more kiddies on the experiment table unitl we get it right, after all the ends justify the means

  • DC

    Typical Northern Ireland, one side offering patronising compassion, the other side offering fake charity re concerns for the unborn.

    Whereas what’s missing is a genuine understanding of those grey areas and the need for choice in those circumstances.

    All in all patronisingly misplaced Christian Democracy that keeps up the sectional interests that is actually the mainstream of political life in NI.

    Choice, yeah right do as ‘we’ say.

  • Brian Walker

    I’ll take this at face value. No, there’s no comparison. Nazi eugenicists believed in the demented possibility of a master race and culled people as well as as late embryos by the thousand. Today’s research is a highly regulated accountable activity. I recommend you browse in the HFEA website. ” Genetically modified children” which I put in quotes because it was quoted is a loaded term. It is not the children who are modified but the genes. Choice of sex and eye colour and so on will no doubt be possible one day but a complete ban is certain and enforceable. Genetics is a huge and fast-moving subject to take in but it cannot just be fearfully ignored. It has so much to offer. Admittedly if you still believe in a contraceptive ban, it will be difficult for you to grasp.

  • “The image that people find most abhorrent is of scientists producing GM babies or cloned adults or minotaurs.” [Jeffrey Donaldson]

    What an uneducated prat. He meant centaurs, of course.

  • Padraig Caughey

    [b]’Today’s research is a highly regulated accountable activity.'[/b]

    In places like China say, or North Korea; is it , I mean really…and how do you know this?

  • Duncan Shipley Dalton

    Not to be pedantic but wasn’t there only one Minotaur? Besides Pasiphaë managed to produce that one without any genetic modification.

  • Rory

    …and if there’s anybody who knows a thing or two about centaurs it’s got to be Horseman.

    I can’t help but think that the man/animal hybrids envisaged by Donaldson and the pictorial representation of that imagery in The Sun are bound to inspire a flurry of activity on porn sites searching for exotic human/animal couplings. But not from Christians of course.

    It looks like any extension of a woman’s rights over her own body to the women of N. Ireland will fall this time. But it is only a matter of time and progressives will win through in the end.

  • Harry Flashman

    I am always stunned by the sort of people who will fly into an apoplectic rage against “genetically modified” tomatoes but who look with utter indifference at, nay positively welcome, the idea of genetically modifying babies.

    Aldous Huxley didn’t know the half of it.

  • Horseman, Jeffrey was talking half-man half-bull – though some may disagree about the proportions …

  • Whinging Pommes and their genetically modified apples, Harry.

  • Danny Boy

    I’d like to agree with Rory that it’s ‘only a matter of time’, but how much? With the matter left to our Assembly, which has been so effective in dealing with ‘sensitive’ issues in the past, has such concern for gender equality and is so focused on delivering proper government for all the people of Northern Ireland, we’re looking at a couple of generations at least. Not to mention the probability that the future UK government will be Tories even more pally with the DUP than the current lot. It’s likely to take a shift in our whole political system, whether through radical restructuring or a dramatic evolution in people’s voting habits, before there is any hope of reproductive rights even being debated in a grown-up way. This is depressing enough in itself, but what does it mean for all the other ‘sensitive’ issues?

    (Hums ‘Why are we waiting, we are suffocating, why are we waiting, why, why, why?’)

  • Ann

    Meanwhile women voters of Northern Ireland, remember this day!

    Hip Hip Horrayyyyyyy!!!!!

    Keep abortion out!

    Who is this labour MP anyway that she thinks she speaks for us when we have our own representatives, who for once have done the right thing.

  • Dave

    Give it another few decades and the rich will use their wealth to purchase designer babies to match their designer handbags, with the poor becoming a genetically inferior underclass, interbreeding with other sickly types and becoming an ever-increasing burden on the health service – which, of course, the disease-free rich will see as a pointless drain of their finances just to sustain a genetically inferior race. And just because it is a ‘slippery slope’ argument doesn’t mean that it won’t come to pass. You – the ‘sovereign’ people – will have as much power to prevent it as you had to prevent this. 😉

  • Dr. Mephisto

    Dear God people! Someone might create a Cartman

  • Rory

    Nevin,

    I think Horseman is aware of what a minotaur is – a bull-headed creature. I suppose since Donaldson has been surrounding himself with such creatures all his political life it is not unexpected that he might be wary of them.

  • You unionists are at times something else, your given the chance to set up your own administration and all that is asked is you work on equal terms with your nationalist/catholic neighbors, but when they understandably demand equality of ministries, some of you run to nanny Brit and demand that she continues to govern.

    Yet you still refuse to abide by the laws and social norms that are acceptable to the people who live in the ‘rest’ of the United Kingdom you claim to love so highly.

    The fact that the women in the north, unlike elsewhere do not have the right to choose what to do with their own bodies is an outrage.

    The fact that the woman of the north had no say in this, is a democratic outrage. That the DUP traded off the democratic rights of the women of the north for a grubby deal over 42 days detention is pathetic, but is par for the course as far as unionist men are concerned, the majority of whom, go about their political business, making the decision in smoke filed rooms.

    For despite all their huffing about democracy, when it comes to to it, that is how unionist politics is practiced.

    Elitist, fearful and reactionary.

  • Mark

    Specific to cystic fiborsis, it is already possible for both potential parents to be screened to see if they are a carrier for cystic fibrosis. My wife and I were both screened at belfast City Hospital for this as there is a history of the disease in my family.

    In the event that both parents are carriers then they can submit to a form of IVF that will ensure that neither the egg nor the sperm carry the CF gene, meaning that there is no possibility that the child will be born with CF. No doubt some wothwhile contributor can tell me why the Bible says this is a bad thing, but they’ll have a long way to go to convince me of their viewpoint.

    As for Padraig Caughey’s comment regarding China and North Korea…what exactly does that have to do with UK law? Are you suggesting that these countries would somehow feel compelled to obey legislation passed here?

  • Reader

    Mick Hall: That the DUP traded off the democratic rights of the women of the north for a grubby deal over 42 days detention is pathetic, but is par for the course as far as unionist men are concerned, the majority of whom, go about their political business, making the decision in smoke filed rooms.
    Looks like the other parties would have traded those same rights away for nothing at all. And, since a 4 party consensus on this issue was always on the cards, maybe that is *exactly* what did happen; i.e. Nu-lab decided this was going to be a devolved issue. The Green part of you must approve, surely?
    And since all 4 parties were in on it, and all 4 parties were elected by both men an women, there’s no point in blaming just *unionist* *men*. Why not just blame ‘The Irish’ (united at last…)?
    I’m pro-choice myself, by the way.

  • Don’t know if “Ann” really exists since her email address is anon@hotmail.com, so sounds like a troll to me. However, since she seems to be the only woman (before me) replying to Brian’s injunction to NI women to remember yesterday, it’s worth responding to her

    “Meanwhile women voters of Northern Ireland, remember this day!

    Hip Hip Horrayyyyyyy!!!!!

    Keep abortion out!”

    It’s far too late to keep abortion out of the North of Ireland. Some 40 women a week leave here to travel to England and the continent seeking abortions. Since 1967, about 70,000 women from here have had abortions in Britain alone. Since research suggests that each involves, on average, 5 other people in their decision/getting the money together, that’s a lot of people from a population of 1.7m.

    Again, the only issue about abortion rights in NI are whether they should be available only to those who have the money to travel and pay for a private operation or whether less well-off women should also be able to end intolerable pregnancies.

  • Dave

    So, Mick Hall, socialist in residence, what are your thoughts about an elite social class using its wealth to become an elite race?

  • Harry Flashman

    Goretti, a wee word of advice, one surefire way to lose an argument before you even start is to claim that someone who happens to disagree with you is a “troll”.

    Try playing the ball not the (wo)man, that’s how we like things here on Slugger.

  • Long John Silver

    I think Chekov’s comment is well out of order.

  • On this issue alone most of NI political parties are shown to be lacking in younger female(or older either for that matter)participation.
    It would be expected that younger females would at least have a diversity of opinion.I have not heard much comment from any young female party members.Do the males in NI have so much control over the female body that they have rendered female tongues frozen on the subject.
    In most parts of the world women would make sure their voice was heard.Thats whether you like it or not and I don’t always but the rest of the modern world makes sure that womens point of view is at least heard.

  • reader,

    Your correct in that all four party’s in the north appear to have acquiesced with the deal the DUP made with Brown not to extend the right to an abortion to the north, I said as much on my blog last Tuesday, If you care to take a look you will see, like your good-self, I to was outraged that the only thing the parties seem able to agree on was to refuse to extend the right to choose to the north.

    The funny thing is I have not always been pro choice and still feel very uncomfortable with abortion.
    Then one day my wife, daughter and granddaughter sat me down and pointed out a few home truths, such as we do not live in a perfect world, men do not have to be pregnant for 9 months or give birth, nor if the father does a bunk do they have to bring up the child to adulthood.

    Because of the aforementioned and a number of other points which were raised, imo this is one of the few issues which demands a woman has the final say, in other words the right to choose, the only role men [beyond the immediate couple involved] should play in a civilized society is to create the means to allow them to do so legally.

    http://www.organizedrage.com/2008/10/northern-irelands-working-class-women.html

    Dave

    I understand why you raise this issue with me, and any other time I would give my two penny worth, for what it is worth. But I feel to do so at this time would simply divert the debate away from a woman’s right to choose. Perhaps we may be able to return to the points you raise at a later date.

    Best regards to you both

  • Ann

    Well goretti if you’d blog on slugger and not only on abortion threads you’d know I’m not a troll, my e mail is private. Problem with me not spreading my e mail about? I don’t. Would I be a troll if I agreed with abortion? Probably not ! You’ve said nothing new, heard it all before, and frankly I’m glad this attempt at legalising abortion in NI has failed.

    Sounds like someone did the wrong thing when they decided to keep you.

    I was going to say, when argument fails play the man (or woman), or should I be surprised that that is your debating level? Probably not, but instead of engaging with you I’ll say. DITTO.

  • Ann

    Brian Walker You asked for people to blog under their own name, you asked for more women, mick fealty tries to encourage more women, and when we do, you allow comments like chekov’s to remain on this blog.

    It’s a disgrace that a long standing blogger like me, who now posts under my own name, here before you ever heard of slugger, should be insulted by chekov as I’ve been here simply because I do not want to kill the unborn, and disagree with the mostly male view point.

    Either have the back bone as a man and remove the comment as is commenting policy, or I shall refer it to mick fealty, that you are allowing such comments to remain, in breach of his rules.

    How come its one rule for chekov and one rule for the rest of us?

    At first I thought you were a change, a different blogger sorry but I’ve been disappointed.

  • pith

    The minotaur was only partly bull. Jeffrey is full of it.

  • Ann

    I think its disgraceful that inspite of an e mail to Brian Walker, this comment has not been removed.

    Does he post up and then go off and leave his posts all day without moderation, knowing full well the sort of comments that can be left here? Is this how he moderates, and where is mick fealty to uphold his own rules…

  • I expect the comment will be removed, but it’s funny how pro-choicers here get accused of being baby-killing whores (most recently implied by Ann on the previous thread), are told we are murderers, get sent graphic images and personal threats if we make our email addresses visible and then get told to stop whinging if we complain, but a ‘pro-lifer’ gets offended (though still manages to hurl the same insult right back) and all of a sudden it’s a ‘disgrace’. Ann, if the rules were to be upheld, they’d have to remove half of your posts too because you certainly don’t do much ball-playing. So are you going to stop whinging or just keep stamping your foot (i.e. spamming/trolling this thread) until you get your way?

  • Ann

    Can you point out where I did this

    being baby-killing whores (most recently implied by Ann on the previous thread), are told we are murderers, get sent graphic images and personal threats if we make our email addresses visible and then get told to stop whinging if we complain, but a ‘pro-lifer’ gets offended (though still manages to hurl the same insult right back) and all of a sudden it’s a ‘disgrace’.

    I merely call abortion what it is ie the murder of the unborn, now show me where I called a woman the name you use, or sent abuse to anyone.

    The fact is being a minority of one, on a pro abortion site will not silence me. Abuse will. I argue my point very civilly, and have never been carded on slugger since my time here, around six years. I try to be polite, as much as I can, but I wil not tolerate chekovs comment.

    You give out your e mail your choice, I don’t I get called a troll.

    You have your opinion and I’ve mine regarding abortion, I believe it to be a doing away with the unborn, that is my belief, I will not suffer abuse for it, not from men who think its smart to abuse a woman. If you agree with abuse you don’t belong here.

  • A couple of your recent comments –

    Well Brian when was the last time you’d your period? The way you are harping on about this anyone could think your hormones were all over the place.

    Brian did not remove this comment, though under Slugger rules would have been perfectly entitled to do so.

    ***

    How did a single mother on benefits get pregnant? Isn’t that a breach of the benefit rules, that you cannot live with a partner if you are claiming to be a single parent.

    Or was it a one night stand?

    But she’s depressed isn’t she, can she afford to go out and socialise?

    Pretty easy to read between the lines here, and I’m not the only poster to call you on this comment.

    Wouldn’t take much effort to find more examples, but I don’t really fancy trawling through your nonsense – it’s painful enough to read once.

    Also, Slugger has never been pro-abortion – quite the opposite in fact, which you really ought to know if you’ve been around for so long. But it’s ironic that you talk about being a minority given that you find it perfectly acceptable to enforce pregnancy on the minority of women who can’t afford to go to England for abortions.

    You’re certainly allowed to have your opinion about abortion, but you can’t possibly expect to be taken seriously when all you do is rant incoherently about murder and then moan relentlessly when someone pisses you off. Grow up, you ridiculous woman.

  • Ann

    It wasn’t all that long ago you were on here boo hoo ing yourself joanne, crying about getting abusive e mails, which I doubt you got in the first place, but whether you did or not you moaned about it for quite a while, so when I complain its oh dear I’m a ridiculous woman. Thats not abuse is it?

    Fact is fact, if the woman is a single parent and gets pregnant is she not breaching the benefit rules, one would think so. I commented on an article, full stop.

    Did she have a one night stand? Is she living with a partner, how else does a single mother claiming single parent benefit get pregnant?

    You tell me.

    As for the comment to Brian – that was a tongue in cheek joke, perhaps that is why he didn’t object, if he does object allhe has to do is say, which is what I’m doing. Objecting to abuse. Unless he objects how is one to know. Where as Chekov’s comment was directed at me, and is in breach of the rules.

    Ridiculous or not, I object to that particular abuse, which is what you did you ridiculous woman even though your abuse did NOT in any way come from this site. Which is a pretty important fact you omitted isn’t it?a

  • Ann

    But then maybe you know Brian? Didn’t he pick out your comment as an example to all women, ahh I mean pro choice women, which is all that is wanted on this site it appears.

    Okay, I admit it. I’m a woman. But part of the reason I am reluctant to ‘fess up is because I have had a certain amount of bile in the past over it as well as condescending tones in many posts. The blogosphere is not gender-neutral. I think you’ll find that everywhere, not just in our little corner of the world.

    Brians little helper, now that explains it!

  • Ann

    Hows this fr a whinge joanne, and spamming a thread, the thread this was posted in turned out to be all about you and nothing else, what a cheek you have.

    I’m female, have never used a pseudonym on Slugger, but rarely participate simply because any thread I’ve ever read here that has been about ‘women’s issues’ has been completely taken over by men who are deeply misogynistic and have absolutely no intention of engaging in any real debate or of being willing to stand back and actually let women be heard.

    Several years ago I wrote an abortion article which was posted on Slugger and I received a significant amount of abuse in the comments as well as on my blog, and ‘dead baby’ pictures and threats to my personal email address. I find it to be a scarily accurate reflection of Northern Irish men in general…although it is somewhat more liberal these days.

    Thanks for this post though – at least Women on Web are an organisation I can donate to without feeling like my money will be wasted.
    Posted by joanne on Jul 11, 2008 @ 06:07 PM

    Did you stop stamping your foot, NO you did not. What if I’d told you to grow up, you’d still be moaning.

    I object to the abuse hurled my way, and would like it removed!!

  • Ann

    What if one of the men you objected to had said to you what chekov said to me, would that be ok then?

    I shouldn’t have to go on about it, nor should you have, they ought to have been removed by a mod.

  • Aw, is that the best you can do? One post? Whereas you’ve been trolling this entire thread, and every other recent thread on abortion endlessly…

    Thanks for digging out that post though, you saved me the hassle – as I wrote then, the emails I received started after an article I wrote several years ago was posted on Slugger. They don’t bother me now – I run a pro-choice blog, I’m quite used to getting them! I’d be happy to forward some recent examples to you since you find it so difficult to believe.

    As I’m not a mother and don’t claim benefits, I wouldn’t know the rules you’re referring to, but I’m fairly certain the government can’t actually ban single mothers claiming benefits from having sex. Though I’m sure ours would have a jolly good try.

    I think I understand you a little better now Ann – when you abuse people you’re just ‘stating your opinion’, when everyone else states their opinion, it’s abuse. Get off on being the victim, eh?

  • “But it’s ironic that you talk about being a minority given that you find it perfectly acceptable to enforce pregnancy on the minority of women who can’t afford to go to England for abortions.”

    Joanne, is it just me or does this read like Ann is impregnating women – how else can we enforce pregnancy on people?

    This type of manipulative and distorting language is one of the problems with this debate, and does neither side any credit.

  • Ann

    Joanne, is it just me or does this read like Ann is impregnating women – how else can we enforce pregnancy on people?

    Shes ranting again. Sometimes it becomes incoherent….

    Pro choicers they can’t take another view point, all they can do is try to shut us up, if not with bleeding heart stories with whinges, if that doesn’t work its abuse.

    I think we understand you a little better joanne, firstly you are not a mother so talking on pregnancy and abortion may be a little mature debate for you hence you objecting to one person boo hooing, while engaging in it your self. Your lack of maturity is astounding.

    One would assume that a woman telling the world in newspaper that she was depressed and had no money and was a single parent on benefits and had no money you’d object to that sort of boo hoo ing too, or is it only pro life boo hoo ing you object too? Why of course it is.

    If you’ve become some sort of pin up girl for pro choice thats fine, you plaster your e mail all over the net and get abuse for doing so and then tell the world boohoo i got abusive e mails. Think computer security, think your own actions, and think due to lack of care any one not just pro choice people that plasters an email all over the web may get spam or abuse. But then they all don’t come to slugger and boo hoo about it do they? Did you boo hoo on your site too. LOL LOL

  • Garibaldy – *shrug* It may or may not be just you, but the fact is that if you want abortion to be illegal, you are automatically in favour of enforced pregnancy. There will always be women who, regardless of what support systems are in place, will want to end their pregnancies. For them to be unable to do so means going through pregnancy against their will. How is that confusing?

    Ann – I’m bored of you now, but for what it’s worth, yes, I do think that comment was out of line and should be removed. Your petulant demands that it happen immediately, however, are rather over the top. Do you think moderators patrol each and every thread 24/7, ready to respond the instant you complain?

  • Ann

    Get off on being the victim, eh?

    no, I’ll leave that to the bleedin heart single parent whose details are splattered all over the web and press as a bleedin heart story for abortion, or to you about e mails due to your own lack of computer security.

  • boo hoo boo hoo LOL LOL

    Yeah, I’m definitely the immature one here. G’night, you nutter. 🙂

  • Ann

    Ann – I’m bored of you now, but for what it’s worth, yes, I do think that comment was out of line and should be removed. Your petulant demands that it happen immediately, however, are rather over the top. Do you think moderators patrol each and every thread 24/7, ready to respond the instant you complain?

    I’ve been bored with you for quite some time, but I defend my comments, and I think you write rules for your site and sluggerites are content to abide by the rules on slugger, unless they are muddled up in your own mind of course.

  • Ann

    Yeah, I’m definitely the immature one here. G’night, you nutter. 🙂

    You’re not behind the door n giving out the abuse either are you joanne, but then I’d rather be mad than bad, which is why I’ll never support the unborn being flushed down the toilet. Unlike…

  • Brian Walker

    I’ve just logged in… this is getting overheated and ad feminam. chekov ( an ill-named pseudonym) your comment about ann was discourteous and unmanly and a noxious reply to stridency. Please don’t raise the temperature further and risk a red card.

    When we think of all the criticism Slugger dishes out to them, MLAs who see this must be hugging themselves with glee – something about black pots and kettles..

    For the sake of Slugger could we move on from the ya boo fundamentalism and distorting language to where we might go from here and raise the level?

  • I would interpret enforced pregnancy as pregnancy caused by rape that ends in pregnancy. Most people who have abortions are people who had sex voluntarily. I fail to see how other people are responsible for the pregancy that results. I also don’t see how that view is incompatible with either position on this debate.

  • Ann

    I have received your e mail Brian. and await micks resolution of the matter.

  • Mick Fealty

    Right,

    Comment has now been removed. The tardiness is my fault I fear. I’ve been off site for most of the day and then foolishly took the evening off to catch up with the world beyond Slugger.

    Can I also say that if people cannot post passionately here without getting personal, I suggest they take their animus out for a walk round the park and bring it back when it’s sitting nice and quietly the corner. Otherwise red will follow yellow pretty promptly: whatever your gender!!

    Now can we have some proper engagement with the issues at hand? Of which there appear to be several.

  • Harry Flashman

    Mick you know we don’t permit you to have a life outside Slugger, you must be at our call 24 hours a day to settle our “he said she said”, “he started it”, “no I didn’t” rows.

    I’d join in this particular debate but everyone seems to have it well sewn up and I doubt I’d have much to add (particularly as Garibaldy has already dealt with the ludicrous “enforced pregnancy” business).

  • Dave

    “I understand why you raise this issue with me, and any other time I would give my two penny worth, for what it is worth. But I feel to do so at this time would simply divert the debate away from a woman’s right to choose. Perhaps we may be able to return to the points you raise at a later date.” – Mick Hall

    No problem. However, there is no “right to choose” beyond it meaning a self-serving invention of a gender movement. Where I take issue with the relevant UN document is that it bows to political pressure and fails to include the right to life of the unborn in its list of rights, thereby rendering the entire document devoid of any meaningful moral authority. Incidently, the only reason it was incorporated into Irish law through the ECHR Act 2003 is because that was an outstanding requirement under the GFA. That said, all an Irish court can is make a declaration of incompatibility if it finds that any article of it is in conflict with Irish law. Irish law remains sovereign.

  • Sam Graham

    “The funny thing is I have not always been pro choice and still feel very uncomfortable with abortion. Then one day my wife, daughter and granddaughter sat me down and pointed out a few home truths, such as we do not live in a perfect world, men do not have to be pregnant for 9 months or give birth, nor if the father does a bunk do they have to bring up the child to adulthood.”

    With this logic, why do we not give any parent the right to kill their child any time up to the age of 18? After all, it is the parent’s rights to live as affluent and comfortable a lifestyle as possible.

    The point of decision is at conception! If you dont want the responsibility contraceptives are available widely! Abortion is the choice of the selfish and self-indulgent society – PERIOD

    Ripping a baby to death in womb by tearing it from limb to limb is not an advancement of civilization! So much for evolution……

  • pith

    If Jeffrey is all worried about those minotaur lads, I wonder what he thinks of the trolls.

  • hold my hand